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2026-02-15 00:08:38 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 00:11:01 +0000Square2(~Square@user/square) Square
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2026-02-15 01:04:06 +0000housemate(~housemate@202.7.248.67) (Quit: https://ineedsomeacidtocalmmedown.space/)
2026-02-15 01:04:58 +0000 <lantti> oh, QuickCheck function "oneof" is actually "oneof" instead of "oneOf"... This strangely annoys me more than it should
2026-02-15 01:06:46 +0000housemate(~housemate@202.7.248.67) housemate
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2026-02-15 01:17:09 +0000omidmash2(~omidmash@user/omidmash) omidmash
2026-02-15 01:17:10 +0000 <humasect> agree
2026-02-15 01:19:11 +0000 <Lears> It's `sizeofFoo` that gets me every time.
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2026-02-15 01:20:53 +0000 <humasect> oreof
2026-02-15 01:21:05 +0000 <humasect> sizEofBar
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2026-02-15 06:09:00 +0000 <jreicher> ski: I've been pondering the Cook paper you posted a few days ago. It's interesting. Does it represent the "latest" on the topic? I saw another paper by Cook on a similar topic with a slightly different presentation.
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2026-02-15 06:23:53 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-02-15 06:39:27 +0000 <ski> it's a relatively old paper. but some of the ideas (like different uses of existentials, for object-orientation vs. abstract data types) are also in e.g. TaPL
2026-02-15 06:39:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 06:39:54 +0000 <ski> ooc, what was the other paper ?
2026-02-15 06:40:24 +0000 <ski> @where TaPL
2026-02-15 06:40:24 +0000 <lambdabot> "Types and Programming Languages" by Benjamin C. Pierce in 2002-02-01 at <https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/tapl/>
2026-02-15 06:41:52 +0000karenw_(~karenw@user/karenw) karenw
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2026-02-15 07:00:30 +0000caubert(~caubert@user/caubert) caubert
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2026-02-15 07:10:20 +0000 <jreicher> https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~wcook/papers/OOPvsADT/CookOOPvsADT90.pdf
2026-02-15 07:10:48 +0000 <jreicher> I think he might have hit upon the idea of using lambda calculus expressions for object-as-closures after this.
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2026-02-15 09:47:50 +0000hakutaku(~textual@user/hakutaku) hakutaku
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2026-02-15 10:05:19 +0000srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) srazkvt
2026-02-15 10:06:07 +0000ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2026-02-15 10:11:27 +0000Guest83(~Guest83@182.48.209.54)
2026-02-15 10:12:52 +0000 <Guest83> Hello
2026-02-15 10:14:37 +0000 <ski> hullo
2026-02-15 10:15:02 +0000 <Guest83> New to Haskell
2026-02-15 10:15:19 +0000 <Guest83> Tried Ocaml but found it difficult
2026-02-15 10:15:20 +0000 <fgarcia> putStrLn "hi!"
2026-02-15 10:15:43 +0000 <ski> % putStrLn "hi!"
2026-02-15 10:15:43 +0000 <yahb2> hi!
2026-02-15 10:15:54 +0000 <Guest83> Awesome way of saying Hi
2026-02-15 10:16:04 +0000 <ski> do you have access to some introductory learning material ?
2026-02-15 10:16:15 +0000wickedjargon(~user@2605:8d80:5431:85d9:cfea:c35e:7de8:a913) wickedjargon
2026-02-15 10:16:35 +0000 <Guest83> I am on the getting started page of Haskell
2026-02-15 10:17:04 +0000 <ski> do you know any other programming language ?
2026-02-15 10:17:10 +0000 <Guest83> Yes Python
2026-02-15 10:17:35 +0000 <ski> if you're new to functional programming, it will be a bit like learning to program from scratch all over again
2026-02-15 10:17:52 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 10:17:59 +0000 <Guest83> Read about good things of functional programming so thought of giving it a try
2026-02-15 10:18:21 +0000 <ski> the book "Haskell : The Craft of Functional Programming" by Simon Thompson is a nice intro
2026-02-15 10:18:23 +0000 <Guest83> I don't mind learning from scratch
2026-02-15 10:18:27 +0000 <ski> there's other nice books, as well
2026-02-15 10:18:39 +0000 <Guest83> Great Ski. Thanks for the guidance
2026-02-15 10:20:02 +0000 <ski> you could try "Learn You a Haskell for Great Good!" <https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/>, if you want. it covers basics
2026-02-15 10:20:09 +0000 <ski> doesn't have exercises, though
2026-02-15 10:20:15 +0000 <ski> @where CIS194
2026-02-15 10:20:15 +0000 <lambdabot> <https://github.com/byorgey/haskell-course>,<https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html>
2026-02-15 10:20:23 +0000 <ski> is a course, which has exercises you can try
2026-02-15 10:20:52 +0000 <ski> oh, and you can ask here, if you have questions about particular things
2026-02-15 10:21:17 +0000 <ski> (do note that it may at times take a little while for people to notice your question, so i'd recommend waiting at least half an hour)
2026-02-15 10:22:14 +0000 <Guest83> Sure, Ski. Much appreciated. Do you all use the same nicknames?
2026-02-15 10:22:46 +0000 <ski> most people tend to stick to one (or sometimes a few) nicknames
2026-02-15 10:23:06 +0000 <ski> well, at least people who stick around, keep chatting, here
2026-02-15 10:23:10 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-02-15 10:23:24 +0000 <ski> if you type in
2026-02-15 10:23:33 +0000 <ski> /nick myNewNickname
2026-02-15 10:23:39 +0000 <ski> it should change your nickname
2026-02-15 10:24:29 +0000 <srazkvt> i have a few usernames i switch between, either this username, or a variant of it, or just my first name for more casual chats with friends
2026-02-15 10:24:48 +0000 <srazkvt> but i don't go much outside of those
2026-02-15 10:24:59 +0000 <Guest83> Thank you, Ski. I am liking the functional programming approach. I hope I stick around with Haskell for long because i easily get demotivated if I hit a roadblock in my learning.
2026-02-15 10:25:42 +0000 <ski> asking people for help can be quite useful, when you'tr stumbling over something
2026-02-15 10:26:24 +0000 <Guest83> I found this resource. Looks like a good start https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis1940/spring13/lectures/01-intro.html
2026-02-15 10:26:43 +0000 <ski> yea, that's the first lecture of the CIS194 course
2026-02-15 10:26:47 +0000divlamir(~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 10:26:51 +0000 <srazkvt> yea, from my experience haskell people are generally nice when it comes to helping out newcomers
2026-02-15 10:27:01 +0000divlamir(~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir
2026-02-15 10:27:07 +0000 <ski> (well, maybe a variant of it ? .. "1940" ?)
2026-02-15 10:27:42 +0000 <Guest83> Thank you for making me feel so welcome here. I am curious to start my journey.
2026-02-15 10:28:16 +0000 <ski> you're welcome
2026-02-15 10:33:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 10:34:11 +0000wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving)
2026-02-15 10:35:11 +0000 <tomsmeding> probie: the playground now has experimental support for {-# OPTIONS -fllvm #-}
2026-02-15 10:35:24 +0000srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 10:35:48 +0000srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) srazkvt
2026-02-15 10:36:52 +0000wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot
2026-02-15 10:39:07 +0000 <Guest83> Guys thank you for your help. I will come back with m learnings shortly
2026-02-15 10:40:30 +0000 <tomsmeding> I guess also int-e ^ :p
2026-02-15 10:40:46 +0000 <tomsmeding> bug reports welcome
2026-02-15 10:40:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-02-15 10:41:16 +0000ames(~amelia@offtopia/offtopian/amelia) {ames}
2026-02-15 10:41:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> it has only llvm 15 for now, which means it ought to work for GHC >= 9.6
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2026-02-15 12:01:55 +0000fun-safe-math(~fun-safe-@97.115.234.213) ()
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2026-02-15 17:11:15 +0000 <monochrom> I hit roadblocks in my learning too. But they tend to disappear after 5 years, and I would be like "this is obvious, why didn't I understand it 5 years ago?!" :)
2026-02-15 17:14:33 +0000notzmv(~umar@user/notzmv) notzmv
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2026-02-15 19:11:07 +0000 <jreicher> ski: I have a problem with this Cook paper. The model of OO presented here, being based on closures and expressible in lambda calculus, is something that can be done Haskell, but I don't think that's how many people use the term "OO" or think of Haskell. I agree completely with the main point ADTs vs objects, but I suspect it should be explained using a word other than "object", because (IMO) an essential part of OO programming (in
2026-02-15 19:11:08 +0000 <jreicher> mainstream languages) is the ability to break referential transparency by having direct control over mutable state.
2026-02-15 19:12:11 +0000wickedjargon(~user@24.83.46.194) wickedjargon
2026-02-15 19:15:44 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-02-15 19:23:15 +0000myme(~myme@2a01:799:d5e:5f00:1efd:1fab:dfd5:7518) myme
2026-02-15 19:25:54 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 19:27:01 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2026-02-15 19:30:56 +0000emmanuelux_(~em@92-184-96-253.mobile.fr.orangecustomers.net) (Quit: bye)
2026-02-15 19:31:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 19:32:00 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2026-02-15 19:32:07 +0000EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) EvanR
2026-02-15 19:33:14 +0000prdak(~Thunderbi@user/prdak) prdak
2026-02-15 19:33:28 +0000 <EvanR> jreicher, this is arguably the main issue with OOP as a subject, that people can't agree on what it entails. So in the end it's just easier to discuss the subject matter itself
2026-02-15 19:34:12 +0000 <EvanR> attempt to define the terminology jargon "once and for all" is boiling an ocean
2026-02-15 19:34:35 +0000 <EvanR> I don't envy someone with a dog in that race xD
2026-02-15 19:34:49 +0000oats(~oats@user/oats) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 19:35:05 +0000oats(~oats@user/oats) oats
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2026-02-15 19:44:32 +0000Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2026-02-15 19:45:54 +0000Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2026-02-15 19:47:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 19:49:50 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: bye)
2026-02-15 19:50:56 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2026-02-15 19:52:17 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-02-15 19:59:55 +0000 <EvanR> wow... you can't use the field name "class" ?
2026-02-15 20:00:18 +0000 <int-e> it is a keyword
2026-02-15 20:00:20 +0000KindFoxo(~KindFoxo@user/KindoFoxo) KindoFoxo
2026-02-15 20:00:58 +0000 <EvanR> and jreicher is trying to claim we're not OOP xD
2026-02-15 20:01:23 +0000 <int-e> trait carefully, or something
2026-02-15 20:01:58 +0000 <EvanR> *attempts to get around it with NoFieldSelectors
2026-02-15 20:03:17 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-02-15 20:03:20 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 20:03:23 +0000 <EvanR> doesn't work, though it would see that would avoid syntactic collisions
2026-02-15 20:05:35 +0000 <geekosaur> I think there's an unimplemented-as-yet proposal for keywords and such to be usable as fields disambiguated by the overloaded dot
2026-02-15 20:06:16 +0000 <int-e> > let clаss = 42 in clаss
2026-02-15 20:06:17 +0000 <lambdabot> 42
2026-02-15 20:06:28 +0000 <int-e> (you can always play dirty)
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2026-02-15 20:14:28 +0000notzmv(~umar@user/notzmv) notzmv
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2026-02-15 20:21:59 +0000notzmv(~umar@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-02-15 20:23:44 +0000 <monochrom> Coding OO in Haskell becomes annoying once you start subclassing. (Too much boilerplate.)
2026-02-15 20:24:04 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-02-15 20:25:45 +0000 <larsivi> Still learning Haskell here, trying some stuff where I want to return a couple of operations in Left and something else in Right, so like this: Left ((+1):(+0)) However, it fails since +1 and +0 are not the same type. Is there some way yo make this into a more generic type? (in addition to addition, I also have subtractions)
2026-02-15 20:26:53 +0000 <[exa]> larsivi: use Left [(+1),(+0)]? the issue is likely the type of (:), it requires a list on the right
2026-02-15 20:27:11 +0000 <[exa]> or Left ((+1),(+0)) if you're sure there's always an exact couple
2026-02-15 20:27:37 +0000 <[exa]> :t ((+1),(+0))
2026-02-15 20:27:37 +0000 <lambdabot> (Num a1, Num a2) => (a1 -> a1, a2 -> a2)
2026-02-15 20:27:42 +0000 <[exa]> :t [(+1),(+0)]
2026-02-15 20:27:43 +0000 <lambdabot> Num a => [a -> a]
2026-02-15 20:29:28 +0000 <[exa]> (btw you could do something like (+1):[(+0)] to make it work with : , but that doesn't quite look like what you'd want to do)
2026-02-15 20:30:31 +0000 <larsivi> exa: In the next step I want to pattern match op1:op2, how does that work with a pair?
2026-02-15 20:30:58 +0000 <[exa]> (op1,op2)
2026-02-15 20:31:06 +0000 <monochrom> If you have a pair, the pattern is (p,q). If you have a list of length 2, the pattern is [p,q].
2026-02-15 20:31:23 +0000 <larsivi> nice, thanks
2026-02-15 20:31:50 +0000ss4(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot
2026-02-15 20:34:53 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 20:36:30 +0000karenw_(~karenw@user/karenw) karenw
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2026-02-15 20:43:05 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2026-02-15 20:47:42 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 20:48:01 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2026-02-15 20:48:52 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 20:49:10 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2026-02-15 20:50:02 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 20:50:19 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2026-02-15 20:51:18 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 20:51:26 +0000 <larsivi> Ok, still not fully in place, I now get (only for negative ops): error: [GHC-39999]
2026-02-15 20:51:28 +0000 <larsivi> • No instance for ‘Num (Int -> Int)’
2026-02-15 20:51:30 +0000 <larsivi> arising from a use of syntactic negation
2026-02-15 20:51:32 +0000 <larsivi> (maybe you haven't applied a function to enough arguments?)
2026-02-15 20:52:21 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 20:52:58 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2026-02-15 20:56:05 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-02-15 20:56:31 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 20:56:47 +0000 <larsivi> Ah, the unary negation operator - fixed it with wrapping (-)
2026-02-15 20:56:57 +0000dtman34(~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) dtman34
2026-02-15 20:56:58 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2026-02-15 20:58:52 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-02-15 20:59:28 +0000emmanuelux(~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
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2026-02-15 21:05:35 +0000 <monochrom> There is also subtract, i.e., subtract 5 = \x -> x - 5
2026-02-15 21:07:05 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 21:08:42 +0000stefan-__(~m-yh2rcc@42dots.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-02-15 21:09:53 +0000Vizious(~bes@user/Vizious) Vizious
2026-02-15 21:10:28 +0000 <larsivi> Yeah, I saw, but this was shorter :)
2026-02-15 21:12:01 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2026-02-15 21:22:53 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-02-15 21:27:21 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) (Quit: nyaa~)
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2026-02-15 21:38:40 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-02-15 21:41:33 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: kdanl)
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2026-02-15 21:43:54 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) siracusa
2026-02-15 21:44:06 +0000 <larsivi> But it turned out that (-)1 didn't actually do anything, so had to use subtract 1 instead. Something I did wrong there?
2026-02-15 21:45:31 +0000 <int-e> > (-) 1 4
2026-02-15 21:45:32 +0000 <lambdabot> -3
2026-02-15 21:45:36 +0000 <monochrom> (-) 5 = \y -> (-) 5 y = \y -> 5 - y. sutract 5 = \y -> y - 5
2026-02-15 21:45:37 +0000 <int-e> > flip (-) 1 4
2026-02-15 21:45:38 +0000 <lambdabot> 3
2026-02-15 21:45:46 +0000 <int-e> > (-1+) 4
2026-02-15 21:45:47 +0000 <lambdabot> 3
2026-02-15 21:46:02 +0000 <int-e> (scnr)
2026-02-15 21:46:47 +0000 <mauke> > pred 4
2026-02-15 21:46:48 +0000 <lambdabot> 3
2026-02-15 21:46:50 +0000 <int-e> anyway, (-) 1 does *something*.
2026-02-15 21:46:54 +0000 <dcb> I don't think you can make (-) into a section (without `flip`, or as mentioned, `subtract`)
2026-02-15 21:47:36 +0000 <mauke> > - - 1
2026-02-15 21:47:37 +0000 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: error: parse error on input `-'
2026-02-15 21:47:58 +0000 <mauke> > 1--1
2026-02-15 21:47:59 +0000 <lambdabot> 1
2026-02-15 21:48:07 +0000 <monochrom> heh
2026-02-15 21:48:26 +0000 <monochrom> > - negate 1
2026-02-15 21:48:27 +0000 <lambdabot> 1
2026-02-15 21:48:54 +0000 <monochrom> Haskell is so negative! So many ways to say subtraction. >:)
2026-02-15 21:51:40 +0000 <mauke> > id 0 --user
2026-02-15 21:51:41 +0000 <lambdabot> 0
2026-02-15 21:51:53 +0000 <larsivi> I returned stuff like [(+1), ((-)1)] that type checked against [Int -> Int]. I was able to [op1,op2] ==> foo (op1 x) (op2 y), but the value was not changed with the subtraction unless I rewrote it to (subtract 1).
2026-02-15 21:52:41 +0000 <mauke> that's equivalent to [(1+), (1-)]
2026-02-15 21:53:11 +0000 <larsivi> ah, so it is the order that is wrong?
2026-02-15 21:54:00 +0000 <monochrom> If x=1/2, then 1-x = x, so (1-) looks like doing nothing.
2026-02-15 21:54:17 +0000 <mauke> > sequence [(1+), (1-)] 42
2026-02-15 21:54:18 +0000 <lambdabot> [43,-41]
2026-02-15 21:54:33 +0000 <mauke> > sequence [(+1), ((-) 1)] 42
2026-02-15 21:54:34 +0000 <lambdabot> [43,-41]
2026-02-15 21:54:59 +0000 <larsivi> yeah, that turns out to negate the result
2026-02-15 21:55:23 +0000lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2026-02-15 21:55:33 +0000 <int-e> a - b = -(b - a) is elementary
2026-02-15 21:55:36 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-02-15 21:56:18 +0000 <mauke> (-) x = (\y -> x - y)
2026-02-15 22:02:08 +0000 <larsivi> ok, so slowly starting to understand this :) At least I have something that works. Thanks again!
2026-02-15 22:03:10 +0000 <monochrom> @pl \y -> negate (1 - y)
2026-02-15 22:03:10 +0000 <lambdabot> negate . (-) 1
2026-02-15 22:03:13 +0000 <monochrom> >:)
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2026-02-15 22:06:48 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-02-15 23:22:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-02-15 23:59:04 +0000troydm(~troydm@user/troydm) (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
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