2025/01/30

2025-01-30 00:00:47 +0000 <jackdk> I'm partial to "A parser for things is a function from String, to Maybe the thing and the leftover String"
2025-01-30 00:02:00 +0000 <glguy> "The only place I’ve seen it being used is in ..." \o/
2025-01-30 00:02:15 +0000mange(~user@user/mange) mange
2025-01-30 00:03:10 +0000 <int-e> now try to make that work with the fail/tail rhyme
2025-01-30 00:03:29 +0000noctux(~noctux@user/noctux) noctux
2025-01-30 00:04:18 +0000TMA(tma@twin.jikos.cz) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 00:04:22 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Axman6> glguy You're pretty much famous
2025-01-30 00:06:37 +0000dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in)
2025-01-30 00:09:07 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
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2025-01-30 00:15:24 +0000dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) dolio
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2025-01-30 00:18:17 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-01-30 00:30:55 +0000ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2025-01-30 01:36:13 +0000ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-01-30 01:37:21 +0000monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-30 01:37:22 +0000monochrmmonochrom
2025-01-30 01:41:48 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 01:43:11 +0000Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) Feuermagier
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2025-01-30 01:55:00 +0000ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-01-30 01:55:48 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-01-30 01:56:12 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-30 01:57:13 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 01:57:24 +0000 <ColinRobinson> because this is a publicly logged channel, clarifying my use of 'factitious" the last time I spoke here was not meant in the English sense, at least the one that shows in web dictionary entries but rathter the one that shows for 'facticity' w or w/o sartre
2025-01-30 01:58:24 +0000 <ColinRobinson> *rather
2025-01-30 01:58:34 +0000ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Client Quit)
2025-01-30 01:59:40 +0000 <EvanR> are these words actually cromulent
2025-01-30 02:01:38 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 02:01:41 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f46c5769c4c50fc7d32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-01-30 02:03:35 +0000ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-01-30 02:05:35 +0000fired_(la@2600:3c00::f03c:92ff:fee3:aace)
2025-01-30 02:05:37 +0000Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-30 02:05:38 +0000fired(LA@2600:3c00::f03c:92ff:fee3:aace) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2025-01-30 02:06:12 +0000 <ColinRobinson> aiui, 'cromulent' is a nonce without meaning other than as a meme for a nonsense term. Neither of the terms i referred to has that character. Factitious as it is being reported is the exact opposite of the deadly srsness I intend for this persona.
2025-01-30 02:06:42 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-30 02:07:07 +0000Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@142.147.89.199) Jeanne-Kamikaze
2025-01-30 02:07:08 +0000monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 02:07:40 +0000monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146)
2025-01-30 02:07:40 +0000Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) pyon
2025-01-30 02:09:11 +0000 <EvanR> ColinRobinson or JuanDaugherty?
2025-01-30 02:09:27 +0000 <ColinRobinson> ColinRobinson
2025-01-30 02:09:29 +0000 <EvanR> familiar with one nick not the other
2025-01-30 02:11:10 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-01-30 02:11:16 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-30 02:12:36 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 02:14:18 +0000 <ColinRobinson> the quit text leads to an explanation (catalog of identities) if u havent already seen.
2025-01-30 02:16:14 +0000ColinRobinsonJuanDaugherty
2025-01-30 02:17:21 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-30 02:17:29 +0000tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) tavare
2025-01-30 02:18:59 +0000 <JuanDaugherty> it's possible I may give it some use/role in ##haskell-nlp , it's a rich role as far as automating a persona is concerned, more bot like and this one I intend to have the prolog nature and the one sofar assigned the haskell nature i've decided not to run externally
2025-01-30 02:20:19 +0000brachyrhynchos(~brachyrhy@user/brachyrhynchos) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 02:21:53 +0000 <EvanR> the quit text read "Client Quit"
2025-01-30 02:22:16 +0000 <EvanR> you're a bot?
2025-01-30 02:23:03 +0000 <JuanDaugherty> not unless i'm marked away
2025-01-30 02:23:55 +0000JuanDaughertyis never away in effect
2025-01-30 02:24:06 +0000 <EvanR> o_O
2025-01-30 02:24:10 +0000 <JuanDaugherty> when present
2025-01-30 02:25:47 +0000 <JuanDaugherty> it looks like nick grouping foils the client quit message, checking
2025-01-30 02:25:55 +0000JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-01-30 02:26:31 +0000Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 02:27:58 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 02:29:05 +0000 <talismanick> For a function as ubiquitous as `traverse`, I'm surprised there isn't an infix shorthand
2025-01-30 02:37:18 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f46c5769c4c50fc7d32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2025-01-30 02:43:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> It's easier to associate it with "for" that way I guess
2025-01-30 02:44:47 +0000tuxpaint(~a@put.gay) (Quit: gn)
2025-01-30 02:45:06 +0000tuxpaint(~a@2600:3c06::f03c:93ff:fea6:ef0e)
2025-01-30 02:46:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 02:46:37 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-30 02:48:33 +0000 <talismanick> `for` is nice if you're mimicking procedural langs with do-notation or simply want to spare your eyes a spurious `flip`, but I wish it was visually distinct like how `<$>` is to `fmap`
2025-01-30 02:48:56 +0000 <talismanick> `<*$>`, maybe?
2025-01-30 02:49:54 +0000 <talismanick> `<$>>=` looks nicer, but it's not just `mapM` anymore
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2025-01-30 03:08:11 +0000pie__(~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) ()
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2025-01-30 03:47:37 +0000Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@142.147.89.199) (Quit: Leaving)
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2025-01-30 04:07:16 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 04:07:49 +0000 <monochrom> @type traverse
2025-01-30 04:07:50 +0000 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
2025-01-30 04:10:38 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah something like <*$> or <$*>
2025-01-30 04:11:22 +0000 <monochrom> Note that our traverse is called flip map in impure functional languages for a certain f and a certain t. >:)
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2025-01-30 04:57:56 +0000PotatoGim(sid99505@id-99505.lymington.irccloud.com) PotatoGim
2025-01-30 05:04:19 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 05:08:50 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-1666-e945-fd21-b920-9aa7.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
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2025-01-30 05:11:12 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> geekosaur: no, ghcup doesn't overwrite itself by default
2025-01-30 05:11:36 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> and no sane package manager places binaries in HOME
2025-01-30 05:13:29 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-30 05:13:37 +0000monochrm(trebla@216.138.220.146)
2025-01-30 05:13:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> yin: ghcup itself has no dependencies other than "curl" or "wget". The dependencies that you mean are for _GHC_. So someone packaging ghcup properly would _not_ add those dependencies to the ghcup package.
2025-01-30 05:13:57 +0000monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-30 05:13:57 +0000monochrmmonochrom
2025-01-30 05:13:59 +0000monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146) (Client Quit)
2025-01-30 05:15:50 +0000euouae(~euouae@user/euouae) euouae
2025-01-30 05:16:14 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> You can try: <package-manager> install $(ghcup tool-requirements -r)
2025-01-30 05:16:32 +0000 <euouae> Hello functions of the type Functor f => f a -> f b, what are they called?
2025-01-30 05:16:48 +0000 <euouae> are they functor transformers? natural transformations?
2025-01-30 05:19:01 +0000 <geekosaur> the package manager doesn't but rustup does
2025-01-30 05:19:47 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> yes, that's why they don't interfere with each other
2025-01-30 05:20:02 +0000 <geekosaur> that was the point I was trying to make
2025-01-30 05:20:41 +0000 <geekosaur> as distinct from older pip which happily would overwrite system packages and break stuff
2025-01-30 05:21:10 +0000 <euouae> pip and weep
2025-01-30 05:23:01 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-30 05:24:13 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 05:24:46 +0000 <geekosaur> Fedora gave up some years back and started shipping a private python install for yum/dnf to use so people upgrading system packages didn't break it
2025-01-30 05:26:04 +0000monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146)
2025-01-30 05:27:49 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 05:28:23 +0000 <euouae> debian has some block & banner too for it
2025-01-30 05:28:59 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 05:29:00 +0000 <euouae> error: externally-managed-environment is how it starts... 20 line paragraph error
2025-01-30 05:35:20 +0000tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-30 05:35:24 +0000tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 05:35:24 +0000tnt2tnt1
2025-01-30 05:39:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 05:41:41 +0000euouae(~euouae@user/euouae) ()
2025-01-30 05:43:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-30 05:48:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 05:48:53 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.197)
2025-01-30 05:49:32 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-01-30 05:55:14 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 05:57:44 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-30 06:02:24 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 06:03:31 +0000takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be)
2025-01-30 06:03:34 +0000j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-30 06:06:25 +0000ft(~ft@p3e9bcd97.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
2025-01-30 06:06:37 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 06:06:51 +0000j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-30 06:12:46 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:241:f200:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen
2025-01-30 06:14:51 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-30 06:18:27 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Axman6> @irc_libera.chat_euouae I've generally seen "(forall a. f a -> g a)" being referred to as natural transformations
2025-01-30 06:18:57 +0000 <Axman6> ew... ok, the default formatting used by matrix is bad in IRC. oops
2025-01-30 06:25:44 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 06:25:57 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 06:26:17 +0000 <int-e> haskellbridge: it's fine ;-)
2025-01-30 06:27:54 +0000monochrm(trebla@216.138.220.146)
2025-01-30 06:28:34 +0000monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 06:28:34 +0000monochrmmonochrom
2025-01-30 06:30:36 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-01-30 06:31:18 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-30 06:31:31 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-142-040.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2025-01-30 06:32:25 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Axman6> :(
2025-01-30 06:41:20 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 06:41:24 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 06:43:04 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-142-040.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 06:43:42 +0000MyNetAz(~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) MyNetAz
2025-01-30 06:43:48 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
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2025-01-30 06:54:19 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2025-01-30 07:04:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-01-30 07:10:39 +0000Square2(~Square4@user/square) Square
2025-01-30 07:16:21 +0000bliminse(~bliminse@user/bliminse) (Quit: leaving)
2025-01-30 07:19:00 +0000sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar
2025-01-30 07:19:49 +0000Square2(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2025-01-30 07:24:38 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 07:25:04 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2025-01-30 07:35:41 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-01-30 07:50:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-01-30 07:56:03 +0000pabs3(~pabs3@user/pabs3) pabs3
2025-01-30 08:00:06 +0000caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-01-30 08:00:44 +0000caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-01-30 08:01:18 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-01-30 08:06:05 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 08:10:44 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 08:12:02 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-30 08:20:49 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-1666-e945-fd21-b920-9aa7.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-01-30 08:21:06 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-1666-e945-fd21-b920-9aa7.pool6.digikabel.hu)
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2025-01-30 08:25:31 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2025-01-30 08:28:58 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-044-001.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-30 08:29:16 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2025-01-30 08:35:09 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-30 08:35:20 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2025-01-30 08:42:29 +0000tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-30 08:56:29 +0000alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3504-a239-90d9-dcf7-f21b-c236.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2025-01-30 08:58:10 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
2025-01-30 09:04:45 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-01-30 09:06:31 +0000TMA(tma@twin.jikos.cz) TMA
2025-01-30 09:07:05 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2025-01-30 09:12:03 +0000bliminse(~bliminse@user/bliminse) bliminse
2025-01-30 09:13:04 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-30 09:17:42 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 09:19:54 +0000tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 09:25:15 +0000kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) kuribas
2025-01-30 09:26:14 +0000Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
2025-01-30 09:27:00 +0000szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) szkl
2025-01-30 09:27:05 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 09:30:06 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2025-01-30 09:32:45 +0000lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) lortabac
2025-01-30 09:34:12 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:241:f200:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 09:40:07 +0000zmt01(~zmt00@user/zmt00) zmt00
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2025-01-30 09:47:16 +0000sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f0f5200f176db88f8d16a26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-01-30 09:48:37 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2025-01-30 09:49:34 +0000td_(~td@i53870904.versanet.de) td_
2025-01-30 09:58:05 +0000monochrm(trebla@216.138.220.146)
2025-01-30 09:58:39 +0000monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 09:58:40 +0000monochrmmonochrom
2025-01-30 09:59:13 +0000ubert(~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:ab8a:5a00:14a7:7f2d:4515:55f0) ubert
2025-01-30 10:01:49 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-30 10:06:10 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-30 10:12:37 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-01-30 10:13:42 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 10:15:31 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f467932b3eddade0ab9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 10:15:50 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f467932b3eddade0ab9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-01-30 10:15:54 +0000 <ski> (euouae was gone)
2025-01-30 10:16:34 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:241:f200:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen
2025-01-30 10:25:23 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 10:26:04 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2025-01-30 10:28:22 +0000xff0x_(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 10:28:35 +0000alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3504-a239-90d9-dcf7-f21b-c236.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 10:42:02 +0000tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-30 10:43:16 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-1666-e945-fd21-b920-9aa7.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-01-30 10:43:30 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-1666-e945-fd21-b920-9aa7.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-01-30 10:45:23 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-30 10:48:10 +0000tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-30 10:49:14 +0000tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2025-01-30 10:51:14 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
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2025-01-30 10:55:51 +0000SlackCoder(~SlackCode@64-94-63-8.ip.weststar.net.ky) SlackCoder
2025-01-30 10:57:53 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:241:f200:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-30 11:09:49 +0000chele(~chele@user/chele) chele
2025-01-30 11:20:38 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2025-01-30 11:20:44 +0000fp1(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) fp
2025-01-30 11:21:56 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2025-01-30 11:22:21 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@ai096095.d.east.v6connect.net)
2025-01-30 11:23:01 +0000fp1fp
2025-01-30 11:26:24 +0000sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f0f5200f176db88f8d16a26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-30 11:26:30 +0000mcfrdy(~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy) (Quit: quit)
2025-01-30 11:29:46 +0000MyNetAz(~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 11:33:05 +0000fp(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) (Quit: fp)
2025-01-30 11:35:50 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 11:36:47 +0000MyNetAz(~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) MyNetAz
2025-01-30 11:39:00 +0000jespada(~jespada@2800:a4:2225:fa00:219b:97a5:1505:5c5f) jespada
2025-01-30 11:40:57 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-30 11:43:09 +0000mange(~user@user/mange) (Quit: Zzz...)
2025-01-30 11:45:24 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 11:48:28 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-01-30 11:49:00 +0000foul_owl(~kerry@185.203.219.82) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-30 11:55:29 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-30 11:56:09 +0000alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3504-a239-90d9-dcf7-f21b-c236.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2025-01-30 12:00:04 +0000caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-01-30 12:02:11 +0000caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-01-30 12:02:21 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:241:f200:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen
2025-01-30 12:05:21 +0000foul_owl(~kerry@193.42.0.124) foul_owl
2025-01-30 12:08:50 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 12:09:26 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-133-171.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2025-01-30 12:10:37 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-01-30 12:15:54 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-133-171.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 12:16:53 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-008-052.176.0.pool.telefonica.de)
2025-01-30 12:18:39 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f467932b3eddade0ab9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 12:20:07 +0000sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f0f5200ad248b1696410372.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-01-30 12:21:19 +0000rvalue-(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
2025-01-30 12:22:03 +0000rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-30 12:22:06 +0000danza(~danza@user/danza) danza
2025-01-30 12:22:46 +0000fp(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) fp
2025-01-30 12:25:03 +0000pie_(~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) __
2025-01-30 12:26:10 +0000rvalue-rvalue
2025-01-30 12:28:27 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f4684c6011a1ea1e065.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-01-30 12:30:02 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-30 12:30:20 +0000pie_(~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) ()
2025-01-30 12:31:46 +0000danz93642(~danza@user/danza) danza
2025-01-30 12:33:56 +0000danza(~danza@user/danza) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2025-01-30 12:35:12 +0000pie_(~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) __
2025-01-30 12:37:09 +0000gentauro(~gentauro@user/gentauro) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 12:52:07 +0000 <haskellbridge> <eldritchcookie> do functions that are only used in TH splices count as evaluated to hpc? if not normally is there some way to get hpc to understand that i am testing those functions?
2025-01-30 12:52:08 +0000srazkvt(~srazkvt@user/srazkvt) srazkvt
2025-01-30 12:53:00 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-008-052.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-30 12:53:16 +0000jespada(~jespada@2800:a4:2225:fa00:219b:97a5:1505:5c5f) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-30 12:53:18 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@77.23.250.232)
2025-01-30 12:57:29 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-01-30 12:57:56 +0000jespada(~jespada@2800:a4:220c:6700:19eb:694f:b602:3bcb) jespada
2025-01-30 13:00:33 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@77.23.250.232) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2025-01-30 13:01:32 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-01-30 13:02:57 +0000tabaqui1(~root@87.200.129.102) tabaqui
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2025-01-30 15:33:19 +0000 <glguy> I wouldn't expect there to be one
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2025-01-30 18:44:59 +0000jespada(~jespada@2800:a4:220c:6700:19eb:694f:b602:3bcb) jespada
2025-01-30 18:48:00 +0000SlackCoder(~SlackCode@remote.nationalgallery.org.ky) SlackCoder
2025-01-30 18:48:41 +0000euouae(~euouae@user/euouae) euouae
2025-01-30 18:49:41 +0000SlackCoder(~SlackCode@remote.nationalgallery.org.ky) (Client Quit)
2025-01-30 18:49:47 +0000 <euouae> Hello, I have this small code to define my own monad with <https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KAANvlR5>. When I try `C1 (1 :: Int) >>= (\x -> C1 $ x + 1)` I get that the result of the evaluation is `C1 (1 :: Int) >>= (\x -> C1 $ x + 1) :: MyMonad Int`.
2025-01-30 18:50:29 +0000 <euouae> But why is it not C1 2? I've found that deriving Show will make it say C1 2. I've also found that deriving Eq will make it == C1 2. But is it just stylistic or is there something deeper here with regards to evaluation?
2025-01-30 18:51:51 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 18:56:33 +0000 <geekosaur> that doesn't look like the result of evaluation, only of typechecking?
2025-01-30 18:58:32 +0000 <ncf> euouae: they're not called anything particular since there aren't any.
2025-01-30 18:58:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-30 18:58:45 +0000 <ncf> (assuming f, a, b are universally quantified)
2025-01-30 18:58:54 +0000 <euouae> It's what happens when I hit enter in the repl geekosaur -- ncf not sure what you're talking about
2025-01-30 18:59:06 +0000 <ncf> <euouae> Hello functions of the type Functor f => f a -> f b, what are they called?
2025-01-30 18:59:24 +0000 <mauke> euouae: what repl?
2025-01-30 18:59:31 +0000 <euouae> ncf, oh yeah I get what you mean, thank you
2025-01-30 18:59:52 +0000 <euouae> mauke: Interactive-Haskell in Emacs
2025-01-30 19:00:42 +0000zlqrvx(~zlqrvx@user/zlqrvx) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 19:01:51 +0000 <geekosaur> fwiw I tried that here and I got a "No instance for `Show (MyMonad Int)`
2025-01-30 19:01:56 +0000 <geekosaur> which I would expect
2025-01-30 19:02:18 +0000 <euouae> I see, ok. It's just a style thing, it's not related to evaluation
2025-01-30 19:02:29 +0000 <euouae> For w/e reason my repl shows it like it does
2025-01-30 19:02:45 +0000 <geekosaur> prob ably defaults to showing the type if it can't show the value
2025-01-30 19:02:54 +0000 <euouae> expr + type yeah
2025-01-30 19:04:09 +0000 <mauke> :t 1 + 2 * 3
2025-01-30 19:04:10 +0000 <lambdabot> Num a => a
2025-01-30 19:04:58 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
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2025-01-30 19:09:54 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 19:10:54 +0000Pozyomka_(~pyon@user/pyon) pyon
2025-01-30 19:11:42 +0000Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-30 19:12:42 +0000 <euouae> Now if I have a `data MyMonad = C Int Int`, how can I make it monadic in the second argument? How can I make it monadic in the first argument?
2025-01-30 19:13:04 +0000 <euouae> something like `instance Functor (MyMonad Int) where` to begin with doesn't seem to work
2025-01-30 19:13:08 +0000 <[exa]> euouae: but MyMonad has no arguments?
2025-01-30 19:13:23 +0000 <euouae> Doesn't its constructor have two arguments
2025-01-30 19:13:31 +0000 <euouae> Ah, so you need it to be a * -> *
2025-01-30 19:13:53 +0000 <[exa]> that's the data constructor, that's ok. You need a type-level parameter though, because `fmap` and other functions are supposed to mess with that type
2025-01-30 19:14:02 +0000 <[exa]> (so they need the variable there)
2025-01-30 19:14:24 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 19:15:07 +0000 <euouae> well let's revise to `data MyMonad a b = C a b`
2025-01-30 19:15:23 +0000 <[exa]> (e.g. `fmap length` normally has type Functor f => f [a] -> f Int. If you used MyMonad instead of `f`, it wouldn't have a space to store the information about "what's inside"
2025-01-30 19:15:35 +0000 <[exa]> yap that should work
2025-01-30 19:16:02 +0000 <euouae> what are the right instance definitions for Functor, etc? I can't use 'MyMonad' because it is not the right kind
2025-01-30 19:16:21 +0000 <tomsmeding> 'Monad' (and 'Functor', etc.) requires its argument to be of kind Type -> Type (traditionally written * -> *)
2025-01-30 19:16:23 +0000 <euouae> oh, instance Functor (MyMonad a) where works
2025-01-30 19:16:28 +0000alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3504-afc6-21c9-80c8-175a-acbd.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2025-01-30 19:16:28 +0000MyNetAz(~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 19:16:34 +0000 <tomsmeding> that means that it should be a thing that takes one more type argument, and then produces an actual type
2025-01-30 19:16:53 +0000 <[exa]> euouae: it's quite useful to start with the standard ones, for example a good workalike for your MyMonad would be a tuple type ( instance Functor ((,) a) )
2025-01-30 19:16:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> that "one" there is significant: it means that if a data type is an instance of Functor/Applicative/Monad, it is in its _last_ type parameter
2025-01-30 19:17:14 +0000 <euouae> yeah I get that there's an order involved
2025-01-30 19:17:26 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 19:17:47 +0000 <euouae> So my whole exercise today is to try and shed some light into megaparsec's parser types. I had the intuition (maybe faulty?) that monads act like composable state machines
2025-01-30 19:17:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> `data MyMonad a b` cannot be a "monad in 'a'", it will always be "in 'b'", and the instance will say (MyMonad a)
2025-01-30 19:18:05 +0000 <euouae> where you feed the machine 'stuff' with >>= and it evolves. Maybe it's the wrong way to think about it?
2025-01-30 19:18:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> a State monad is essentially a composable state machine, yes
2025-01-30 19:18:29 +0000 <euouae> tomsmeding: I get it, * is not the same kind as (* -> *)
2025-01-30 19:18:31 +0000 <tomsmeding> not necessarily a _finite_ state machine
2025-01-30 19:18:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> a parser monad is typically a combination between at least a State monad and an exception monad
2025-01-30 19:19:05 +0000 <euouae> but why do you qualify with State and exception, aren't all monads essentially composable state machines?
2025-01-30 19:19:10 +0000 <tomsmeding> sometimes also a nondeterminism monad if you want to return all possible parses of a particular input (megaparsec doesn't do that)
2025-01-30 19:19:12 +0000 <euouae> it seems evolutoin comes with >>=
2025-01-30 19:19:20 +0000 <tomsmeding> `Maybe` is not a state machine
2025-01-30 19:19:27 +0000 <euouae> Why not?
2025-01-30 19:19:34 +0000 <tomsmeding> what's the state?
2025-01-30 19:19:52 +0000 <euouae> its two constructors
2025-01-30 19:20:04 +0000 <tomsmeding> a function `a -> Maybe b`, when seen as a monadic function, is a function from `a` to `b` that might also crash
2025-01-30 19:20:08 +0000Square(~Square@user/square) Square
2025-01-30 19:20:25 +0000 <euouae> Maybe I have a broader idea of state machine than you or maybe I'm wrong
2025-01-30 19:20:34 +0000 <tomsmeding> a function `a -> Either String b`, in the same way, is a function from `a` to `b` that might also throw an error string
2025-01-30 19:20:51 +0000 <mauke> I don't really see how >>= is feeding
2025-01-30 19:20:52 +0000 <[exa]> euouae: if restricted to "stateful" monads I think the state machine intuition would kinda work, it's just the thing that there are much more kinds of monads
2025-01-30 19:20:55 +0000 <tomsmeding> a function `a -> State s b` is a function that maps `a` to `b` and in the mean time modifies a state of type `s`
2025-01-30 19:21:06 +0000 <tomsmeding> this last one can decently be called a state machine
2025-01-30 19:21:36 +0000 <euouae> I'm not familiar with `State` yet, so before we go there, maybe if you can tell me a bit more about why Maybe is not a state machine
2025-01-30 19:21:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> euouae: I see a state machine as a box that has some internal state, and that you can send events to and it responds to those events and updates its state
2025-01-30 19:22:05 +0000 <euouae> mauke, well e.g. `Just 1 >>= (\x -> x + 1)` will give you Just 2. You had the state Just 1; now you have the state Just 2 with input the x+1 calculation.
2025-01-30 19:22:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-30 19:22:13 +0000 <[exa]> you can look at Maybe as a state machine too, with 2 states (the one that carries data and the one that has failed already)
2025-01-30 19:22:15 +0000 <tomsmeding> > Just 1 >>= \x -> Just (x + 1)
2025-01-30 19:22:17 +0000 <lambdabot> Just 2
2025-01-30 19:22:19 +0000 <tomsmeding> you need the second Just
2025-01-30 19:22:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> euouae: if you have a function `Int -> Int`, is that also a state machine?
2025-01-30 19:22:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> you had a state of type Int, and you get back a new one
2025-01-30 19:23:14 +0000 <euouae> tomsmeding: I see your point about it being stateless; but if the Int -> Int function is algorithmic, it is the computation of a state machine
2025-01-30 19:23:24 +0000Square2(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-30 19:23:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> at that point all programs are state machines :p
2025-01-30 19:23:29 +0000MyNetAz(~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) MyNetAz
2025-01-30 19:23:32 +0000 <[exa]> <3
2025-01-30 19:23:33 +0000 <tomsmeding> and it's not a useful label to attach to programs any more
2025-01-30 19:23:34 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
2025-01-30 19:23:45 +0000 <mauke> in particular, it's no longer specific to monads or >>=
2025-01-30 19:23:52 +0000 <euouae> Yeah but 'composable' state machines is where I like the idea -- that';s what makes monads different
2025-01-30 19:24:01 +0000 <tomsmeding> functions are the ultimate composable thing!
2025-01-30 19:24:06 +0000 <euouae> Well, perhaps it is faulty intuition.
2025-01-30 19:24:08 +0000 <mauke> > ((* 2) . (+ 1)) 3
2025-01-30 19:24:10 +0000 <lambdabot> 8
2025-01-30 19:24:12 +0000 <mauke> composes fine
2025-01-30 19:24:33 +0000 <euouae> I don't mean functionally composable, I mean that their state machine rule sets compose
2025-01-30 19:24:46 +0000 <mauke> where do you see a rule set?
2025-01-30 19:24:54 +0000 <euouae> In the definition of >>= in the instance of Monad
2025-01-30 19:25:11 +0000 <tomsmeding> the only intuition that I know for monads that can still sensibly be called an "intuition", but nevertheless scales to the vast majority of monads (if not all of them), is "overloaded semicolon"
2025-01-30 19:25:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> the more concrete / simple you make your intuition of monads, the less actual monads it applies to
2025-01-30 19:25:40 +0000 <mauke> look, it's simple: magic boxes
2025-01-30 19:25:48 +0000 <tomsmeding> "burrito" works fine for a State monad, but it makes little sense for the Maybe monad already
2025-01-30 19:26:00 +0000 <mauke> anything that doesn't fit into the box model just uses more magic
2025-01-30 19:26:15 +0000 <tomsmeding> mauke: I'd call that one not even an intuition any more. :P
2025-01-30 19:26:28 +0000 <mauke> works for me!
2025-01-30 19:27:08 +0000 <euouae> maybe I should look more into the state monad at this point
2025-01-30 19:27:15 +0000 <mauke> have you never opened a box and found N copies of yourself in N different parallel universes?
2025-01-30 19:27:43 +0000 <tomsmeding> not consciously
2025-01-30 19:27:53 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:241:f200:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen
2025-01-30 19:29:04 +0000 <euouae> btw with Int -> Int you'd have to restrict to recursively defined functions, i.e. computable
2025-01-30 19:29:30 +0000 <euouae> I don't know if state machines can be noncomputable, because I think of them in terms of rule sets (algorithmic)
2025-01-30 19:29:36 +0000 <mauke> how do I wrote an uncomputable function
2025-01-30 19:29:49 +0000 <euouae> I think Goedel's numbering will help you
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2025-01-30 19:32:48 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-01-30 19:34:46 +0000 <[exa]> euouae: btw are you familiar with how applicatives work? these are essentially the same thing but waaaaaaaaaaaaay more accessible for intuition
2025-01-30 19:35:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> euouae: if you think of Int -> Int as a state transformer, then a monad is a state transformer _that also does something else_
2025-01-30 19:35:38 +0000 <[exa]> > Just (+) <*> Just 1 <*> Just 3 -- euouae try replacing one with Nothing
2025-01-30 19:35:40 +0000 <lambdabot> Just 4
2025-01-30 19:35:52 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-30 19:36:17 +0000 <tomsmeding> for most monads, like Maybe, Either, State, etc., that "do something else" is actually implemented under the hood with normal functions; for things like IO, that "do something else" is unsafe magic
2025-01-30 19:37:02 +0000 <tomsmeding> but in the land of the monad, when you're not thinking of how the monad is implemented, you're writing functions (state transformers) that also have an additional _effect_ apart from just mapping its input to an output
2025-01-30 19:37:20 +0000 <tomsmeding> in the Maybe monad, you map inputs to an output _but you may also crash_
2025-01-30 19:37:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 19:37:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> in the (State s) monad, you map inputs to an output _but you may also read/write some additional state of type 's'_
2025-01-30 19:37:44 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-30 19:39:07 +0000 <tomsmeding> something like `runState :: State s a -> s -> (a, s)` allows you to lift the veil and expose the actual pure functions underneath
2025-01-30 19:39:52 +0000 <tomsmeding> in this case turning a computation which produces an 'a' into a function that takes an initial additional-state, and produces that 'a' together with the final additional-state
2025-01-30 19:41:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> the equivalent of a "run" function for the Maybe monad would be to simply case-match on the Maybe value, showing you whether the computation produced a result (Just) or crashed (Nothing)
2025-01-30 19:41:50 +0000 <tomsmeding> _inside_ the Maybe monad, you cannot see what happened, you're just part of a computation that may crash at some point
2025-01-30 19:41:59 +0000 <tomsmeding> it's like the Matrix
2025-01-30 19:42:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> (which is a dangerous analogy to make because I haven't actually seen that film)
2025-01-30 19:43:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> euouae: the intuition I'm trying to convey here is completely unrelated to what [exa] was trying to get at with the mention of Applicative. :P
2025-01-30 19:43:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> mine here is a programmer's intuition, not an algebraic one
2025-01-30 19:43:51 +0000 <tomsmeding> algebraically, a monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors
2025-01-30 19:45:36 +0000 <euouae> you haven't seen the matrix? the weekend is approaching.
2025-01-30 19:45:37 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-01-30 19:46:16 +0000 <euouae> I'm also trying to get the programming intuition; as for the category stuff, I mostly don't have any intuition, apart for very small things I've figured out on my own (but unrelated to programming?)
2025-01-30 19:46:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> (>>=) in monadic land corresponds to (&) = flip ($) in normal function land; (>=>) in monadic land corresponds to flip (.) in normal function land
2025-01-30 19:46:59 +0000ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-01-30 19:47:00 +0000 <tomsmeding> :t flip ($)
2025-01-30 19:47:01 +0000 <lambdabot> a -> (a -> c) -> c
2025-01-30 19:47:04 +0000 <tomsmeding> :t (>>=)
2025-01-30 19:47:04 +0000 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
2025-01-30 19:47:14 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-01-30 19:47:39 +0000 <tomsmeding> the things are flipped because unlike with normal functions, in monadic land, order of execution matters
2025-01-30 19:48:10 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 19:48:50 +0000 <tomsmeding> (>>=) executes the argument (performing any side effects if necessary), and then applies the function to the result
2025-01-30 19:49:02 +0000 <euouae> I'm going to think about this more. There's things in Haskell that scare me away but there's other things I like (after coming back to it) and I want to try some parsing stuff with megaparsec
2025-01-30 19:49:35 +0000 <euouae> In particular my IDE experience is really, really nice. I'll later look into debugging, but if that's good too then awesome
2025-01-30 19:49:48 +0000 <tomsmeding> debugging haskell is honestly kind of crappy
2025-01-30 19:49:56 +0000 <tomsmeding> the ghci debugger exists but few people use it
2025-01-30 19:49:57 +0000 <euouae> hm... well. can't have it all.
2025-01-30 19:50:17 +0000 <euouae> for example is there a way to query what the type checker thinks of an expression in the middle of a big expression?
2025-01-30 19:50:19 +0000 <euouae> that'd be type debugging
2025-01-30 19:50:33 +0000 <tomsmeding> oh for sure, the language server supports type queries
2025-01-30 19:50:55 +0000 <nitrix> Most LSP integrations will tell you that. You can also put a type hole with _ and see what the compiler thinks.
2025-01-30 19:50:59 +0000 <tomsmeding> for runtime debugging, the most reliable go-to is still "printf debugging" with Debug.Trace
2025-01-30 19:51:17 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00) zmt00
2025-01-30 19:51:41 +0000 <euouae> I'll come to that later at some point. Printf debugging is not the best but it is what it is
2025-01-30 19:51:51 +0000 <nitrix> > 1 + _
2025-01-30 19:51:56 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2025-01-30 19:51:56 +0000 <lambdabot> • Found hole: _ :: a
2025-01-30 19:51:56 +0000 <lambdabot> Where: ‘a’ is a rigid type variable bound by
2025-01-30 19:52:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> > "hi" ++ _
2025-01-30 19:52:07 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2025-01-30 19:52:07 +0000 <lambdabot> • Found hole: _ :: [Char]
2025-01-30 19:52:07 +0000 <lambdabot> • In the second argument of ‘(++)’, namely ‘_’
2025-01-30 19:52:22 +0000 <euouae> Ah nice tha'ts a cool trick thank you
2025-01-30 19:52:28 +0000 <euouae> yeah because I wanted something for the REPL too
2025-01-30 19:52:33 +0000 <euouae> not just lsp stuff in files
2025-01-30 19:52:37 +0000 <nitrix> I guess the Num a => a on the other lines gets truncated in the response.
2025-01-30 19:52:43 +0000 <tomsmeding> % :t "hi"
2025-01-30 19:52:43 +0000 <yahb2> "hi" :: String
2025-01-30 19:52:53 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-30 19:52:55 +0000 <tomsmeding> euouae: ':t' shows the type of an expression
2025-01-30 19:53:09 +0000 <euouae> yup, can't use it in the middle of stuff though
2025-01-30 19:53:23 +0000 <euouae> where I'm trying to understand what the type checker is "thinking"
2025-01-30 19:53:38 +0000 <euouae> in terms of ... I'm lacking the terms, but whatever the polymorphism and other derivations are
2025-01-30 19:53:40 +0000 <nitrix> Type inference is the term you're looking for.
2025-01-30 19:54:05 +0000 <euouae> right unfortunately there's normal debugging and type debugging when you write haskell
2025-01-30 19:54:10 +0000 <euouae> I'm sure it gets better with practice
2025-01-30 19:56:02 +0000danza(~danza@user/danza) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-01-30 19:57:51 +0000 <nitrix> Normal debugging yes, type debugging no. The more you know, the more tempted you are to use sophisticated types.
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2025-01-30 21:39:31 +0000 <dminuoso> euouae: The general technique to avoid or deal with typing errors generally, is to annotate as much as you can.
2025-01-30 21:39:39 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 21:39:40 +0000 <dminuoso> The more the type checker is constrained, the less it can infer and generalize.
2025-01-30 21:40:46 +0000 <dminuoso> Maybe it helps to think of generalization not as something that lets you avoid writing type signatures, but a feature that lets you write quantified types very liberally.
2025-01-30 21:41:20 +0000sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f0f520069bfd2b9cee1df34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-01-30 21:41:56 +0000 <dminuoso> It's an unfortunate consequence of advanced type systems, that you get type unification errors in seemingly random places unrelated to the mistake.
2025-01-30 21:42:20 +0000 <dminuoso> But by annotating as much as you can, you greatly limit how far these unification errors can propagate.
2025-01-30 21:42:56 +0000 <dminuoso> Plus, the type annotations help document your code, so twice the reason to annotate everything with a type.
2025-01-30 21:45:01 +0000 <euouae> interesting, will do
2025-01-30 21:47:29 +0000 <dminuoso> euouae: There's some potential to improve GHC errors that we bring up every now and then. Some ML languages have whats called a type error slicer, which essentially marks all the spots in your program that somehow contributed to a given type error.
2025-01-30 21:47:53 +0000 <dminuoso> It still would not necessarily pin point to the cause, but you could at least identify all the moving parts that dont fit for some reason.
2025-01-30 21:48:10 +0000 <dminuoso> But alas, there is not even a WIP for this in GHC.
2025-01-30 21:48:40 +0000 <euouae> That's exactly the situation that happened some days ago when I asked a megaparsec question here and you answered it
2025-01-30 21:48:52 +0000 <euouae> it was some type inference issue where the error was unrelated to the actual issue
2025-01-30 21:49:41 +0000 <dminuoso> euouae: In hindsight, it was quite related.
2025-01-30 21:49:42 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> euouae: would adding more type signatures have helped ? It's very good advice
2025-01-30 21:49:52 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 21:50:39 +0000 <euouae> dminuoso: experienced haskellers obviously see it differently from novices ;) if you know a lot of C++ you can figure out what the template errors are as well...
2025-01-30 21:51:10 +0000 <dminuoso> euouae: I think the error was not that complicated. The main reason it took me a moment, was because I had no mental picture of the types involved.
2025-01-30 21:51:29 +0000 <dminuoso> C++ template instantiation errors are.. something else.
2025-01-30 21:51:31 +0000 <euouae> well my point is that /you/ could do it and I couldn't :P
2025-01-30 21:51:36 +0000 <dminuoso> Fair.
2025-01-30 21:52:11 +0000 <haskellbridge> <sm> troubleshooting complex problems over irc is pretty hard sometimes
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2025-01-30 22:45:16 +0000 <euouae> Something I don't understand is how come the transformer package provides Control.Monad.Trans.State? Can packages provide stuff under Control.*? (Isn't it a "core/standard" namespace?)
2025-01-30 22:45:44 +0000emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2025-01-30 22:48:51 +0000 <davean> euouae: no such thing
2025-01-30 22:49:21 +0000 <euouae> So the imports are structured around central concepts like Control/Data
2025-01-30 22:49:32 +0000 <euouae> OK, ty
2025-01-30 22:50:09 +0000 <EvanR> Control and Data are certainly names
2025-01-30 22:50:26 +0000 <EvanR> I don't think the concepts make much sense for what's been placed under them
2025-01-30 22:50:38 +0000 <EvanR> just hysterical raisins
2025-01-30 22:51:25 +0000 <dminuoso> euouae: These namespaces are not sealed.
2025-01-30 22:51:39 +0000 <EvanR> in haskell data structures are used for control
2025-01-30 22:51:46 +0000 <dminuoso> In fact, consider module names just arbitrary names. Some follow conventions, others dont.
2025-01-30 22:52:34 +0000 <dminuoso> Heck, you could even have two packages use the same module name, say `Control.Monad`
2025-01-30 22:52:43 +0000 <euouae> a bit of chaos
2025-01-30 22:53:04 +0000 <dminuoso> euouae: In practice that very rarely happens, and we have mechanisms to resolve ambiguiity.
2025-01-30 22:53:10 +0000 <euouae> laissez faire stuff
2025-01-30 22:53:59 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-01-30 22:56:49 +0000 <davean> Having heirarchical names is just an extension for convinience.
2025-01-30 22:58:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-30 23:04:43 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-01-30 23:06:53 +0000 <glguy> My favorite Data. misuse is Data.Kind
2025-01-30 23:07:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> (re mechanisms to resolve ambiguity: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/package_qualified_imports.html#exte… )
2025-01-30 23:09:21 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 23:10:58 +0000 <dminuoso> Relatedly https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/packages.html#package-thinning-and-renam…
2025-01-30 23:11:36 +0000 <dminuoso> Unsure how controllable that is via cabal-install
2025-01-30 23:12:28 +0000 <geekosaur> "mixins" should handle both
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2025-01-30 23:14:57 +0000ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-30 23:18:50 +0000 <dminuoso> A while ago transformers has received these nice diagrams to visualize what the respective transformers do: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-0.6.1.2/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-Writer-CPS.html
2025-01-30 23:19:06 +0000alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-30 23:19:09 +0000 <dminuoso> We're just missing a diagram for Cont. Cant be that hard, right? :-)
2025-01-30 23:19:28 +0000 <geekosaur> i,i "Cont be that hard"
2025-01-30 23:19:37 +0000 <dminuoso> Heh.
2025-01-30 23:21:02 +0000 <EvanR> haskell is famous for laissez faire programming. Terrible I'm outta here
2025-01-30 23:21:02 +0000 <int-e> please pass all the details to `const "I don't want to hear it."`
2025-01-30 23:21:15 +0000 <EvanR> looking for a language for more bondage and discipline
2025-01-30 23:22:30 +0000 <geekosaur> surely there's an appropriate DT language
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2025-01-30 23:24:45 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 23:28:15 +0000Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
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2025-01-30 23:35:39 +0000 <monochrom> You know what, I have to understand Reader and Writer first before I understand those two diagrams.
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2025-01-30 23:36:07 +0000 <monochrom> And generally I have to understand bind first.
2025-01-30 23:37:39 +0000 <monochrom> But State is missing a diagram and that's a well-known diagram.
2025-01-30 23:38:06 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:704:c9bd:a645:9b1d)
2025-01-30 23:38:22 +0000 <monochrom> Conjecture: Such a diagram exists iff the monad is of an algebraic effect. Cont is not an algebraic effect.
2025-01-30 23:42:48 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-01-30 23:52:02 +0000 <euouae> <https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Understanding_monads/State> "A monad is sometimes described as providing a value in a context." -- this is very close to what I was thinking when I said monads are like state machines
2025-01-30 23:54:15 +0000 <dminuoso> euouae: Monads are an abstract interface.
2025-01-30 23:54:36 +0000 <dminuoso> Comparing them to anything concrete is, at best, just likening it to that specific instance, but that prevents you from seeing what monad is about.
2025-01-30 23:54:52 +0000 <int-e> now I want a burrito
2025-01-30 23:55:16 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-01-30 23:57:25 +0000 <dminuoso> euouae: My best recommendation is to just not worry about what Monad means at all. `IO` is about side effects. `[]` is about lists. `Maybe` is about failure. `Either A` is about exceptions. Each example is trivial to explain to any beginner
2025-01-30 23:58:09 +0000 <dminuoso> Monad is just observing that all of these things have some pattern and laws in common. There's not really any inherent meaning to it
2025-01-30 23:58:40 +0000 <dminuoso> And if people stop trying to attach meaning to that word `Monad`, they get on learning Haskell much faster.
2025-01-30 23:58:45 +0000 <monochrom> I do not mind specific instances that may limit one's imagination because it is part of the learning process.
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