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| 2024-06-08 08:11:48 +0000 | TonyStone | (~TonyStone@user/TonyStone) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-08 08:13:27 +0000 | <haskellbridge> | <linj> Hi, I am new to Haskell. What is the newest GHC feature to solve a record-related problem once and for all mentioned here? https://youtu.be/rf-lie7U04Q?list=PLOJjn67NeYg9cWA4hyIWcxfaeX64pwo1c&t=2139 |
| 2024-06-08 08:13:39 +0000 | robobub | (uid248673@id-248673.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-06-08 08:16:27 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | presumably he's referring to https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/overloaded_record_dot.html#extensio… , but I'm not sure if that "solves a big problem" |
| 2024-06-08 08:16:40 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | it's an alternative syntax that makes some code a bit nicer to read |
| 2024-06-08 08:17:51 +0000 | <haskellbridge> | <linj> thanks |
| 2024-06-08 08:48:12 +0000 | target_i | (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) |
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| 2024-06-08 09:31:30 +0000 | dcoutts | (~duncan@2001:620:130:6092:8b6f:ee09:26cb:f12f) |
| 2024-06-08 09:33:48 +0000 | <Franciman> | hi, I am encountering a very strange behaviour. This is my code: https://bpa.st/FUZQ |
| 2024-06-08 09:34:06 +0000 | <Franciman> | i used runhaskell to execute it and it takes 7 seconds, so i had to resort to compilation, and it takes 0.6s to execute |
| 2024-06-08 09:34:30 +0000 | <Franciman> | on my fully lazy interpreter, it takes 0.14s to execute the same term |
| 2024-06-08 09:34:37 +0000 | <Franciman> | why is haskell's optimization so lame? |
| 2024-06-08 09:35:42 +0000 | <Franciman> | outperforming ghc by 500x? |
| 2024-06-08 09:35:44 +0000 | <Franciman> | what's wrong |
| 2024-06-08 09:36:51 +0000 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 2024-06-08 09:38:43 +0000 | dsrt^ | (~cd@c-98-242-74-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 2024-06-08 09:39:12 +0000 | <int-e> | GHC doesn't do CSE |
| 2024-06-08 09:39:25 +0000 | <int-e> | (not entirely true, but true enough to explain this case) |
| 2024-06-08 09:39:31 +0000 | dcoutts | (~duncan@2001:620:130:6092:8b6f:ee09:26cb:f12f) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-08 09:39:40 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | link 404s for me? |
| 2024-06-08 09:40:08 +0000 | <int-e> | yeah it does 404 now for me too... guess I caught it just in time |
| 2024-06-08 09:40:23 +0000 | <Franciman> | my interpreter neither |
| 2024-06-08 09:40:25 +0000 | <int-e> | "This paste expires on 2024-06-15 09:33:40.961704." |
| 2024-06-08 09:40:29 +0000 | <Franciman> | oh sorry it expired |
| 2024-06-08 09:40:31 +0000 | <Franciman> | wait |
| 2024-06-08 09:40:52 +0000 | <Franciman> | https://bpa.st/VTCQ |
| 2024-06-08 09:41:19 +0000 | <int-e> | gamma x y = let z = x id in (z `seq` z) y |
| 2024-06-08 09:41:32 +0000 | <Franciman> | lewl |
| 2024-06-08 09:41:39 +0000 | <Franciman> | why doesn't haskell implement full laziness? |
| 2024-06-08 09:41:42 +0000 | <int-e> | if you do that instead it'll be fast. |
| 2024-06-08 09:42:03 +0000 | <int-e> | because it interferes with controlling memory usage |
| 2024-06-08 09:42:15 +0000 | <int-e> | z `seq` z is just z of course; GHC will actually realize that |
| 2024-06-08 09:43:11 +0000 | <Franciman> | int-e: doesn't laziness also interfer with controlling memory usage? |
| 2024-06-08 09:43:24 +0000 | <int-e> | yes? |
| 2024-06-08 09:44:04 +0000 | <int-e> | you can always introduce your own sharing if you need it for performance |
| 2024-06-08 09:44:19 +0000 | <int-e> | it's hard to get the compiler to avoid sharing and it would be harder if it did this kind of CSE |
| 2024-06-08 09:44:49 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | classic example is something like `length [1..100000] + length [1..100000]` |
| 2024-06-08 09:45:00 +0000 | <int-e> | pragmatically... full laziness makes too many programs slower |
| 2024-06-08 09:45:02 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | that's pretty fast and low-memory, but if you CSE the two lists it gets horrendous |
| 2024-06-08 09:45:33 +0000 | <int-e> | (or run out of memory) |
| 2024-06-08 09:45:49 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | (perhaps you need to add 3 more zeros for it to get really bad) |
| 2024-06-08 09:46:34 +0000 | <Franciman> | int-e: isn't that the same with lazienss compared to call by value? |
| 2024-06-08 09:47:20 +0000 | <int-e> | Franciman: also your math is off, 7/0.14 is 50 |
| 2024-06-08 09:48:03 +0000 | <int-e> | Franciman: "We already have this problem, so let's make it as bad as we possibly can" isn't pragmatic. |
| 2024-06-08 09:50:08 +0000 | <int-e> | Laziness and sharing aren't exactly the same thing either. We have `seq` to reduce laziness when it's harmful. We have `let` to introduce sharing when it's helpful. There's "opportunistic CSE" in GHC that also introduces sharing which exists because it's helpful most of the time. It's not always a win and people actually struggle to avoid sharing when that happens. |
| 2024-06-08 09:51:22 +0000 | <Franciman> | indeed... |
| 2024-06-08 09:51:24 +0000 | <Franciman> | oh yes 50x |
| 2024-06-08 09:51:27 +0000 | <Franciman> | sorry |
| 2024-06-08 09:51:55 +0000 | <Franciman> | having controlled laziness is better |
| 2024-06-08 09:52:02 +0000 | <Franciman> | call by value wins |
| 2024-06-08 09:52:04 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | what do you mean with "full laziness"? Do you mean something like the "optimal" graph reduction algorithms? |
| 2024-06-08 09:52:09 +0000 | <int-e> | And I guess, ultimately, GHC is not primarily optimized for doing fast beta reductions. It's actually more important to have fast pattern matching on data. |
| 2024-06-08 09:52:46 +0000 | <Franciman> | tomsmeding: it's extracting subexpressions of a lambda that don't depend on the argument |
| 2024-06-08 09:52:57 +0000 | <Franciman> | so that if you evalaute that lambda too many times, the shared parts are evaluated only once |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:12 +0000 | <Franciman> | err, if you apply that lambda many times* |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:14 +0000 | phma | (phma@2001:5b0:2172:c168:223e:807a:618e:7153) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:17 +0000 | tomsmeding | thought that was what ghc did with -ffull-laziness, which is default, right? |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:26 +0000 | <Franciman> | it does not do it at its fullest |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:32 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:38 +0000 | <Franciman> | it's partial full laziness |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:42 +0000 | phma | (~phma@host-67-44-208-65.hnremote.net) |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:47 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | maybe it only does it if the subexpression in question is already let-bound or something |
| 2024-06-08 09:53:58 +0000 | <int-e> | "Default: off but enabled by -O" |
| 2024-06-08 09:54:12 +0000 | <Franciman> | i applied it, but still no improvement |
| 2024-06-08 09:54:20 +0000 | <int-e> | yeah it only does it for let bindings |
| 2024-06-08 09:54:20 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | (and -O is default when compiling with cabal :p) |
| 2024-06-08 09:54:23 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 2024-06-08 09:54:40 +0000 | <int-e> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using-optimisation.html#ghc-flag--ffull-… has a note. |
| 2024-06-08 09:54:49 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | makes sense -- "let" tells ghc that you want to share this thing, and then if you want to do it anyway, let's share it completely |
| 2024-06-08 09:55:03 +0000 | falafel | (~falafel@185-147-214-70.mad.as54203.net) |
| 2024-06-08 09:56:12 +0000 | <Franciman> | now if i run ghc -O to compile it, finally i get something close to my 0.14s lol |
| 2024-06-08 09:56:15 +0000 | <Franciman> | IN SHAMBLES |
| 2024-06-08 09:56:25 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | "now", is that with the let? |
| 2024-06-08 09:56:26 +0000 | <Leary> | Well, it's probably not that simple. GHC's simplifier /creates/ a lot more `let`s than you write. Just, most of them are heuristically just to be better off inlined than shared. |
| 2024-06-08 09:56:36 +0000 | <Franciman> | this program is so unlikely to happen in practice btw |
| 2024-06-08 09:56:42 +0000 | <Leary> | judged* |
| 2024-06-08 09:56:53 +0000 | <Franciman> | a fun thing is that it also behaves badly with call by value |
| 2024-06-08 09:57:00 +0000 | falafel_ | (~falafel@2a0c:5a87:3103:ec01::62b8) |
| 2024-06-08 09:57:20 +0000 | <Franciman> | tomsmeding: i think ghc is smart enough to figure that let out |
| 2024-06-08 09:57:26 +0000 | <Franciman> | because it's a CSE case |
| 2024-06-08 09:58:04 +0000 | <Franciman> | if i changed the arguments then maybe it would struggle more |
| 2024-06-08 09:58:39 +0000 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) |
| 2024-06-08 09:59:12 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | this is a question of "how smart is your optimiser", though; it's not very much related to CBV vs non-strictness |
| 2024-06-08 09:59:24 +0000 | <Franciman> | that's why full laziness is nice |
| 2024-06-08 09:59:29 +0000 | <Franciman> | it's not about smartness |
| 2024-06-08 09:59:35 +0000 | <Franciman> | of the optimiser |
| 2024-06-08 09:59:50 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | hm? |
| 2024-06-08 09:59:59 +0000 | falafel | (~falafel@185-147-214-70.mad.as54203.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-08 09:59:59 +0000 | <Franciman> | a dumb ~100 lines interpreter beating >20 years of optimisations |
| 2024-06-08 10:00:05 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | do you mean the floating-out of expressions that don't depend on arguments? |
| 2024-06-08 10:00:09 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | that is an optimisation |
| 2024-06-08 10:00:20 +0000 | <Franciman> | so is laziness wrt call by name |
| 2024-06-08 10:00:26 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | or a fancy graph-reducing evaluation model |
| 2024-06-08 10:00:37 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | laziness is evaluation semantics |
| 2024-06-08 10:00:48 +0000 | <Franciman> | where is the line sorry? |
| 2024-06-08 10:00:51 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | if you use a graph reducer as your evaluation, then you can also get something like your full laziness |
| 2024-06-08 10:01:07 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | but if you don't, then you need some explicit transformation to lift out the independent expression |
| 2024-06-08 10:01:46 +0000 | <Franciman> | laziness also requires some sort of that |
| 2024-06-08 10:01:51 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | does it? |
| 2024-06-08 10:01:52 +0000 | <Franciman> | you don't really act on lambda terms per se |
| 2024-06-08 10:02:01 +0000 | <Franciman> | yes, otherwise how do you define the evaluation semantics? |
| 2024-06-08 10:02:14 +0000 | <Franciman> | you can express laziness with explicit substitutions or using graphs |
| 2024-06-08 10:02:18 +0000 | <Franciman> | or using lambda lifting |
| 2024-06-08 10:02:23 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | or using a heap and beta reduction |
| 2024-06-08 10:02:30 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | which is the "standard" formulation |
| 2024-06-08 10:02:38 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | er |
| 2024-06-08 10:02:43 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | a heap and WHNF evaluation |
| 2024-06-08 10:03:00 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | nothing in that does CSE for you |
| 2024-06-08 10:03:26 +0000 | <Franciman> | you can use a heap and whnf evaluation + extraction of maximally free subexpressions from a term |
| 2024-06-08 10:03:30 +0000 | <Franciman> | what's the difference? |
| 2024-06-08 10:03:32 +0000 | falafel_ | (~falafel@2a0c:5a87:3103:ec01::62b8) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-08 10:03:51 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | it's true that the distinction between "evaluation semantics" and "optimisation" is a bit vague; you could apply some optimisations on-the-fly while evaluating, and then you'd blur the boundaries |
| 2024-06-08 10:03:56 +0000 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) |
| 2024-06-08 10:04:20 +0000 | <Franciman> | tomsmeding: just to make it clear, i wanted to understand your point, not trying to argue you are wrong |
| 2024-06-08 10:04:31 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | yeah no you're right |
| 2024-06-08 10:04:38 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | I was making a distinction that does not _really_ exist |
| 2024-06-08 10:04:40 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | only conventionally |
| 2024-06-08 10:05:22 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | though I _can_ say that you don't need extraction of independent subexpressions from within binding scopes to achieve laziness |
| 2024-06-08 10:05:34 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | unless you make that part of the definition of "laziness", which is unconventional |
| 2024-06-08 10:05:45 +0000 | <Franciman> | true |
| 2024-06-08 10:05:52 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | ghc achieves laziness in the traditional sense, not in this extended sense |
| 2024-06-08 10:05:59 +0000 | <Franciman> | because you actually extract common variables |
| 2024-06-08 10:06:16 +0000 | <Franciman> | i mean you do sharing on variables inside a lambda |
| 2024-06-08 10:06:25 +0000 | <Franciman> | the the variable occurrences bound by a lambda, to be more precise |
| 2024-06-08 10:06:37 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | yes, but that's sharing directly implied by the syntax |
| 2024-06-08 10:06:42 +0000 | <Franciman> | true |
| 2024-06-08 10:06:48 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | a single name has a single shared value on the heap |
| 2024-06-08 10:06:57 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | and that's all sharing that the evaluator introduces |
| 2024-06-08 10:07:32 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | this yields a straightforward evaluator that's quite efficient |
| 2024-06-08 10:07:51 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | if you want to do more, you typically have to sacrifice efficiency of individual reductions to achieve better asymptotics for some programs |
| 2024-06-08 10:07:54 +0000 | <Franciman> | and there is a fun theory to prove that it is complete and sound w.r.t call by name |
| 2024-06-08 10:08:08 +0000 | <Franciman> | using non-idempotent set types |
| 2024-06-08 10:08:12 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | graph reduction evaluators buy in on this idea quite deeply, and can still be fast but that takes significant cleverness |
| 2024-06-08 10:08:18 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | ghc is more traditional |
| 2024-06-08 10:08:53 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | also, ghc's model allows you to do stuff like use unsafePerformIO and not break the world in doing so |
| 2024-06-08 10:09:06 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | good luck with doing that sensibly in an evaluator with full laziness everywhere |
| 2024-06-08 10:09:17 +0000 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) |
| 2024-06-08 10:09:32 +0000 | <Franciman> | that would be a great problem |
| 2024-06-08 10:09:34 +0000 | <Franciman> | lol |
| 2024-06-08 10:10:07 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | and having unsafePerformIO allows your haskell code to be fast on bytestrings, which people have apparently found more important than better asymptotics for certain functional patterns that you can also just fix by being a bit more explicit with the sharing that you want |
| 2024-06-08 10:10:58 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | there's a place for full laziness evaluators, but ghc optimises less for those usecases |
| 2024-06-08 10:11:32 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | heck, people have said that the GHC has a suspiciously good concurrent, asynchronous IO manager in its RTS for a pure functional language |
| 2024-06-08 10:13:15 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | Maia Victor has done a bunch of work on graph reduction engines in Formality (apparently now Kind + HVM or something) |
| 2024-06-08 10:13:41 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | they've written some blog posts etc on it if you're interested in that space |
| 2024-06-08 10:13:45 +0000 | <Franciman> | thanks |
| 2024-06-08 10:29:35 +0000 | falafel | (~falafel@2a0c:5a87:3103:ec01::62b8) |
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| 2024-06-08 10:36:48 +0000 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
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| 2024-06-08 11:21:22 +0000 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-08 11:27:22 +0000 | rvalue- | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) |
| 2024-06-08 11:27:25 +0000 | TactfulCitrus | (~al@2a02:8012:87a6:0:fbe0:6116:6e30:e047) |
| 2024-06-08 11:28:31 +0000 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-08 11:31:20 +0000 | rvalue- | rvalue |
| 2024-06-08 11:32:01 +0000 | <lxsameer> | hey folks let's say we have a record with a field like `X :: IO (Y a)`, how can i hide that a entirely since it doesn't matter for the rest of my code ? |
| 2024-06-08 11:32:39 +0000 | <lxsameer> | would i make sense to have a record of functions that use X exposed to user rather than exposing X? |
| 2024-06-08 11:32:41 +0000 | <Franciman> | you mean make it unaccessible? |
| 2024-06-08 11:33:13 +0000 | <Franciman> | maybe you can use the existential quantifier on X? |
| 2024-06-08 11:33:20 +0000 | <lxsameer> | Franciman: no, I mean hide the implementation, let me give you a more concrete example |
| 2024-06-08 11:33:21 +0000 | <Franciman> | so you give it a type that you can't readily use from outside the record |
| 2024-06-08 11:33:43 +0000 | <Franciman> | i mean something like: data Recordo = forall a. { X :: a, ... } |
| 2024-06-08 11:34:00 +0000 | <lxsameer> | X :: IO (Pool a) a can be a connection type of different databases (sqlit, postgres....) |
| 2024-06-08 11:34:29 +0000 | <Franciman> | sorry |
| 2024-06-08 11:34:37 +0000 | <Franciman> | data Recordo = forall a. Recordo { X :: a, ... } |
| 2024-06-08 11:34:41 +0000 | <Franciman> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Existential_type |
| 2024-06-08 11:35:10 +0000 | <lxsameer> | thanks let me read it |
| 2024-06-08 11:35:39 +0000 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) |
| 2024-06-08 11:38:27 +0000 | <lxsameer> | Franciman: thanks, I was looking for this |
| 2024-06-08 11:40:02 +0000 | <Franciman> | maybe GADTs can be helpful too |
| 2024-06-08 11:40:13 +0000 | <lxsameer> | cheers, I'll have a look |
| 2024-06-08 11:54:41 +0000 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.203) |
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| 2024-06-08 21:53:52 +0000 | Guest9152 | (~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Killed (lead.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))) |
| 2024-06-08 21:53:52 +0000 | Feuermagier_ | Feuermagier |
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| 2024-06-08 22:30:31 +0000 | <hololeap> | this is one of those vague questions that I seem to get in trouble for here, but does anyone have any ideas in regards to this kind of boilerplate for writing Monoid instances and how to automate it somehow: https://bpa.st/YD4A |
| 2024-06-08 22:32:00 +0000 | <hololeap> | or a deeper understanding. I see a lot of that same pattern but I haven't quite figured out what I'm seeing |
| 2024-06-08 22:32:39 +0000 | <hololeap> | (and yes I wrote that) |
| 2024-06-08 22:32:59 +0000 | <geekosaur> | it's just the definitions of semigroup and monoid |
| 2024-06-08 22:34:06 +0000 | <hololeap> | right, but there's often times a constructor that will "dominate", for instance: HelpMode <> _ = HelpMode; _ <> HelpMode = HelpMode |
| 2024-06-08 22:34:07 +0000 | <geekosaur> | semigroup captures the notion of "combining values", monoid captures the notion of "identity value when combining" |
| 2024-06-08 22:34:27 +0000 | <geekosaur> | yes, but that depends on the type |
| 2024-06-08 22:34:36 +0000 | <haskellbridge> | <Heffalump (@hsenag:matrix.org)> I think you'd probably spend more effort defining a clever specification language for that than you would save in writing the boilerplate |
| 2024-06-08 22:34:42 +0000 | <haskellbridge> | <Heffalump (@hsenag:matrix.org)> unless you have a _lot_ of it |
| 2024-06-08 22:34:51 +0000 | <geekosaur> | sometimes you get that, sometimes you don't (neither lists nor numbers work that way, for example) |
| 2024-06-08 22:35:00 +0000 | <hololeap> | ok, maybe I'm the only one who has recognized this pattern |
| 2024-06-08 22:35:58 +0000 | <hololeap> | It's usually something like: X <> _ = X; _ <> X = X; Y x1 <> Y x2 = ... |
| 2024-06-08 22:37:12 +0000 | <haskellbridge> | <Heffalump (@hsenag:matrix.org)> I think what you have done is defined a semilattice or similar |
| 2024-06-08 22:37:52 +0000 | <hololeap> | Heffalump: I think you're right. I watched a talk on that a while back and I kind of get it |
| 2024-06-08 22:39:17 +0000 | <EvanR> | haskell monoid instance IS the nice specification language xD |
| 2024-06-08 22:39:36 +0000 | <hololeap> | because here if someone specifies --help, that should override anything else on the command line |
| 2024-06-08 22:40:02 +0000 | <haskellbridge> | <Heffalump (@hsenag:matrix.org)> EvanR: I don't think it's that simple, hololeap's one has some extra structure |
| 2024-06-08 22:40:41 +0000 | <hololeap> | so if HelpMode shows up even once in the list from getOpt, it needs to be what remains after running mconcat on the list |
| 2024-06-08 22:40:47 +0000 | <hololeap> | does that make sense? |
| 2024-06-08 22:41:15 +0000 | <EvanR> | X <> _ = X; _ <> X = X; Y x1 <> Y x2 = f x1 x2 where ... |
| 2024-06-08 22:42:05 +0000 | <EvanR> | but shoehorning the behavior of the parsed command line arguments into a monoid instance seems kind like shoehorning |
| 2024-06-08 22:42:19 +0000 | <EvanR> | parsing them in the first place is another story |
| 2024-06-08 22:42:46 +0000 | <hololeap> | EvanR: do you want to see the full code? using mconcat worked pretty well |
| 2024-06-08 22:43:19 +0000 | <EvanR> | I can imagine the config monoid reacting to --help by simply setting the flag in the record saying --help was provided |
| 2024-06-08 22:43:30 +0000 | <EvanR> | and letting something else deal with the business logic |
| 2024-06-08 22:43:44 +0000 | <hololeap> | it's just a one file .hs project |
| 2024-06-08 22:44:24 +0000 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc900cd3e2d9c55a017d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-08 22:44:48 +0000 | <hololeap> | https://github.com/gentoo-haskell/gentoo-haskell/blob/74e70146bf3a60f06966e7239075523568baaced/scr… |
| 2024-06-08 22:45:17 +0000 | <hololeap> | mconcat is at line 203 |
| 2024-06-08 22:46:13 +0000 | <EvanR> | not saying it won't work but it just seems like a non obvious way to go about it |
| 2024-06-08 22:46:51 +0000 | <hololeap> | what would be a more obvious way to do this? |
| 2024-06-08 22:47:11 +0000 | <hololeap> | I tend to think of things in terms of monoids :p |
| 2024-06-08 22:47:13 +0000 | <EvanR> | do what, implement --help, --verbose, and whatever else? |
| 2024-06-08 22:47:55 +0000 | <EvanR> | you're lucky you want to do something which can be construed as a valid monoid xD |
| 2024-06-08 22:48:16 +0000 | <EvanR> | (semigroup) |
| 2024-06-08 22:48:29 +0000 | <hololeap> | getOpt returns a list of valid options on the command line. if there's even a single --help in there, it needs to show the help menu. otherwise it needs to know if --verbose was passed, even once |
| 2024-06-08 22:48:50 +0000 | <EvanR> | and you happen to not care what else was passed if --help appears anywhere, just a fluke |
| 2024-06-08 22:49:04 +0000 | <monochrom> | hololeap: I wonder if you accept "code up the isomorphism with Maybe Verbose, then you can just use Maybe's monoidness" |
| 2024-06-08 22:49:14 +0000 | <EvanR> | e.g. some programs might want --help <topic> to work |
| 2024-06-08 22:49:27 +0000 | <EvanR> | or --help <topic> --color xD |
| 2024-06-08 22:49:43 +0000 | <hololeap> | monochrom: yeah here I could, since it's either help menu or normal mode + verbose option |
| 2024-06-08 22:50:08 +0000 | <hololeap> | yeah this is a really simple utility |
| 2024-06-08 22:50:24 +0000 | <geekosaur> | fwiw I agree this feels like "abuse of Monoid/Semigroup" |
| 2024-06-08 22:50:24 +0000 | <monochrom> | And then if you're reckless, isomorphism = unsafeCoerce haha |
| 2024-06-08 22:50:50 +0000 | <hololeap> | how would unsafeCoerce work on sum types |
| 2024-06-08 22:51:00 +0000 | <geekosaur> | intended to say that earlier but I had to run down and meat the grubhub driver 🙂 |
| 2024-06-08 22:51:31 +0000 | <EvanR> | I'm here to call out waste fraud and abuse when you're not here |
| 2024-06-08 22:52:29 +0000 | <hololeap> | geekosaur: I really thought this was *appropriate* use of monoid/semigroup |
| 2024-06-08 22:52:33 +0000 | <EvanR> | hololeap, in my reimagining, I implement this short circuiting behavior with an if statement, if --help was provided, do this, otherwise do that xD |
| 2024-06-08 22:52:48 +0000 | <hololeap> | like, it passes all the monoid/semigroup laws |
| 2024-06-08 22:53:12 +0000 | <EvanR> | you could also use a monad where all return types are () |
| 2024-06-08 22:53:15 +0000 | <EvanR> | but why |
| 2024-06-08 22:53:42 +0000 | <hololeap> | well, fair, but that's a step further |
| 2024-06-08 22:53:50 +0000 | <EvanR> | it would pass all laws! |
| 2024-06-08 22:53:57 +0000 | <hololeap> | I'm just not sure what the step backward would be |
| 2024-06-08 22:53:57 +0000 | <EvanR> | (but not make any damn sense) |
| 2024-06-08 22:54:13 +0000 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-08 22:54:19 +0000 | <EvanR> | like I said, you want it to do X if --help was provided, Y otherwise |
| 2024-06-08 22:54:37 +0000 | <EvanR> | there's way less code that does that |
| 2024-06-08 22:54:47 +0000 | <hololeap> | so basically write what I have but don't call it monoid/semigroup :p |
| 2024-06-08 22:55:01 +0000 | <geekosaur> | hololeap, informally (that is, without recourse to laws) I would expect a mon oid to preserve information. your HelpMode loses it |
| 2024-06-08 22:55:26 +0000 | <EvanR> | a type use for monoid here is to combine the provided configuration options into a coherence final config record |
| 2024-06-08 22:55:29 +0000 | <EvanR> | typical* |
| 2024-06-08 22:55:37 +0000 | <EvanR> | coherent* |
| 2024-06-08 22:55:38 +0000 | <geekosaur> | the semantics should be "combine", not "replace" |
| 2024-06-08 22:56:06 +0000 | <hololeap> | have you not seen Data.Semigroup.{First,Last} |
| 2024-06-08 22:56:18 +0000 | <EvanR> | the semilattice idea does result in losing information |
| 2024-06-08 22:56:49 +0000 | <EvanR> | it obeys laws |
| 2024-06-08 22:56:56 +0000 | <EvanR> | you're up there in the evolution of the haskell programmer xD |
| 2024-06-08 22:56:57 +0000 | <ncf> | i completely disagree that this is an "abuse of Monoid", or "shoehorning", fwiw |
| 2024-06-08 22:57:29 +0000 | <ncf> | command-line arguments form a monoid under concatenation, so it's only natural to interpret them into a monoid |
| 2024-06-08 22:57:41 +0000 | <EvanR> | that's not what the instance does or is used like |
| 2024-06-08 22:59:14 +0000 | <ncf> | ? |
| 2024-06-08 22:59:27 +0000 | <EvanR> | it doesn't concatenate as such |
| 2024-06-08 22:59:51 +0000 | <EvanR> | --help deletes the other options |
| 2024-06-08 23:00:40 +0000 | <ncf> | ..yes, you interpret them into a *different* monoid |
| 2024-06-08 23:00:41 +0000 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-08 23:00:42 +0000 | <EvanR> | it's acting like the infinity for a max monoid |
| 2024-06-08 23:00:59 +0000 | <EvanR> | it works just a weird way to go about it |
| 2024-06-08 23:01:27 +0000 | <ncf> | the CLI is a list (i.e. free monoid) of arguments, so you use the universal property to interpret them into the monoid you actually want |
| 2024-06-08 23:01:32 +0000 | <ncf> | it's not weird at all, it's very principled |
| 2024-06-08 23:01:35 +0000 | <EvanR> | you sure can |
| 2024-06-08 23:01:44 +0000 | <EvanR> | it doesn't help achieve the goal really |
| 2024-06-08 23:02:02 +0000 | <EvanR> | just my perspective from a "can I explain this code to a normal person" angle xD |
| 2024-06-08 23:03:02 +0000 | <hololeap> | I would hope haskell devs at least understand monoids. I appreciate your perspective EvanR |
| 2024-06-08 23:03:05 +0000 | <mauke> | > (1 > 2) `max` any even [3, 5, 2] |
| 2024-06-08 23:03:07 +0000 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 2024-06-08 23:03:32 +0000 | <hololeap> | and I came here for differing opinions so lay them on |
| 2024-06-08 23:04:14 +0000 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-08 23:04:39 +0000 | <EvanR> | i.e. "what's this code doing" is it "interpreting the universal monoid into one which is something like a semi lattice" vs "shows help if they do --help" xD |
| 2024-06-08 23:05:25 +0000 | <EvanR> | code looks like the first but could look like the second |
| 2024-06-08 23:06:58 +0000 | causal | (~eric@50.35.88.207) |
| 2024-06-08 23:10:03 +0000 | <hololeap> | hm good point |
| 2024-06-08 23:11:27 +0000 | <hololeap> | especially since the monoid/semigroup instance only used once it could be more readable as a custom function |
| 2024-06-08 23:14:15 +0000 | <hololeap> | thanks. these kind of insights are hard to come by when you're coding by yourself |
| 2024-06-08 23:21:16 +0000 | shailangsa | (~shailangs@host86-186-127-241.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) |
| 2024-06-08 23:31:37 +0000 | hiredman | (~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-06-08 23:34:21 +0000 | tremon | (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in) |
| 2024-06-08 23:40:29 +0000 | target_i | (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-06-08 23:43:35 +0000 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-06-08 23:48:43 +0000 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-08 23:52:53 +0000 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-08 23:56:42 +0000 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-08 23:57:35 +0000 | <monochrom> | I am against explaining to "normal" people. |
| 2024-06-08 23:58:47 +0000 | <EvanR> | what an elitist!!! |
| 2024-06-08 23:59:02 +0000 | <monochrom> | s/elit/profession/ |
| 2024-06-08 23:59:08 +0000 | <EvanR> | retreat to the ivory tower! |
| 2024-06-08 23:59:40 +0000 | <monochrom> | Every profession will have a lot of things unexplanable to outsiders. This is simply the inevitable consequence of specialization. |
| 2024-06-08 23:59:54 +0000 | <monochrom> | The alternative is to keep programming unprofessional. |