| 2024-06-17 00:01:49 +0200 | <monochrom> | ObHaskell: I just lament (rejoice?) that C doesn't have binary syntax, GHC does. :) |
| 2024-06-17 00:02:09 +0200 | <EvanR> | just to clarify, 10_10 |
| 2024-06-17 00:02:14 +0200 | <EvanR> | 10_10_10_10_... |
| 2024-06-17 00:02:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | Proof by intimidation. Clarification by repetition. :) |
| 2024-06-17 00:03:38 +0200 | <EvanR> | five = 12_10 |
| 2024-06-17 00:03:59 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 00:04:13 +0200 | <dolio> | Yeah, that actually doesn't clarify anything. |
| 2024-06-17 00:04:27 +0200 | <monochrom> | Hey people who like the Cantor set may like that too. :) |
| 2024-06-17 00:04:31 +0200 | <brett303> | 31337 being the 3379th prime |
| 2024-06-17 00:04:51 +0200 | hololeap | (~quassel@user/hololeap) (Quit: Bye) |
| 2024-06-17 00:05:36 +0200 | hololeap | (~quassel@user/hololeap) |
| 2024-06-17 00:06:17 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-17 00:06:26 +0200 | <cheater> | given that there are bugs about performance in monorepos, i'd guess hls does work in monorepos https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/issues/2151 |
| 2024-06-17 00:07:11 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 00:07:14 +0200 | <EvanR> | on the scientific calculator log_10 means one thing, but the programmer's calculator it should be another xD |
| 2024-06-17 00:07:48 +0200 | <EvanR> | 10 kinds of calculator |
| 2024-06-17 00:07:53 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) |
| 2024-06-17 00:08:17 +0200 | <brett303> | does haskell just not work on arm64? |
| 2024-06-17 00:08:35 +0200 | <monochrom> | Haha EvanR yes! |
| 2024-06-17 00:08:50 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 00:09:32 +0200 | <monochrom> | I think haskell works on arm64. I heard people ran ghc on android phones. I don't know how easy though, probably not easy. |
| 2024-06-17 00:09:48 +0200 | <hololeap> | I just guided someone to install ghc-9.4 on arm64 on Gentoo |
| 2024-06-17 00:10:03 +0200 | <hololeap> | not sure how much pain remains for them though |
| 2024-06-17 00:11:12 +0200 | <brett303> | Oh yeah Gentoo has building from source as a strength |
| 2024-06-17 00:11:23 +0200 | <brett303> | I'm on Debian on my arm64 |
| 2024-06-17 00:11:45 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) |
| 2024-06-17 00:11:57 +0200 | <hololeap> | they built ghc-9.4.8 with https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/9.4.3/ghc-9.4.3-aarch64-deb10-linux.tar.xz |
| 2024-06-17 00:12:22 +0200 | <hololeap> | using https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/9.8.2/hadrian-bootstrap-sources/hadrian-bootstrap-sources-9.4.3… |
| 2024-06-17 00:12:55 +0200 | <hololeap> | just saying it's possible |
| 2024-06-17 00:13:07 +0200 | <brett303> | ok thank you |
| 2024-06-17 00:13:12 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc91484bcbbc96a78a6f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 00:14:07 +0200 | <hololeap> | there's also a aarch64-deb10 tarball for other versions. I just wanted it to match the hadrian-bootstrap-sources version |
| 2024-06-17 00:14:18 +0200 | <monochrom> | Tangentially, I teach a Unix course and I recommend students who prefer staying with Windows or Mac to install Ubuntu in VirtualBox. Except that it doesn't exist for M1/M2. Last year we were stuck. This year fortunately I stumbled across UTM (https://docs.getutm.app/installation/macos/), so that's something. But next up is Ubuntu simply doesn't make a desktop installer for arm64, you have to install server then "apt install ubuntu-desktop". |
| 2024-06-17 00:15:06 +0200 | <monochrom> | I'm trying to say that a lot of software and people have not caught up to arm and M1/M2. It is a little bit shameful. |
| 2024-06-17 00:15:36 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-06-17 00:19:41 +0200 | <EvanR> | students don't telnet into the mainframe?! |
| 2024-06-17 00:20:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | for a unix course at a university |
| 2024-06-17 00:20:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | a mainframe running, ahem... unix? lol |
| 2024-06-17 00:20:29 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh, a lot of them are too lazy to install anything, so they ssh into the school server. Close enough. |
| 2024-06-17 00:21:14 +0200 | JamesMowery | (~JamesMowe@ip98-167-207-182.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 2024-06-17 00:21:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> monochrom: multipass is/was very good for running ubuntu on macs. A mac firewall bug has been breaking it for a while but they might have a workaround now |
| 2024-06-17 00:23:59 +0200 | oo_miguel | (~Thunderbi@78-11-181-16.static.ip.netia.com.pl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 00:34:35 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
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| 2024-06-17 00:53:39 +0200 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) |
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| 2024-06-17 01:11:09 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-17 01:15:44 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 01:19:28 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 01:19:58 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 01:20:03 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 01:22:42 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-17 01:22:43 +0200 | spenat | (~spenat@c-1125235c.012-6-62726f1.bbcust.telenor.se) |
| 2024-06-17 01:23:22 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 01:30:55 +0200 | <jjhoo> | really no virtualbox for apple m2? I guess I want to keep my intel-based macbook pro as long as possible |
| 2024-06-17 01:33:38 +0200 | <geekosaur> | apparently it's in beta and still has a lot of limitations |
| 2024-06-17 01:34:53 +0200 | <geekosaur> | apple seems to have gone to a lot of effort to be as un-ARM as possible with their ARM-based products |
| 2024-06-17 01:38:43 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 01:40:37 +0200 | <cheater> | is the hls integration in vim way worse than nvim, or are they pretty much the same? |
| 2024-06-17 01:42:43 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
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| 2024-06-17 01:46:46 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
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| 2024-06-17 02:00:20 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 02:01:45 +0200 | zzz | (~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 02:02:02 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-06-17 02:03:17 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 02:06:27 +0200 | jinsun | (~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 02:08:42 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) |
| 2024-06-17 02:14:33 +0200 | joeyadams | (~joeyadams@2603:6010:5100:2ed:1cec:9f59:c786:1af1) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-17 02:14:50 +0200 | dmj` | (uid72307@id-72307.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2024-06-17 02:18:19 +0200 | <Axman6> | geekosaur: how so? |
| 2024-06-17 02:18:39 +0200 | <Axman6> | Just don't use register 18 and you're all good =) |
| 2024-06-17 02:29:17 +0200 | <geekosaur> | what about that whole thing about not promoting values that required a redesign of ghc's backend? |
| 2024-06-17 02:30:12 +0200 | <Axman6> | not sure what you mean |
| 2024-06-17 02:30:42 +0200 | <geekosaur> | ghc had to switch to using exact sizes for types because extending to word size violated Apple's special ABI |
| 2024-06-17 02:30:45 +0200 | <Axman6> | I spent quite a lot of time spelunking in the aarch64 backend and haven't seen anything macos specific |
| 2024-06-17 02:30:56 +0200 | <geekosaur> | no, they changed it across the board |
| 2024-06-17 02:31:22 +0200 | <Axman6> | Oh, I thought that was an intentional thing, because being able to store Word8 in less than a full Word is great |
| 2024-06-17 02:31:23 +0200 | <geekosaur> | but it was a fairly massive effort because a lot of ghc assumed that things were machien word-sized |
| 2024-06-17 02:31:54 +0200 | <geekosaur> | it was something they wanted to do at some point but apple's ARM ABI forced it on them |
| 2024-06-17 02:32:12 +0200 | <Axman6> | Sounds like a good thing to me =) |
| 2024-06-17 02:34:08 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 02:35:17 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2024-06-17 02:35:42 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) |
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| 2024-06-17 02:40:05 +0200 | k_hachig | (~k_hachig@bras-base-mtrlpq42zf4-grc-08-65-94-221-127.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
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| 2024-06-17 02:40:51 +0200 | mIRC-rockcavera | (~mirc-rc@186.214.132.97) () |
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| 2024-06-17 02:58:43 +0200 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@117.147.70.212) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2024-06-17 03:10:51 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 03:11:13 +0200 | <monochrom> | Poor GHC devs. But maybe it's a good thing in the long run. |
| 2024-06-17 03:13:47 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@146.52.130.128) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 03:16:21 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@146.52.130.128) |
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| 2024-06-17 03:37:48 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
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| 2024-06-17 03:43:27 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 03:44:11 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
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| 2024-06-17 03:53:19 +0200 | <iqubic> | Ugh... Haskell Layout Rules are being a pain. Why doesn't this work? https://gist.github.com/IQubic/f8262777ebc4f9b9afe6b6aec895ea46 |
| 2024-06-17 03:54:01 +0200 | <iqubic> | That's a snippet of my XMonad config that I'm trying to compile, and I can't seem to do so. |
| 2024-06-17 03:55:27 +0200 | <Leary> | iqubic: That's not layout, you're just one ) short of an expression. |
| 2024-06-17 03:55:43 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:3ca7:5236:8f09:cdd0) (Quit: xff0x) |
| 2024-06-17 03:56:09 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I told them that in #xmonad, they don't seem to have noticed yet |
| 2024-06-17 03:57:07 +0200 | <iqubic> | I have noticed. I posted this in both locations like 20 seconds apart. |
| 2024-06-17 03:57:29 +0200 | <iqubic> | Hmm... Now I'm running into a different issue. |
| 2024-06-17 03:57:48 +0200 | <geekosaur> | that's probably the indentation issue I noted? |
| 2024-06-17 03:58:17 +0200 | <iqubic> | No. It's a different issue. I'm trying to split up my code over two files and it's not working. |
| 2024-06-17 03:58:17 +0200 | <geekosaur> | compare https://github.com/geekosaur/xmonad.hs/blob/hilfy-2023/xmonad.hs#L94-L132 |
| 2024-06-17 03:58:47 +0200 | <geekosaur> | mm, right, since that's not inside layout it might dtrt |
| 2024-06-17 03:59:28 +0200 | <geekosaur> | in general indenting a continuation <= the start of an expression is asking for trouble; it's a bad habit because it'll bite you if layout is in effect at that point |
| 2024-06-17 04:00:04 +0200 | <geekosaur> | can you gist an example of your current problem? |
| 2024-06-17 04:01:58 +0200 | sudden | (~cat@user/sudden) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 04:05:23 +0200 | <iqubic> | I'm preparing that now. |
| 2024-06-17 04:07:02 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 04:07:40 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 04:11:52 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 04:12:42 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.22.252.56) |
| 2024-06-17 04:15:11 +0200 | sudden | (~cat@user/sudden) |
| 2024-06-17 04:17:03 +0200 | <iqubic> | These files are in a little bit of a weird order, but this should be the info that explains my issue: https://gist.github.com/IQubic/4651c2428459026d01df8677acd8495a |
| 2024-06-17 04:19:27 +0200 | johnw | (~johnw@69.62.242.138) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 04:19:44 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 04:19:45 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (1) if you're using cabal, you should have Catppuccin in other-modules (2) case matters: the file must be named Catppuccin.hs |
| 2024-06-17 04:20:25 +0200 | <iqubic> | Got it. |
| 2024-06-17 04:24:35 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 04:31:46 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:101d:c575:8000::) |
| 2024-06-17 04:33:51 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 04:34:12 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 04:34:36 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:101d:c575:8000::) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-17 04:36:50 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:3ca7:5236:8f09:cdd0) |
| 2024-06-17 04:39:16 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 04:39:45 +0200 | <iqubic> | I now have this compiling. Thanks! |
| 2024-06-17 04:41:03 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 04:43:19 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 04:46:16 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 04:51:51 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 04:54:14 +0200 | ethantwardy | (user@user/ethantwardy) (Quit: WeeChat 4.3.2) |
| 2024-06-17 04:56:10 +0200 | ethantwardy | (user@user/ethantwardy) |
| 2024-06-17 04:59:20 +0200 | nkatte | (~nkatte@user/nkatte) (Quit: nkatte) |
| 2024-06-17 04:59:36 +0200 | <Leary> | Is there good name for fragments of module hierarchy? Like, if I have Foo.Bar.Quux, what do I call Bar? |
| 2024-06-17 05:00:15 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870926.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 05:01:38 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870910.versanet.de) |
| 2024-06-17 05:02:24 +0200 | <geekosaur> | there isn't one, because in some sense Bar doesn't exist |
| 2024-06-17 05:03:40 +0200 | <geekosaur> | there is a convention that if you have Foo.Bar.Baz and Foo.Bar.Quux then Baz.hs and Quux.hs are in Foo/Bar, but the two aren't related so Bar kinda isn't really a thing as far as Haskell is concerned |
| 2024-06-17 05:05:46 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 05:10:11 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 05:10:26 +0200 | bilegeek | (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b016:b974:aae0:2a8c:3137:aa88) |
| 2024-06-17 05:10:48 +0200 | <Leary> | Well, I'm discussing changes to module hierarchy in a commit message---it would be easier if we had words for these things. I'll just settle for "module namespace". |
| 2024-06-17 05:13:52 +0200 | <joeyadams> | How about "segments"? |
| 2024-06-17 05:14:20 +0200 | Unicorn_Princess | (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) |
| 2024-06-17 05:16:55 +0200 | <monochrom> | It would be easier if people accepted using numbers for these things. 1st, 2nd, 3rd. |
| 2024-06-17 05:17:15 +0200 | <geekosaur> | it's not really a namespace, though, it's just a name qualifier component |
| 2024-06-17 05:19:19 +0200 | <geekosaur> | the Report just calls them "conids" but that's a lexical concept |
| 2024-06-17 05:19:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | 1st ID, 2nd ID, 3rd ID :) |
| 2024-06-17 05:19:57 +0200 | <cheater> | segments of the module namespace |
| 2024-06-17 05:24:52 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 05:25:02 +0200 | <monochrom> | You can be inspired by Western naming conventions and think of First Name, Middle Name, Last Name. >:) |
| 2024-06-17 05:25:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | I am just not convinced that it is always a fixed number like 3. Look at the full names of British royalty... |
| 2024-06-17 05:29:15 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 05:30:01 +0200 | <cheater> | take a look at spanish names |
| 2024-06-17 05:40:44 +0200 | aforemny_ | (~aforemny@i59F516FA.versanet.de) |
| 2024-06-17 05:40:58 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@i59F516F9.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 05:43:12 +0200 | brett303 | (~brett@cpc91312-watf11-2-0-cust1213.15-2.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-17 05:44:33 +0200 | JimL | (~quassel@89.162.16.26) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
| 2024-06-17 05:45:28 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 05:45:42 +0200 | Unicorn_Princess | (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 05:47:33 +0200 | JimL | (~quassel@89.162.16.26) |
| 2024-06-17 05:49:11 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 05:50:53 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 05:57:19 +0200 | k_hachig | (~k_hachig@bras-base-mtrlpq42zf4-grc-08-65-94-221-127.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 2024-06-17 06:05:04 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 06:09:25 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 06:10:31 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 06:35:39 +0200 | philopsos | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-06-17 06:38:21 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
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| 2024-06-17 06:44:51 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.22.252.56) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 06:45:34 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 06:47:58 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 06:54:05 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 06:54:29 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 06:54:51 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-072-224.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-17 06:55:39 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-06-17 06:58:18 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.215) |
| 2024-06-17 06:59:44 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) |
| 2024-06-17 07:02:39 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-072-224.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 07:04:45 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 07:10:41 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 07:13:29 +0200 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | lol: Haskell is a programming language invented sometime in the 20th century by Scottish logicians as a prank.¹ Fifteen years or so ago, for reasons I can no longer remotely recall, I started learning Haskell. Now, I have finally written a useful program in Haskell, and I am pretty sure I can do it again, if I ever need another computer program. |
| 2024-06-17 07:14:10 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc39d0437a9dd700f698.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-06-17 07:14:45 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 07:17:09 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 07:17:17 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-072-224.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-17 07:19:37 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 07:21:03 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-072-224.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 07:21:30 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 07:22:22 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 07:25:35 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.215) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.0 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-06-17 07:27:40 +0200 | <iqubic> | Is possible to tell cabal that my Haskell source files for my project are in the same directory as the cabal file itself? |
| 2024-06-17 07:27:52 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-06-17 07:28:23 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.193) |
| 2024-06-17 07:29:46 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 07:30:07 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 07:30:09 +0200 | <iqubic> | Like, I want to have foo.cabal, Bar.hs, and Baz.hs all in the same directory. |
| 2024-06-17 07:30:18 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 07:31:06 +0200 | <sclv> | sure. just remove the src directory directive from the lib stanza iirc |
| 2024-06-17 07:31:20 +0200 | <sclv> | or maybe set it to ., i forget if that works |
| 2024-06-17 07:31:40 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-072-224.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-17 07:31:58 +0200 | philopsos | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) |
| 2024-06-17 07:32:31 +0200 | <sclv> | old haskell packages all used to be like that. but once we started having libs and exes ant test suites separate and wanting to keep source code cleanly removed from build artifacts the conventions changed |
| 2024-06-17 07:33:42 +0200 | <iqubic> | setting it to . doesn't seem to be working for me. |
| 2024-06-17 07:34:26 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 07:34:47 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 07:36:42 +0200 | <iqubic> | https://dpaste.com/HYGV5FWMS |
| 2024-06-17 07:36:48 +0200 | <iqubic> | That doesn't seem to be working... |
| 2024-06-17 07:37:12 +0200 | <iqubic> | Probably something weird with me trying to use cabal and nix. |
| 2024-06-17 07:37:37 +0200 | <iqubic> | I'm trying to get cabal2nix to work for me, and it's giving me parse errors. |
| 2024-06-17 07:38:47 +0200 | <joeyadams> | Try hs-source-dirs: ./ |
| 2024-06-17 07:39:34 +0200 | <iqubic> | https://dpaste.com/69KBH2ZB4 |
| 2024-06-17 07:40:41 +0200 | <iqubic> | Nope... I think this is a nix issue. |
| 2024-06-17 07:46:34 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2024-06-17 07:46:59 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) |
| 2024-06-17 07:49:13 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
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| 2024-06-17 07:50:34 +0200 | k_hachig | (~k_hachig@bras-base-mtrlpq42zf4-grc-08-65-94-221-127.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
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| 2024-06-17 08:08:01 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:1a:21b5:8000::) |
| 2024-06-17 08:08:55 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:1a:21b5:8000::) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 08:36:32 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.37.209.49) |
| 2024-06-17 08:37:19 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 08:38:43 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:1a:21b5:8000::) |
| 2024-06-17 08:41:28 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 08:45:36 +0200 | bilegeek | (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b016:b974:aae0:2a8c:3137:aa88) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-17 08:46:37 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@175.136.155.137) |
| 2024-06-17 08:48:25 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 08:49:12 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | good morning, i received a comment from a colleague that made me think. I wrote some code following intuition but i cannot pinpoint that it works correctly |
| 2024-06-17 08:50:00 +0200 | sord937 | (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) |
| 2024-06-17 08:50:00 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | i have a function `a -> b -> c -> d` which gets partially applied so that we can just use `c -> d` with `c` varying more often |
| 2024-06-17 08:50:31 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | internally, the function does some expensive calculation that does not depend on `c` |
| 2024-06-17 08:51:01 +0200 | <Axman6> | foo a b = let expensive = ... a ... b in \c -> theRest? |
| 2024-06-17 08:51:01 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | my intuition is that the expensive computation would not be repeated for each varying `c` |
| 2024-06-17 08:51:40 +0200 | <Axman6> | That may depend on how it's written - what I've written above should avoid any repeated calculateion (assuming c's type doesn't change bettween different calls) |
| 2024-06-17 08:51:46 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | thanks axman, you get close to my question. Do i need to assign something with `let` or something else for my assumption to be true? |
| 2024-06-17 08:51:49 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 08:52:26 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | i thought non-strict evaluation would be enough |
| 2024-06-17 08:53:56 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 08:54:28 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-06-17 08:58:23 +0200 | <Leary> | danse-nr3: It's up to the whims of the optimiser whether or not to inline your lets, whether or not to float them out, etc. Since it's clever you'll usually see the better outcomes, but if you want to be sure then you need to /make/ sure. The way to get certain sharing is to write let before you take arguments or constraints and NOINLINE the binding. |
| 2024-06-17 08:59:13 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-17 08:59:52 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-072-224.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 08:59:57 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 09:00:35 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | thanks Leary. Do you know about any doc i could read to understand this better? |
| 2024-06-17 09:01:12 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-194-173.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-17 09:01:57 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-194-173.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 09:02:15 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 09:03:00 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | i thoughts thunks will work so that an evaluated value gets reused regardless |
| 2024-06-17 09:03:26 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | *would work |
| 2024-06-17 09:04:35 +0200 | philopsos1 | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) |
| 2024-06-17 09:04:59 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) |
| 2024-06-17 09:07:44 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:1a:21b5:8000::) (Quit: Quit) |
| 2024-06-17 09:07:54 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | in my case, the expensive operations turn into a non-strict data type that is passed as an argument in the partial application, if that changes anything. So i assume that if a field is needed multiple times it will still get calculated only once? |
| 2024-06-17 09:07:55 +0200 | <probie> | danse-nr3: If you write it naively, the thunk you're talking about won't exist until your function has all its arguments, so it can't possibly be shared. You need something like Axman6's suggestion to make it work |
| 2024-06-17 09:08:48 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | thanks probie, having a thunk so that it can be reused, sounds like a simple criteria that can easily be learned |
| 2024-06-17 09:08:55 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 09:09:20 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | so since as i said there is a passed argument, i guess my thunks already exist |
| 2024-06-17 09:09:54 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2024-06-17 09:10:23 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) |
| 2024-06-17 09:10:56 +0200 | kuribas | (~user@ptr-17d51eokk4x6v7fmbmr.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-06-17 09:11:01 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | this seems tricky territory anyways. Besides probie's useful criteria, learning resources are welcome |
| 2024-06-17 09:11:23 +0200 | <probie> | If we have `f a b c = let thing = a + b in thing + c` and `g = f 3 4`, we've made a thunk for `g`, which if reduced to whnf would be `\c -> let thing = 3 + 4 in thing + c`. However, there is no thunk for `thing` yet |
| 2024-06-17 09:11:43 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) |
| 2024-06-17 09:12:02 +0200 | <Leary> | danse-nr3: It's mostly a matter of understanding GHC's evaluation strategy and the optimisations it's free to make. For the former you can read up on STG, I guess, but I don't really have a good source for the latter. There are some good SPJ talks and lexi-lambda videos on GHC optimisations, and the -f flags in the User's Guide are a decent reference. |
| 2024-06-17 09:13:23 +0200 | <probie> | If we have `f a b = let thing = a + b in \c -> thing + c` and `g = f 3 4`, we've made a thunk for `g`, which if reduced to whnf would be `\c -> thing + c` where `thing` is a thunk containing `3 + 4` |
| 2024-06-17 09:13:47 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | thanks Leary... arguably there is a collapse of semantics there, or maybe evaluation is not part of denotational semantics |
| 2024-06-17 09:14:16 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | thanks probie, seems to confirm your criteria is a valid one, and easy to internalize |
| 2024-06-17 09:14:36 +0200 | <Leary> | This is one area where Haskell's beauty is kinda working against us---purity and referential transparency give rise to endless meaning-preserving transformations that the compiler is free to use in optimisation. |
| 2024-06-17 09:15:13 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | so i gather referential transparency is part of denotational semantics while evaluation strategy is not? |
| 2024-06-17 09:16:10 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 09:17:59 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) |
| 2024-06-17 09:23:16 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:3ca7:5236:8f09:cdd0) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 09:36:16 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 09:37:56 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 09:43:47 +0200 | dcoutts_ | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 09:46:53 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@175.136.155.137) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-06-17 09:47:37 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 09:48:53 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 09:53:03 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 09:53:33 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-194-173.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-17 10:02:01 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@node-1w7jr9yjxg4b9uiwhc1g848x6.ipv6.telus.net) |
| 2024-06-17 10:08:31 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@175.136.155.137) |
| 2024-06-17 10:19:39 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 10:21:17 +0200 | dcoutts_ | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-17 10:22:43 +0200 | oo_miguel | (~Thunderbi@78-11-181-16.static.ip.netia.com.pl) |
| 2024-06-17 10:24:57 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) |
| 2024-06-17 10:26:08 +0200 | gehmehgeh | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) |
| 2024-06-17 10:26:47 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 2024-06-17 10:26:53 +0200 | dcoutts_ | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 10:27:11 +0200 | gehmehgeh | gmg |
| 2024-06-17 10:31:58 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-194-173.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 10:32:16 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 10:38:46 +0200 | cfricke | (~cfricke@user/cfricke) |
| 2024-06-17 10:39:22 +0200 | chele | (~chele@user/chele) |
| 2024-06-17 10:44:37 +0200 | lortabac | (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) |
| 2024-06-17 10:46:49 +0200 | target_i | (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) |
| 2024-06-17 10:49:37 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 10:50:53 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) |
| 2024-06-17 10:52:51 +0200 | dcoutts_ | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-17 10:55:40 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) |
| 2024-06-17 11:04:27 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 11:15:02 +0200 | econo_ | (uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-06-17 11:22:27 +0200 | philopsos1 | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 11:24:15 +0200 | ft | (~ft@p3e9bcb39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-06-17 11:27:46 +0200 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
| 2024-06-17 11:28:11 +0200 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) |
| 2024-06-17 11:30:51 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.37.209.49) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 11:31:01 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.37.148.51) |
| 2024-06-17 11:46:41 +0200 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-17 11:54:05 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:10f2:43ac:8000::) |
| 2024-06-17 11:58:58 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.37.148.51) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 11:59:31 +0200 | Angelz | (Angelz@Angelz.oddprotocol.org) (Quit: IRCNow and Forever!) |
| 2024-06-17 11:59:59 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:10f2:43ac:8000::) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 12:00:18 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:10f2:43ac:8000::) |
| 2024-06-17 12:02:02 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:a539:7039:59e2:58af) |
| 2024-06-17 12:03:47 +0200 | Angelz | (Angelz@angelz.oddprotocol.org) |
| 2024-06-17 12:04:25 +0200 | Angelz | (Angelz@angelz.oddprotocol.org) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-17 12:07:00 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:10f2:43ac:8000::) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 12:07:52 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:10f0:9887:8000::) |
| 2024-06-17 12:18:19 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:10f0:9887:8000::) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 12:18:48 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:10f7:bde6:8000::) |
| 2024-06-17 12:22:06 +0200 | lortabac | (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 12:33:06 +0200 | cpressey | (~weechat@33b62f0c.skybroadband.com) |
| 2024-06-17 12:34:17 +0200 | cfricke | (~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 12:38:41 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@174-21-146-130.tukw.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 12:52:50 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@185.219.141.162) |
| 2024-06-17 12:53:01 +0200 | lortabac | (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) |
| 2024-06-17 12:53:08 +0200 | stef204 | (~stef204@user/stef204) |
| 2024-06-17 12:54:46 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:2b1:4300:e6b9:7aff:fe80:3d03) |
| 2024-06-17 12:55:45 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.2) |
| 2024-06-17 13:03:57 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 2024-06-17 13:04:16 +0200 | cfricke | (~cfricke@user/cfricke) |
| 2024-06-17 13:10:00 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 13:10:32 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) |
| 2024-06-17 13:12:50 +0200 | stef204 | (~stef204@user/stef204) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.1) |
| 2024-06-17 13:13:02 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.37.146.18) |
| 2024-06-17 13:14:15 +0200 | <cheater> | hello |
| 2024-06-17 13:14:45 +0200 | <cheater> | i set nmap <Leader>t :Go<Space> but when i'm in normal mode and type , then i just get a bell |
| 2024-06-17 13:15:02 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | cheater: what's your <leader>? |
| 2024-06-17 13:15:08 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | it's \ by defaeult |
| 2024-06-17 13:15:11 +0200 | <cheater> | i haven't set it |
| 2024-06-17 13:15:12 +0200 | <cheater> | oh hm |
| 2024-06-17 13:15:15 +0200 | <cheater> | i thought it was , |
| 2024-06-17 13:15:19 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that's <LocalLeader> iirc |
| 2024-06-17 13:15:27 +0200 | <cheater> | ahh thanks |
| 2024-06-17 13:16:34 +0200 | <cheater> | oh i was going to ask in #vim |
| 2024-06-17 13:16:39 +0200 | <cheater> | damn you, irc |
| 2024-06-17 13:16:55 +0200 | <cheater> | tomsmeding: what do you use for hls in vim? |
| 2024-06-17 13:17:07 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I use neovim, with its built-in LSP support |
| 2024-06-17 13:17:14 +0200 | <cheater> | ok |
| 2024-06-17 13:17:18 +0200 | <cheater> | ty |
| 2024-06-17 13:17:21 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I hear that coc is easier to use |
| 2024-06-17 13:17:26 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | but it works for me and less external deps |
| 2024-06-17 13:19:27 +0200 | <cheater> | there's some new thing that's not coc and doesn't require nodejs, it's fully in vim9script |
| 2024-06-17 13:19:34 +0200 | <cheater> | https://github.com/yegappan/lsp |
| 2024-06-17 13:19:41 +0200 | <cheater> | this guy's some vim core dev apparently |
| 2024-06-17 13:19:44 +0200 | <cheater> | i haven't tried it yet. |
| 2024-06-17 13:36:53 +0200 | cpressey | (~weechat@33b62f0c.skybroadband.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 13:43:05 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-17 13:47:28 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-17 13:54:17 +0200 | dmj` | (uid72307@id-72307.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-06-17 13:56:24 +0200 | falafel | (~falafel@2a0c:5a87:3103:ec01::62b8) |
| 2024-06-17 14:00:27 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-17 14:08:35 +0200 | Angelz | (Angelz@Angelz.oddprotocol.org) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:16 +0200 | aniketd | (32aa4844cd@2a03:6000:1812:100::dcb) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:16 +0200 | duncan | (c6181279e3@user/meow/duncan) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:16 +0200 | ursa-major | (114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:16 +0200 | jakzale | (6291399afa@user/jakzale) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | henrytill | (e0180937c3@2a03:6000:1812:100::e8c) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | fvr | (ef3e56ca8b@2a03:6000:1812:100::3c4) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | jleightcap | (7bc4014b62@user/jleightcap) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | whereiseveryone | (206ba86c98@2a03:6000:1812:100::2e4) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | jmcantrell | (644f1bed9a@user/jmcantrell) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | cpli | (77fc530071@2a03:6000:1812:100::252) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | sm2n | (ae95cb1267@user/sm2n) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | eso | (a0662dfd5e@2a03:6000:1812:100::1266) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | evanrelf | (3addc196af@2a03:6000:1812:100::f0) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | ggb | (a62ffbaf4f@2a03:6000:1812:100::3ac) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | JoelMcCracken | (5ea8252fbb@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e3) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | fn_lumi | (3d621153a5@2a03:6000:1812:100::df7) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | fluffyballoon | (45ce440a48@2a03:6000:1812:100::e2) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | brettgilio | (a35ba67324@2a03:6000:1812:100::260) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | probie | (cc0b34050a@user/probie) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | jkoshy | (99b9359beb@user/jkoshy) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | fgaz_ | (1ff9197ed6@2a03:6000:1812:100::11ea) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | chaitlatte0 | (ea29c0bb16@user/chaitlatte0) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | samhh | (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | b0o | (0e4a0bf4c9@2a03:6000:1812:100::1bf) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | bsima1 | (9d7e39c8ad@2a03:6000:1812:100::dd) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | lane | (809450f172@2a03:6000:1812:100::1300) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | kuruczgy | (55b66dd3ae@2a03:6000:1812:100::127f) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | akspecs | (00cc8321af@sourcehut/user/akspecs) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:17 +0200 | titibandit | (e33ffbab65@user/titibandit) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | rselim | (ce261f06ff@user/milesrout) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | shreyasminocha | (51fdc93eda@user/shreyasminocha) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | lukec | (9dfd4d094e@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | arcadewise | (52968ed80d@2a03:6000:1812:100::3df) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | filwisher | (2e6936c793@2a03:6000:1812:100::170) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | alethkit | (23bd17ddc6@sourcehut/user/alethkit) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | ymherklotz | (cb2c9cfbdd@2a03:6000:1812:100::29a) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | sus | (1b7af6299f@user/zeromomentum) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | pmk | (6afe4476a1@2a03:6000:1812:100::26d) (Write error: Broken pipe) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | samhh_ | (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | Ankhers | (e99e97ef8e@2a03:6000:1812:100::2a2) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:19 +0200 | raghavgururajan | (ea769b8000@user/raghavgururajan) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:49 +0200 | bsima1 | (9d7e39c8ad@2a03:6000:1812:100::dd) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:49 +0200 | filwisher | (2e6936c793@2a03:6000:1812:100::170) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:50 +0200 | lukec | (9dfd4d094e@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:50 +0200 | ggb | (a62ffbaf4f@2a03:6000:1812:100::3ac) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:50 +0200 | lane | (809450f172@2a03:6000:1812:100::1300) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:50 +0200 | fgaz_ | (1ff9197ed6@2a03:6000:1812:100::11ea) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:51 +0200 | whereiseveryone | (206ba86c98@2a03:6000:1812:100::2e4) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:51 +0200 | raghavgururajan | (ea769b8000@user/raghavgururajan) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:51 +0200 | pmk | (6afe4476a1@2a03:6000:1812:100::26d) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:52 +0200 | sus | (1b7af6299f@user/zeromomentum) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:52 +0200 | jmcantrell | (644f1bed9a@user/jmcantrell) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:52 +0200 | shreyasminocha | (51fdc93eda@user/shreyasminocha) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:53 +0200 | jleightcap | (7bc4014b62@user/jleightcap) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:54 +0200 | fn_lumi | (3d621153a5@2a03:6000:1812:100::df7) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:55 +0200 | arcadewise | (52968ed80d@2a03:6000:1812:100::3df) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:55 +0200 | chaitlatte0 | (ea29c0bb16@2a03:6000:1812:100::1124) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:57 +0200 | chaitlatte0 | (ea29c0bb16@2a03:6000:1812:100::1124) (Changing host) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:57 +0200 | chaitlatte0 | (ea29c0bb16@user/chaitlatte0) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:57 +0200 | jkoshy | (99b9359beb@user/jkoshy) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:58 +0200 | probie | (cc0b34050a@user/probie) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:58 +0200 | ymherklotz | (0b33419828@2a03:6000:1812:100::29a) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:58 +0200 | henrytill | (e0180937c3@2a03:6000:1812:100::e8c) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:58 +0200 | evanrelf | (3addc196af@2a03:6000:1812:100::f0) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:59 +0200 | aniketd | (32aa4844cd@2a03:6000:1812:100::dcb) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:59 +0200 | akspecs | (00cc8321af@2a03:6000:1812:100::11a) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:59 +0200 | duncan | (c6181279e3@user/meow/duncan) |
| 2024-06-17 14:13:59 +0200 | rselim | (ce261f06ff@user/milesrout) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:00 +0200 | cpli | (77fc530071@2a03:6000:1812:100::252) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:00 +0200 | samhh | (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:00 +0200 | Ankhers | (e99e97ef8e@2a03:6000:1812:100::2a2) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:00 +0200 | akspecs | (00cc8321af@2a03:6000:1812:100::11a) (Changing host) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:00 +0200 | akspecs | (00cc8321af@sourcehut/user/akspecs) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:00 +0200 | jakzale | (6291399afa@user/jakzale) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:01 +0200 | b0o | (0e4a0bf4c9@2a03:6000:1812:100::1bf) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:01 +0200 | sm2n | (ae95cb1267@user/sm2n) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:01 +0200 | kuruczgy | (55b66dd3ae@2a03:6000:1812:100::127f) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:02 +0200 | ursa-major | (114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:02 +0200 | brettgilio | (a35ba67324@2a03:6000:1812:100::260) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:04 +0200 | titibandit | (e33ffbab65@user/titibandit) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:04 +0200 | alethkit | (23bd17ddc6@sourcehut/user/alethkit) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:04 +0200 | fluffyballoon | (45ce440a48@2a03:6000:1812:100::e2) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:04 +0200 | eso | (a0662dfd5e@2a03:6000:1812:100::1266) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:04 +0200 | JoelMcCracken | (5ea8252fbb@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e3) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:09 +0200 | fvr | (ef3e56ca8b@2a03:6000:1812:100::3c4) |
| 2024-06-17 14:14:55 +0200 | samhh_ | (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) |
| 2024-06-17 14:15:15 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 14:20:49 +0200 | ian_ | (~ian@matrix.chaos.earth.li) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 14:32:09 +0200 | cpressey | (~weechat@33b62f0c.skybroadband.com) |
| 2024-06-17 14:38:56 +0200 | markasoftware | (~quassel@107.161.26.124) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) |
| 2024-06-17 14:40:12 +0200 | markasoftware | (~quassel@107.161.26.124) |
| 2024-06-17 14:42:47 +0200 | zzz | (~yin@user/zero) |
| 2024-06-17 14:49:19 +0200 | cpressey | (~weechat@33b62f0c.skybroadband.com) (Quit: WeeChat 4.3.0) |
| 2024-06-17 14:52:56 +0200 | Igloo | (~ian@matrix.chaos.earth.li) |
| 2024-06-17 14:54:51 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@175.136.155.137) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-06-17 14:55:42 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2024-06-17 14:56:07 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) |
| 2024-06-17 15:01:08 +0200 | nkatte | (~nkatte@191.177.174.42) |
| 2024-06-17 15:02:10 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 15:02:48 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-17 15:04:17 +0200 | zzz | (~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 15:11:49 +0200 | dumptruckman | (~dumptruck@69-164-220-160.ip.linodeusercontent.com) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-06-17 15:14:49 +0200 | dumptruckman | (~dumptruck@69-164-210-35.ip.linodeusercontent.com) |
| 2024-06-17 15:21:09 +0200 | causal | (~eric@50.35.88.207) (Quit: WeeChat 4.3.1) |
| 2024-06-17 15:24:27 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:10f7:bde6:8000::) (Quit: Quit) |
| 2024-06-17 15:27:34 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.37.146.18) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 15:28:37 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.35.187.238) |
| 2024-06-17 15:30:05 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2024-06-17 15:30:33 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) |
| 2024-06-17 15:35:41 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 15:35:53 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 15:41:03 +0200 | k_hachig_ | (~k_hachig@bras-base-mtrlpq42zf4-grc-08-65-94-221-127.dsl.bell.ca) |
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| 2024-06-17 17:35:59 +0200 | <monochrom> | danse-nr3: Denotational semantics focuses on whether there is a value and what the value is. It leaves open how (evaluation strategy) to get it, and therefore how much it costs. |
| 2024-06-17 17:36:23 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 17:40:23 +0200 | <hadronized> | I read about about a language called Ante, and that got me curious to circle back to the state of Haskell and especially linear types; has the community adopted them already? :) |
| 2024-06-17 17:41:15 +0200 | <monochrom> | (There is a nuiance there. That is true to date. Sometimes some researchers try to include cost in denotational semantics, but it is still preliminary and not very successful. It is possible that the nature of denotational semantics makes it difficult.) |
| 2024-06-17 17:41:59 +0200 | <monochrom> | GHC has linear types now. |
| 2024-06-17 17:42:18 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't follow linear types, I don't know what else. |
| 2024-06-17 17:43:26 +0200 | <EvanR> | I recently pretended I had linear types in C |
| 2024-06-17 17:44:03 +0200 | <EvanR> | input structures to each API call would be formally consumed, and I'm required to "use" the result |
| 2024-06-17 17:44:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | reduced the memory management in the end |
| 2024-06-17 17:44:51 +0200 | Midjak | (~MarciZ@82.66.147.146) |
| 2024-06-17 17:45:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | still not as slick as bog standard haskell with gc |
| 2024-06-17 17:45:21 +0200 | <monochrom> | Is that like C++'s RAII? |
| 2024-06-17 17:45:33 +0200 | <monochrom> | Or maybe it's more like Rust. |
| 2024-06-17 17:45:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | rust tracks ownership and allows borrowing of ownership |
| 2024-06-17 17:46:14 +0200 | <EvanR> | I pretended all my data was immutable and got regenerated by each operation |
| 2024-06-17 17:46:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | but it secretly was not |
| 2024-06-17 17:46:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | OK, like compiling Linear Haskell to C. :) |
| 2024-06-17 17:47:08 +0200 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) |
| 2024-06-17 17:48:11 +0200 | <EvanR> | yeah, though does linear haskell "optimize" anything wrt to gc? |
| 2024-06-17 17:48:21 +0200 | <EvanR> | or is it mainly a type system thing |
| 2024-06-17 17:49:10 +0200 | <monochrom> | Although I have not been following, I believe it is just a type thing. |
| 2024-06-17 17:49:52 +0200 | <EvanR> | because I logically consumed the inputs I could reuse the storage for the return value in lieu of actually freeing it |
| 2024-06-17 17:50:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | though actually freeing was sometimes unavoidable |
| 2024-06-17 17:50:57 +0200 | <hadronized> | Rust is affine, not linear |
| 2024-06-17 17:51:14 +0200 | <hadronized> | I think the GC can be hugely optimized with linear typing yeah |
| 2024-06-17 17:51:17 +0200 | <hadronized> | I was wondering about it |
| 2024-06-17 17:51:55 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-17 17:52:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | it's possible that GC is more efficient, by some metric, in some situations, than memory management linear or not |
| 2024-06-17 17:52:38 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.35.187.238) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 17:52:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | calling into malloc and free each time has cost |
| 2024-06-17 17:53:37 +0200 | <EvanR> | but not allocating in the first place is more efficient than both |
| 2024-06-17 17:53:54 +0200 | <monochrom> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/linear-types#does-this-proposal-improve-performance "No." :) |
| 2024-06-17 17:54:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | success avoided again! |
| 2024-06-17 17:55:11 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 17:55:15 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 17:55:27 +0200 | <iqubic> | Linear types are cool! |
| 2024-06-17 17:56:53 +0200 | Guest70 | (~Guest70@2400:1a00:bd11:e2fe:d5e9:fd2c:a983:6dbe) |
| 2024-06-17 17:59:42 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-067-162.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-17 18:00:10 +0200 | <monochrom> | Not enough people are working on it, so they can only do one thing at a time. |
| 2024-06-17 18:00:23 +0200 | <monochrom> | Ugh is that, like, a meta-pun? :) |
| 2024-06-17 18:02:08 +0200 | <hadronized> | hehe |
| 2024-06-17 18:02:23 +0200 | <hadronized> | it’s been a very long time I haven’t done Haskell (I even changed my nickname since then) |
| 2024-06-17 18:02:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | the audience laughter was consumed |
| 2024-06-17 18:02:35 +0200 | <hadronized> | sometimes I feel like I would love to go back to 100% Haskell, even for spare-time projects |
| 2024-06-17 18:03:31 +0200 | <monochrom> | Don't feel bad about being less than 100% Haskell. I write shell scripts all the time, too. |
| 2024-06-17 18:03:48 +0200 | <hadronized> | ah I mean, I’m mostly doing Rust these days |
| 2024-06-17 18:04:08 +0200 | <hadronized> | and I moved most of my old Haskell projects to Rust |
| 2024-06-17 18:04:14 +0200 | <EvanR> | a good ability to unlock is to quickly hook up not-haskell code to haskell. C is particularly straightforward |
| 2024-06-17 18:04:41 +0200 | <hadronized> | the only problem I have with Haskell is that it’s not really suited for low-level code, even though I would love it to |
| 2024-06-17 18:04:56 +0200 | <EvanR> | that's where a supporting C file comes in xD |
| 2024-06-17 18:05:09 +0200 | <hadronized> | I’m not sure I follow :) |
| 2024-06-17 18:05:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | haskell's FFI makes calling into C pretty easy |
| 2024-06-17 18:05:34 +0200 | <monochrom> | For low-level code, Rust has the right fragment of FP. |
| 2024-06-17 18:05:38 +0200 | <hadronized> | the funny thing to me is that, for instance in video games, people use low-level languages (C, C++, Rust, etc.) and eventually create GC and memory pool |
| 2024-06-17 18:05:43 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 18:05:54 +0200 | <hadronized> | monochrom: yeah, hence why I keep using Rust instead of Haskell |
| 2024-06-17 18:05:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | you can also have the haskell code called from C |
| 2024-06-17 18:06:06 +0200 | beowuff | (~beowuff@50.125.248.222) |
| 2024-06-17 18:06:14 +0200 | <hadronized> | lately I thought about parallel computations and realized Rust is probably not that good at doing that |
| 2024-06-17 18:06:20 +0200 | <hadronized> | (and I’m not talking async IO; just parallel code) |
| 2024-06-17 18:06:36 +0200 | <hadronized> | not having that backed by the compiler makes it either hard or ugly to do) |
| 2024-06-17 18:06:39 +0200 | <hadronized> | -) |
| 2024-06-17 18:06:45 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh it gets better. People who swear by select()/epoll() eventually create their own OS! |
| 2024-06-17 18:06:54 +0200 | <hadronized> | :P |
| 2024-06-17 18:07:03 +0200 | TactfulCitrus | (~al@2a02:8012:87a6:0:fbe0:6116:6e30:e047) |
| 2024-06-17 18:07:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | you can't write your own OS until you write your own programming language |
| 2024-06-17 18:07:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | and your own text editor to write it in |
| 2024-06-17 18:07:34 +0200 | <hadronized> | I thought about the text editor but not the OS |
| 2024-06-17 18:07:47 +0200 | <hadronized> | but eventually, you should make your own hardware, FP compatible |
| 2024-06-17 18:07:50 +0200 | xal | (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) () |
| 2024-06-17 18:07:51 +0200 | <hadronized> | then no more issues with memory etc. |
| 2024-06-17 18:07:58 +0200 | <hadronized> | then 1enjoy |
| 2024-06-17 18:08:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | but first you need silicon, but first you need hydrogen, first you need big bang nucleosynthesis |
| 2024-06-17 18:08:27 +0200 | xal | (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) |
| 2024-06-17 18:08:39 +0200 | hadronized | smiles |
| 2024-06-17 18:09:45 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@node-1w7jr9yjxg4b9uiwhc1g848x6.ipv6.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 18:09:49 +0200 | beowuff | (~beowuff@50.125.248.222) () |
| 2024-06-17 18:09:54 +0200 | k_hachig_ | (~k_hachig@bras-base-mtrlpq42zf4-grc-08-65-94-221-127.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 18:10:19 +0200 | <hadronized> | EvanR: the avoid success at all costs is funny but in the end, I don’t like it, because I would like the industry to really adopt Haskell (or a similar language) so that I can do it all the time |
| 2024-06-17 18:10:27 +0200 | <hadronized> | Rust is nice, but Rust is also annoying for some other things |
| 2024-06-17 18:10:43 +0200 | <hadronized> | for instance, I do think that some decisions were made in a weird way |
| 2024-06-17 18:10:44 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that slogan.... |
| 2024-06-17 18:10:51 +0200 | <hadronized> | (the last one on my mind being async/await) |
| 2024-06-17 18:11:17 +0200 | <hadronized> | I wrote kak-tree-sitter and I had to come up with some async IO; I didn’t use tokio because it doesn’t work very well with non-blocking FIFO |
| 2024-06-17 18:11:39 +0200 | <hadronized> | so I used mio, and thus discovered the wonderful land of async IO, state machines etc. |
| 2024-06-17 18:12:07 +0200 | <hadronized> | and thus understand a bit more why we have async/await as a specific implementation of a more general concept (generators / monads) |
| 2024-06-17 18:12:20 +0200 | <hadronized> | but still, I don’t like how an async function reads; left, right, left, right, left :D |
| 2024-06-17 18:12:43 +0200 | <hadronized> | async fn foo() -> Result<i32, _> is basically fn foo() -> impl Future<Output = Result<i32, _>> |
| 2024-06-17 18:12:45 +0200 | <hadronized> | meh… |
| 2024-06-17 18:13:00 +0200 | <hadronized> | anyway, yeah, I wish Haskell was more successful |
| 2024-06-17 18:13:05 +0200 | <monochrom> | That slogan should be taken as just a joke. |
| 2024-06-17 18:13:08 +0200 | Guest70 | (~Guest70@2400:1a00:bd11:e2fe:d5e9:fd2c:a983:6dbe) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2024-06-17 18:13:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> we have wasted a lot of time explaining this over the years :) |
| 2024-06-17 18:13:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> time we had a FAQ |
| 2024-06-17 18:13:37 +0200 | <monochrom> | OTOH don't hold your breath about industry either. Well, "industry". |
| 2024-06-17 18:13:39 +0200 | <hadronized> | monochrom: it’s a joke, but it’s also not really a joke |
| 2024-06-17 18:13:46 +0200 | <hadronized> | monochrom: what do you mean? |
| 2024-06-17 18:14:27 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12056169 |
| 2024-06-17 18:15:04 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> avoid making "success at any cost" the only priority |
| 2024-06-17 18:15:08 +0200 | <monochrom> | People have called me elitist for this, but I say that the programming industry is not up to par to the level of professionalsim like other professions like engineering, medicine, law, ... |
| 2024-06-17 18:15:30 +0200 | <hadronized> | monochrom: oh I agree |
| 2024-06-17 18:15:43 +0200 | <hadronized> | and some people even make fools of themselves regarding that |
| 2024-06-17 18:15:50 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * don't fall into the trap of prioritising "success" above all else |
| 2024-06-17 18:15:54 +0200 | <hadronized> | people calling themselves engineers while they lack most of the method / tooling, etc. |
| 2024-06-17 18:16:06 +0200 | <monochrom> | Here is one small glimpse. Other professions are like "does it actually work? do you have data? is it cost effective?" Programmers are like "is it intuitive?". |
| 2024-06-17 18:16:12 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-17 18:16:21 +0200 | <hadronized> | a couple years ago, I was hired for a company in a team where I did Haskell 100% of the time, and it was probably the best codebase I worked in |
| 2024-06-17 18:16:28 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * "mass success" above all else. ["don't sell out", I guess] |
| 2024-06-17 18:16:32 +0200 | <hadronized> | I have never found anything close to it (and the company closed the project) |
| 2024-06-17 18:16:56 +0200 | <hadronized> | monochrom: yeah, and in the scientific field, intuition is really a bad thing to play around I think |
| 2024-06-17 18:17:10 +0200 | <hadronized> | I hate some slogans going like if it works, don’t touch it |
| 2024-06-17 18:17:18 +0200 | <hadronized> | it just shows how bad most of us are at engineering |
| 2024-06-17 18:18:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | hadronized, don't wait for industry, get a haskell job |
| 2024-06-17 18:18:17 +0200 | <EvanR> | or create one |
| 2024-06-17 18:18:28 +0200 | <EvanR> | be the industry |
| 2024-06-17 18:19:00 +0200 | <hadronized> | I tried Zig and had a discussion with the author, and pointed out issues with the design of the language (basically, it’s super easy — intuitive — to return a reference to a stack frame that was just deallocated) |
| 2024-06-17 18:19:01 +0200 | dmj` | (uid72307@id-72307.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2024-06-17 18:19:14 +0200 | <hadronized> | and the author just replied that fixing that would make the language too complex |
| 2024-06-17 18:19:17 +0200 | <EvanR> | zig is :( |
| 2024-06-17 18:19:19 +0200 | <hadronized> | and I then stopped learning it |
| 2024-06-17 18:19:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | it addresses things that are not problems and creates its own problems |
| 2024-06-17 18:19:39 +0200 | <hadronized> | it sounds weird that languages created nowadays ignore the problems of languages made in the 80s |
| 2024-06-17 18:19:44 +0200 | <hadronized> | EvanR: exactly |
| 2024-06-17 18:20:04 +0200 | <hadronized> | it addresses Rust’s unsafety by making it a bit safer, while completely removing all the safe parts of Rust |
| 2024-06-17 18:20:06 +0200 | <hadronized> | which is… just weird |
| 2024-06-17 18:20:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> chris done had a good cautionary post on rust here: https://chrisdone.com/posts/rust |
| 2024-06-17 18:20:34 +0200 | <hadronized> | EvanR | hadronized, don't wait for industry, get a haskell job |
| 2024-06-17 18:20:41 +0200 | <hadronized> | I sometimes think about it — since I had one in the past |
| 2024-06-17 18:20:51 +0200 | <monochrom> | Luca Cardelli told Bertrand Meyer about the nuisance of covariant, contravariant, invariant. Meyer did nothing. |
| 2024-06-17 18:20:55 +0200 | <hadronized> | the problem is that it’s a pretty niche industry, and I don’t want to enclose myself in a position that would close more doors to me |
| 2024-06-17 18:21:08 +0200 | <hadronized> | who’s Luca? |
| 2024-06-17 18:21:11 +0200 | k_hachig_ | (~k_hachig@bras-base-mtrlpq42zf4-grc-08-65-94-221-127.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 2024-06-17 18:21:13 +0200 | <monochrom> | (Thank God the Scala people took it seriously.) |
| 2024-06-17 18:22:01 +0200 | <monochrom> | He's about the only person who actually makes OO rigorous. http://lucacardelli.name/Topics/TheoryOfObjects/ObjectSubject.html |
| 2024-06-17 18:22:02 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-067-162.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 18:22:23 +0200 | <monochrom> | Probably also the first one to raise the covariant etc issues. |
| 2024-06-17 18:22:30 +0200 | <EvanR> | is a circle a subclass of trisquirclehedron or the other way around? |
| 2024-06-17 18:22:31 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 18:22:38 +0200 | <dolio> | That 'clarification' is post-hoc, though. There is meaning in the other reading, too. |
| 2024-06-17 18:22:53 +0200 | <dolio> | There are many things that cannot be fixed about Haskell because it is too widely used at this point. |
| 2024-06-17 18:23:33 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 18:25:05 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) |
| 2024-06-17 18:26:16 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 18:26:25 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-067-162.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-17 18:26:34 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 2024-06-17 18:26:46 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-067-162.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 18:27:04 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-17 18:30:52 +0200 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-17 18:30:52 +0200 | <hadronized> | also, what is the state around Haskell support for RAII? |
| 2024-06-17 18:30:57 +0200 | <hadronized> | is it still resourcet? :) |
| 2024-06-17 18:33:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | bracket pattern? |
| 2024-06-17 18:34:26 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 18:35:01 +0200 | <EvanR> | acquire resource, thing to do with resource, release resource, thing to do in case of error |
| 2024-06-17 18:35:56 +0200 | <EvanR> | scratch the last one |
| 2024-06-17 18:35:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Bracket_pattern |
| 2024-06-17 18:38:26 +0200 | <hadronized> | ah yeah bracket, I remember that one too |
| 2024-06-17 18:38:28 +0200 | <hadronized> | thanks |
| 2024-06-17 18:38:55 +0200 | <dolio> | What is meant by RAII? |
| 2024-06-17 18:39:08 +0200 | <hadronized> | basically, Drop |
| 2024-06-17 18:39:10 +0200 | <dolio> | If you open a socket in GHC, it gets closed when it's garbage collected, I think. |
| 2024-06-17 18:39:34 +0200 | <dolio> | So is that RAII? |
| 2024-06-17 18:39:48 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 18:40:01 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-067-162.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-17 18:41:47 +0200 | falafel | (~falafel@2a0c:5a87:3103:ec01::62b8) |
| 2024-06-17 18:42:10 +0200 | <dmj`> | hadronized: if you're using pointers in C, you can wrap them in a ForeignPtr. This will let you install a finalizer when the object is ready to be GC'd. Beware finalizers are only run in GHC during GC, so your GC settings might affect finalization. |
| 2024-06-17 18:42:41 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-17 18:48:17 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-067-162.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-17 18:48:52 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.22.252.56) |
| 2024-06-17 18:48:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | if RAII unintuitively includes *deallocating or releasing resources* at the closing bracket of the block, that's bracket. Finalizer probably happens much later. Even then, I wonder why this is filed under RAII xD hence dolio's question |
| 2024-06-17 18:49:26 +0200 | <dolio> | I never understand what people mean when they talk about RAII. |
| 2024-06-17 18:51:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | "resource aquisition tied to object lifetime" ok that covers both situations I mentioned. Now if only someone made that the acronym |
| 2024-06-17 18:58:09 +0200 | falafel | (~falafel@2a0c:5a87:3103:ec01::62b8) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-17 18:58:35 +0200 | cfricke | (~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2) |
| 2024-06-17 19:01:44 +0200 | dcoutts_ | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-17 19:04:55 +0200 | <mauke> | RAII only makes sense in a language with prompt cleanup |
| 2024-06-17 19:05:19 +0200 | <monochrom> | RAII is a poorly chosen name because of that. It should say more about release and exiting a lexical scope. |
| 2024-06-17 19:05:22 +0200 | <mauke> | it has to be deterministic |
| 2024-06-17 19:05:32 +0200 | <dolio> | Is it about the lexical scoping? |
| 2024-06-17 19:05:40 +0200 | <mauke> | it's about C++ |
| 2024-06-17 19:06:03 +0200 | <monochrom> | But anyway in Haskell we use bracket. Advanced people use some of those region/session libraries. Very advanced people just switch to another language that has session types. :) |
| 2024-06-17 19:06:06 +0200 | <dolio> | Or do people also mean that the resource gets cleaned up whenever you free it? |
| 2024-06-17 19:06:09 +0200 | <mauke> | you can't customize lexical scopes, but you can do the next best thing: declare a local variable of a custom type, which can do custom things in its destructor |
| 2024-06-17 19:07:25 +0200 | <mauke> | I think the lexical thing came first, and then people used it for dynamic things, too |
| 2024-06-17 19:07:54 +0200 | <mauke> | originally it was just about managing resources safely in the presence of arbitrary exceptions, I'm pretty sure |
| 2024-06-17 19:07:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | RAII says: Don't "p = new Foo()", have "x = Foo()" instead. Because upon lexical scope exit (especially upon exception), no one is ensuring "delete p", but the language itself ensures calling x.~Foo(). |
| 2024-06-17 19:08:20 +0200 | <dolio> | Okay. |
| 2024-06-17 19:08:25 +0200 | <dolio> | So the name is garbage. |
| 2024-06-17 19:08:30 +0200 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 2024-06-17 19:08:39 +0200 | <mauke> | it makes sense as a C++ design pattern |
| 2024-06-17 19:08:42 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yes that's what I was trying to calling out when talking to C++ fans. |
| 2024-06-17 19:08:45 +0200 | <geekosaur> | and highly specific to how C++ works without saying so |
| 2024-06-17 19:08:46 +0200 | <mauke> | like the "rule of 3" or whatever |
| 2024-06-17 19:09:00 +0200 | <dolio> | From Planescape? |
| 2024-06-17 19:09:03 +0200 | <monochrom> | Of course, Stockholm Syndrome implies that they must rationalize the wrong name. |
| 2024-06-17 19:09:18 +0200 | <mauke> | which I think became the rule of 5 and then the rule of 0? |
| 2024-06-17 19:09:37 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (another side effect is people try to apply it to languages which don't have C++'s semantics) |
| 2024-06-17 19:09:41 +0200 | dcoutts_ | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-17 19:09:48 +0200 | <mauke> | hey, it works pretty well in perl |
| 2024-06-17 19:10:22 +0200 | <mauke> | but in perl you're not limited to statically defined classes, so you can just have a single custom type that wraps a lambda |
| 2024-06-17 19:11:20 +0200 | <mauke> | { my $dummy = end { do_arbitrary_cleanup_here(); }; ... } |
| 2024-06-17 19:11:33 +0200 | <mauke> | where 'end' is a "smart constructor" |
| 2024-06-17 19:12:28 +0200 | <monochrom> | Likewise, I say that the name of "bus factor" is bad, too. It's literally an insider joke. |
| 2024-06-17 19:12:48 +0200 | <monochrom> | And do anyone of you want to guess what "test pollution" means? |
| 2024-06-17 19:12:48 +0200 | <dolio> | Yeah. |
| 2024-06-17 19:13:01 +0200 | <mauke> | (full implementation available at https://metacpan.org/dist/End/source/lib/End.pm ) |
| 2024-06-17 19:13:23 +0200 | <monochrom> | Programmers are not the paragon of making meaningful names actually descriptive. |
| 2024-06-17 19:15:55 +0200 | itaipu | (~itaipu@168.121.99.8) |
| 2024-06-17 19:16:22 +0200 | Unicorn_Princess | (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) |
| 2024-06-17 19:17:10 +0200 | <mauke> | is anyone familiar enough with Koka to tell if it supports RAII-like things? |
| 2024-06-17 19:17:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | IIRC yes. |
| 2024-06-17 19:17:53 +0200 | heropass | (~dfs@syn-072-183-132-110.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-17 19:19:46 +0200 | <monochrom> | Because I think of "return operation" as where you can put your finalizer. But maybe again the RAII model doesn't fit Koka. |
| 2024-06-17 19:20:59 +0200 | <monochrom> | Err no, don't use return operation. Koka has initinally and finally. Use that. https://koka-lang.github.io/koka/doc/book.html#sec-resource |
| 2024-06-17 19:22:58 +0200 | <monochrom> | I am really tempted to ditch Haskell and switch to Koka. :) |
| 2024-06-17 19:23:06 +0200 | <Rembane> | monochrom: Do it! And tell us all about it! |
| 2024-06-17 19:23:15 +0200 | <monochrom> | But upon "eager evaluation" I decided to stay with Haskell. >:) |
| 2024-06-17 19:23:53 +0200 | <monochrom> | But if you want a real effect system, Koka or Eff or any of the algebraic effect language is your future. |
| 2024-06-17 19:27:14 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@175.136.155.137) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-06-17 19:34:17 +0200 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 2024-06-17 19:35:41 +0200 | dcoutts_ | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-17 19:48:02 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2024-06-17 19:48:28 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-06-17 19:48:59 +0200 | <hadronized> | monochrom: first time I hear about koka |
| 2024-06-17 19:49:03 +0200 | <hadronized> | that sounds interesting |
| 2024-06-17 19:52:19 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.22.252.56) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 2024-06-17 20:08:30 +0200 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
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