2026/03/23

2026-03-23 00:01:24 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-03-23 00:12:47 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-03-23 00:28:09 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 00:31:50 +0000 <probie> fundamentally, lisp macros are not really much different than template haskell; they're just a bit less obvious because nothing visually distinguishes them from functions
2026-03-23 00:32:24 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-03-23 00:32:29 +0000 <humasect> well..
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2026-03-23 01:44:32 +0000CloneOfNone(~CloneOfNo@user/CloneOfNone) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in)
2026-03-23 01:45:14 +0000td123(~tom@user/td123) td123
2026-03-23 01:45:50 +0000CloneOfNone(~CloneOfNo@user/CloneOfNone) CloneOfNone
2026-03-23 01:47:42 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 01:50:00 +0000 <jreicher> dpk: sorry? Why do you think they don't expand at runtime?
2026-03-23 01:51:13 +0000 <td123> hey all, I'm scratching my head on this for a while so going to ask here for some clues, I have a stack.yaml with `- retroclash-lib-0.1.2.3` under the extra-deps. I'm running `stack build --allow-newer` and it's not building the `retroclash-lib` package and I can't import in ghci, but there are no errors in `stack build --allow-newer`. Any ideas how this is possible?
2026-03-23 01:52:03 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-03-23 02:03:04 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 02:07:08 +0000lbseale(~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) ep1ctetus
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2026-03-23 02:11:54 +0000lbseale(~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) ep1ctetus
2026-03-23 02:12:27 +0000 <haskellbridge> <alexfmpe> Not a stack user but isn't that just an override to LTS? You need to add it as a dep to package.yaml or so?
2026-03-23 02:18:32 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 02:19:37 +0000 <td123> I'm not using a package.yaml file, I'm using a project.cabal file, and it's in the build-depends: also
2026-03-23 02:20:41 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> project.cabal doesn't affect stack builds, it's a cabal-install thing
2026-03-23 02:21:05 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> alexfmpe 's answer is right
2026-03-23 02:23:10 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-03-23 02:26:43 +0000 <td123> ah so I need a package.yaml then, I didn't realize that was a thing, thanks all, I'll read up on that more
2026-03-23 02:29:37 +0000husixu(~husixu@2406:3003:2007:fe4:68ee:9c53:6141:39ea) husixu
2026-03-23 02:30:00 +0000 <geekosaur> are you confusing project.cabal with cabal.project?
2026-03-23 02:30:38 +0000 <geekosaur> package.yaml just writes a foo.cabal for whatever "foo" is from the package name
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2026-03-23 02:33:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 02:38:26 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-03-23 02:39:16 +0000 <td123> geekosaur: hmm I see. I think I need to learn stack a little bit more then so that I can use it properly. I thought all you had to do was add it to the stack.yaml and .cabal files to make it work. Google's ai summary of google results led me astray then
2026-03-23 02:39:55 +0000 <geekosaur> that normally is enough, but extra-deps may need additional massaging because they're deliberately overriding stack and stack doesn't have a solver
2026-03-23 02:40:39 +0000 <geekosaur> I'm not a stack user and know only basic usage; I don't know how --allow-newer affects it, as distinct from how it affects cabal
2026-03-23 02:43:40 +0000 <geekosaur> but I can say that stack is simpler than cabal until you start messing with extra-deps, then it suddenly becomes harder (and much harder as you add extra-deps)
2026-03-23 02:44:18 +0000 <geekosaur> but if you have only the one, you may be better off just pinning it to a later version and skipping the --allow-newer
2026-03-23 02:44:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> ohh I'm sorry, I total was. geekosaur and alexfmpe are right but I was not.
2026-03-23 02:47:36 +0000tremon(~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-03-23 02:48:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> td123 package.yaml isn't required, stack will use the project.cabal file directly otherwise
2026-03-23 02:49:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 02:50:24 +0000 <geekosaur> stack's package.yaml is just a more convenient way to generate cabal files, which can be significantly more complex to write directly (granting that most people don't need that complexity)
2026-03-23 02:51:42 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> and yes normally adding a package to build-depends is what's needed to make it importable in ghci. Note, that means ghci as run by "stack ghci" or cabal equivalent, in your project. Not just "ghci" at the command line.
2026-03-23 02:51:43 +0000 <geekosaur> also cabal files require you to write some things out fully, which package.yaml lets you abbreviate
2026-03-23 02:53:17 +0000 <td123> alright, I relaxed the version bounds for clash-shake so I no longer need --allow-newer for stack build, but I still can't import something like `import RetroClash.Utils` in `stack ghci`
2026-03-23 02:53:52 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> does "stack exec -- ghc-pkg list | grep retroclash" show it installed ?
2026-03-23 02:54:17 +0000 <td123> nope
2026-03-23 02:54:22 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-03-23 02:54:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> is it in the right build-depends list in the .cabal file ? each component can have a different one
2026-03-23 02:55:32 +0000 <geekosaur> they said it was building, so presumably it is
2026-03-23 02:55:45 +0000 <geekosaur> I don't know how stack ghci deals with multiple components, though
2026-03-23 02:56:44 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> if "stack build" logged that package being installed successfully, it should be showing up in that ghc-pkg command I would think.
2026-03-23 02:57:02 +0000 <td123> stack build works, but it isn't logging that package as being installed, here is my cabal file https://paste.tomsmeding.com/sGAahNdz
2026-03-23 02:57:19 +0000karenw(~karenw@user/karenw) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 02:57:34 +0000 <probie> jreicher: you're the one asserting they can expand at runtime. Can you give a minimal example (that doesn't use `eval`, since whilst technically true, it's equally dangerous without macros)
2026-03-23 02:57:46 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> capitalised Build-Depends in the executable component - is that valid ?
2026-03-23 02:58:24 +0000 <geekosaur> yes
2026-03-23 02:58:52 +0000 <geekosaur> the Cabal library (actually Cabal-syntax) would be complaining about an invalid cabal file otherwise
2026-03-23 02:59:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> so I hope..
2026-03-23 03:01:53 +0000 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/~cabal/Cabal-1.0/doc/pkg-spec-html/x611.html#SBI-PKG-DESC
2026-03-23 03:02:40 +0000 <geekosaur> this hasn't changed, field names are case independent and always have been
2026-03-23 03:04:32 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 03:04:45 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-03-23 03:05:06 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> good
2026-03-23 03:05:26 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> td123 retroclash-lib isn't listed under packages: in stack.yaml is it ? shouldn't be
2026-03-23 03:06:47 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2026-03-23 03:06:50 +0000 <td123> It's listed under extra-deps: Here's my stack.yaml and stack.yaml.lock: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/m4q1xjRa
2026-03-23 03:07:37 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> all looks fine. I am scratching my head too.
2026-03-23 03:08:11 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> at this point I would be testing with a more minimal .cabal file
2026-03-23 03:09:27 +0000 <geekosaur> were it cabal instead of stack I'd be digging at plan.json (probably via cabal-plan, but sometimes I `jq . plan.json | grep …`)
2026-03-23 03:09:28 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-03-23 03:11:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> does "cabal build --dry-run" look like it would install retroclash-lib ?
2026-03-23 03:11:44 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-03-23 03:12:00 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-03-23 03:12:21 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> we would expect it to, and "stack build --dry-run" too
2026-03-23 03:13:14 +0000 <jreicher> probie: I'm not sure I understand the challenge/question. Any macro is expanded at runtime, and a human can't tell what the expansion will do without "performing it in their head". So it's statically analysable only in the same way that any (simple) code is; i.e., not really.
2026-03-23 03:13:47 +0000 <jreicher> It's not like the C preprocessor which cannot use all of C. A Lisp macro can be arbitrary Lisp code.
2026-03-23 03:16:07 +0000 <td123> alright, I think I might be getting somewhere, I created a new project with `stack new test-stack`, added retroclash-lib-0.1.2.3 to extra-deps in stack.yaml, and added it to package.yaml as well to the dependencies and now I'm getting an error: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/85f8ohfe
2026-03-23 03:17:56 +0000 <probie> jreicher: so running "hello.lisp" from https://paste.sr.ht/~probie/646187f9483b6d526adf872692b2d7e9b69614dd will output "T\n2\n4", since `some-macro` doesn't depend on the runtime value of `*flag*`
2026-03-23 03:19:32 +0000 <probie> The value of `(some-macro *2)` is decided during the macro expansion phase, which is generally considered a distinct thing from "runtime"
2026-03-23 03:21:06 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> td123 seems reasonable. I might be confused, but: your pastes showed a seven-segment.cabal file, but the stack.yaml's packages list mentions a clash-shake package
2026-03-23 03:21:48 +0000 <probie> If you want to perform static analysis on lisp code, you run it after macro-expansion; in the same way you'd do it for Haskell after all Template Haskell has been evaluated
2026-03-23 03:22:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 03:22:45 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> with that stack.yaml file, stack build will build only clash-shake
2026-03-23 03:23:10 +0000puke(~puke@user/puke) puke
2026-03-23 03:23:16 +0000 <td123> I think you figured it out, I think I might need a `- .` in there as well huh.
2026-03-23 03:23:26 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> aha
2026-03-23 03:26:04 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> significant fog of war :)
2026-03-23 03:27:27 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026-03-23 03:27:41 +0000 <jreicher> probie: OK, I understand. I regard eager macro-expansion as a compiler optimisation that should be indistinguishable from the behaviour of not having it. And also when I run your code through an interpreter I get different behaviour, but I'm guessing you regard that as invalid since you seem to think the behaviour of "real" compilers is the authority on semantics. And that's OK; just wanted to know where the difference of opinion was.
2026-03-23 03:27:55 +0000 <td123> yup that was it, now it's building retroclash-lib! Thanks everyone :)
2026-03-23 03:29:05 +0000 <jreicher> This also explains why macro-expansion tools are needed. A human can't do static analysis without "running" the expansion. But you might like to say "compiling" it.
2026-03-23 03:29:43 +0000wickedjargon(~user@S0106f89e28d5699a.vc.shawcable.net) wickedjargon
2026-03-23 03:36:52 +0000 <probie> jreicher: interesting; what are you running it through?
2026-03-23 03:37:39 +0000 <probie> huh, clisp gives me a different result
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2026-03-23 05:17:10 +0000 <jreicher> probie: I just used ielm because it's right in front of me. Good enough for this example I think even though you might not consider it a "real" lisp environment. (And I probably wouldn't argue with that.)
2026-03-23 05:17:41 +0000 <jreicher> What did clisp give you?
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2026-03-23 05:57:19 +0000 <probie> jreicher: It gave me "T\n2\n2". After wasting time looking into it, both responses are correct wrt. the Common Lisp standard. I'd call ielm a "real lisp environment", but I had incorrectly assumed that by lisp you meant "common lisp" and not "an arbitrary member of the lisp family of languages"
2026-03-23 05:57:41 +0000lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) lisbeths
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2026-03-23 06:34:58 +0000 <jreicher> I haven't made up my mind yet which Lisp is the One True Lisp. ;)
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2026-03-23 07:51:13 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@p549cb690.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) CiaoSen
2026-03-23 07:52:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-03-23 08:07:57 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 08:13:55 +0000mistivia(~mistivia@user/mistivia) mistivia
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2026-03-23 08:16:05 +0000Freakie(~Freakie@37.96.11.80)
2026-03-23 08:17:28 +0000 <arahael_> I wonder how the emacs crowd feels about that statement. :P
2026-03-23 08:19:54 +0000 <Freakie> does anyone have general tips on doing FFI to C/C++? I have to link some dependencies along with my own library but there must be some better way than manually linking from where cabal installed the packages
2026-03-23 08:25:59 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 08:26:16 +0000 <[exa]> jreicher: the true lisp are many
2026-03-23 08:27:25 +0000 <[exa]> Freakie: the "your own library" that you have to link the dependencies to -- that is a C or haskell one?
2026-03-23 08:27:43 +0000 <[exa]> Freakie: btw check out c2hs if you didn't already, it may help a lot (and you can steal a lot of tricks from its users)
2026-03-23 08:29:47 +0000Enrico63(~Enrico63@host-79-18-154-39.retail.telecomitalia.it) Enrico63
2026-03-23 08:30:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 08:31:09 +0000sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-03-23 08:31:29 +0000sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2026-03-23 08:32:58 +0000 <Freakie> I'm doing haskell to c++ which seems a much less treated topic
2026-03-23 08:33:14 +0000 <Freakie> so it's both my own code + the dependencies
2026-03-23 08:36:53 +0000 <[exa]> so "haskell calls C++" if I get it right?
2026-03-23 08:37:08 +0000 <[exa]> (I assumed that the less-treated topic would be "C++ calls haskell")
2026-03-23 08:37:26 +0000 <Freakie> no, the other way around
2026-03-23 08:37:35 +0000 <Freakie> I have a Haskell library that I need to call from C++
2026-03-23 08:37:55 +0000 <Freakie> oh I guess c2hs does do that
2026-03-23 08:38:17 +0000 <[exa]> ahhhh okay, and you are currently forced to handpick all the dependency libraries from whatever cabal produces
2026-03-23 08:38:19 +0000 <Freakie> nvm that, I'm bad at glancing
2026-03-23 08:39:21 +0000 <Freakie> I have hunted down the lib files from my library at whatever deeply nested folder cabal builds them but I'm not going to put in the work to hunt and write down the directories where cabal installs other packages
2026-03-23 08:39:34 +0000 <Freakie> there must be some better method
2026-03-23 08:41:22 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 08:41:57 +0000 <[exa]> you might want this https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-package-description-file.html#foreign-libraries
2026-03-23 08:42:10 +0000Freakie(~Freakie@37.96.11.80) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-03-23 08:42:26 +0000 <[exa]> oh noes they left
2026-03-23 08:46:04 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: bye)
2026-03-23 08:46:40 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-03-23 08:48:31 +0000Freakie(~Freakie@185.45.22.133)
2026-03-23 08:48:56 +0000 <Freakie> exa sorry pc went to hibernate, not sure if you replied meanwhile
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2026-03-23 08:51:31 +0000Vizious(~bes@user/Vizious) Vizious
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2026-03-23 09:01:48 +0000acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e59583adec8ec8581817.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
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2026-03-23 09:15:41 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
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2026-03-23 09:30:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-03-23 09:41:09 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2026-03-23 09:42:46 +0000czan(~czan@user/mange) czan
2026-03-23 09:46:01 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-03-23 09:54:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 09:56:18 +0000 <[exa]> Freakie: you might want this https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-package-description-file.html#foreign-libraries
2026-03-23 09:56:27 +0000 <[exa]> (resent)
2026-03-23 09:57:33 +0000 <[exa]> (oh whoops "resent" is not a good shortcut for "transmitted again")
2026-03-23 09:58:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-03-23 09:59:13 +0000 <Freakie> that's what I've been using which at least lets it *compile* (at least if I forcefeed cabal the right arguments to turn off profiling)
2026-03-23 09:59:34 +0000 <Freakie> but I still have the issue of trying to actually link it on the cpp side
2026-03-23 09:59:51 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@p549cb690.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:00:26 +0000 <Freakie> also side note: the file structure of build systems makes me irrationally tired at times
2026-03-23 10:08:06 +0000 <[exa]> ok, might be useful to see the cabal config and commands
2026-03-23 10:08:43 +0000 <[exa]> btw you get the haskell lib as one big .so in the end?
2026-03-23 10:09:39 +0000humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
2026-03-23 10:09:58 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 10:12:50 +0000 <Freakie> yeah
2026-03-23 10:13:07 +0000 <Freakie> I've tried to look around the cabal documentation but frankly I don't think it's been very helpful
2026-03-23 10:13:38 +0000 <Freakie> not sure why it wouldn't automatically put the symbols in the output library to begin with though
2026-03-23 10:15:04 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:21:05 +0000 <[exa]> Freakie: that would mean it's linking somewhat statically (kinda half-statically)
2026-03-23 10:21:05 +0000 <[exa]> but I think there should be a way to do that
2026-03-23 10:21:05 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:21:05 +0000 <[exa]> if you didn't try forcing a static build on that, I'd suggest giving it a shot
2026-03-23 10:21:55 +0000preflex(~preflex@user/mauke/bot/preflex) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:22:06 +0000preflex(~preflex@user/mauke/bot/preflex) preflex
2026-03-23 10:27:55 +0000mjrosenb(~mjrosenb@pool-71-190-143-170.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:28:31 +0000DragonMaus(~DragonMau@user/dragonmaus) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:30:16 +0000 <Freakie> okay I did pass -staticlib to ghc  for that particular library
2026-03-23 10:30:55 +0000koz(~koz@121.99.240.58) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:33:55 +0000yin(~zero@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:33:55 +0000koz(~koz@121.99.240.58)
2026-03-23 10:34:03 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 10:34:04 +0000 <Freakie> I did it trying to bypass a compilation error that I see now may not be necessary
2026-03-23 10:34:04 +0000 <Freakie> looks like not passing -statliclib was the fix I needed, now I feel silly.
2026-03-23 10:34:04 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-03-23 10:34:04 +0000 <[exa]> oh did that work?
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2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000jonnie(~jonnie@user/jonnie) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000natto17(~natto@129.154.243.159) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000stureplan(22e45d5caf@user/stureplan) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000simendsjo(34b0550437@2a03:6000:1812:100::1441) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000RussetParrotBear(45ce440a48@2a03:6000:1812:100::e2) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000arcadewise(52968ed80d@2a03:6000:1812:100::3df) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000sajith(~sajith@user/sajith) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000nonzen_(~nonzen@user/nonzen) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:03 +0000b0o(0e4a0bf4c9@2a03:6000:1812:100::1bf) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000bgtdsword(b968c1779f@user/titibandit) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000iphy(sid67735@user/iphy) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000lukec(9dfd4d094e@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000chr55(57a0c161b0@user/chr55) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000fvr(ef3e56ca8b@2a03:6000:1812:100::3c4) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000yushyin(wXieVo4SsI@mail.karif.server-speed.net) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000aspen(sid449115@id-449115.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000kmein(~weechat@user/kmein) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000Pent(sid313808@id-313808.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000b20n(sid115913@id-115913.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000Fangs(sid141280@id-141280.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000mikko(~mikko@user/mikko) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000elenril(~elenril@tutturu.khirnov.net) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000mima(~mmh@user/mima) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000robertm(robertm@lattice.rojoma.com) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000stefan-__(~m-yh2rcc@42dots.de) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000ent(entgod@kapsi.fi) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:45:04 +0000pie_(~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) (*.net *.split)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000mjrosenb(~mjrosenb@pool-71-190-143-170.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000koz_(~koz@121.99.240.58)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000takuan(~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000marinelli(~weechat@brrr.fr) marinelli
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Vizious(~bes@user/Vizious) Vizious
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Freakie(~Freakie@185.45.22.133)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000CloneOfNone(~CloneOfNo@user/CloneOfNone) CloneOfNone
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000bggd_(~bgg@2a01:e0a:fd5:f510:bfe:c198:15:df5e)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) rainbyte
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Alex_delenda_est(~al_test@5.139.233.200)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000[_________](~oos95GWG@user/oos95GWG) oos95GWG
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000AlexZenon(~alzenon@5.139.233.200)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@5.139.233.200)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000jle`(~jle`@2603:8001:3b00:11:db71:d654:fa5c:59c0) jle`
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000DetourNetworkUK(~DetourNet@user/DetourNetworkUK) DetourNetworkUK
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000op_4(~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) op_4
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000attlin(~user@user/attlin) attlin
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000img(~img@user/img) img
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000_d0t(~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) {-d0t-}
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Putonlalla(~Putonlall@it-cyan.it.jyu.fi) Tuplanolla
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000tristanC(~tristanC@2602:4b:ac7b:500:701e:9a24:a355:5957)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000walt(~ggVGc@a.lowtech.earth)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000[exa](~exa@user/exa/x-3587197) [exa]
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000tantalum.libera.chat+v haskellbridge
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000xdej_(~xdej@quatramaran.salle-s.org)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000mzg_(mzg@abusers.hu)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000bgamari(~bgamari@64.223.168.27)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000haetsal(~quassel@221.138.168.192)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000vulpine(xfnw@user/meow/xfnw) xfnw
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000bryanv(~quassel@2603:c028:4503:7500:45b7:933:ab17:bc10)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000ouilemur(~jgmerritt@user/ouilemur) ouilemur
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000DDR_(~DDR_@user/DDR-:65247) DDR_
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000carbolymer(carbolymer@delirium.systems) carbolymer
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Vq(~vq@user/vq) Vq
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000cyphase(~cyphase@user/cyphase) cyphase
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000natechan(~natechan@c-98-45-159-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Maxdamantus(~Maxdamant@user/maxdamantus) Maxdamantus
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000terrorjack(~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:271:2d98::2) terrorjack
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000tessier_(~tessier@ip68-8-117-219.sd.sd.cox.net) tessier
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Natch(~natch@c-92-34-15-120.bbcust.telenor.se) Natch
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000ridcully_(~ridcully@p57b529aa.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ridcully
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Beowulf(florian@sleipnir.bandrate.org)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000aka_dude(~aka_dude@192.71.166.120)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000FANTOM(~fantom@90.251.214.54)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Vajb(~Vajb@n7m5g0hrctljxjtgjiv-1.v6.elisa-mobile.fi)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Noinia(~Frank@77-162-168-71.fixed.kpn.net)
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000nadja(~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) dequbed
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000tired(~tired@user/tired) tired
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000nisstyre(wes@user/nisstyre) nisstyre
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000edwardk(sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) edwardk
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000lukec(9dfd4d094e@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e)
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Hecate(~mariposa@user/hecate) Hecate
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000xstill_(xstill@fimu/xstill) xstill
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000Pent(sid313808@id-313808.lymington.irccloud.com) Pent____
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000dy(sid3438@user/dy) \\\\\
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000hamishmack(sid389057@id-389057.hampstead.irccloud.com) hamishmack
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000h2t(~h2t@user/h2t) h2t
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2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000liskin(~liskin@xmonad/liskin) Liskni_si
2026-03-23 10:52:18 +0000lantti(~lantti@xcalibur.cc.tut.fi)
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2026-03-23 10:52:39 +0000 <[exa]> that's the end of my logic tho. :D
2026-03-23 10:52:39 +0000koala_man(~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com) koala_man
2026-03-23 10:52:40 +0000 <Freakie> well I'm just compiling with GHC directly and importing the dynamic libraries with the appropriate flags
2026-03-23 10:52:40 +0000foul_owl(~kerry@94.156.149.92) foul_owl
2026-03-23 10:56:21 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 10:57:41 +0000albet70(~xxx@172-233-90-118.ip.linodeusercontent.com) albet70
2026-03-23 10:59:04 +0000 <Freakie> no, seems I'm back where I started :/ the library files don't inclued dependencies
2026-03-23 10:59:06 +0000 <Freakie> include*
2026-03-23 11:00:02 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-03-23 11:00:37 +0000 <[exa]> Freakie: the "dependencies" are what exactly, in this case? (other haskell libraries?)
2026-03-23 11:03:03 +0000husixu(~husixu@2406:3003:2007:fe4:68ee:9c53:6141:39ea) (Quit: Leaving)
2026-03-23 11:03:19 +0000 <Freakie> i'll get back to you in 15 minutes
2026-03-23 11:05:33 +0000rbdr(~rbdr@2a02:3100:1b63:ff00:d17d:3312:8905:78a8) rbdr
2026-03-23 11:07:36 +0000rbdr(~rbdr@2a02:3100:1b63:ff00:d17d:3312:8905:78a8) (Client Quit)
2026-03-23 11:13:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 11:13:18 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@ai084147.d.east.v6connect.net)
2026-03-23 11:14:20 +0000divlamir(~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-03-23 11:14:35 +0000divlamir(~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir
2026-03-23 11:14:53 +0000 <Freakie> the dependencies are just package imports from cabal
2026-03-23 11:15:39 +0000 <Freakie> including ones maintained by the haskell org directly such as containers
2026-03-23 11:16:27 +0000 <[exa]> I'm still confused
2026-03-23 11:16:34 +0000 <[exa]> what command do you write there then?
2026-03-23 11:17:04 +0000 <[exa]> I assumed something like `gcc something.cpp -lmyhaskellib -lcontainers -Lsomewhere/deep/in/dist-newstyle/blah/bleh/containers/lib ....`
2026-03-23 11:17:29 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-03-23 11:17:54 +0000 <Freakie> well that's the thing
2026-03-23 11:18:04 +0000 <Freakie> the lib files are located wherever cabal installed them
2026-03-23 11:18:17 +0000 <Freakie> which is hell to keep track of
2026-03-23 11:18:46 +0000 <Freakie> one of the imports has 4 or so directories that each have a lib file for that package and I don't know which of those 4 is the one cabal uses
2026-03-23 11:19:03 +0000 <[exa]> what happens if you reverse the logic, put the cpp main() in a cabal project and just call it as the first thing from haskell main and let it do its own thing? (I assume that would push cabal to link it correctly by itself)
2026-03-23 11:19:25 +0000 <Freakie> will try
2026-03-23 11:19:41 +0000Enrico63(~Enrico63@host-79-18-154-39.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-03-23 11:20:08 +0000 <[exa]> btw might be helpful to wait for evening until more people wake up, I did this only in a remotely similar fashion, 2 times probably, and ended up working it around in both cases
2026-03-23 11:20:51 +0000 <Freakie> maybe, but as long as someone more informed than myself is around I can get nudged in the right direction
2026-03-23 11:21:21 +0000 <Freakie> also might be more prudent to save some energy for advice regarding why my program still uses 100x more memory than it should, if you recall me praying to the gods about that
2026-03-23 11:21:27 +0000 <[exa]> yeah, I meant, more such people would appear later today
2026-03-23 11:21:59 +0000 <[exa]> Freakie: is the 100x more like 1kB and 100kB or more like 1GB and 100GB?
2026-03-23 11:22:27 +0000 <Freakie> to give you an idea: for the smallest input sizes memory usage is the nursery size, more or less
2026-03-23 11:22:40 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-03-23 11:22:42 +0000 <Freakie> then it jumps from 6 mb, to 14, to 130, to 1-2 gb, to more than I have ram
2026-03-23 11:23:12 +0000 <[exa]> you might need a spraybottle of strictness annotations
2026-03-23 11:23:12 +0000 <Freakie> I tried using GHC.DataSize which has the size effect of doing garbage collection, but not the same way that System.Mem does
2026-03-23 11:24:16 +0000 <[exa]> if you have any data that you expect to be actually stored for some time (not just stream through some functions and disappear completely), add a lot of ! into them
2026-03-23 11:24:17 +0000 <Freakie> in other words, calculating the data size somehow reduces the live data from 1-2 gb to 20 mb (at the cost of runtimes that increased a thousanfold or something), while the native GC functions seemed to do anything
2026-03-23 11:24:41 +0000 <[exa]> yap that confirms it :D you force it, the thunks collapse
2026-03-23 11:25:17 +0000 <[exa]> cf. lazy foldl vs strict foldl'
2026-03-23 11:25:21 +0000 <Freakie> well I've tried strictifying (even strictifying everything) and it didn't do much
2026-03-23 11:25:24 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@2a02:2455:8656:7100:8944:14a8:1bde:2184)
2026-03-23 11:25:24 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@2a02:2455:8656:7100:8944:14a8:1bde:2184) (Changing host)
2026-03-23 11:25:24 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit
2026-03-23 11:25:39 +0000 <[exa]> try running with a profiler to see where the allocations happen
2026-03-23 11:25:45 +0000 <Freakie> I already know what and where
2026-03-23 11:25:47 +0000 <Freakie> just not why
2026-03-23 11:25:52 +0000 <[exa]> ah
2026-03-23 11:26:03 +0000 <[exa]> pastebin?
2026-03-23 11:26:07 +0000 <Freakie> the constructor tag is called CONSTR_NOCAF but I couldn't find anything on what makes it different from other types
2026-03-23 11:26:24 +0000 <[exa]> (not sure if the code is public-ish :D)
2026-03-23 11:26:33 +0000 <Freakie> well the repo is private
2026-03-23 11:26:39 +0000 <Freakie> do you want the code snippets or profiling?
2026-03-23 11:27:03 +0000 <[exa]> if you know which snippet causes it and you can paste it, it might help
2026-03-23 11:27:13 +0000 <Freakie> on it
2026-03-23 11:30:07 +0000 <[exa]> btw CONSTR_NOCAF is iirc "some constructor that didn't fit in the specialized tiny cases" so it's basically "just any data"
2026-03-23 11:30:47 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-03-23 11:30:58 +0000 <Freakie> just didn't know if the tag communicated something that might be used to troubleshoot or not
2026-03-23 11:31:02 +0000 <Freakie> https://pastebin.com/uB36SXJ2 hope this is enough context
2026-03-23 11:31:37 +0000 <Freakie> the function in question is called at the end of a loop iteration to transfer relevant information from a priority queue to the output
2026-03-23 11:31:50 +0000traxex(traxex@user/traxex) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-03-23 11:31:59 +0000 <[exa]> ahhh that's this code, I see
2026-03-23 11:32:59 +0000 <Freakie> the let bindings were an attempt to eliminate thunks but i dont think they do anything
2026-03-23 11:33:51 +0000 <Freakie> if you give me a sec i can show some profiling as well
2026-03-23 11:34:03 +0000 <[exa]> that seems flawless; maybe add a ! in front of `x` there becasue that's the only thing that might get thunkificated
2026-03-23 11:35:01 +0000 <Freakie> about 90% of the live data from heap profiling is `UnreducedArc`s though
2026-03-23 11:35:05 +0000 <[exa]> also you can use strict tuples (Data.Strict.Tuple) instd of the (# #) primitives, it's probably going to be the same but the strict tuples are somewhat less syntactically invasive
2026-03-23 11:35:34 +0000 <Freakie> the unboxed tuples are hell yeah but it's less the strictness and more the allocations themselves that bothered me
2026-03-23 11:35:45 +0000 <Freakie> i've been pretty conservative with doing it though
2026-03-23 11:36:19 +0000 <Freakie> I guess in theory the argument could be the issue
2026-03-23 11:36:25 +0000fp(~Thunderbi@130.233.70.34) fp
2026-03-23 11:37:54 +0000 <[exa]> oh no PtrNode actually forces the `x`, shouldn't be an issue
2026-03-23 11:39:20 +0000 <Freakie> any easy to way share png/svgs? I guess just imgur
2026-03-23 11:39:48 +0000 <[exa]> imgur is ok
2026-03-23 11:40:04 +0000 <[exa]> not sure if there are any better nowadays
2026-03-23 11:40:30 +0000 <Freakie> https://imgur.com/a/yiZl0CN
2026-03-23 11:40:51 +0000oskarw(~user@user/oskarw) (ERC 5.6.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.2))
2026-03-23 11:41:42 +0000 <Freakie> not sure what the STACK is unless it's just a plain old program stack
2026-03-23 11:42:50 +0000 <Freakie> i'm running a slightly larger input that shows the behavior more clearly
2026-03-23 11:43:03 +0000 <[exa]> continuation stack ("list of function invocations waiting for forced results")
2026-03-23 11:43:06 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@p549cb690.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) CiaoSen
2026-03-23 11:43:25 +0000 <[exa]> kinda hints that there's really an actual very deep force at the end
2026-03-23 11:43:35 +0000 <Freakie> https://imgur.com/a/e0uZSwU
2026-03-23 11:43:55 +0000karenw(~karenw@user/karenw) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-03-23 11:44:13 +0000 <Freakie> the first image had about 50 mb max residency profiled, this one has 900 mb
2026-03-23 11:44:36 +0000 <Freakie> so it looks like the stack gets kinda irrelevant on bigger data
2026-03-23 11:45:00 +0000 <[exa]> this looks like it might actually be exploding algorithmically
2026-03-23 11:45:07 +0000 <[exa]> as in, you're doing BFS there basically, right?
2026-03-23 11:45:23 +0000 <Freakie> no, a product combination of two lists
2026-03-23 11:45:36 +0000DragonMaus(~DragonMau@user/dragonmaus) DragonMaus
2026-03-23 11:45:36 +0000 <Freakie> they contain nodes ordered by level
2026-03-23 11:45:59 +0000 <[exa]> can you try tracing out the length of the LPQueue? Just to be super sure.
2026-03-23 11:46:10 +0000 <Freakie> I have before, it's not that suspicious
2026-03-23 11:46:16 +0000 <[exa]> ok
2026-03-23 11:46:25 +0000 <Freakie> it contains `Arc1`s btw
2026-03-23 11:46:37 +0000 <[exa]> might be that it copies them too much or something
2026-03-23 11:47:07 +0000 <Freakie> the peaks are a result of the way the inputs are generated so that's not really an issue
2026-03-23 11:47:33 +0000 <Freakie> and the valleys correspond to one full iteration of the algorithm (which is then stored to be combined with the next input)
2026-03-23 11:48:45 +0000 <Freakie> the priority queues and outputs should be roughly equal in complexity size, and the ridges show how much data is actually carried into the next iteration, as far as I can tell
2026-03-23 11:48:59 +0000 <[exa]> yeah that looks sensible
2026-03-23 11:49:05 +0000 <[exa]> which kind of queue is the LPQueue?
2026-03-23 11:49:09 +0000 <Freakie> Arc1s are fully expected to take a lot of space because they contain unresolved information
2026-03-23 11:49:13 +0000 <Freakie> in this case it's just a list of lists
2026-03-23 11:50:17 +0000 <Freakie> but this is a refinement from a previous version that used two priority queues of either Data.Set or a min heap from the pqueue package
2026-03-23 11:51:17 +0000 <[exa]> ok I assume the queue is not to blame then
2026-03-23 11:51:26 +0000 <[exa]> weird.
2026-03-23 11:51:30 +0000 <Freakie> no, but again the queues do not contain `UnreducedArc`s which are the issue
2026-03-23 11:52:01 +0000 <Freakie> what just fucks me is that manually forcing garbage collections does nothing (except explode the runtime) but measuring *anything* with GHC.DataSize collapses the memory consumption
2026-03-23 11:52:20 +0000 <[exa]> how do you "run" the outputInternalArcsPQ1?
2026-03-23 11:52:23 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2888-7906-f38b-8800-979e.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2026-03-23 11:52:35 +0000 <[exa]> anyway yeah that's the point of space leaks, if you force evaluate the data, the data disappears
2026-03-23 11:52:47 +0000 <Freakie> fair point I guess
2026-03-23 11:52:49 +0000 <[exa]> you might just `deepseq` instead of the DataSize, it will fix itself just as well
2026-03-23 11:53:05 +0000 <Freakie> I playing around with forcing but maybe I used it on the wrong argument
2026-03-23 11:53:20 +0000 <[exa]> btw a good strategy is to try to bisect the problem with deepseq in random places
2026-03-23 11:53:32 +0000 <[exa]> "good" as in "if everything else fails this gives hope"
2026-03-23 11:53:48 +0000 <[exa]> yeah I suspect there's something that slipped
2026-03-23 11:53:51 +0000 <Freakie> I feel like "good strategy" and "random places" is a dire symptom of what I'm doing here
2026-03-23 11:54:19 +0000 <Freakie> but I call the function (as well an equivalent one for another priority queue) just before recursion to the next iteration
2026-03-23 11:54:34 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-03-23 11:55:08 +0000 <Freakie> https://pastebin.com/Dztw40Dg
2026-03-23 11:55:37 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 11:55:47 +0000 <[exa]> which function do you use from the DataSize? the recursive one?
2026-03-23 11:55:55 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) rainbyte
2026-03-23 11:56:35 +0000 <Freakie> I mean I refactored it back to not use IO because I need purity but I tried playing with both recursiveSize and closureSize
2026-03-23 11:57:23 +0000 <[exa]> throw in this thing https://hackage.haskell.org/package/deepseq-1.4.8.1/docs/Control-DeepSeq.html#v:force
2026-03-23 11:57:27 +0000 <[exa]> see if it helps
2026-03-23 11:57:45 +0000 <[exa]> if it helps, search for more thunks :D
2026-03-23 11:57:48 +0000 <Freakie> think I'll try seeing if can `seq` my way out of it first
2026-03-23 11:58:25 +0000 <[exa]> btw it might be useful to get a normal profile from ghc (the one that gets generated from profiling build if you add +RTS -p)
2026-03-23 11:58:39 +0000 <Freakie> I have as well, it's just incompatible with some of the heap profiling
2026-03-23 11:58:54 +0000 <Freakie> the .prof output generally suggests that both halves of the algorithm are doing equal work in both time and allocations
2026-03-23 11:58:56 +0000 <[exa]> yeah well, it points to functions that call the allocations, which MIGHT correlate
2026-03-23 11:59:08 +0000 <Freakie> but the heap profiling is overwhelmingly biased from this one function
2026-03-23 12:00:10 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-03-23 12:04:15 +0000 <Freakie> huh, profiling with -hC shows two functions that make up 80% of the live data, but -p shows that they only account for like 2% of the allocations
2026-03-23 12:04:32 +0000 <Freakie> I mean that's obviously because the accumulator is the one leaking but still
2026-03-23 12:08:37 +0000 <Freakie> yeah force works but it's a *big* hammer
2026-03-23 12:11:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 12:14:23 +0000 <Freakie> I need to find something less intrusive than `force` because of how many iterations the algorithm makes (like millions of calls to the function) unfortunately
2026-03-23 12:14:43 +0000 <[exa]> try moving the `force` one level down
2026-03-23 12:14:54 +0000 <[exa]> depeper into expression or something
2026-03-23 12:15:18 +0000 <[exa]> that should allow you to locate the unevaluated data
2026-03-23 12:15:44 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-03-23 12:15:44 +0000 <[exa]> when you got that, you'll just add the missing ! that causes the issue
2026-03-23 12:17:07 +0000czan(~czan@user/mange) (Quit: Zzz...)
2026-03-23 12:17:48 +0000 <Freakie> i'm considering just adding another accumulator argument to the function that is built during the loop and then just appended to the rest of the accumulator
2026-03-23 12:18:14 +0000 <Freakie> that should at least reduce the work `force` needs to linear complexity
2026-03-23 12:20:17 +0000 <Freakie> ideally you should be able to just `seq` or `$! ` the accumulator/constructor as you thread it along but I can only assume that I'm doing it in the wrong places
2026-03-23 12:22:18 +0000 <Freakie> but are space leaks supposed to happen for data that isn't thunks?
2026-03-23 12:22:29 +0000 <Freakie> aren't thunks*
2026-03-23 12:26:38 +0000traxex(traxex@user/traxex) traxex
2026-03-23 12:28:07 +0000 <[exa]> yeah if all data is already forced, the "lazy" space leaks won't happen
2026-03-23 12:28:37 +0000 <Freakie> what i'm saying is there aren't any thunks (at least not any constructors tagged as such) taking that much space
2026-03-23 12:28:54 +0000 <[exa]> btw not sure if $! will help here -- it forces the argument, you probably want to force the result
2026-03-23 12:28:55 +0000 <Freakie> hence why I mentioned CONSTR_NOCAF and whether or not it might be a symptom
2026-03-23 12:29:26 +0000 <[exa]> yes the NOCAF corresponds to the label of your data types, probably of the Arc1
2026-03-23 12:29:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 12:29:31 +0000 <[exa]> btw all constructors start as thunks
2026-03-23 12:30:02 +0000 <[exa]> (essentially all non-trivial ones, that is)
2026-03-23 12:30:24 +0000 <Freakie> right but I'm saying that there aren't any thunk *constructors* so my question is whether or not CONSTR_NOCAF can be lazy in some other sense
2026-03-23 12:30:30 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2026-03-23 12:31:17 +0000 <[exa]> it might be that the unevaluated thunk just holds the CONSTR_NOCAF, not that the CONSTR_NOCAF is the issue
2026-03-23 12:31:58 +0000 <Freakie> wouldn't the heap profile still show a thunk somewhere? like my priority queues basically take 0 space on the heap because the elements are recorded separately
2026-03-23 12:32:37 +0000 <[exa]> not necessarily
2026-03-23 12:33:22 +0000 <[exa]> you might have a thunk that says something like `if something then xxx else yyy` with `something` already known ofc, but it just holds both `xxx` and `yyy` because the runtime didn't care to force it yet
2026-03-23 12:33:48 +0000 <[exa]> in your case the `xxx` or `yyy` might be a huge list of arcs or so
2026-03-23 12:34:18 +0000 <Freakie> think I basically need some heuristic to determine when to force if this is supposed to be feasible
2026-03-23 12:34:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 12:34:57 +0000 <[exa]> nah, you just need to find the expression that holds it :)
2026-03-23 12:35:10 +0000 <[exa]> that's the nitpicky part of the job, once identified it's easy
2026-03-23 12:35:42 +0000 <Freakie> that's kinda the thing though, I know exactly which lines of code produce the data
2026-03-23 12:35:58 +0000 <[exa]> try putting `force` in front of them and see if it fixes it
2026-03-23 12:36:03 +0000 <Freakie> already have
2026-03-23 12:36:18 +0000 <[exa]> did it help?
2026-03-23 12:36:24 +0000 <Freakie> problem is forcing the accumulator every single iteration kills performance
2026-03-23 12:36:39 +0000 <[exa]> ah so it's the accumulator `acc` right?
2026-03-23 12:36:45 +0000 <Freakie> yes
2026-03-23 12:36:56 +0000 <[exa]> try forcing just the stuff that goes into it (you're appending a head there right?)
2026-03-23 12:37:40 +0000 <[exa]> :t \x xs -> ((:) $! x) xs
2026-03-23 12:37:41 +0000 <lambdabot> a -> [a] -> [a]
2026-03-23 12:37:48 +0000 <[exa]> perhaps like this ^
2026-03-23 12:38:13 +0000 <Freakie> I have tried playing around with something similar but I think I did it the other way around
2026-03-23 12:38:26 +0000 <[exa]> yeah you don't want to deepseq the tail there
2026-03-23 12:38:40 +0000 <Freakie> no just normal `seq`
2026-03-23 12:38:53 +0000 <[exa]> ok that might work quickly
2026-03-23 12:39:03 +0000 <[exa]> but try `force` on the actual element
2026-03-23 12:39:39 +0000 <Freakie> but man some of these combinators twist my brain
2026-03-23 12:40:02 +0000 <[exa]> L35 here https://pastebin.com/uB36SXJ2 : `force arc` instd of `arc`
2026-03-23 12:40:32 +0000 <Freakie> but it's already been forced at the let expression? with strictness on teh lhs
2026-03-23 12:40:45 +0000 <[exa]> `force` is deep, ! is shallow
2026-03-23 12:41:04 +0000 <Freakie> but if the result has been forced, there shouldn't be more to unpack from it when appending?
2026-03-23 12:42:16 +0000 <[exa]> I know it doesn't make much sense logically but that's the issue with debugging, we're trying to find a minor inconsistency, the least assumptions you drag in the less probability that you assume yourself into longer debug
2026-03-23 12:42:58 +0000m1dnight(~m1dnight@d8D861A17.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-03-23 12:43:20 +0000 <[exa]> the exercise is "force helps globally and !s have failed" => "find the smallest piece of code where force helps locally and focus the !s there"
2026-03-23 12:44:15 +0000m1dnight(~m1dnight@d8D861A17.access.telenet.be) m1dnight
2026-03-23 12:44:17 +0000 <Freakie> honestly seems like nothing works
2026-03-23 12:44:27 +0000 <[exa]> except for the global force on the accumulator?
2026-03-23 12:44:45 +0000 <Freakie> pretty much
2026-03-23 12:45:13 +0000 <[exa]> can you try wrapping the accumulator call in something that does `nf` on the result of it?
2026-03-23 12:45:25 +0000Vizious(~bes@user/Vizious) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-03-23 12:46:04 +0000Vizious(~bes@user/Vizious) Vizious
2026-03-23 12:46:08 +0000 <Freakie> do you mean `rnf` or is it some other package?
2026-03-23 12:46:17 +0000 <[exa]> as in: outputInternalArcsPQ1' pq1 req x acc = id $! outputInternalArcsPQ1 pq1 req x acc
2026-03-23 12:46:27 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 12:46:53 +0000 <Freakie> seems my catchphrase today is "will try"
2026-03-23 12:46:59 +0000haritz(~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000:d5af:a266:ca31:5ef8)
2026-03-23 12:46:59 +0000haritz(~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000:d5af:a266:ca31:5ef8) (Changing host)
2026-03-23 12:46:59 +0000haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz
2026-03-23 12:47:12 +0000[exa]afk teaching
2026-03-23 12:47:14 +0000 <[exa]> good luck :)
2026-03-23 12:48:33 +0000 <Freakie> I also managed to find the worst of both worlds by trying to force the list at the end of the global loop iteration which had the effect of ballooning the runtime without reducing the heap data
2026-03-23 12:49:01 +0000 <Freakie> which at least supports the behavior
2026-03-23 12:50:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-03-23 12:52:42 +0000 <Freakie> it's interesting to see how the garbage collection time gets completely dwarfed when forcing things though
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2026-03-23 18:15:06 +0000 <monochrom> Generally, if you don't troubleshoot your code until it's 1000 lines long, nothing will work.
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2026-03-23 18:46:20 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit
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2026-03-23 18:51:30 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-03-23 18:51:36 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> nice debugging chat
2026-03-23 19:04:07 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@2a02:2455:8656:7100:8944:14a8:1bde:2184)
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2026-03-23 19:04:07 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit
2026-03-23 19:04:36 +0000ft(~ft@p508db341.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2026-03-23 19:07:56 +0000target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) target_i
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2026-03-23 19:20:02 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit
2026-03-23 19:24:35 +0000 <raincomplex> "untested code doesn't work"
2026-03-23 19:24:58 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-03-23 19:24:58 +0000 <raincomplex> good rule of thumb ime
2026-03-23 19:33:43 +0000hololeap(~quassel@user/hololeap) (Quit: Bye)
2026-03-23 19:36:15 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit
2026-03-23 19:40:19 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@88-114-89-88.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
2026-03-23 19:40:53 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-03-23 19:51:24 +0000 <bwe> Reader Monad: f :: a -> Reader b; g :: b -> Reader c; how do I properly call f from within g? I mean, is there a better way than calling runReader in `g`?
2026-03-23 19:51:47 +0000wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-03-23 19:52:38 +0000Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-03-23 19:53:07 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-03-23 19:55:28 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit
2026-03-23 19:55:29 +0000Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2026-03-23 19:58:02 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> If you have ReaderT you can stack them (Reader is usually something like ReaderT Identity).
2026-03-23 20:00:44 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-03-23 20:01:17 +0000 <bwe> ijouw: how do I stack them?
2026-03-23 20:12:26 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-03-23 20:13:48 +0000 <probie> bwe: What's wrong with calling `runReader`? It's "free"
2026-03-23 20:14:25 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Monad_transformers
2026-03-23 20:15:12 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@2a02:2455:8656:7100:8944:14a8:1bde:2184)
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2026-03-23 20:15:12 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit
2026-03-23 20:16:48 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-03-23 20:16:59 +0000chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-03-23 20:17:21 +0000 <probie> If you strip away newtypes, `Reader r a` is just (r -> a). What is unnatural about providing an argument to a function?
2026-03-23 20:21:24 +0000 <bwe> …as of now I am used to: `d <- ask; ... runReaderT d f` how can I do it without the ask and `runReaderT d` wrapping?
2026-03-23 20:22:42 +0000 <mauke> :t runReaderT
2026-03-23 20:22:43 +0000 <lambdabot> ReaderT r m a -> r -> m a
2026-03-23 20:23:15 +0000 <mauke> :t do { d <- ask; runReaderT d ?f }
2026-03-23 20:23:16 +0000 <lambdabot> (MonadReader (ReaderT r m b) m, ?f::r) => m b
2026-03-23 20:23:32 +0000elarks(~elarks@user/yerrii) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.1)
2026-03-23 20:24:00 +0000 <mauke> what
2026-03-23 20:25:26 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-03-23 20:25:38 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ijouw> Is that a new way to introduce r with f :: r
2026-03-23 20:26:55 +0000 <[exa]> sm: iz not, we didn't find it ;_;
2026-03-23 20:27:58 +0000oxapentane(~oxapentan@user/oxapentane) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-03-23 20:28:29 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> still, some educational discussion!
2026-03-23 20:30:19 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> it's very hard for a non-expert human reading code to see all the places laziness can bite
2026-03-23 20:30:32 +0000elarks(~elarks@user/yerrii) yerrii
2026-03-23 20:30:33 +0000 <bwe> mauke: I messed up the function call, correct should be: runReaderT (f a) d
2026-03-23 20:30:49 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> though bite is not quite the right word
2026-03-23 20:31:07 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> all the leaky bits
2026-03-23 20:31:50 +0000 <mauke> that's still the wrong reader type
2026-03-23 20:32:22 +0000 <mauke> you got d from the outer reader context ("Reader c"), but you're using it as the inner reader context ("Reader b")
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2026-03-23 20:45:44 +0000jcarpenter2(~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b980:c8e1:97f3:4027:d729)
2026-03-23 20:45:47 +0000lol_(~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b980:c8e1:97f3:4027:d729)
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2026-03-23 20:46:54 +0000koala_man(~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-03-23 20:47:01 +0000craunts795335385(~craunts@152.32.99.2) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
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2026-03-23 20:48:27 +0000koala_man(~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com) koala_man
2026-03-23 21:00:26 +0000 <monochrom> @type withReader
2026-03-23 21:00:26 +0000 <lambdabot> (r' -> r) -> Reader r a -> Reader r' a
2026-03-23 21:04:57 +0000koala_man(~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-03-23 21:11:55 +0000koala_man(~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com) koala_man
2026-03-23 21:11:59 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> Rob Pike's rules of programming: https://www.cs.unc.edu/~stotts/COMP590-059-f24/robsrules.html
2026-03-23 21:12:42 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
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2026-03-23 22:28:32 +0000ChanServ+v haskellbridge
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