IRCBrowse

2024/09/16

2024-09-16 00:00:51 +0000 <monochrom> Without ExtendedDefaultRules, that's an ambiguous type error. With ExtendedDefaultRules, () is chosen. I still don't know how to get Any.
2024-09-16 00:02:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 00:05:04 +0000troojg(~troojg@user/troojg) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 00:05:24 +0000 <geekosaur> oh, looks like it went away in recent versions. (more correctly, it's a type family instead of a type, so you won't see it)
2024-09-16 00:06:26 +0000k_hachig_(~k_hachig@2607:fea8:351d:ef0:e8aa:5287:babe:ddb5)
2024-09-16 00:06:43 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-09-16 00:08:01 +0000 <geekosaur> and yes, in simple cases it won't get used, so the `print []` example won't work anyway. it's the complex cases (of which I have none on tap; they're somewhat rare) where Any rears (reared?) its ugly head
2024-09-16 00:08:45 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah I saw Any some years ago too.
2024-09-16 00:10:57 +0000 <geekosaur> yeh, I tried some things in yahb2 and can't get it
2024-09-16 00:11:11 +0000JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
2024-09-16 00:15:24 +0000 <monochrom> OK found it, it's -ddump-simpl : https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/blob/master/play-haskell-worker/bwrap-files/stage-3.sh#L41
2024-09-16 00:17:19 +0000 <monochrom> (For /builders/build-*.sh, it's possibly generated by https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/blob/master/play-haskell-worker/bwrap-files/mkbuildscript.sh )
2024-09-16 00:17:41 +0000 <monochrom> (So wait, there is such a thing as "ghcup run"??!!! haha)
2024-09-16 00:18:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Yes
2024-09-16 00:18:40 +0000 <monochrom> Oh interesting, "ghcup run foo" runs foo under additions to PATH so you don't have to permanently add things to PATH if you don't want to.
2024-09-16 00:18:41 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-09-16 00:19:11 +0000 <geekosaur> ghcup run --ghc $(API_GHC) -- print-api --package-name Cabal-syntax >Cabal-syntax-$(API_GHC).api
2024-09-16 00:19:24 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> This is heavily used in the vscode extension too
2024-09-16 00:19:31 +0000 <geekosaur> (from a work-in-progress)
2024-09-16 00:19:32 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 00:19:37 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> To emulate stack like behavior
2024-09-16 00:24:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-16 00:24:59 +0000 <EvanR> see ghcup run
2024-09-16 00:25:02 +0000 <EvanR> run ghcup run
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2024-09-16 03:29:14 +0000neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@37.19.200.165)
2024-09-16 03:29:15 +0000 <Leary> I'm late, but re -Wall: yes it errs on the side of being too loud, because it /should/. Blacklisting the few warnings you don't care about is easier than whitelisting all the ones you do---just turn off the noise as it reaches you.
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2024-09-16 07:11:07 +0000 <tomsmeding> Leary: maybe STG is better! I don't actually know enough about that space to say much about it, lol.
2024-09-16 07:12:36 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 07:13:51 +0000 <tomsmeding> Leary: what would be the right flag? -ddump-stg-from-core, -ddump-stg-final, or yet something else?
2024-09-16 07:14:33 +0000hiecaq(~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) (Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.4))
2024-09-16 07:15:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> Leary: yahb2 is on the currently ghcup-recommended GHC version: 9.4.8 :p
2024-09-16 07:15:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> but why the hell not, let's upgrade
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2024-09-16 07:20:42 +0000ash3en(~Thunderbi@89.246.174.164)
2024-09-16 07:24:10 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: thanks for the additional context about stg vs core
2024-09-16 07:24:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> and you did find the Core flags, indeed :)
2024-09-16 07:24:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> the build scripts are indeed generated by mkbuildscript.sh
2024-09-16 07:25:03 +0000ash3en(~Thunderbi@89.246.174.164) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:25:54 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: if you're curious, here is one such generated script https://tomsmeding.com/vang/JvLCi6/build-9.4.8.sh
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2024-09-16 07:41:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> % System.Process.system "ghci --version" -- Leary
2024-09-16 07:41:29 +0000 <yahb2> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 9.10.1 ; ExitSuccess
2024-09-16 07:44:16 +0000misterfish(~misterfis@h239071.upc-h.chello.nl)
2024-09-16 07:45:06 +0000 <JuanDaugherty> expeditious
2024-09-16 07:45:38 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:24c:f900:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da)
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2024-09-16 08:08:00 +0000turlando(~turlando@user/turlando) ()
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2024-09-16 09:17:59 +0000hiecaq`(~hiecaq@user/hiecaq)
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2024-09-16 09:37:15 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> tomsmeding: because GHC 9.6 is broken on FreeBSD
2024-09-16 09:37:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> that's the main reason
2024-09-16 09:37:37 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> 'recommended' is one of the few leverages I have over GHC developers... and I make use of it.
2024-09-16 09:38:24 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> otherwise I'll be dragged through the mud and accept all regressions :P
2024-09-16 09:38:38 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 09:40:29 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-004-237-218.176.4.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-09-16 09:47:03 +0000mari-estel(~mari-este@p578af18c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ()
2024-09-16 09:47:20 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 09:48:02 +0000srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2024-09-16 09:51:49 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-16 09:52:22 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2024-09-16 09:55:33 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2024-09-16 09:55:46 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 09:56:27 +0000 <tomsmeding> maerwald: :D
2024-09-16 09:57:24 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/24672
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2024-09-16 10:00:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> sounds tricky
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2024-09-16 14:15:55 +0000 <[exa]> is hoogle somewhat overloaded recently, or is it just me getting slow responses?
2024-09-16 14:17:19 +0000 <srazkvt> the one at hoogle.haskell.org ? it's definitely much slower on my end as well
2024-09-16 14:21:19 +0000raehik(~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net)
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2024-09-16 15:43:02 +0000 <monochrom> tomsmeding: "stg-final" sounds most final. :) (Just in case there are stg-to-stg optimizations that matter.)
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2024-09-16 17:11:07 +0000 <lxsameer> hey all, when it comes to language extensions, which one is the well accepted best practice, enabling extensions per module via pragmas or for all the project via the build tool? I leaning toward the former
2024-09-16 17:11:55 +0000 <monochrom> Most of the time I do per module.
2024-09-16 17:12:06 +0000 <geekosaur> I strongly prefer the former because, when I'm reading code, the extensions are declared up front and I know what to expect
2024-09-16 17:12:40 +0000 <geekosaur> it's harder if I have to dig in the cabal file/package.yaml to get the full story
2024-09-16 17:12:54 +0000 <monochrom> I haven't done really serious projects yet, but I dream of doing both for them. Redundancy is important when there are multiple kinds of audience and each looks at a different place.
2024-09-16 17:13:04 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-007-150-008.176.7.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-09-16 17:13:19 +0000 <monochrom> Something I learned when writing and submitting reports, academic papers, theses.
2024-09-16 17:13:30 +0000 <geekosaur> you can do both with `other-extensions`, in fact it's recommended
2024-09-16 17:14:02 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit)
2024-09-16 17:14:12 +0000 <monochrom> Someone just wants to take a look at the summary, some others just the end, some just the middle. If you have an important point to make, you have to make it 3 times for those 3 kinds of people.
2024-09-16 17:14:14 +0000 <geekosaur> becuase that way cabal/stack can tell you up front if your selected ghc supports them
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2024-09-16 17:14:51 +0000 <geekosaur> (more to the point, if it doesn't support them)
2024-09-16 17:15:27 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-16 17:17:00 +0000 <monochrom> Of course, in the case of extensions and the cabal file, this would cause the problem of syncing up the redundancy, I don't have a solution for that.
2024-09-16 17:17:21 +0000 <geekosaur> tooling could do that
2024-09-16 17:17:58 +0000 <geekosaur> I could write that one up pretty easily if I needed it then release it as a cabal external command plugin
2024-09-16 17:18:17 +0000cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2024-09-16 17:18:42 +0000 <lxsameer> cool, thanks folks
2024-09-16 17:18:43 +0000 <geekosaur> (but I don't use many extensions, so I haven't bothered as yet)
2024-09-16 17:19:48 +0000 <monochrom> In the case of extensions, I think it becomes a non-issue because most people don't look for extensions in the cabal file because of several factors, so you just do per file and call it a day and no one complains.
2024-09-16 17:19:54 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 17:20:27 +0000 <monochrom> 1. There is only one compiler left in production. It is not like you need to know whether your favourite compiler suports them or not.
2024-09-16 17:20:34 +0000 <geekosaur> I mean, it's just pull the extensions out of the top of every Haskell source in the package (get that from the cabal file, run hpack if all you have is package.yaml), write the intersection to the cabal file's `other-extensions` so tooling can tell you about extension vs. compiler compatibility
2024-09-16 17:21:02 +0000 <monochrom> 2. GHC2021 already includes so many extensions that you just need to say "GHC2021".
2024-09-16 17:21:27 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx)
2024-09-16 17:21:33 +0000 <geekosaur> uh, for one recent example someone used `OverloadedRecordDot` in the cabal source. We're required to support ghcs back to 8.8, so CI failed
2024-09-16 17:21:39 +0000TMA(tma@twin.jikos.cz) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 17:21:45 +0000 <monochrom> 3. In some cases you really like to turn on, say, UndecidableInstances for just one file but not the rest.
2024-09-16 17:21:50 +0000 <geekosaur> (a couple months ago the same happened with `\cases`)
2024-09-16 17:22:11 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: re "you have to make it three times": then your reviewers will say "stop saying the same thing three times" :p
2024-09-16 17:22:13 +0000 <monochrom> Oh, that. I forgot.
2024-09-16 17:22:30 +0000TMA(tma@twin.jikos.cz)
2024-09-16 17:22:59 +0000 <monochrom> tomsmeding: My supervisor is experienced in the truth. If you didn't make it 3 times, the reviewers would demand saying it 3 times.
2024-09-16 17:23:18 +0000 <monochrom> Generally you have done X iff reviewers demand not X.
2024-09-16 17:23:27 +0000 <tomsmeding> lol
2024-09-16 17:23:29 +0000 <tomsmeding> that is fair
2024-09-16 17:23:42 +0000hiredman(~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family)
2024-09-16 17:23:59 +0000 <tomsmeding> also, more to the specific topic at hand: recently I found out that in some obscure circumstance, you actually MUST add TemplateHaskell to other-extensions if you use it
2024-09-16 17:24:27 +0000 <tomsmeding> I think it had to do with haddock
2024-09-16 17:24:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> hm, that or C sources
2024-09-16 17:26:46 +0000morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2024-09-16 17:28:23 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-09-16 17:29:11 +0000 <monochrom> My supervisor told me about that in the context of right after my in-department oral exam and receiving comments from the other examiners. He wanted to prepare me so I wouldn't feel offended or belittled. He went very meta and said, "people feel like they need to make a contribution, but of course a thesis at this stage doesn't need major changes, so people can only pick on tiny things and suggest tiny changes so they feel like they've suggested
2024-09-16 17:29:11 +0000 <monochrom> something. It doesn't mean you did it wrong; if you did X, they will suggest not X; if you did not X, they will suggest X. Don't feel bad about it."
2024-09-16 17:29:54 +0000oneeyedalien(~oneeyedal@user/oneeyedalien) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-09-16 17:29:59 +0000 <monochrom> But I think I'm blessed because I looked at the suggested changes from my examiners, and they're really good changes, not that kind of change-for-the-sake-of-change.
2024-09-16 17:30:09 +0000 <tomsmeding> "of course a thesis at this stage doesn't need major changes" -- in the common, happy case
2024-09-16 17:30:53 +0000 <monochrom> Well yeah if the supervisor does their job, they would be good guards and wouldn't even let an oral exam happen if the work were not ready.
2024-09-16 17:31:02 +0000 <tomsmeding> true
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2024-09-16 17:32:28 +0000 <monochrom> It's why that joke about "a thesis on a new kind of rings that's too good to be true, and it is, because during the exam an examiner proved that it can only be {0}" is very likely just a fictional joke, not a true story.
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2024-09-16 17:36:06 +0000 <EvanR> make sure you leave something in the house electrical just obviously messed up so the inspector can identify it, feel like they did something, and leave
2024-09-16 17:36:24 +0000 <EvanR> or else they will go nuts on trivialities
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2024-09-16 17:38:31 +0000 <monochrom> haha
2024-09-16 17:39:13 +0000misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146)
2024-09-16 17:40:10 +0000morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2024-09-16 17:41:03 +0000 <monochrom> (On second thought, maybe there is a reason the joke is set in the math department rather than any other discipline... It would be math people who would be so absent-minded and disorganized that it is possible that a student and their supervisor never discussed things until the exam haha)
2024-09-16 17:41:35 +0000 <tomsmeding> this is the "game graphics artist who meticulously animated a pet around the character, never actually touching the character, so that the bosses could point to that pet and say 'remove that', and have that be trivial"
2024-09-16 17:41:38 +0000 <tomsmeding> all over again
2024-09-16 17:41:59 +0000 <geekosaur> monochrom, you've ever been in an electrical and computer engineering department 😛
2024-09-16 17:42:16 +0000 <geekosaur> I think that's pretty much a standard thing
2024-09-16 17:44:04 +0000 <monochrom> heh
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2024-09-16 17:45:39 +0000 <mauke> https://blog.codinghorror.com/new-programming-jargon/#5
2024-09-16 17:47:51 +0000 <tomsmeding> mauke: thank you, that was indeed it
2024-09-16 17:48:22 +0000 <EvanR> dude, battle chess
2024-09-16 17:48:58 +0000wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
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2024-09-16 18:06:05 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 18:06:41 +0000 <[exa]> is there any sensible shortcut (or generally naming scheme) for things like `fmap (sequenceA . fmap sequenceA)`
2024-09-16 18:08:13 +0000 <[exa]> (it permutes the burrito layers from f(g(h(i a))) to f(h(i(g a))) )
2024-09-16 18:08:59 +0000 <tomsmeding> inb4 someone has written a library that lets you give it two type-level descriptions of the nesting, and it figures out the right combination of fmaps to make it work
2024-09-16 18:09:16 +0000 <monochrom> I haven't heard of one.
2024-09-16 18:10:05 +0000 <monochrom> At the term level we don't have a huge family of flip's for various arities and permutations either.
2024-09-16 18:10:38 +0000 <[exa]> like, I don't have a problem with this one, it already saved a ton of code, but now after seeing that it just permutes stuff I somehow strive for more
2024-09-16 18:10:46 +0000 <monochrom> We seem to just write the exact one on the spot on a need-to-use basis and be done.
2024-09-16 18:11:23 +0000 <monochrom> But hey that type-level approach sounds promising :)
2024-09-16 18:11:52 +0000 <[exa]> might happen that the namign of these things would look like (caddadr ...) and pals from lisp
2024-09-16 18:12:15 +0000 <monochrom> Actually Hutton's "APLicative Programming with Naperian Functors" may help.
2024-09-16 18:12:29 +0000 <[exa]> like this is....sequenceA1342 ?
2024-09-16 18:12:58 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 18:13:19 +0000 <monochrom> (It models APL in Haskell with representable (Naperian) and applicative functors. APL also does transpositions like that.)
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2024-09-16 18:13:57 +0000 <monochrom> err, transposes! As in matrix or n-dim array/tensor transpose.
2024-09-16 18:14:28 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-072-241.176.3.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-09-16 18:14:53 +0000 <mauke> :t fmap sequenceA . (fmap . fmap) sequenceA
2024-09-16 18:14:54 +0000 <lambdabot> (Applicative f1, Traversable t1, Traversable t2, Functor f2) => f2 (t1 (t2 (f1 a))) -> f2 (f1 (t1 (t2 a)))
2024-09-16 18:17:15 +0000 <tomsmeding> next level: prove that whatever combination of fmap, (.) and sequenceA you write, if the combination has the same type, it is also semantically equivalent
2024-09-16 18:17:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> (I have no idea whether this is actually true; if not, that would be an interesting wrinkle)
2024-09-16 18:17:28 +0000 <monochrom> :(
2024-09-16 18:17:28 +0000fireking04(~user@36-227-111-145.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2024-09-16 18:17:52 +0000 <monochrom> That would be a parametricity homework question for a grad course. :)
2024-09-16 18:18:19 +0000 <mauke> :t sequenceA . fmap sequenceA . (fmap . fmap) sequenceA
2024-09-16 18:18:20 +0000 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t1, Traversable t2, Traversable t3) => t1 (t2 (t3 (f a))) -> f (t1 (t2 (t3 a)))
2024-09-16 18:18:21 +0000billchenchina-(~billchenc@103.152.35.21) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-16 18:18:29 +0000 <tomsmeding> it feels difficult, but maybe when you look at the laws it becomes more tractable
2024-09-16 18:18:56 +0000 <monochrom> It's definitely difficult enough, or at least annoying enough, to be reserved for grad courses.
2024-09-16 18:19:47 +0000 <monochrom> For undergrad courses, it is reserved for only the most dired time when the class average is too high. >:)
2024-09-16 18:19:58 +0000 <monochrom> err, s/dired/dire/
2024-09-16 18:20:27 +0000 <mauke> extract^N = ._{i=0}^{N} fmap^{i} sequenceA
2024-09-16 18:20:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: are you suggesting grading with a pre-determined class average?
2024-09-16 18:20:46 +0000 <tomsmeding> mauke: right!
2024-09-16 18:21:06 +0000 <tomsmeding> and you can merge adjacent extracts using the composition law for fmap: fmap f . fmap g = fmap (f . g)
2024-09-16 18:21:13 +0000 <[exa]> monochrom: oh that's a nice thing, thanks
2024-09-16 18:23:57 +0000 <monochrom> tomsmeding: Instead, I look at trends of class averages over say 2-3 years as an proxy for "civilization has advanced, students are ready for advanced topics".
2024-09-16 18:24:07 +0000 <[exa]> btw re slowness of hoogle.haskell.org, is there any way to throw any kind of resources at the maintainers to help with the (assumed) overload?
2024-09-16 18:24:24 +0000slack1256(~slack1256@2803:c600:5111:8029:6e22:e379:7b90:ce92)
2024-09-16 18:24:36 +0000 <[exa]> like, I've got servers
2024-09-16 18:24:40 +0000 <monochrom> Right? Just 400 years ago, you just needed to do long divisions for BSc, you just needed to solve cubic equations for PhD. We can't always teach the same basic things.
2024-09-16 18:24:48 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 18:25:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: right. But those developments don't really happen in 2-3 years for BSc courses
2024-09-16 18:25:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> perhaps PhD courses might evolve that quickly
2024-09-16 18:25:24 +0000 <slack1256> I have an app using persistent, I would like to EXPLAIN the queries to add the appropiate indexes. Is there a way to do so by using persistent? If not, how should I get the executed queries to run them myself and EXPLAIN them?
2024-09-16 18:25:29 +0000 <tomsmeding> even MSc courses hit that frequency only seldomly
2024-09-16 18:26:24 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-09-16 18:26:27 +0000 <monochrom> OK OK change that to "chatgpt has adanced, students are ready for advanced topics". >:)
2024-09-16 18:26:56 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: what will you do if the year after isn't quite so good again?
2024-09-16 18:27:18 +0000 <tomsmeding> [exa]: who even runs hoogle.haskell.org
2024-09-16 18:27:27 +0000 <probie> Not sure about monochrom, but I recommend "go on a rant about the declining quality of students"
2024-09-16 18:27:44 +0000 <[exa]> tomsmeding: exactly
2024-09-16 18:27:50 +0000 <monochrom> I can still teach the difficult topics, but I can also choose easier or harder questions on homework and exams.
2024-09-16 18:28:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> so just by joining university the wrong year, I can get disadvantaged in my grades by sheer luck?
2024-09-16 18:28:27 +0000target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099)
2024-09-16 18:29:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-16 18:29:07 +0000 <monochrom> Also there is an unsaid premise that I don't teach an advanced topic until I finally figure how to tell the story.
2024-09-16 18:29:08 +0000jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2024-09-16 18:30:09 +0000 <mauke> https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/issues https://ndmitchell.com/
2024-09-16 18:30:28 +0000athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-09-16 18:30:57 +0000 <probie> tomsmeding: By having a cold on the wrong day you can have your grades disadvantaged by sheer luck. Grades correlate with understanding of content, but it's hardly a 1-1 to mapping
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2024-09-16 18:31:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> probie: sure. But I can't do much about that cold, usually. The teacher can definitely do something about consistency in grading.
2024-09-16 18:32:02 +0000 <monochrom> tomsmeding: You are not my student, you won't get disadvantaged just because I decide to teach full-blown denotational semantics on a whim. >:)
2024-09-16 18:32:18 +0000 <tomsmeding> I am indeed not :) But I'm fighting for the students who are
2024-09-16 18:32:23 +0000 <tomsmeding> I have a strong dislike for "grading on a curve"
2024-09-16 18:32:40 +0000 <tomsmeding> I'm not saying you're doing it, or doing it bad enough that I would disapprove of it, I just don't like it :p
2024-09-16 18:33:05 +0000 <tomsmeding> (and also, even if I would disapprove of how you grade -- not sure if you should care very much :) )
2024-09-16 18:33:52 +0000 <tomsmeding> mauke: seems like it's himself, indeed
2024-09-16 18:34:04 +0000 <monochrom> I hate the word "accessible", but I think how I actually teach, and what I mean by "figure out how to tell the story", is exactly teaching things in an accessible way. So e.g., teaching parametricity the same way as the Theorems for Free is still not accessible enough, actually.
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2024-09-16 18:34:43 +0000 <tomsmeding> (and I am definitely not commenting on your teaching itself, not least because I have never sat in your classroom)
2024-09-16 18:36:22 +0000 <tomsmeding> (in fact, all signals point to you making an effort to explain things simply, in proper order, and in a way that makes students happy together with giving them the means to explore the rest themselves)
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2024-09-16 19:16:22 +0000 <probie> [exa]: just because monochrom brought it up, this is how you could write `fmap (sequenceA . fmap sequenceA)` in APL `(⎕IO+0 2 3 1)∘⍉` (⎕IO is "index origin". Because APL lets you swap between 0-indexing and 1-indexing, the `⎕IO+` bit it just to make it work with both)
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2024-09-16 19:19:56 +0000 <[exa]> probie: o nice
2024-09-16 19:20:02 +0000 <[exa]> (APL is underrated)
2024-09-16 19:21:19 +0000 <monochrom> Oh yeah I remember seeing APL "IO" on wikipedia :)
2024-09-16 19:22:43 +0000sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2024-09-16 19:23:33 +0000 <geekosaur> it's fun. I blew out my CPU time allotment playing with it though, BITD 😞
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2024-09-16 19:28:39 +0000 <probie> I might as well finish the explanation. `⎕IO+0 2 3 1` would be `map (indexOrigin +) [0, 2, 3, 1]` in Haskell. The `∘` (pronounced "bind" in this context) is a modern APL feature for partial application (that symbol also does double duty as normal function composition and is called "beside" in the context)
2024-09-16 19:29:16 +0000 <probie> s/"beside" in the context/"beside" in that context/
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2024-09-16 19:32:14 +0000 <probie> And ⍉ is transpose (that's probably an important part :p)
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2024-09-16 20:17:42 +0000 <probie> Oh wait, I was bamboozled by the type. the `fmap (sequenceA . fmap sequenceA)` isn't actually a transposition
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2024-09-16 20:55:47 +0000 <EvanR> the steganographic content is hidden in the number of whitespaces
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2024-09-16 20:56:35 +0000 <geekosaur> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Whitespace
2024-09-16 21:01:50 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-09-16 21:01:57 +0000 <mauke> hell yeah, whitespace. I love a basic execution loop that is O(n^2) in the length of the program :-)
2024-09-16 21:02:19 +0000spew(~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::728c)
2024-09-16 21:02:39 +0000 <mauke> (the interpreter is written in Haskell and uses lists for absolutely everything, and it uses !! to access list elements)
2024-09-16 21:02:59 +0000 <ski> luvly jubly
2024-09-16 21:05:04 +0000 <institor> such a shame Data.Vector is not in Prelude
2024-09-16 21:05:07 +0000foul_owl(~kerry@185.219.141.160)
2024-09-16 21:05:51 +0000 <institor> i have fallen into the same trap on older projects using (!!) everywhere
2024-09-16 21:06:17 +0000 <EvanR> and writing yet another updated at function
2024-09-16 21:06:37 +0000 <geekosaur> I honestly don't think I ever have: Haskell lists were always obviously linked lists to me
2024-09-16 21:07:45 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 21:10:29 +0000athan_(~athan@2600:382:1f08:fd67:cf15:5297:c8ad:7370) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:12:17 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:13:00 +0000polyphem_(~rod@pd9fbf9d1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:16:40 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-09-16 21:16:44 +0000talismanick(~user@2601:644:937c:ed10::ae5) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:16:53 +0000 <probie> [exa]: No promise that it does what you want at the value level, nor will it produce efficient code, but see https://play.haskell.org/saved/nNCiWEE2
2024-09-16 21:18:18 +0000fun-safe-math(~fun-safe-@24.21.106.247) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:18:55 +0000spew(~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::728c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-16 21:19:12 +0000spew(~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::728c)
2024-09-16 21:19:12 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:20:09 +0000 <d34df00d> I have something funny going on with cross-module inlining.
2024-09-16 21:20:24 +0000fun-safe-math(~fun-safe-@24.21.106.247)
2024-09-16 21:20:49 +0000 <d34df00d> If I paste this module contents https://github.com/0xd34df00d/regex-memo-lat/blob/master/src/Text/Regex/Memo/Stack.hs here : https://github.com/0xd34df00d/regex-memo-lat/blob/master/src/Text/Regex/Memo/Matcher/Naive.hs , then my program works about ⅓ faster.
2024-09-16 21:21:15 +0000 <d34df00d> And I get similar effect if I have {-# INLINE push #-} (and just that one!) in the `Stack` module.
2024-09-16 21:21:54 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@2601:14d:4e01:1370:4ccc:d43c:3d7c:bb24) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:21:56 +0000 <d34df00d> I also have -XStrict enabled globally, as well as -fexpose-all-unfoldings and -fspecialize-aggressively
2024-09-16 21:22:38 +0000 <d34df00d> Now, if I -ddump-inlinings in the consuming module (Matcher.Naive), then I see that `push` gets inlined, ghc saying
2024-09-16 21:22:43 +0000 <d34df00d> > Inlining done: Text.Regex.Memo.Stack.push
2024-09-16 21:22:45 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2024-09-16 21:22:45 +0000 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Text.Regex.Memo.Stack.push’
2024-09-16 21:22:45 +0000 <lambdabot> No module named ‘Text.Regex.Memo.Stack’ is imported.
2024-09-16 21:22:54 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@2607:fb91:140c:10ac:ac39:6af1:8068:4907)
2024-09-16 21:24:16 +0000 <d34df00d> Curiously, if I keep everything in one module, then I _don't_ get the message that `push` was inlined, but performance-wise it behaves as if it did.
2024-09-16 21:24:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 21:24:51 +0000 <d34df00d> So, what's up with cross-module inlining and how can I make it better (for some definition of better) as if I wrote everything in one module, without annotating everything with `{-# INLINE ... #-}`?
2024-09-16 21:25:15 +0000 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.10.1/docs/users_guide/exts/pragmas.html#inline-pragma read carefully the description of how inlining works, and also note the earlier statement that it applies a lot of heuristics
2024-09-16 21:26:50 +0000 <sprout> :t (\f -> f)
2024-09-16 21:26:51 +0000 <lambdabot> p -> p
2024-09-16 21:26:55 +0000 <sprout> :t (\f -> f f)
2024-09-16 21:26:56 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2024-09-16 21:26:56 +0000 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t ~ t -> t1
2024-09-16 21:26:56 +0000 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘f’, namely ‘f’
2024-09-16 21:27:03 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@2607:fb91:140c:10ac:ac39:6af1:8068:4907) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:27:40 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@2607:fb91:8a4:82b7:ad3:f757:ccf9:424d)
2024-09-16 21:27:47 +0000 <geekosaur> exposing unfoldings isn't enough, as you still may need to convince ghc to make use of them. whether it will or not can depend on e.g. what other things it calls and how expensive it judges those to be, with a likely different judgment across modules (I would for example not be surprised if a given judgement doesn't take `-fexpose-all-unfoldings` into account because it's not an explicit `INLINEABLE`)
2024-09-16 21:28:33 +0000target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving)
2024-09-16 21:29:03 +0000 <sprout> > (\f -> f f) id
2024-09-16 21:29:05 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2024-09-16 21:29:05 +0000 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t ~ t -> t
2024-09-16 21:29:05 +0000 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘f’, namely ‘f’
2024-09-16 21:29:21 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:29:23 +0000 <geekosaur> at some point you may need to ask in #ghc, but note that they're preparing for a release so may not be readily available
2024-09-16 21:29:41 +0000 <d34df00d> geekosaur: yep, I think I mostly understand that link, but it doesn't touch too deeply on cross-module stuff.
2024-09-16 21:30:05 +0000morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2024-09-16 21:30:13 +0000 <d34df00d> My mental model is that if a function's unfolding is exposed, then it behaves (from the optimizer POV at least) as if it was defined in the module that's importing the definition.
2024-09-16 21:31:57 +0000 <geekosaur> normally cross-module doesn't matter much if the unfolding is available, but there may be e.g. things that assume explicit `INLINEABLE` vs. `-fexpose-all-unfoldings`. but transitive effects also come into it, and figuring the cost of those may e.g. inadvertently not consider whether a called function also has an available unfolding
2024-09-16 21:32:12 +0000 <geekosaur> inlining is just a little hacky, sadly
2024-09-16 21:33:40 +0000 <d34df00d> Transitivity's a good point, and I've thought about it, but my gut feel is that if all my function does is calling another functions from the same module (that are also exposed) or third-party library code, then it shouldn't matter and the stuff that's transitively pulled in should be equivalent in some sense.
2024-09-16 21:34:15 +0000morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:34:15 +0000 <geekosaur> oh, also read the docs for `INLINABLE`, which is what `-fexpose-all-unfoldings` is doing; it has key differences from `INLINE`
2024-09-16 21:34:59 +0000 <geekosaur> so for compiling within the same module or for explicit `INLINE` you can get different inlining choices from `INLINABLE` or `-fexpose-all-unfoldings`
2024-09-16 21:36:14 +0000 <geekosaur> » Moreover, by annotating `f` as `INLINABLE`, you ensure that `f`’s original RHS is inlined, rather than whatever random optimised version of `f` GHC’s optimiser has produced.
2024-09-16 21:36:28 +0000 <geekosaur> that sounds like another key difference between the two
2024-09-16 21:36:29 +0000 <d34df00d> Oh damn.
2024-09-16 21:36:31 +0000 <d34df00d> I missed that.
2024-09-16 21:36:39 +0000 <d34df00d> That indeed looks like a key reason.
2024-09-16 21:37:11 +0000 <geekosaur> especially since the two can then interact with other inlinings or `RULES` pragmas
2024-09-16 21:37:18 +0000fun-safe-math(~fun-safe-@24.21.106.247) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2024-09-16 21:37:39 +0000 <geekosaur> (leading to the versions of the inlining pragmas with suffixes as a very hacky way to try to control their interactions)
2024-09-16 21:37:47 +0000 <d34df00d> I thought long how to react but I guess I'll just say it feels quite stupid.
2024-09-16 21:38:03 +0000 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.10.1/docs/users_guide/exts/pragmas.html#phase-control
2024-09-16 21:38:23 +0000 <d34df00d> But maybe it's just the intrinsic complexity of both inlining and making sure the intended rules fire.
2024-09-16 21:38:26 +0000 <d34df00d> Meh, programming is hard.
2024-09-16 21:38:28 +0000 <geekosaur> yes
2024-09-16 21:38:33 +0000fun-safe-math(~fun-safe-@24.21.106.247)
2024-09-16 21:38:59 +0000 <geekosaur> compiler technology is far away from being able to work this stuff out automatically
2024-09-16 21:39:12 +0000 <geekosaur> iirc it's something of a constraint satisfaction problem?
2024-09-16 21:39:28 +0000 <d34df00d> But on the other hand, even if it inlines the original version, should the optimizer be able to optimize it as well (or better) after the inlining?
2024-09-16 21:40:24 +0000 <geekosaur> usually yes, but it depends on how other inlinings and `RULES` interact with it, which is why the phase control stuff is provided as a hacky way to force inlinings and rule firings to happen in an optimal order
2024-09-16 21:41:38 +0000 <d34df00d> I'm not quite sure tho I still fully understand this.
2024-09-16 21:41:44 +0000 <d34df00d> The previous bullet says > Like INLINE, the INLINABLE pragma retains a copy of the original RHS for inlining purposes, and persists it in the interface file, regardless of the size of the RHS.
2024-09-16 21:41:56 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 21:42:02 +0000 <d34df00d> Which implies that the same (unoptimized) version gets inlined if I INLINE. So what's the difference?
2024-09-16 21:42:16 +0000 <geekosaur> "regardless of the size of the RHS"
2024-09-16 21:42:31 +0000 <geekosaur> oh, sorry, not quite
2024-09-16 21:42:39 +0000 <d34df00d> Yeah, but neither does keep the optimized version, right?
2024-09-16 21:43:19 +0000 <geekosaur> right. hm, maybe the thing I quoted only applies to the behavior of the magic `inline` "function:
2024-09-16 21:44:04 +0000 <geekosaur> (which is like marking something as `INLINE`, but (a) even more so (b) applies to use sites, whereas `INLINE` applies to the definition)
2024-09-16 21:46:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 21:47:34 +0000 <d34df00d> I'm curious if, when everything is in one module, then ghc first optimizes the function (`push` in this case) and then it's small and nice enough to inline,
2024-09-16 21:48:02 +0000 <d34df00d> but when `push` is defined in another module even with unfolding exposed, then the unoptimized body is exposed, and ghc doesn't inline it because costs, and it has no incentive to try to optimize it again here.
2024-09-16 21:48:08 +0000 <d34df00d> Does that sound plausible?
2024-09-16 21:49:30 +0000 <geekosaur> that sounds very plausible, if I'm reading this stuff correctly (it requires reading between the lines about the `inline` pseudo-function though)
2024-09-16 21:50:18 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2024-09-16 21:50:44 +0000 <d34df00d> That feels… inconsistent, I guess, even taking rules into account.
2024-09-16 21:51:43 +0000 <geekosaur> not sure
2024-09-16 21:51:57 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627)
2024-09-16 21:52:20 +0000 <geekosaur> the store I'm getting is: without INLINE/INLINABLE, functions in the same module can be inlined at the whim of the compiler but may be inlined in a pre-optimized form
2024-09-16 21:52:45 +0000 <geekosaur> with INLINE/INLINABLE, they are (always|possibly) inlined in their original form
2024-09-16 21:53:01 +0000 <geekosaur> *story
2024-09-16 21:55:19 +0000 <d34df00d> Yeah, looking at the Core (after -ddump-simpl), the key function doesn't get inlined without the INLINE pragma.
2024-09-16 21:55:33 +0000 <d34df00d> I'm curious what ghc meant when -ddump-inlinings said that it was inlined.
2024-09-16 21:55:47 +0000 <d34df00d> It it possible to, like, get a trace or something _where_ things get inlined?
2024-09-16 21:57:20 +0000 <geekosaur> I have no idea, sorry
2024-09-16 21:58:36 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 21:59:04 +0000 <d34df00d> No worries!
2024-09-16 21:59:09 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2024-09-16 21:59:12 +0000 <d34df00d> As usual, the hardest part about haskell is reasoning about performance.
2024-09-16 22:01:09 +0000athan_(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-09-16 22:03:13 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 22:03:54 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2024-09-16 22:07:43 +0000ZharMeny`ZharMeny
2024-09-16 22:10:59 +0000hughjfchen(~hughjfche@vmi556545.contaboserver.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 22:11:34 +0000 <geekosaur> tbh if performance matters to me I don't use Haskell. that said, the stuff I do these days mostly doesn't need to squeeze performance
2024-09-16 22:11:47 +0000 <geekosaur> (this is a "right tool for the job" thing)
2024-09-16 22:13:00 +0000 <d34df00d> Well, that's my favourite pastime — trying to understand haskell + performance and maybe make the code slightly better.
2024-09-16 22:14:06 +0000 <geekosaur> in general, the higher level or otherwise more abstracted from the hardware a language is, the harder it is to reason about or get performance
2024-09-16 22:14:40 +0000 <geekosaur> the flip side being that the closer to the HW it is, the harder it is to write in the first place
2024-09-16 22:14:50 +0000 <geekosaur> so it's a balancing act
2024-09-16 22:15:40 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 22:20:05 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-16 22:20:15 +0000lambdaRule(~lambdaRul@d108-172-198-192.bchsia.telus.net)
2024-09-16 22:20:38 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb571c92fe2f1c989eb0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-09-16 22:23:05 +0000 <geekosaur> Haskell and Python make it easy to write what you intend (admittedly, in somewhat different styles), but performance issues are really hard
2024-09-16 22:23:13 +0000 <geekosaur> asm's a nightmare to write
2024-09-16 22:23:33 +0000 <lambdaRule> I'm reading QuickCheck code, the module Poly makes me wonder how those newtype (A,B,C) suppose to be used. (https://github.com/nick8325/quickcheck/blob/d66336ce59e0e3536afcef4f2e147b7028d89dd0/src/Test/Quic…) Anyone knows how?
2024-09-16 22:23:49 +0000 <geekosaur> C makes you do everything yourself and mostly makes it really easy to shoot yourself in the foot, but performance is easy to reason about
2024-09-16 22:24:27 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@2607:fb91:8a4:82b7:ad3:f757:ccf9:424d) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-16 22:24:47 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@2601:14d:4e01:1370:593a:1997:8b5e:410b)
2024-09-16 22:26:33 +0000 <geekosaur> lambdaRule, I believe the point here is that if you have Integers with e.g. different ranges or other constraints, you can either wrap them and derive-through things like Eq yourself, or you can use the predefined A,B,C etc.
2024-09-16 22:27:37 +0000 <geekosaur> (which is in part a hackaround for Haskell not having subtyping)
2024-09-16 22:28:15 +0000 <geekosaur> a third alternative may be to use Liquid Haskell instead, since it has subtyping
2024-09-16 22:30:28 +0000 <geekosaur> for examples, consider that you have ages and number-of-days represented as integers. for testing purposes you might use A for the former and B for the latter. that said, if you have enough of them you may want to do it properly with your own newtype wrappers Age and Day so you can more easily keep straight what represents what
2024-09-16 22:30:41 +0000Square2(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-16 22:31:59 +0000 <EvanR> C performance is easy to reason about?! It regularly outperforms my mental model by orders of magnitude xD
2024-09-16 22:32:07 +0000 <EvanR> it's way too fast
2024-09-16 22:32:30 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 22:32:40 +0000 <geekosaur> lambdarule, anyway, given the stuff they provide for it, that's what it looks like to me
2024-09-16 22:32:46 +0000 <lambdaRule> I have two more questions: 1. A,B,C have same code except their type name, why are they written like that? 2. The header comment of Poly said these data types are used for testing polymorphic properties, how these newtypes would be used differently than simply choose Int to generate data for a poly type?
2024-09-16 22:33:10 +0000 <lambdaRule> --still reading your answers
2024-09-16 22:33:15 +0000 <geekosaur> I am unclear on their use of "polymorphic"
2024-09-16 22:33:24 +0000 <geekosaur> the rest, well, finish reading first
2024-09-16 22:34:15 +0000 <geekosaur> the whole point of `newtype` is that it gives a new name and distinct "identity" to an existing type, so you can treat them differently even though (in this case) they're all "just integers"
2024-09-16 22:34:39 +0000 <geekosaur> for example, adding two ages together doesn't make sense, but ages are integers
2024-09-16 22:35:21 +0000 <EvanR> the candidates collectively have 250 years among them
2024-09-16 22:35:54 +0000 <EvanR> just kidding
2024-09-16 22:36:07 +0000 <monochrom> Computing averages of ages requires adding them. >:)
2024-09-16 22:36:10 +0000 <geekosaur> but act like they have 15
2024-09-16 22:36:58 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 22:36:59 +0000 <monochrom> And yeah also when we say "the two of you have total age 200 why are you still childish"
2024-09-16 22:38:13 +0000 <monochrom> Haha, computing geometric means of ages requires multiplying them, too. >:D
2024-09-16 22:38:30 +0000 <monochrom> And standard deviations etc
2024-09-16 22:38:54 +0000 <geekosaur> yeh, there are exceptions. but in general adding two ages together is a mistake and you want some kind of override operation which by existence says "something special is happening here" / makes you think about whether you're doing something sensible with it
2024-09-16 22:39:08 +0000 <geekosaur> this is the point of `newtype`
2024-09-16 22:39:17 +0000 <monochrom> "How to break typeclass laws with statistics"
2024-09-16 22:39:55 +0000 <geekosaur> but, for simple apps you may skip the newtype, but then you need to test them and use different properties as part of it, so you have the convenience newtypes A,B,C,ordA,ordB,ordC
2024-09-16 22:40:29 +0000 <geekosaur> (the latter being things you can add together but not add unwrapped numbers to without unwrapping them or wrapping the unwrapped number, for example)
2024-09-16 22:40:50 +0000 <monochrom> But more seriously:
2024-09-16 22:40:53 +0000 <geekosaur> this is kinda half-assed type safety for quick and dirty apps
2024-09-16 22:42:09 +0000 <monochrom> PHP has a type for time. Initially, they had a default value for time too. Then there was an outcry, even among PHP people, because no default value can ever make sense for time.
2024-09-16 22:42:33 +0000 <geekosaur> (my own take on which being, if you've reached the point where you're doing property-based testing, you've reached the point where you should do it right up front)
2024-09-16 22:42:55 +0000Guest|84(~Guest|84@178.60.115.105)
2024-09-16 22:43:18 +0000Guest|84(~Guest|84@178.60.115.105) (Client Quit)
2024-09-16 22:43:41 +0000 <monochrom> There was a poorly written basic math textbook that went "old temperature was 100F, new temperature is 120F, what's the percentage increase?" which makes no sense because 0F is also an arbitrary reference point.
2024-09-16 22:45:21 +0000 <geekosaur> and, like time, there's no reasonable reference point for temperature
2024-09-16 22:45:43 +0000 <geekosaur> (in the classical days there was, but then came quantum temperature and ruined it for everyone)
2024-09-16 22:46:41 +0000spew(~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::728c) (Quit: spew)
2024-09-16 22:46:45 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@2601:14d:4e01:1370:593a:1997:8b5e:410b) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-16 22:47:01 +0000spew(~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::728c)
2024-09-16 22:47:04 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@2607:fb91:8a4:82b7:ad3:f757:ccf9:424d)
2024-09-16 22:47:45 +0000 <monochrom> Using 0K as the reference point, and in the context of thermodynamics, "percentage increase" can be a useful notion.
2024-09-16 22:47:55 +0000 <geekosaur> again, only classically
2024-09-16 22:48:22 +0000 <geekosaur> (granting, at the moment if you're talking thermodynamics then you're talking classical physics)
2024-09-16 22:48:24 +0000 <monochrom> But that textbook was for paramedics, and trying poorly to make a word problem that uses paramedic vocabulary.
2024-09-16 22:49:37 +0000 <monochrom> A lot of word problems are really poorly contrived.
2024-09-16 22:50:22 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 22:50:56 +0000 <EvanR> points in space or points in time are intangible, we juggle vectors and matrices all day that represents the moves between them
2024-09-16 22:51:16 +0000 <geekosaur> (damn you, Einstein)
2024-09-16 22:51:31 +0000 <EvanR> there's no rubick's cube only rubick's cube group
2024-09-16 22:52:17 +0000 <EvanR> rubik's cube?!
2024-09-16 22:52:24 +0000 <geekosaur> (and Einstein's not through with us even yet. the latest is evidence that gravity can be repulsive)
2024-09-16 22:53:02 +0000EvanRfires up the gravity capacitor and flies away
2024-09-16 22:53:40 +0000 <geekosaur> won't work here; we're definitely positive compared to the average density of the universe
2024-09-16 22:54:27 +0000 <geekosaur> the trick is the GR transformation matrix (Hamiltonian, I think?) depends on the average density of the universe.
2024-09-16 22:54:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 22:55:08 +0000 <geekosaur> in Einstein's day and for decades afterward, that was considered to be 0 because the universe is mostly empty space.
2024-09-16 22:55:39 +0000lambdaRule(~lambdaRul@d108-172-198-192.bchsia.telus.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-09-16 22:55:47 +0000 <geekosaur> but within the past ~10 years, we've found there's a lot of mass-energy in places we thought were completely empty. which means the average mass-density is positive.
2024-09-16 22:56:36 +0000 <geekosaur> which means any local region where the mass-energy density is less than the average, the transformation matrix is negative: gravity is repulsive
2024-09-16 22:56:54 +0000EvanReyes this story with suspicion
2024-09-16 22:57:25 +0000 <EvanR> the maximally negatively curved milne universe is still pretty cool ngl
2024-09-16 22:58:33 +0000troojg(~troojg@user/troojg)
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2024-09-16 23:08:22 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-16 23:11:06 +0000 <geekosaur> we are known to be in a "cosmic void" (https://www.space.com/hubble-tension-universe-expansion-supervoid)
2024-09-16 23:11:55 +0000 <geekosaur> the question is, is it so void that its mass-energy density is below the universe's average? if it is, then galaxies within the void are being pushed apart
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2024-09-16 23:20:44 +0000 <geekosaur> this has a somewhat more formal description plus a link to a paper
2024-09-16 23:20:46 +0000 <geekosaur> https://manoa.hawaii.edu/news/article.php?aId=8383
2024-09-16 23:22:00 +0000szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2024-09-16 23:23:53 +0000 <geekosaur> although I'm not finding the paper that further claimed that the apparent repulsion was actual repulsion because the average density of the universe is positive instead of 0 and voids have lower than that density
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2024-09-16 23:34:23 +0000 <d34df00d> Also, speaking of performance.
2024-09-16 23:34:35 +0000d34df00dshamelessly plugging https://0xd34df00d.me/posts/2024/09/naive-nfas.html
2024-09-16 23:34:50 +0000 <geekosaur> anyway the claim in the paper I'm remembering is that going by the Milky Way's actual velocity, instead of being pulled into the "Great Attracttor" as originally believed, there's a 16km/s sideways push that means we'll just miss it instead. btu while they could measure it reproducibly, computing the gravitational pulls didn't reproduce that sideways "push"
2024-09-16 23:35:41 +0000 <geekosaur> then the researchers thought "wait a minute. if there are large voids we can see, that means the average density of space must be above the density within those voids, what does this do to the GR transformation matrices?"
2024-09-16 23:36:25 +0000 <geekosaur> the answer turned out to be, within the error bars, a 16km/s repulsion from the void in the UManoa paper I linked
2024-09-16 23:36:42 +0000 <haskellbridge> <@mad:matrix.org> Every time I look at those universe diagrams I get very scared of the cosmic spiders that weave it ...
2024-09-16 23:37:03 +0000 <geekosaur> so GR calculations just got a lot more complicated because all of those zeroes that aren't zeroes any more, so all the shortcuts don't work any more
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2024-09-16 23:48:49 +0000 <dolio> How could the average density be 0? Does that count 'dark energy' as negative density or something?
2024-09-16 23:49:15 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 23:52:45 +0000 <geekosaur> "near enough as no matter": it was believed that, despite all the stuff we can see, the gaps between them all are so large that they massive "outweigh" the mass-energy
2024-09-16 23:53:13 +0000 <dolio> Okay, so not actually 0, but very close.
2024-09-16 23:53:14 +0000 <geekosaur> (think about it: if it weren't very near 0, the sky would be gray at night, not black with some stars visible)
2024-09-16 23:53:17 +0000 <geekosaur> yes
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2024-09-16 23:54:07 +0000 <geekosaur> thing is, while it was thought to be "0, close enough", the very existence of voids says "no, it's not close enough to 0"
2024-09-16 23:55:43 +0000 <geekosaur> if everywhere not containing a galactic supercluster were a void, that'd be one thing. but voids and supervoids turn out to be patchy
2024-09-16 23:59:54 +0000 <geekosaur> this also has a detail that helps to confirm it: the better we get at looking, the more loose matter we see… except in those voids