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2024-08-26 00:26:45 +0000 <EvanR> chatgpt generates bindings for me lol
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2024-08-26 00:40:53 +0000 <probie> My problem with LLMs is that you have to check their work, so you don't end up saving any time
2024-08-26 00:41:14 +0000bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b007:52b2:99e1:c3bf:c468:921)
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2024-08-26 00:58:55 +0000 <EvanR> I check pretty fast
2024-08-26 00:59:10 +0000 <EvanR> random language bindings would take me a while to write out
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2024-08-26 11:44:50 +0000 <mauke> :t let frob (w, b) j ls = go j ls where { go z ((p, f) : xs) | p > w = go (f z) xs; go z xs = (w, b z) : xs } in frob
2024-08-26 11:44:51 +0000 <lambdabot> Ord a => (a, t -> t -> t) -> t -> [(a, t -> t)] -> [(a, t -> t)]
2024-08-26 11:44:55 +0000 <mauke> is this a fold?
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2024-08-26 12:21:06 +0000 <Axman6> I'm having massive deja vu, I swear you've asked this exact question before
2024-08-26 12:21:37 +0000ThePenguin7(~ThePengui@cust-95-80-24-166.csbnet.se)
2024-08-26 12:22:51 +0000 <mauke> that would be scary because it would mean I've completely forgotten the time I ported an obscure parsing algorithm from C to Haskell, gaining a deeper understanding
2024-08-26 12:24:00 +0000 <Axman6> like when you run into a problem for the first time, search for the answer, and the links are purple
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2024-08-26 12:29:17 +0000 <mauke> anyway, this function emulates what in C would be traversing down the right spine of a binary tree and modifying it in place
2024-08-26 12:29:57 +0000 <mauke> only in Haskell the tree is represented as a list of functions in reverse (bottom-up)
2024-08-26 12:31:19 +0000 <Rembane> Is it some kind of continuation passing style?
2024-08-26 12:31:55 +0000 <mauke> no, just layers of tree with "holes" where modifications can happen
2024-08-26 12:32:06 +0000 <mauke> hence the functions
2024-08-26 12:32:42 +0000 <mauke> I suspect the whole thing is just a special case of a well-known general parsing algorithm
2024-08-26 12:32:57 +0000 <Rembane> Got it!
2024-08-26 12:33:10 +0000 <Rembane> That sounds reasonable. Just gotta turn it inside out a couple of times more...
2024-08-26 12:34:10 +0000 <mauke> the basic idea is that when you have a complete expression tree and the next input symbol is a binary infix operator, it needs to be inserted in the tree at the right location
2024-08-26 12:34:42 +0000 <mauke> the right location is somewhere along the rightmost branch. the exact height depends on the precedence/weight of the operator
2024-08-26 12:35:32 +0000cpressey(~weechat@176.254.71.203)
2024-08-26 12:49:02 +0000 <Rembane> That feels super elegant
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2024-08-26 15:52:13 +0000 <tomsmeding> it also feels like it has quadratic complexity in the worst case :p
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2024-08-26 16:05:57 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> Can someone tell me what the type of CTime is in ghcjs?
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2024-08-26 16:07:17 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> I got to: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/ghc-internal/src/GHC/Internal/Foreign/C…
2024-08-26 16:07:35 +0000tomsmeding. o O ( give ghcjs `() :: CTime` and look at the error message )
2024-08-26 16:07:42 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> which says: "ARITHMETIC_TYPE(CTime,"time_t",HTYPE_TIME_T)"
2024-08-26 16:07:49 +0000ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-08-26 16:08:16 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> Ah, well. Its a newtype. But yeah, I can try something like that.
2024-08-26 16:08:20 +0000 <tomsmeding> maralorn https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/ghc-internal/include/CTypes.h#L23-24
2024-08-26 16:10:04 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> Yeah, but how is HTYPE_TIME_T defined?^^
2024-08-26 16:10:14 +0000ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-08-26 16:10:15 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> Seems to be automatically generated.
2024-08-26 16:10:23 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> But I will figure out soon enough with your idea.
2024-08-26 16:12:35 +0000machined1od(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-08-26 16:17:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> maralorn: _build/stage1/libraries/ghc-internal/build/config.status
2024-08-26 16:17:16 +0000comerijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146)
2024-08-26 16:17:19 +0000 <tomsmeding> D["HTYPE_TIME_T"]=" Int64"
2024-08-26 16:17:23 +0000youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Quit: youthlic)
2024-08-26 16:17:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> but that may be system-dependent
2024-08-26 16:20:02 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-08-26 16:21:00 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> It is. In ghcjs it seems to be Int32
2024-08-26 16:21:47 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> Which is unfortunate because it means that getTimeZone crashes for dates auf January 2038 in ghcjs. 😄
2024-08-26 16:21:56 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> * after
2024-08-26 16:21:58 +0000 <tomsmeding> ... oops :D
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2024-08-26 16:34:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> Might someone be able to enlighten me where I can find how ghcjs replaces
2024-08-26 16:34:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> "foreign import ccall unsafe "HsTime.h get_current_timezone_seconds"" with something that works in javascript?
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2024-08-26 16:50:48 +0000 <EvanR> Int64 seems tricky to just have in javascript
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2024-08-26 16:57:19 +0000 <mauke> tomsmeding: funnily enough I think this part might actually be linear
2024-08-26 16:57:52 +0000 <mauke> I never fold over the same nodes twice. any subtree folded over becomes a left child and is not re-traversed
2024-08-26 17:04:40 +0000infinity0(~infinity0@pwned.gg)
2024-08-26 17:07:13 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> if "e" is an expression without WHNF and "[[-]]" is the semantics/evalution function, "[[e]] = ⊥" right?
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2024-08-26 17:08:45 +0000 <tomsmeding> mauke: ah, I didn't catch that part :)
2024-08-26 17:09:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> maralorn: compile four JS files: one without the import, one with the import, one with the import with one use of the function, and one with the import and 2 uses of the function
2024-08-26 17:10:15 +0000 <tomsmeding> hopefully file 1 and file 2 will be distinct, giving you your answer; if not, look at (3 - 1) - (4 - 3)
2024-08-26 17:10:56 +0000 <tomsmeding> (-) being subtraction/difference :p
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2024-08-26 17:48:01 +0000 <tomsmeding> EvanR: JS has BigInt now though ;)
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2024-08-26 18:36:53 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh, a somewhat more accurate statement: if no reduction of "e" produces a WHNF, then evaluation of "e" is non-terminating, so "[[e]] = ⊥"
2024-08-26 18:38:21 +0000 <monochrom> I agree.
2024-08-26 18:38:40 +0000rvalue-(~rvalue@user/rvalue)
2024-08-26 18:38:50 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> nice ty!
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2024-08-26 18:50:31 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, we"d want to distinguish non-terminating expressions that overflow vs. expressions like "[1..]`
2024-08-26 18:50:40 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> * we'd want to distinguish non-terminating expressions that overflow vs. expressions like "\[1..\]\"
2024-08-26 18:50:49 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> * "[1..\]"
2024-08-26 18:50:54 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, we'd want to distinguish non-terminating expressions that overflow vs. expressions like "[1..]"
2024-08-26 18:53:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> mauke: disclaimer, I've spent all of 10 seconds thinking about it, but perhaps Dijkstra's Shunting Yard algorithm is similar?
2024-08-26 18:53:42 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2024-08-26 18:55:39 +0000neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@37.19.200.148)
2024-08-26 18:57:13 +0000 <EvanR> we do distinguish ⊥ from [1..]
2024-08-26 18:57:26 +0000 <EvanR> they are different
2024-08-26 18:57:51 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: what's a decent formal statement for this fact?
2024-08-26 18:58:06 +0000 <EvanR> well, what is [[undefined]] and what is [[ [1..] ]
2024-08-26 18:58:41 +0000 <tomsmeding> do you want to describe call-by-value or call-by-need?
2024-08-26 18:58:46 +0000 <EvanR> this might be a reason why the jargon "non-terminate" is maybe bad
2024-08-26 18:58:52 +0000 <EvanR> "non-terminating"
2024-08-26 18:59:15 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: call by need, so that "[1..]" make sense
2024-08-26 18:59:23 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: hm right
2024-08-26 18:59:26 +0000 <EvanR> ⊥ is the least defined semantic value
2024-08-26 18:59:55 +0000 <EvanR> it's used to represent the meaning of non-terminating computations, and other things
2024-08-26 19:00:02 +0000 <EvanR> meanwhile [1..] isn't non-terminating in that way
2024-08-26 19:00:21 +0000 <EvanR> another way to describe [1..] is productive
2024-08-26 19:00:22 +0000 <tomsmeding> surely, we have [[undefined]] = ⊥, [[1 : undefined]] = 1 : ⊥, [[1 : 2 : undefined]] = 1 : 2 : ⊥
2024-08-26 19:00:46 +0000 <tomsmeding> so then what is [[ [1..] ]]? Dunno, looks like this notation does not scale well enough
2024-08-26 19:01:01 +0000 <EvanR> it is 1 : 2 : ...
2024-08-26 19:01:21 +0000 <EvanR> 1 : 2 : 3 : [[ [4..] ]]
2024-08-26 19:01:22 +0000 <tomsmeding> no, that is 1 : 2 : 4 : 8 : 16 : ...
2024-08-26 19:01:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> the question, what is the type of [[_]]
2024-08-26 19:02:04 +0000 <tomsmeding> Expression -> ?
2024-08-26 19:02:05 +0000 <EvanR> no, it's not xD
2024-08-26 19:02:34 +0000 <EvanR> syntax -> semantics
2024-08-26 19:02:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> EvanR: any finite-length sequence of N numbers followed by "..." can mean anything you want, just fit an N-degree polynomial to it :p
2024-08-26 19:03:03 +0000 <EvanR> well I clarified to something that doesn't use ...
2024-08-26 19:03:08 +0000 <tomsmeding> what is the precise semantical domain, was my question ;)
2024-08-26 19:03:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> yes I was joking
2024-08-26 19:03:35 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: do we absolutely need one
2024-08-26 19:03:39 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> can't we reason by rewriting?
2024-08-26 19:03:40 +0000 <EvanR> you see authors say that the semantic 1 2 3 etc are "the numbers 1 2 and 3"
2024-08-26 19:04:00 +0000 <tomsmeding> EvanR: your equality ([[1 : l]] = 1 : [[l]]) looks nice, but that looks awfully like the semantical domain is "Haskell", which is circular :p
2024-08-26 19:04:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> like i'm trying to avoid domain theory
2024-08-26 19:04:22 +0000 <EvanR> it looks that way doesn't it
2024-08-26 19:04:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> we can definitely reason by rewriting, and then this [[1 : l]] = 1 : [[l]] equality is fine
2024-08-26 19:04:27 +0000 <EvanR> but it's not haskell
2024-08-26 19:04:38 +0000 <monochrom> You cannnot avoid domain theory for infinite lists.
2024-08-26 19:04:58 +0000 <monochrom> or at least, for Haskell infinite lists.
2024-08-26 19:05:16 +0000 <tomsmeding> but if you reason by rewriting, you've defined small-step operational semantics, which is not at all the same as denotational semantics, which is I think what you were originally looking for
2024-08-26 19:06:15 +0000 <EvanR> syntax -> syntax as a semantics doesn't work in haskell because, for one thing infinite stuff
2024-08-26 19:07:13 +0000 <EvanR> and the program that freezes up and produces nothing doesn't have a form
2024-08-26 19:07:23 +0000 <EvanR> you rewrite to empty string? ... no
2024-08-26 19:08:49 +0000 <monochrom> syntax -> syntax as a semantics is OK. It is just operational or equational or axiomatic instead of denotational.
2024-08-26 19:09:09 +0000 <EvanR> it's often the case that haskell is easy to reason about when you pretend ⊥ doesn't happen. But if ⊥ happens it gets more complicated
2024-08-26 19:09:56 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, what sort of operational semantics could distinguish between "[1..]" and "fix \x -> x + 0"?
2024-08-26 19:10:15 +0000 <EvanR> that's easy
2024-08-26 19:10:28 +0000 <EvanR> try to evaluate either to WHNF
2024-08-26 19:10:56 +0000 <EvanR> the results are distinguishable
2024-08-26 19:11:05 +0000 <EvanR> by a competent jury
2024-08-26 19:11:23 +0000 <tomsmeding> operational semantics only describes the next step in evaluation; it doesn't go all the way to the end
2024-08-26 19:11:38 +0000 <monochrom> [1..] is simply enumFrom 1 (as a thunk)
2024-08-26 19:12:17 +0000 <EvanR> if the next step is WHNF, they behave different on the first step
2024-08-26 19:12:25 +0000 <monochrom> If you WHNF it, it's probably something like 0 : enumFrom (0+1), fullstop.
2024-08-26 19:13:05 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm I see
2024-08-26 19:13:07 +0000 <monochrom> whereas fix \x -> x + 0 won't have a WHNF
2024-08-26 19:14:18 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-08-26 19:15:07 +0000 <monochrom> err, 1 : enumFrom (1+1). Why doesn't everyone start from 0?
2024-08-26 19:15:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> to keep you on your toes :)
2024-08-26 19:15:30 +0000 <tomsmeding> ever programmed APL?
2024-08-26 19:15:35 +0000 <monochrom> I can understand why people in real analysis starting from 1.
2024-08-26 19:15:37 +0000 <EvanR> because 1 is first duh
2024-08-26 19:15:43 +0000 <EvanR> 0 is zeroth
2024-08-26 19:15:43 +0000 <monochrom> 0st.
2024-08-26 19:16:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> ( https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Index_origin )
2024-08-26 19:17:45 +0000ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a02:3100:7e98:4100:89bf:d133:e52a:2d93) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-08-26 19:18:13 +0000ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a02:3100:7e98:4100:89bf:d133:e52a:2d93)
2024-08-26 19:20:28 +0000img(~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-08-26 19:22:08 +0000img(~img@user/img)
2024-08-26 19:22:58 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-08-26 19:23:58 +0000 <probie> I think most modern APL uses `⎕IO←0`. Without it, you can't index an array with a boolean, which is inconvenient
2024-08-26 19:24:58 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-26 19:26:50 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm yeah, no satisfactory way to reason about "[1..]" vs "fix \x -> x + 0" without more theory. or limited to operational semantics we might say something like, "[1..]" has intermediary WHNF forms
2024-08-26 19:27:31 +0000 <tomsmeding> I think what monochrom was getting at, is that perhaps [[_]] should only evaluate to WHNF
2024-08-26 19:28:39 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> oh, and the non-terminating behaviour of "ghci> [1..]" would be something due to the Show derivation
2024-08-26 19:28:44 +0000 <tomsmeding> then the codomain of [[_]] would be "values with thunks", "values" being finite combinations of data constructors
2024-08-26 19:28:47 +0000troydm(~troydm@user/troydm) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-08-26 19:29:01 +0000 <tomsmeding> [[ [1..] ]] = [[1]] : [[ [2..] ]]
2024-08-26 19:29:41 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-08-26 19:29:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> perhaps less ambiguously written: [[ [1..] ]] = Thunk{1} : Thunk{[2..]}, where `Thunk{E}` is a thunk resulting from not evaluating expression E
2024-08-26 19:30:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> [[ undefined ]] = ⊥
2024-08-26 19:30:42 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm I see
2024-08-26 19:30:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> but [[ [undefined] ]] = Thunk{undefined} : []
2024-08-26 19:31:05 +0000 <tomsmeding> (perhaps that [] should be in a Thunk{}; not sure)
2024-08-26 19:31:46 +0000 <tomsmeding> I feel like one could make this formal
2024-08-26 19:32:44 +0000 <dolio> Describing printing 'useful' output forever as 'non-terminating' is crude, if the latter is also what is used to describe a non-productive loop.
2024-08-26 19:33:16 +0000 <tomsmeding> (and indeed, with this WHNF definition of [[_]], [1..] terminates!)
2024-08-26 19:34:37 +0000ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a02:3100:7e98:4100:89bf:d133:e52a:2d93) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-08-26 19:34:58 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: yeah I think that works, what was skewing my interpretation was that "ghci> [1..]" evaluates all thunks in "[1..]"
2024-08-26 19:35:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> that's because it tries to evaluate `show [1..]` to NF
2024-08-26 19:35:15 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> dolio: yeah that's what I was trying to fix
2024-08-26 19:35:59 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> right, and "show" is strict
2024-08-26 19:36:18 +0000 <dolio> No, it isn't.
2024-08-26 19:36:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> note that I wrote "NF", not "WHNF"
2024-08-26 19:36:45 +0000 <tomsmeding> `show` on [Int] happens to be strict, though
2024-08-26 19:37:24 +0000target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099)
2024-08-26 19:38:03 +0000 <dolio> > show (undefined :: [Int])
2024-08-26 19:38:04 +0000 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Prelude.undefined
2024-08-26 19:39:19 +0000michalz_(~michalz@185.246.207.222)
2024-08-26 19:40:24 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-26 19:41:16 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.193) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-08-26 19:42:28 +0000 <dolio> I don't think show is strict on any type.
2024-08-26 19:42:46 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-08-26 19:43:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> > show (undefined :: [Int]) `seq` ()
2024-08-26 19:43:38 +0000 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
2024-08-26 19:43:38 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> dolio: don't we have "show undefined" throwing an error on any type for "undefined"?
2024-08-26 19:43:54 +0000 <tomsmeding> dolio: what do you mean precisely? It seems strict to me
2024-08-26 19:44:18 +0000 <tomsmeding> `show` is not strict if the Show instance for the type in question does not define a strict `show` :p
2024-08-26 19:44:22 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2024-08-26 19:44:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> instance Show MyFoolishType where show _ = "foolish"
2024-08-26 19:44:59 +0000 <dolio> Oh, I guess it's the extra layer of show that's non-strict.
2024-08-26 19:45:14 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-08-26 19:45:18 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-08-26 19:45:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> you mean the `"` being printed?
2024-08-26 19:45:32 +0000 <tomsmeding> yeah that's `show . show` not being strict :p
2024-08-26 19:45:38 +0000 <dolio> Yeah. That's String show. I was confusing myself.
2024-08-26 19:45:47 +0000michalz_(~michalz@185.246.207.222) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-08-26 19:46:16 +0000 <EvanR> > show (undefined :: [Char])
2024-08-26 19:46:17 +0000 <lambdabot> "\"*Exception: Prelude.undefined
2024-08-26 19:47:12 +0000 <dolio> Anyhow, show being strict for various types is not relevant to the infintie list example.
2024-08-26 19:48:15 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> maybe non-terminating is still useful here? since "[1..]" is terminating when not evaluated strictly?
2024-08-26 19:48:37 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.205)
2024-08-26 19:48:45 +0000 <dolio> [1..] is well-defined, so being strict in it is fine.
2024-08-26 19:48:47 +0000 <EvanR> you're just conflating at least two different senses of "non-terminating"
2024-08-26 19:48:58 +0000 <EvanR> just admit that it means different things
2024-08-26 19:49:00 +0000 <dolio> > [1..] `seq` ()
2024-08-26 19:49:01 +0000 <tomsmeding> [1..] does not have a normal form, but it does have a weak-head normal form
2024-08-26 19:49:01 +0000 <lambdabot> ()
2024-08-26 19:49:17 +0000 <tomsmeding> that is to say: in WHNF evaluation it terminates; in NF evaluation it does not
2024-08-26 19:49:44 +0000 <dolio> And showing [1..] produces an infinite string, which will then be printed infinitely.
2024-08-26 19:49:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> ghci NF-evaluates `show E` where E is what you entered; for [Int], NF-evaluating `show` happens to NF-evaluate the argument
2024-08-26 19:49:48 +0000 <EvanR> or just stick to more technical and specific stuff like WHNF
2024-08-26 19:50:16 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> doesn't haskell only do "WHNF" evaluation?
2024-08-26 19:50:22 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> * WHNF
2024-08-26 19:50:31 +0000 <EvanR> > rnf [1..]
2024-08-26 19:50:32 +0000 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: rnf :: [a0] -> t
2024-08-26 19:50:50 +0000 <EvanR> you can use the deepseq package to ask for normal forms
2024-08-26 19:51:27 +0000 <EvanR> though it's often more practical to use strict fields or bang patterns for some purpose
2024-08-26 19:51:46 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.205) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-08-26 19:51:54 +0000 <EvanR> strict fields changes how data gets evaluated when
2024-08-26 19:52:34 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> right, don't we have NF evaluation of an argument only when a function is strict in that argument?
2024-08-26 19:52:44 +0000 <EvanR> that's not what strict means
2024-08-26 19:53:00 +0000 <tomsmeding> "strict" in haskell refers to WHNF
2024-08-26 19:53:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> not to NF :)
2024-08-26 19:53:16 +0000JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
2024-08-26 19:53:55 +0000 <EvanR> strict also means specifically that a function necessarily ⊥s when presented with ⊥
2024-08-26 19:54:24 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.205)
2024-08-26 19:54:36 +0000 <EvanR> which doesn't require normal forms to happen
2024-08-26 19:55:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-26 19:55:52 +0000waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-08-26 19:56:25 +0000 <dolio> > show (1:2:3:4:undefined)
2024-08-26 19:56:26 +0000 <lambdabot> "[1,2,3,4*Exception: Prelude.undefined
2024-08-26 19:58:17 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-08-26 19:58:28 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah right I was getting confused. if "f" is strict in "x", "x" still only gets evaluated to the next WHNF
2024-08-26 19:58:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> well, "f is strict" means that x gets evaluated _at least_ to WHNF
2024-08-26 19:58:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> f might evaluate x further
2024-08-26 19:59:10 +0000 <tomsmeding> `length . show` evaluates a whole lot, typically
2024-08-26 19:59:18 +0000 <dolio> id is strict
2024-08-26 19:59:30 +0000 <EvanR> haha yeah
2024-08-26 19:59:40 +0000 <EvanR> strict without having to evaluate anything at all!
2024-08-26 20:00:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-08-26 20:00:22 +0000 <EvanR> where do all these random associations between evaluation and strictness come from!
2024-08-26 20:00:34 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> profound confusion
2024-08-26 20:01:04 +0000 <mauke> const undefined is strict
2024-08-26 20:07:34 +0000 <tomsmeding> GHC's demand analysis calls 'const undefined' "hyper-strict", and 'id' "lazy"
2024-08-26 20:07:54 +0000 <tomsmeding> comparing https://play.haskell.org/saved/J0yapC7k with the table halfway down https://bgamari.github.io/posts/2015-01-19-understanding-ghc-core.html
2024-08-26 20:11:14 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2024-08-26 20:11:15 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-26 20:11:26 +0000stef204(~stef204@user/stef204)
2024-08-26 20:13:59 +0000 <EvanR> good, that settles another myth, that lazy = non-strict
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2024-08-26 20:16:21 +0000 <tomsmeding> I always get annoyed that there is not a single up-to-date source of truth to what the demand annotation notation means
2024-08-26 20:16:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> that blog post is from 2015 and it seems outdated, because I get 1L from GHC and the blog post describes 1*L
2024-08-26 20:16:51 +0000 <tomsmeding> I never can find anything in the source, and the wiki also doesn't seem to have anything
2024-08-26 20:16:57 +0000ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-08-26 20:17:09 +0000 <tomsmeding> but the GHC source makes _extensive_ use of the notation in Notes in the demand analyser
2024-08-26 20:17:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> with gems like P(AAAdAAAAA)
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2024-08-26 21:32:23 +0000 <__monty__> The User's Guide does mention the notation. Not sure whether it's up to date nor whether it's as detailed as you want though.
2024-08-26 21:41:42 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-08-26 21:48:00 +0000 <tomsmeding> oh _there_ it was!
2024-08-26 21:48:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> __monty__: thanks
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2024-08-26 22:30:04 +0000 <zero> i'm trying to get my head aroud the Tardis Monad. any good resource?
2024-08-26 22:30:41 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2024-08-26 22:31:30 +0000 <probie> <joke>Yes, but they're all in the future</joke>
2024-08-26 22:32:01 +0000 <Rembane> zero: Like this? https://blog.csongor.co.uk/time-travel-in-haskell-for-dummies/
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2024-08-26 22:36:52 +0000 <dmj`> when did "Just v <- M.lookup k m = v" become "non-standard" pattern guard usage
2024-08-26 22:37:10 +0000 <dmj`> "| Just v <- " ...
2024-08-26 22:38:21 +0000 <probie> context?
2024-08-26 22:39:01 +0000finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192)
2024-08-26 22:41:09 +0000 <dmj`> just getting this warning
2024-08-26 22:42:19 +0000ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a02:3100:7e98:4100:89bf:d133:e52a:2d93) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-08-26 22:42:27 +0000 <dmj`> but its clearly part of the 2010 spec
2024-08-26 22:44:52 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-26 22:46:06 +0000 <zero> Rembane: that's the one i just read :)
2024-08-26 22:46:19 +0000 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> "Just value <- lookup key map = value` is weird, what i are you trying to achieve?
2024-08-26 22:46:40 +0000 <geekosaur> looks sensible to me as a pattern guard
2024-08-26 22:46:47 +0000 <Rembane> zero: Sweet, that's the only one I've seen so far. :)
2024-08-26 22:47:04 +0000 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Inside a monadic assignment thingie?
2024-08-26 22:47:08 +0000 <geekosaur> "if the result of `lookup key map` is `Just v`, produce `v`"
2024-08-26 22:47:20 +0000 <geekosaur> it's not monadic assignment, it's a pttern guard
2024-08-26 22:47:24 +0000 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Huh, what if it is not? Exception
2024-08-26 22:47:40 +0000 <geekosaur> no, if it's not, the guard fails to match
2024-08-26 22:47:50 +0000 <geekosaur> look up pattern guards
2024-08-26 22:48:04 +0000 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> I know about those, i just never seen that form, or im too tired
2024-08-26 22:48:36 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Read error: Connection timed out)
2024-08-26 22:48:41 +0000 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Okay i guess i dont know about those
2024-08-26 22:48:48 +0000 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Well, TIL
2024-08-26 22:50:00 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-08-26 22:52:21 +0000 <zero> why do we need parenthesis around Data.Map.!? in `:type (Data.Map.!?)` inside ghci?
2024-08-26 22:53:21 +0000 <zero> ah i guess i get it
2024-08-26 22:53:25 +0000 <zero> needs to be an expression
2024-08-26 22:56:12 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-08-26 22:57:53 +0000 <jle`> zero: fwiw :info Data.Map.!? works
2024-08-26 23:00:08 +0000AlexNoo_(~AlexNoo@178.34.150.250)
2024-08-26 23:00:17 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-26 23:03:16 +0000AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@178.34.150.250) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-26 23:04:18 +0000 <dmj`> geekosaur: ghc 9.6.5 thinks otherwise :(
2024-08-26 23:04:20 +0000son0p(~ff@2800:e2:f80:ee7::1)
2024-08-26 23:04:36 +0000 <dmj`> magic_rb: there's soft pattern match failures, like what catMaybes does
2024-08-26 23:04:41 +0000 <dmj`> @src catMaybes
2024-08-26 23:04:41 +0000 <lambdabot> catMaybes ls = [x | Just x <- ls]
2024-08-26 23:05:17 +0000 <dmj`> pattern match failure in guards soft fail like the ones in list comps
2024-08-26 23:05:51 +0000 <dmj`> | Just (TVar k) <- M.lookup t s = TVar k
2024-08-26 23:06:18 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-08-26 23:07:00 +0000 <zero> jle`: yup, :info works with identifiers, :type works with expressions
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2024-08-26 23:17:45 +0000 <dmj`> foldl' finally made it into the Prelude, never thought I'd see the day
2024-08-26 23:18:05 +0000 <dmj`> * fights back tears *
2024-08-26 23:18:37 +0000 <EvanR> one down, like 900 other things that should be in prelude to go xD
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2024-08-26 23:21:42 +0000 <dmj`> base should just eat mtl, transformers, text, aeson, time, haddock, cabal, etc. maybe more boot packages
2024-08-26 23:21:46 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-08-26 23:24:45 +0000 <EvanR> batteries
2024-08-26 23:26:12 +0000 <probie> I don't think aeson belongs on that list
2024-08-26 23:27:13 +0000stef204(~stef204@user/stef204) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.1)
2024-08-26 23:27:41 +0000 <dmj`> EvanR: boom
2024-08-26 23:27:45 +0000 <probie> It's too opinionated and has (what I consider to be) the wrong opinions (I'm not a fan of `ToJSON`/`FromJSON` typeclasses, because how to serialise depends on context and isn't a property a type itself)
2024-08-26 23:29:42 +0000 <EvanR> what other json libraries are there
2024-08-26 23:29:52 +0000 <dmj`> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.10.1/docs/GHC-Utils-Json.html
2024-08-26 23:31:04 +0000 <zero> i dont think mtl, transformers, aeson and time belong on that list
2024-08-26 23:31:12 +0000 <zero> not sure about haddock and cabal
2024-08-26 23:31:32 +0000 <probie> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/waargonaut
2024-08-26 23:32:36 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-26 23:33:07 +0000 <glguy> putting things into base just makes them harder to upgrade, not easier to use
2024-08-26 23:33:46 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-08-26 23:34:08 +0000 <zero> exactly
2024-08-26 23:34:30 +0000 <dolio> mtl was split out of base long ago.
2024-08-26 23:35:24 +0000 <zero> mtl serves a very opinionated pattern that many refuse to use
2024-08-26 23:35:42 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2024-08-26 23:36:02 +0000 <zero> it would be like having lens libraries in base
2024-08-26 23:36:55 +0000 <dmj`> if we could divorce ghc from base that might help, or base from ghc rather. I think parts of the rts depend on base
2024-08-26 23:37:07 +0000 <geekosaur> it's in progress
2024-08-26 23:37:13 +0000 <zero> that would be nice
2024-08-26 23:37:39 +0000 <dmj`> well, well
2024-08-26 23:37:48 +0000 <geekosaur> there are a very few things, mostly ghc wired-in things, that depend on base. those are being moved to ghc-base, which is intended to be minimal
2024-08-26 23:38:06 +0000 <geekosaur> (you will see ghc-base already in 9.10 and I think 9.8)
2024-08-26 23:38:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-26 23:38:29 +0000 <dmj`> is this the balkanization effort Ericson was / is working on
2024-08-26 23:38:47 +0000 <zero> and hopefully updated once in a blue moon
2024-08-26 23:39:14 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
2024-08-26 23:40:00 +0000 <geekosaur> similarly there are things being moved to ghc-internal, but that's more complicated as it'll depend to some extent on the "actually standardize ghc-api" effort which is still in the planning phase
2024-08-26 23:40:46 +0000 <geekosaur> don't recall who's working on it, have seen some discussion though
2024-08-26 23:40:56 +0000 <dmj`> what if we just imported everything into a single module, and let the optimizer do it's thing, don't rely on interface files
2024-08-26 23:41:41 +0000 <geekosaur> isn't that effectively WPC?
2024-08-26 23:41:41 +0000 <c_wraith> there are some things in GHC that are superlinear in module size, but not in module count
2024-08-26 23:41:45 +0000 <zero> things keep moving in a good direction
2024-08-26 23:41:45 +0000 <zero> slowly but steadily
2024-08-26 23:43:46 +0000 <zero> someone once explained in detail why WPC is not posssible in haskell
2024-08-26 23:44:08 +0000 <dmj`> zero: do you have a link to that?
2024-08-26 23:44:57 +0000 <dmj`> geekosaur: yea, but its still optimizations on a higher order IR, if we defunctionalized first we'd probably have better results with optimization
2024-08-26 23:44:58 +0000 <geekosaur> the GRIN project was working on that. sadly I think it stalled, possibly over the superlinearity issue
2024-08-26 23:45:14 +0000 <zero> unfortunately i lost most my IRC logs from that time, but maybe they can be found at ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com
2024-08-26 23:45:22 +0000 <zero> it was a few years ago though
2024-08-26 23:46:21 +0000 <geekosaur> sadly its search doesn't work and I think search engines and such are prohibited from indexing it?
2024-08-26 23:46:53 +0000 <dmj`> zero: if its possible in ocaml w/ mlton, shouldn't be a problem w/ haskell
2024-08-26 23:47:29 +0000 <dmj`> ocaml has gadts and higher order functions
2024-08-26 23:49:17 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-26 23:49:35 +0000 <geekosaur> I'm not aware of any explanations of why WPC would be impossible. I am aware of an explanation of why even with WPC it's not possible to eliminate typeclass dictionaries at compile time; might that have been what you remember?
2024-08-26 23:50:00 +0000 <geekosaur> (polymorphic recursion)
2024-08-26 23:53:57 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-08-26 23:55:59 +0000 <dmj`> rust just disables polymorphic recursion iirc, for haskell we could compile it differently. Instead of just attempting to inline into oblivion, there is a technique called intensional type analysis (that oleg discusses) that detects polymorphic recursion and basically constructs a mini interpreter from the type language. Converts it into a recursive expression tree
2024-08-26 23:56:05 +0000 <dmj`> https://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/typeclass.html#intensional
2024-08-26 23:56:39 +0000 <dmj`> I think flix.dev disables it too, as a "feature"
2024-08-26 23:56:51 +0000 <dmj`> since the gains from inlining are so huge
2024-08-26 23:57:49 +0000 <dmj`> I'd just disable it first, see how much stuff breaks w/o it