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| 2025-09-01 00:22:08 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) |
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| 2025-09-01 00:37:18 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:bd35:e832:d637:ba5c) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
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| 2025-09-01 01:16:08 +0200 | ljdarj1 | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2025-09-01 01:18:29 +0200 | amadaluzia | (~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in) |
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| 2025-09-01 01:21:23 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2025-09-01 01:23:09 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 01:24:05 +0200 | ftzm | (~ftzm@085080231172.dynamic.telenor.dk) (Server closed connection) |
| 2025-09-01 01:24:29 +0200 | ftzm | (~ftzm@085080231172.dynamic.telenor.dk) ftzm |
| 2025-09-01 01:25:16 +0200 | <jreicher> | sajenim: No, I think Haskell is quite bad as a first language. I don't think anything with such an expressive type system should be a first language. |
| 2025-09-01 01:27:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 01:28:42 +0200 | twb | (~twb@user/twb) twb |
| 2025-09-01 01:28:55 +0200 | <EvanR> | disagree |
| 2025-09-01 01:29:17 +0200 | <EvanR> | I wish I had types in retrospect, in many situations |
| 2025-09-01 01:29:29 +0200 | <twb> | Dumb question: when https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base64 talks about "optics" and "lenses", what does it mean? I've only seen "lens" in the context of augeas (an ocaml-y thing) configuration file parsers. |
| 2025-09-01 01:29:33 +0200 | <monochrom> | Soon it will no longer matter. Prompt engineering will be the first and only language, like it or not. |
| 2025-09-01 01:29:37 +0200 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 2025-09-01 01:30:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | as soon as the AI code behind the scenes is written in "prompt" |
| 2025-09-01 01:30:17 +0200 | <twb> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-0.1/docs/Optics.html#g:2 loosk relevant |
| 2025-09-01 01:31:06 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh, Python not boostrapping itself in practice hasn't stopped a whole lot of people form using it as their first and only language. |
| 2025-09-01 01:31:16 +0200 | <jreicher> | EvanR: FWIW I only hold this opinion for a first programming language. Later languages (and any serious work) should be typed. |
| 2025-09-01 01:31:28 +0200 | <EvanR> | "my first and only language" vs "the only first and only language" |
| 2025-09-01 01:32:00 +0200 | <monochrom> | Sure. Let me fix my sentence then! |
| 2025-09-01 01:32:09 +0200 | <twb> | jreicher: "not typed" meaning weakly typed like bash and php, or *literally* untyped, so true, 1, "" and identity: x -> x are all literally identical |
| 2025-09-01 01:32:12 +0200 | <monochrom> | Soon it will no longer matter. Prompt engineering will be the first and only language for most people, like it or not. |
| 2025-09-01 01:32:25 +0200 | <EvanR> | I feel like we're already there |
| 2025-09-01 01:32:53 +0200 | <EvanR> | people using free LLMs dwarfs programmers |
| 2025-09-01 01:33:33 +0200 | <twb> | oh you mean "prompt engineering" as in LLM grifts, not "engineers who work quickly and efficiently" |
| 2025-09-01 01:33:56 +0200 | <jreicher> | twb: I feel like it's a pretty thin line between untyped and types as weak as bash or PHP. |
| 2025-09-01 01:34:38 +0200 | <twb> | jreicher: my general rule is that weakly typed code is OK if it's only going to run once |
| 2025-09-01 01:34:42 +0200 | trickard_ | (~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-09-01 01:34:50 +0200 | <twb> | so e.g. I do not replace bash with ghci for interactive login shell |
| 2025-09-01 01:34:55 +0200 | trickard_ | (~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 2025-09-01 01:35:04 +0200 | <twb> | But I wouldn't write scripts in it that were good enough to commit in git |
| 2025-09-01 01:35:10 +0200 | <jreicher> | twb: My rules is weakly typed code is OK if it's OK for it to not work. :) |
| 2025-09-01 01:35:17 +0200 | <twb> | yeah exactly |
| 2025-09-01 01:35:47 +0200 | <jreicher> | And that's pretty much why it's OK for a first programming language. |
| 2025-09-01 01:35:52 +0200 | <twb> | and also anything over 80 bytes long must be strongly typed |
| 2025-09-01 01:36:06 +0200 | <jreicher> | Writing something that doesn't work is a valuable learning experience. |
| 2025-09-01 01:36:17 +0200 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f15cf0019f42a7dc19cb9cd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-09-01 01:36:20 +0200 | <monochrom> | I write typed code in my head, then perform type erasure when I spit out shell scripts or Lisp or Prolog or... |
| 2025-09-01 01:37:02 +0200 | <monochrom> | On the upside, since the form just has to be in my head, it can be any arbitrarily undecidable dependent typing. |
| 2025-09-01 01:37:11 +0200 | <monochrom> | s/form/former/ |
| 2025-09-01 01:37:24 +0200 | <jreicher> | You could even do nondeterministic code that way. :p |
| 2025-09-01 01:37:37 +0200 | <EvanR> | PHP, python, etc, is write only code |
| 2025-09-01 01:37:39 +0200 | <EvanR> | ruby |
| 2025-09-01 01:37:46 +0200 | <monochrom> | Perl |
| 2025-09-01 01:38:10 +0200 | <monochrom> | I feel like Python is not too badly write-only. |
| 2025-09-01 01:38:55 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 01:39:02 +0200 | <twb> | monochrom: you can declaim types in lisp |
| 2025-09-01 01:39:18 +0200 | <twb> | CL is "static typing later" not "static typing never" |
| 2025-09-01 01:39:58 +0200 | <monochrom> | Not bothering. Lisp has other things that repel me. I will just use Haskell or Javascript. |
| 2025-09-01 01:40:25 +0200 | <EvanR> | or the frankenlanguage purescript xD |
| 2025-09-01 01:41:01 +0200 | <monochrom> | That whole "function binding vs variable binding" business. Perl repels me for the same reason. |
| 2025-09-01 01:44:32 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 01:55:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 02:07:34 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
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| 2025-09-01 02:09:51 +0200 | trickard_ | trickard |
| 2025-09-01 02:19:55 +0200 | Raito_Bezarius | (~Raito@libera/contributor/wireguard.tunneler.raito-bezarius) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
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| 2025-09-01 02:33:42 +0200 | Raito_Bezarius | (~Raito@libera/contributor/wireguard.tunneler.raito-bezarius) Raito_Bezarius |
| 2025-09-01 02:40:54 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:cd2b:541b:f532:66b1) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 02:41:33 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) segfaultfizzbuzz |
| 2025-09-01 02:53:14 +0200 | Lycurgus | (~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: alsoknownas.renjuan.org ( juan@acm.org )) |
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| 2025-09-01 03:08:13 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2025-09-01 03:12:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2025-09-01 03:50:35 +0200 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-28ad-f9f3-8649-eb89-633c.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-09-01 03:50:55 +0200 | potatoespotatoes | (~quassel@130.44.147.204) |
| 2025-09-01 03:50:55 +0200 | potatoespotatoes | (~quassel@130.44.147.204) (Changing host) |
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| 2025-09-01 04:25:17 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2025-09-01 04:26:35 +0200 | potatoespotatoes | (~quassel@user/potatoespotatoes) () |
| 2025-09-01 04:26:40 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2025-09-01 04:26:56 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
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| 2025-09-01 05:07:50 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) segfaultfizzbuzz |
| 2025-09-01 05:13:58 +0200 | zfnmxt | (~zfnmxt@user/zfnmxt) zfnmxt |
| 2025-09-01 05:21:21 +0200 | potatoespotatoes | (~quassel@130.44.147.204) |
| 2025-09-01 05:21:21 +0200 | potatoespotatoes | (~quassel@130.44.147.204) (Changing host) |
| 2025-09-01 05:21:21 +0200 | potatoespotatoes | (~quassel@user/potatoespotatoes) potatoespotatoes |
| 2025-09-01 05:29:03 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 05:31:21 +0200 | potatoespotatoes | (~quassel@user/potatoespotatoes) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 05:32:37 +0200 | sprout | (~sprout@2a02-a448-3a80-0-c61c-b515-5509-58e7.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 05:33:09 +0200 | sprout | (~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net) sprout |
| 2025-09-01 05:50:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 05:51:36 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) |
| 2025-09-01 05:55:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 06:03:19 +0200 | trickard_ | (~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 06:03:36 +0200 | trickard_ | (~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 2025-09-01 06:08:32 +0200 | trickard_ | (~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 06:09:38 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2025-09-01 06:13:50 +0200 | trickard_ | (~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) |
| 2025-09-01 06:14:23 +0200 | visilii | (~visilii@85.94.26.33) |
| 2025-09-01 06:16:12 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 06:28:40 +0200 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 06:29:01 +0200 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
| 2025-09-01 06:34:01 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-09-01 06:34:39 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) marinelli |
| 2025-09-01 06:40:49 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
| 2025-09-01 06:41:03 +0200 | karenw | (~karenw@user/karenw) (Quit: Deep into that darkness peering...) |
| 2025-09-01 06:43:19 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-09-01 06:43:34 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) |
| 2025-09-01 06:45:01 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-09-01 06:45:58 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) marinelli |
| 2025-09-01 06:48:32 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-09-01 06:59:22 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.222) |
| 2025-09-01 06:59:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 07:02:58 +0200 | jmcantrell_ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 07:10:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 07:16:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 07:23:49 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-149-049.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-09-01 07:26:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 07:33:38 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 07:33:46 +0200 | Googulator17 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-28ad-f9f3-8649-eb89-633c.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-09-01 07:37:21 +0200 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-28ad-f9f3-8649-eb89-633c.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 07:44:47 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 07:50:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 08:00:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 08:02:40 +0200 | mal1 | lieven |
| 2025-09-01 08:03:32 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-149-049.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 08:04:35 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Read error: Connection timed out) |
| 2025-09-01 08:05:50 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 08:10:29 +0200 | m1dnight | (~m1dnight@d8D861A17.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-09-01 08:16:35 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-09-01 08:16:39 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-09-01 08:18:28 +0200 | chele | (~chele@user/chele) chele |
| 2025-09-01 08:19:05 +0200 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |