2025/09/11

2025-09-11 00:00:09 +0200 <biberao> sm i dont?
2025-09-11 00:00:13 +0200 <biberao> to install ghcup»
2025-09-11 00:00:15 +0200 <biberao> ?
2025-09-11 00:00:20 +0200 <biberao> i was advise to do that
2025-09-11 00:00:30 +0200 <biberao> how do i now use ghcup with vscode?
2025-09-11 00:00:43 +0200 <biberao> do i need to install vscode on wsl?
2025-09-11 00:02:57 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> ah yes, it looks like you maybe do need wsl to make ghcup run on windows. I would just use stack personally.
2025-09-11 00:03:29 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> I'm pretty sure vscode does not require wsl. ghcup is the only tool that needs it.
2025-09-11 00:03:57 +0200 <geekosaur> uh? ghcup was fixed for windows some time back, including `ghcup tui`. it even has a PowerShell invocation to download and run it initially
2025-09-11 00:04:18 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> that's what I thought too. I'm just looking at the options at https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/#
2025-09-11 00:04:38 +0200 <geekosaur> Click "show all platforms"
2025-09-11 00:04:39 +0200 <biberao> oh so i dont need wsl then?
2025-09-11 00:04:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-09-11 00:04:50 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> ah, you have to click Show all platforms. page needs an update maybe, maerwald
2025-09-11 00:05:17 +0200 <biberao> so ill remove wsl
2025-09-11 00:05:43 +0200 <biberao> i dont see that
2025-09-11 00:05:48 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Quit: ljdarj)
2025-09-11 00:05:48 +0200jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) jreicher
2025-09-11 00:05:49 +0200 <biberao> show all platforms
2025-09-11 00:06:21 +0200 <biberao> can you link please?
2025-09-11 00:07:09 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-09-11 00:07:36 +0200 <biberao> do i need to install msys2?
2025-09-11 00:07:43 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/matrix.org/iLBLcdfMQQpypjSGmPcQVjqa/tTWuaB_EmLU/Screenshot%2…
2025-09-11 00:08:06 +0200 <geekosaur> it's in small text (and hard to see against the background) right under the Linux/POSIX/WSL2 instruction box
2025-09-11 00:08:40 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> biberao maybe.. what makes you ask that ?
2025-09-11 00:09:07 +0200 <biberao> i was asking the place
2025-09-11 00:09:28 +0200 <geekosaur> ghc installs msys2 itself since it needs a specific non-default msys2 toolchain
2025-09-11 00:10:06 +0200 <biberao> s i do the curl and then do that command?
2025-09-11 00:10:36 +0200 <geekosaur> if you're using the windows instructions there should be a PowerShell invocation
2025-09-11 00:10:40 +0200 <biberao> ok
2025-09-11 00:10:42 +0200 <biberao> thanks
2025-09-11 00:10:46 +0200 <geekosaur> you won't have curl unless you are using wsl2
2025-09-11 00:10:54 +0200 <biberao> oh i didnt see the url embedded sorry
2025-09-11 00:11:03 +0200 <biberao> thank you
2025-09-11 00:11:05 +0200 <biberao> !
2025-09-11 00:11:10 +0200 <biberao> ill remove wsl2 i dont need ikt
2025-09-11 00:12:03 +0200 <biberao> thank you very much
2025-09-11 00:12:17 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> no problem
2025-09-11 00:15:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 00:16:02 +0200Taneb(~Taneb@ip87-106-35-210.pbiaas.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-09-11 00:20:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2025-09-11 00:26:40 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) Lycurgus
2025-09-11 00:31:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 00:36:52 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2025-09-11 00:47:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 00:49:24 +0200trickard_trickard
2025-09-11 00:50:40 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2025-09-11 00:52:33 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-09-11 00:53:44 +0200 <monochrom> Belated: I will design a CPU such that every program is "one" instruction. >:) (Related: a library, called Tweeter, that contains every function implementable in 150 bytes or less.)
2025-09-11 00:54:11 +0200Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-217b-fd1e-c506-2528-080c.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-09-11 00:54:26 +0200Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-217b-fd1e-c506-2528-080c.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-09-11 00:58:41 +0200 <arahael> Big library!
2025-09-11 01:03:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 01:03:52 +0200chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
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2025-09-11 01:05:27 +0200biberao(~m@user/biberao) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
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2025-09-11 01:06:37 +0200 <monochrom> It answers the kind of questions like "I'm defining foo f g h x y = f (g x) (h x y), why isn't it in Prelude already!"
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2025-09-11 01:13:35 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Quit: ljdarj)
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2025-09-11 01:23:09 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2025-09-11 01:47:23 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e717192649d3cadc2eaa05e5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-09-11 01:53:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-09-11 02:01:06 +0200mikess(~sam@user/mikess) mikess
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2025-09-11 02:05:04 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2025-09-11 02:46:03 +0200jmcantrell_(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
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2025-09-11 03:22:25 +0200chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
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2025-09-11 03:40:22 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-09-11 03:42:03 +0200 <L29Ah> https://bpa.st/RAGA how can this sad state of affairs be helped, except perhaps putting every record type in its own module?
2025-09-11 03:56:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 03:59:27 +0200karenw_(~karenw@user/karenw) (Quit: Deep into that darkness peering...)
2025-09-11 04:00:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-09-11 04:02:38 +0200 <pavonia> Wasn't there an extension for that purpose?
2025-09-11 04:03:00 +0200 <jackdk> Try enabling `{-# LANGUAGE DisambiguateRecordFields #-}`
2025-09-11 04:03:26 +0200 <pavonia> Yeah https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/disambiguate_record_fields.html
2025-09-11 04:07:21 +0200 <L29Ah> jackdk: i did
2025-09-11 04:07:33 +0200 <L29Ah> this is the result
2025-09-11 04:07:45 +0200 <jackdk> It might be `DuplicateRecordFields` that you need
2025-09-11 04:07:49 +0200 <L29Ah> jackdk: i did
2025-09-11 04:08:28 +0200 <pavonia> The ambiguity cannot be resolved in all cases, adding type annotations should help in those cases
2025-09-11 04:08:31 +0200 <L29Ah> apparently it can't do anything when it doesn't see the constructor right at the record mutation
2025-09-11 04:08:31 +0200 <jackdk> Then, respectfully, why did you not open with this information?
2025-09-11 04:08:40 +0200 <L29Ah> i added the type annotation as you can see
2025-09-11 04:08:59 +0200 <Leary> I don't believe there's any extension that allows this out-of-the-box. Technically, I think you can do it with OverloadedRecordUpdate and some boilerplate, but I wouldn't say it's better than the alternative.
2025-09-11 04:09:02 +0200 <L29Ah> jackdk: because i thought it is obvious
2025-09-11 04:09:41 +0200 <L29Ah> Leary: the current boilerplate is crazy and seems like it will go on like that for a while -- https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/16232
2025-09-11 04:09:58 +0200 <jackdk> I just noticed the record update is applied to the `def` and then you do the type application. You may have luck with `def @LlamaRequest` because then GHC may figure out the type of the record being updated
2025-09-11 04:10:41 +0200 <glguy> that isn't enough (I tried earlier)
2025-09-11 04:11:31 +0200 <glguy> in the case the work around is to use the named default value for that type and avoid def
2025-09-11 04:11:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 04:13:17 +0200 <L29Ah> glguy: named default value doesn't seem to change anything
2025-09-11 04:13:34 +0200 <L29Ah> deff :: LlamaRequest
2025-09-11 04:13:34 +0200 <L29Ah> defined at the top level, that is
2025-09-11 04:14:03 +0200 <glguy> Oh, I forgot which issue you were running into. sorry. your original separate module solution seems best if you have to use duplicate record fields
2025-09-11 04:15:19 +0200 <L29Ah> i don't strictly have to but aeson's generics work the best without mangling the field names
2025-09-11 04:16:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-09-11 04:17:25 +0200 <jackdk> L29Ah: GHC 9.8.4 accepts this code but warns that type-directed record updates will be eventually deprecated and removed. The key difference is using a type annotation on `def` instead of a type application (either before or after the record update) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kc8TPwKu/Encode.hs
2025-09-11 04:18:41 +0200 <L29Ah> jackdk: it is already removed in 9.12 IIRC
2025-09-11 04:18:49 +0200 <glguy> that file loads in 9.12
2025-09-11 04:19:22 +0200 <L29Ah> nvm thanks
2025-09-11 04:19:31 +0200 <glguy> but it doesn't seem great to rely on it sticking around in any case
2025-09-11 04:20:41 +0200 <L29Ah> i have a gut feeling that it won't be purged before 16232 gets in
2025-09-11 04:22:22 +0200 <L29Ah> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/25075#note_576241
2025-09-11 04:23:55 +0200 <L29Ah> https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/366 me pushe dislike so very hard!!
2025-09-11 04:23:59 +0200 <jackdk> https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/537#issuecomment-1327646670 there is an open proposal around having some form of type-signature-directed record updates stick around
2025-09-11 04:26:00 +0200 <jackdk> Remark: I generally recommend against using `class Default` because it's got no laws, and so it's very difficult to write a function that usefully generalises over `Default` instances, which to me is one of the two main points of having a typeclass (the other being to have GHC build a function in a type-directed manner, which also doesn't apply here).
2025-09-11 04:26:54 +0200 <jackdk> I tend to use generic-lens or generic-optics to do record updates unless I'm building a library where I need to not blow out the dependency footprint, which can look pretty nice with OverloadedLabels
2025-09-11 04:27:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 04:32:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-09-11 04:33:52 +0200 <geekosaur> Default can also bite you with unexpected types having Default instances
2025-09-11 04:34:06 +0200 <geekosaur> xmonad has already had a bug caused by it
2025-09-11 04:36:37 +0200 <L29Ah> could be argued about Monoid/mempty likewise
2025-09-11 04:37:11 +0200 <L29Ah> i try not to forget toplevel function signatures and decomposition to help with that
2025-09-11 04:38:57 +0200 <jackdk> Hard disagree re: Monoid because `mempty` has sensible behavior because of the laws that describe its interactions with `(<>)`
2025-09-11 04:39:15 +0200 <geekosaur> ^
2025-09-11 04:39:38 +0200 <geekosaur> Default just does whatever whoever added the instance wanted… but defaults depend on context
2025-09-11 04:40:06 +0200 <geekosaur> like, arguments could be made that the Default instance for Int should be 1 (think the addition vs. multiplication divide)
2025-09-11 04:40:28 +0200 <monochrom> I just cite the PHP example. Call it a strawman or anecdotal or whatever. There is a time type in PHP, then someone decreed that it has a default value and it is 0. Fortunately, someone else has the sanity to point out what's wrong with it.
2025-09-11 04:40:34 +0200 <L29Ah> oh Int has Default, great
2025-09-11 04:41:06 +0200 <jackdk> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-default has much better instances
2025-09-11 04:41:11 +0200 <geekosaur> (->) e has a default
2025-09-11 04:41:20 +0200 <geekosaur> (which is what bit us)
2025-09-11 04:41:43 +0200 <geekosaur> _lots_ of things have defaults. are they useful in all cases? not a chance
2025-09-11 04:43:02 +0200 <monochrom> I am OK with Default as long as you don't inflict your personalized idea of "default Int" on me.
2025-09-11 04:43:27 +0200 <monochrom> But then that's just another way to say that I accept Monoid not Default.
2025-09-11 04:43:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 04:44:00 +0200 <monochrom> (Int, (+)) has a default. (Int, (*)) has a default. There are others. Int alone has no default.
2025-09-11 04:44:01 +0200 <geekosaur> there's no way to not inflict a personalized idea if it's a typeclass
2025-09-11 04:44:51 +0200 <geekosaur> the typeclass police should arrest Default
2025-09-11 04:45:28 +0200 <mauke> (->) e had a default
2025-09-11 04:46:26 +0200 <monochrom> Actually, isn't (->)e the wrong kind for Default?
2025-09-11 04:46:53 +0200 <mauke> implied (Default a) => Default ((->) e a)
2025-09-11 04:47:00 +0200 <monochrom> Oh, that.
2025-09-11 04:47:03 +0200 <dibblego> every time I look at Default, it is worse than my imagination approximates, but I assume it is ((->) e e)
2025-09-11 04:47:09 +0200 <dibblego> oh
2025-09-11 04:47:39 +0200 <monochrom> Hey at least it's palatable to math "pointwise extension" :)
2025-09-11 04:48:00 +0200 <geekosaur> hint: const
2025-09-11 04:48:00 +0200 <dibblego> :)
2025-09-11 04:48:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-09-11 04:48:27 +0200 <jackdk> monochrom: I think "(Int, (+)) has a default" muddies the waters. I would say "(Int, (+)) has an identity element" or "... a neutral element"
2025-09-11 04:48:57 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in)
2025-09-11 04:49:01 +0200 <mauke> because what I really wanted was (Default a, Applicative f) => Default (f a), but that's not legal
2025-09-11 04:49:08 +0200 <geekosaur> I took the point as "that's a better notion of "default" than Default is
2025-09-11 04:49:10 +0200 <geekosaur> "
2025-09-11 04:49:11 +0200 <monochrom> I want to muddle the water so much it wraps around and clarifies to "why not do it properly and make a Monoid".
2025-09-11 04:49:27 +0200 <jackdk> OK
2025-09-11 04:50:24 +0200 <monochrom> Alternatively or equivalently I want to hijack the "plain English" word "default" and re-define it to be monoid identity.
2025-09-11 04:51:40 +0200 <mauke> anyway, the controversial (e -> a) and (IO a) instances have been removed
2025-09-11 04:51:52 +0200 <mauke> and the controversial Bool instance added
2025-09-11 04:52:00 +0200 <dibblego> alternatively, s/Default/Hyperfault
2025-09-11 04:52:17 +0200 <geekosaur> how about just "Fault"
2025-09-11 04:52:53 +0200 <monochrom> I thought people knew better than a default Bool.
2025-09-11 04:53:08 +0200 <monochrom> You have like 50% chance of being wrong.
2025-09-11 04:53:13 +0200 <mauke> I do, but it was a user request
2025-09-11 04:53:44 +0200 <monochrom> But OK, there is a selection bias. The Default library is doomed to attract a certain kind of people...
2025-09-11 04:54:01 +0200 <mauke> by Neil Mitchell, possibly?
2025-09-11 04:59:17 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 05:05:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-09-11 05:10:38 +0200LainIwakura(~LainIwaku@user/LainIwakura) LainIwakura
2025-09-11 05:17:07 +0200aforemny_(~aforemny@i59F4C711.versanet.de) aforemny
2025-09-11 05:17:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 05:17:24 +0200aforemny(~aforemny@i59F4C7D6.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-09-11 05:22:03 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-09-11 05:33:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 05:38:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-09-11 05:48:11 +0200Googulator61Googulator
2025-09-11 05:48:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 05:49:30 +0200 <probie> monochrom: the default Bool should be `False`. I flipped a coin and that was the result (also, just having false and implication gives us everything in classical logic, so maybe it is a slightly better choice than true)
2025-09-11 05:52:26 +0200Square2(~Square@user/square) Square
2025-09-11 05:52:30 +0200 <L29Ah> i did an anonymous mmap and that was the result of unsafeCoerce
2025-09-11 05:53:40 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-09-11 05:56:34 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2025-09-11 06:04:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 06:10:52 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) Unicorn_Princess
2025-09-11 06:11:29 +0200 <monochrom> probie: That is just not true. (pun! don't take it seriously >:) )
2025-09-11 06:12:03 +0200hjj123(~hjj123@178.155.115.231)
2025-09-11 06:13:03 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2025-09-11 06:23:40 +0200hjj123(~hjj123@178.155.115.231) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-09-11 06:24:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 06:26:14 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-54-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-09-11 06:26:27 +0200trickard_(~trickard@cpe-54-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-09-11 06:29:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-09-11 06:30:42 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) segfaultfizzbuzz
2025-09-11 06:33:45 +0200simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2025-09-11 06:34:59 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2025-09-11 06:39:27 +0200trickard_(~trickard@cpe-54-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-09-11 06:39:40 +0200trickard_(~trickard@cpe-54-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-09-11 06:40:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-11 06:42:26 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be)
2025-09-11 06:45:39 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.201)
2025-09-11 06:46:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)