2024/04/03

2024-04-03 00:01:03 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.134.54)
2024-04-03 00:03:07 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.134.54) (Client Quit)
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2024-04-03 00:07:31 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-03 00:08:12 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.89.27)
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2024-04-03 00:08:37 +0200kaskal(~kaskal@089144252117.atnat0061.highway.webapn.at)
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2024-04-03 00:21:38 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
2024-04-03 00:23:19 +0200 <lyxia> what's the option for GHC to print implicit arguments when printing types?
2024-04-03 00:24:06 +0200kaskal(~kaskal@2001:4bb8:2d2:1257:60b1:1057:17df:5755)
2024-04-03 00:24:28 +0200 <geekosaur> -fprint-explicit-foralls ?
2024-04-03 00:25:10 +0200 <geekosaur> I think they bodged it in there, at least
2024-04-03 00:26:59 +0200 <lyxia> found it, -fprint-explicit-kinds
2024-04-03 00:27:45 +0200ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-03 00:28:02 +0200 <geekosaur> oh
2024-04-03 00:29:46 +0200 <geekosaur> (the ghci run at https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.8.1/docs/users_guide/exts/type_applications.html#inferred-vs-s… seems to think -fprint-explicit-foralls is enough)
2024-04-03 00:32:23 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
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2024-04-03 00:32:47 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@modemcable123.17-177-173.mc.videotron.ca)
2024-04-03 00:35:02 +0200mewjaycjay
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2024-04-03 00:35:47 +0200travgm(~travgm@fsf/member/travgm) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-03 00:37:08 +0200 <lyxia> ah, I meant implicit argument of applied type families. Like if I want to see the Nat in Proxy 0.
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2024-04-03 04:02:30 +0200raghavgururajan(ea769b8000@user/raghavgururajan)
2024-04-03 04:03:37 +0200ftweedal(~ftweedal@1.146.122.93)
2024-04-03 04:03:39 +0200shreyasminocha(51fdc93eda@user/shreyasminocha)
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2024-04-03 04:07:04 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue)
2024-04-03 04:07:24 +0200 <ftweedal> Hello! Who has admin access on the mail.haskell.org mailman instance?
2024-04-03 04:09:14 +0200 <geekosaur> ask in #haskell-infrastructure I think
2024-04-03 04:09:29 +0200 <ftweedal> Thank you, will do.
2024-04-03 04:14:17 +0200dsrt^(~cd@c-98-242-74-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2024-04-03 04:29:20 +0200Axman6wonders if ftweedal is a strange way to spell frase
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2024-04-03 04:50:09 +0200ftweedal(~ftweedal@pa49-197-232-192.pa.qld.optusnet.com.au)
2024-04-03 04:54:22 +0200meritamen(~meritamen@user/meritamen)
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2024-04-03 04:58:12 +0200ftweedal(~ftweedal@pa49-197-232-192.pa.qld.optusnet.com.au) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2024-04-03 05:00:05 +0200ftweedal(~ftweedal@211.30.183.173)
2024-04-03 05:01:18 +0200td_(~td@i53870927.versanet.de)
2024-04-03 05:05:42 +0200 <ftweedal> Axman6: it me. I'm connected from not my usual workstation.
2024-04-03 05:06:55 +0200 <Axman6> My OSINT skills never cease to amaze even myself
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2024-04-03 09:27:52 +0200Inst_Inst
2024-04-03 09:28:02 +0200 <Inst> Yup, I'm a pathetic sadsack
2024-04-03 09:28:23 +0200 <Inst> now trying to talk NickSeagull of NotHaskell fame into seeing whether or not he'd be interested in working on a Haskell-based front-end framework
2024-04-03 09:30:58 +0200 <Inst> Oh, Nick looks like he back-burnered NH
2024-04-03 09:31:25 +0200 <Inst> Hopefully he'll be positive on a front-end project, and we'll be able to post on Discourse with "Updates from the Lunatic Fringe"
2024-04-03 09:31:36 +0200 <Inst> :D
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2024-04-03 15:54:19 +0200manwithluck(manwithluc@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/manwithluck) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-03 15:55:32 +0200manwithluck(manwithluc@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/manwithluck)
2024-04-03 15:56:27 +0200 <shapr> @quote
2024-04-03 15:56:27 +0200 <lambdabot> neelk says: So constructively we know this style can be used to meet hard performance deadlines in domains where the penalty for failure is literally radioactive flaming death.
2024-04-03 16:02:06 +0200meritamen(~meritamen@user/meritamen) ()
2024-04-03 16:04:03 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@37.165.248.71)
2024-04-03 16:04:12 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-03 16:04:16 +0200 <danse-nr3> just be careful with partial functions
2024-04-03 16:08:29 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2024-04-03 16:10:35 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be)
2024-04-03 16:10:46 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-04-03 16:15:33 +0200berekolo(~berekolo@112.78.178.130)
2024-04-03 16:16:16 +0200 <kuribas> What's the second best language (after haskell)?
2024-04-03 16:16:26 +0200 <janus> english
2024-04-03 16:16:36 +0200 <janus> because the report is written in it
2024-04-03 16:22:00 +0200 <mauke> perl
2024-04-03 16:23:37 +0200 <ski> @quote mangler
2024-04-03 16:23:37 +0200 <lambdabot> Pseudonym says: All hail the Evil Mangler!
2024-04-03 16:23:43 +0200 <shapr> kuribas: rust in one direction, agda in another direction?
2024-04-03 16:23:55 +0200 <shapr> kuribas: I'd say it depends on your constraints and direction
2024-04-03 16:24:05 +0200 <EvanR> gotta stay up to date on programming languages. Checking wikipedia's list sorted by decade. 2020s. C++20 (???), Microsoft Power Fx, Carbon, Mojo (???), Fortran 2023 (???), gleam
2024-04-03 16:24:16 +0200 <EvanR> the future looks bright
2024-04-03 16:24:58 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2024-04-03 16:25:16 +0200 <int-e> they killed the evil mangler :-(
2024-04-03 16:28:40 +0200 <kuribas> shapr: idris rather than agda, unless you just want proofs?
2024-04-03 16:30:38 +0200 <int-e> @quote joy
2024-04-03 16:30:38 +0200 <lambdabot> MyCatVerbs says: ?src i_enjoy_being_insulted_please_bitch_at_me_lambdabot_pretty_pretty_please
2024-04-03 16:31:03 +0200Guest35(~textual@188.177.17.196)
2024-04-03 16:31:10 +0200 <kuribas> I wonder if fortran is really so bad. Would you rather spend time gaming clever python dataframe solutions, rather than writing a stupid loop that can be optimized by the compiler?
2024-04-03 16:32:55 +0200 <EvanR> I heard agda can also produce runnable programs
2024-04-03 16:33:54 +0200 <int-e> the dark side of the Curry-Howard isomorphism
2024-04-03 16:34:18 +0200fererrorocher(fererroroc@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/fererrorocher) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.1)
2024-04-03 16:38:04 +0200 <mauke> I hear fortran can do recursive functions now
2024-04-03 16:39:07 +0200 <int-e> and dynamic allocation
2024-04-03 16:39:33 +0200 <int-e> it's witchcraft
2024-04-03 16:42:20 +0200 <shapr> fortran is good for nested data parallelism
2024-04-03 16:45:40 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@151.57.164.10) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-03 16:47:28 +0200 <kuribas> mauke: lol
2024-04-03 16:48:27 +0200 <kuribas> idris is cool, but nearly unusable for anything practical, due to a total lack of libraries.
2024-04-03 16:51:30 +0200 <Inst> i was told once upon a time we don't have type lambdas, right?
2024-04-03 16:52:48 +0200 <Inst> if I wanted to implement the type-level equivalent of flip (as a function), ... oh, I'm an idiot :(
2024-04-03 16:53:14 +0200 <Inst> type Flip a b c = a c b
2024-04-03 16:56:53 +0200 <kuribas> to be useful, that should be a Newtype
2024-04-03 16:57:21 +0200 <kuribas> type is just a synonym.
2024-04-03 16:57:32 +0200 <Inst> I know
2024-04-03 16:57:37 +0200zer0bitz_(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-03 16:58:00 +0200 <ncf> more importantly, type synonyms have to be fully applied... but if you can fully apply Flip, you might as well just flip the arguments
2024-04-03 16:58:00 +0200 <Inst> oh cool, you can use type operators
2024-04-03 16:58:13 +0200 <Inst> ncf: it's parens phobia
2024-04-03 16:58:32 +0200 <Inst> iirc there's a way to get instance declarations to accept newtypes, right?
2024-04-03 16:58:41 +0200 <Inst> erm, not newtypes, type synonyms, oh wait
2024-04-03 16:58:42 +0200 <Inst> ffff
2024-04-03 16:59:01 +0200 <Inst> I was hoping to implement a junk instance for Either wherein Left is value and Right is error
2024-04-03 16:59:19 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@151.57.164.10)
2024-04-03 17:00:36 +0200 <Inst> okay, I can't do this to get me a flipped Maybe, but iirc instancing newtypes can do so, as kuribas said :(
2024-04-03 17:00:40 +0200 <Inst> flipped Either
2024-04-03 17:02:36 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-04-03 17:05:10 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-03 17:06:05 +0200fererrorocher(fererroroc@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/fererrorocher)
2024-04-03 17:07:18 +0200zetef(~quassel@95.77.17.251)
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2024-04-03 17:07:33 +0200Maeda(~Maeda@91-161-10-149.subs.proxad.net)
2024-04-03 17:07:33 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be)
2024-04-03 17:08:32 +0200 <geekosaur> re instances on type synonyms, they're rejected normally to make it clear that they wouldn't be new instances
2024-04-03 17:08:58 +0200 <geekosaur> `instance Foo String` and `instance Foo [Char]` can't be distinct, for example
2024-04-03 17:09:03 +0200 <Inst> i know :(
2024-04-03 17:09:43 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-03 17:09:53 +0200 <Inst> also ncf was right about fully applied, I don't think I can get away with Flip Either () $ IO ()
2024-04-03 17:09:56 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine)
2024-04-03 17:09:56 +0200 <Inst> which was what i was looking for
2024-04-03 17:10:14 +0200 <shapr> that's the best name for a Haskell Recruiting Company, Fully Applied :-D
2024-04-03 17:10:42 +0200 <Inst> IO () `Either` () works though
2024-04-03 17:11:35 +0200 <Inst> also have you folks seen this?
2024-04-03 17:11:46 +0200 <Inst> https://www.vacationlabs.com/about-us/
2024-04-03 17:12:00 +0200 <Inst> https://www.vacationlabs.com/we-are-hiring/software-engineer-haskell/
2024-04-03 17:12:06 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2024-04-03 17:13:31 +0200destituion(~destituio@85.221.111.174) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-04-03 17:13:38 +0200 <Inst> https://www.haskelltutorials.com
2024-04-03 17:13:42 +0200 <Inst> the founder wrote this
2024-04-03 17:14:24 +0200destituion(~destituio@2a02:2121:655:c95b:1cb8:4c97:379e:c002)
2024-04-03 17:16:03 +0200 <mauke> "Something that doesn’t require us to maintain an 80%+ test coverage." o_O
2024-04-03 17:16:39 +0200 <ncf> this is cringe
2024-04-03 17:18:57 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar)
2024-04-03 17:18:59 +0200 <danse-nr3> thanks anyways, haskell jobs are always a rarity
2024-04-03 17:19:02 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-04-03 17:19:23 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-03 17:19:24 +0200 <Inst> oh no, i mean, it's an Indian op based in Goa
2024-04-03 17:19:34 +0200 <Inst> I'd assume everyone they hire is paid less than 20k USD / EUR a year
2024-04-03 17:20:43 +0200hc(~hc@mail.hce.li)
2024-04-03 17:22:16 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-03 17:24:02 +0200 <Inst> more that it'd be interesting to watch what they're doing
2024-04-03 17:24:13 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-03 17:30:10 +0200lennart2(~lennart@user/poxel) (WeeChat 4.2.1)
2024-04-03 17:30:29 +0200 <danse-nr3> i see well i could pursue my passion for haskell by moving to india in order to make that sustainable then XD
2024-04-03 17:33:07 +0200Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier)
2024-04-03 17:33:20 +0200billchenchina-(~billchenc@2a0d:2580:ff0c:1:e3c9:c52b:a429:5bfe)
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2024-04-03 18:23:38 +0200 <Inst> hmmm, also, regarding my previous Widget problem, can this be solved via DataFamilies?
2024-04-03 18:23:51 +0200sadie_(~sadie@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2024-04-03 18:24:27 +0200 <Inst> i.e, use the data family as a constraint?
2024-04-03 18:25:09 +0200 <Inst> I get the feeling that data families as constraint carriers are probably out of date, though
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2024-04-03 19:43:24 +0200Square2(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-03 19:50:04 +0200 <yin> it's not uncommon to hear that learning haskell is great beacuse it teaches you a useful way to think. how much of it is just the functional, lambda-calulusy way which you can learn from lisp and how much is haskell specific?
2024-04-03 19:50:46 +0200 <yin> s/calulusy/calculusy
2024-04-03 19:51:35 +0200 <geekosaur> I'd claim that most of it is neither. it's teaching you to be disciplined in programming, so you make fewer errors — which is especially important when programming in languages which won't catch them
2024-04-03 19:52:28 +0200 <geekosaur> (lisp being one such language, being untyped)
2024-04-03 19:53:44 +0200 <mauke> if lisp is lambda-calculusy, then so are javascript and perl
2024-04-03 19:54:13 +0200 <glguy> I don't remember my common lisp code being particularly functional. It's kind of a kitchen sink approach. If you were trying to learn functional programming common lisp probably doesn't help, but if you are already good at functional programming you could focus on functional programming in CL
2024-04-03 19:54:14 +0200Patternmaster(~georg@user/Patternmaster) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-03 19:55:25 +0200zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz)
2024-04-03 19:57:31 +0200 <c_wraith> Haskell is really good at forcing you to become clear what information it is you're passing around, how it's represented, when you care, and when you don't.
2024-04-03 19:58:10 +0200Guest35(~textual@188.177.17.196)
2024-04-03 19:58:12 +0200 <EvanR> parts of scheme can hit at parts of haskell, but many things in scheme are unhaskelly, and not having types misses much of the point of haskell
2024-04-03 19:58:57 +0200 <EvanR> laziness being not default behavior does have noticeable impact on your mentality
2024-04-03 19:59:17 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-03 19:59:38 +0200 <EvanR> it might be where a lot of "gotchas" in haskell come from, pretending stuff works like eager languages for the most part
2024-04-03 19:59:50 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-03 19:59:57 +0200 <EvanR> or hoping that the optimizer makes it so
2024-04-03 20:00:03 +0200 <mauke> turns out I can't "read" Haskell code with {-# LANGUAGE Strict #-}
2024-04-03 20:00:14 +0200 <mauke> it just breaks my mental model
2024-04-03 20:01:17 +0200 <c_wraith> My favorite part of -XStrict is that it wasn't enough to actually work, and they had to go on and make it possible to declare your own unlifted data types.
2024-04-03 20:01:31 +0200 <c_wraith> While I like that as a feature, the provenance amuses me.
2024-04-03 20:01:57 +0200 <ski> mauke : pretend it's ML ?
2024-04-03 20:02:24 +0200 <c_wraith> I think there needs to be more focus on operational semantics in instructional material. And more care in the compiler for not just breaking them arbitrarily.
2024-04-03 20:02:26 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
2024-04-03 20:02:30 +0200 <mauke> I forgot all of ocaml about one month into haskell
2024-04-03 20:03:13 +0200 <mauke> and I'm too used to certain identities and laws
2024-04-03 20:03:32 +0200 <mauke> like (\x -> f (g x)) being equivalent to (f . g), which does not hold under Strict
2024-04-03 20:03:53 +0200 <haskellbridge> <I​saac> Do you have an opinion on Carp (an attempt at typed lisp)?
2024-04-03 20:08:12 +0200 <ski> well, they've different space properties, under by-need, as well
2024-04-03 20:09:29 +0200 <Inst> how immutable is idiomatic lisp, anyways?
2024-04-03 20:09:43 +0200 <Inst> I'm told Common Lisp isn't very functional and it's usually just imperative programming with macros
2024-04-03 20:10:50 +0200 <ski> Scheme tends to use less mutation
2024-04-03 20:12:11 +0200 <Inst> Haskell can mutate, but it's idiomatic, and I've never seen or heard of someone using ST type for anything that wasn't a parlour trick
2024-04-03 20:12:21 +0200 <Inst> *it's rarely idiomatic
2024-04-03 20:13:07 +0200 <geekosaur> I've seen some uses, but it's not a common idiom indeed
2024-04-03 20:14:50 +0200 <c_wraith> ST is great for working with array algorithms. I don't think I use it outside of that. I realize there are graph algorithms it can help a lot with, but I never end up using those.
2024-04-03 20:15:25 +0200 <yin> what about typed racket? i only have experience with chez scheme
2024-04-03 20:15:29 +0200 <ski> i implemented logic variables with it
2024-04-03 20:15:51 +0200 <c_wraith> like, how often do you use union-find trees and need the path-compression portion of the algorithm?
2024-04-03 20:17:43 +0200 <Inst> iirc vector sort is implemented via ST, no?
2024-04-03 20:17:51 +0200 <c_wraith> that's an array algorithm for sure.
2024-04-03 20:18:03 +0200 <Inst> but to the end user it's invisible
2024-04-03 20:18:14 +0200 <c_wraith> the whole point of ST is that it's invisible to the end user.
2024-04-03 20:21:40 +0200 <EvanR> an onionskin inception nested levels of things invisible to the end user until you get a proper application!
2024-04-03 20:25:37 +0200 <yin> yeah, haskell is great because you can just recursively hoogle your functions until you understand them but that's a dream that quickly turns into a nightmare
2024-04-03 20:26:22 +0200 <yin> and i feel that you inevitably hit what i call the wall of lies
2024-04-03 20:27:07 +0200 <EvanR> that's dramatic
2024-04-03 20:27:26 +0200 <EvanR> can we call it a wall of simple misunderstandings
2024-04-03 20:28:46 +0200 <yin> the documentation throws little whites lies at you here and there. eventually it leads to you having to readjust your mental model from the bottom up
2024-04-03 20:28:57 +0200 <EvanR> example?
2024-04-03 20:29:12 +0200 <yin> great question. let me think
2024-04-03 20:29:21 +0200 <yin> think back at darker times
2024-04-03 20:30:15 +0200mrmr1553349(~mrmr@user/mrmr)
2024-04-03 20:30:51 +0200mrmr155334(~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2024-04-03 20:33:13 +0200yeitrafferin(~user@2a04:4540:720c:e100:14c3:dd23:e62:c091)
2024-04-03 20:34:31 +0200 <yin> i think that for me, one of the first offenders was ($)
2024-04-03 20:34:46 +0200 <yin> there's some compiler magic around it
2024-04-03 20:36:18 +0200 <glguy> $ used to be more magic than it is now
2024-04-03 20:37:04 +0200 <yin> yes, and the source seems to be way more informative than what i remember too
2024-04-03 20:37:45 +0200ars23(~ars23@free214.cs.upt.ro)
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2024-04-03 20:40:28 +0200 <EvanR> Inst, haskell can mutate. H98 -> Haskell2010 -> GHC2024
2024-04-03 20:41:07 +0200 <EvanR> -> ???
2024-04-03 20:41:16 +0200 <Rembane> -> Profit!
2024-04-03 20:42:42 +0200 <c_wraith> does $ still have magic? I thought that it was theoretically possible to get rid of it all now that quick look impredicative types work.
2024-04-03 20:42:54 +0200 <c_wraith> (but maybe not possible in practice)
2024-04-03 20:43:05 +0200 <EvanR> press B to stop evolution
2024-04-03 20:43:36 +0200 <geekosaur> $ implicitly always has ImpredicativeTypes turned on, iirc
2024-04-03 20:45:11 +0200 <c_wraith> I guess that's still minor magic.
2024-04-03 20:45:26 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2024-04-03 20:45:36 +0200 <c_wraith> Though way less than the "just erase it from the AST" hack that it used to have.
2024-04-03 20:48:10 +0200 <Inst> EvanR: what does that function do from its type signature?
2024-04-03 20:48:40 +0200 <Inst> also, is the reason I don't get type-level magic because I don't write my own typeclasses or instances aggressively enough?
2024-04-03 20:48:50 +0200 <Inst> like, if you're not mucking around with typeclasses, you don't need typelevel?
2024-04-03 20:49:22 +0200 <c_wraith> It's funny. I got so used to the Rank-2 workaround for impredicative types not working, I don't even think to use them now that they're supported better.
2024-04-03 20:49:25 +0200 <EvanR> it's the other way around? if you are doing type level programming aggressively enough, you need type classes?
2024-04-03 20:49:45 +0200 <Inst> contrapositive?
2024-04-03 20:49:45 +0200billchenchina-(~billchenc@2a0d:2580:ff0c:1:e3c9:c52b:a429:5bfe) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-03 20:50:03 +0200 <ski> converse
2024-04-03 20:50:14 +0200 <c_wraith> Inst: the most interesting uses of advanced type system features don't rely on classes at all.
2024-04-03 20:50:19 +0200 <Inst> ~p -> ~q implies Q -> p
2024-04-03 20:50:37 +0200 <Inst> like what?
2024-04-03 20:50:38 +0200 <EvanR> not's not there
2024-04-03 20:51:05 +0200 <c_wraith> Inst: suppose you want to run a work queue in another thread, and you want it to be able to run actions of any type and then send the response back to the caller at the correct type.
2024-04-03 20:51:57 +0200 <c_wraith> Inst: like... runInQueue :: Queue -> IO a -> IO a
2024-04-03 20:52:12 +0200 <Inst> I'm listening
2024-04-03 20:52:27 +0200 <c_wraith> Inst: how do you package up those IO actions to ship them off to the queue thread, and then get the results back at the correct type?
2024-04-03 20:53:15 +0200 <c_wraith> What type does the queue thread see for the action?
2024-04-03 20:53:18 +0200 <ncf> reject excluded middle
2024-04-03 20:53:28 +0200 <ski> @djinn (Not p -> Not q) -> NotNot (q -> p)
2024-04-03 20:53:28 +0200 <lambdabot> f a b = void (b (\ c -> void (a (\ d -> b (\ _ -> d)) c)))
2024-04-03 20:53:43 +0200 <ski> @djinn NotNot (Either p (Not p))
2024-04-03 20:53:43 +0200 <lambdabot> f a = void (a (Right (\ b -> a (Left b))))
2024-04-03 20:54:16 +0200 <Inst> something with rankN types?
2024-04-03 20:54:39 +0200 <c_wraith> "something" is correct, but.. missing a lot of details.
2024-04-03 20:56:06 +0200 <c_wraith> Inst: that question is a simplified version of what's going on in https://github.com/chowells79/shuttle/blob/main/src/Control/Shuttle.hs . (Still a draft, I never got around to finishing it. But it works, is type-safe, and needs some more advanced features.)
2024-04-03 20:56:39 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2024-04-03 21:01:07 +0200 <Inst> reading it right now
2024-04-03 21:01:22 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-04-03 21:01:28 +0200waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2024-04-03 21:02:31 +0200gdown(~gavin@h69-11-149-109.kndrid.broadband.dynamic.tds.net)
2024-04-03 21:03:41 +0200 <Inst> btw thanks ski, i guess, you spent a lot of effort, but you helped me understand the usage of forall yesterday / last night
2024-04-03 21:05:54 +0200 <ski> no problem
2024-04-03 21:06:25 +0200sadie_(~sadie@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-03 21:07:09 +0200target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099)
2024-04-03 21:08:15 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-04-03 21:08:29 +0200 <Inst> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/impredicative_types.html
2024-04-03 21:08:36 +0200 <Inst> ugh, i need to go learn more html / css
2024-04-03 21:09:01 +0200 <Inst> wanting to go back to prolog to understand unification and how that applies to Haskell's type system is an unbearably attractive diversion
2024-04-03 21:09:58 +0200zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2024-04-03 21:30:15 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-03 21:30:19 +0200 <monochrom> In fact, implement the Hindley-Milner-Robinson type inference algorithm in prolog. >:)
2024-04-03 21:30:28 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-03 21:30:55 +0200 <monochrom> Actually I should do that too. :)
2024-04-03 21:34:48 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
2024-04-03 21:37:06 +0200Ragner(~Ragner@ptr-94-108-15-212.dyn.orange.be) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-03 21:38:10 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2024-04-03 21:41:17 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-03 21:42:57 +0200imdoor(~imdoor@balticom-142-78-50.balticom.lv)
2024-04-03 21:48:54 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-03 21:49:10 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2024-04-03 21:57:38 +0200 <dmj`> monochrom: now add typeclasses :)
2024-04-03 21:57:55 +0200 <monochrom> :( :)
2024-04-03 22:08:06 +0200Guest1207(~ars23@79.114.26.206) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-04-03 22:09:32 +0200 <shapr> Is there a plugin for cabal that relaxes upper bounds to see if a project still builds and passes tests?
2024-04-03 22:10:33 +0200Guest35(~textual@188.177.17.196) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-03 22:12:24 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-03 22:12:57 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-03 22:14:37 +0200kaptch(~kaptch@eduroam09.au.dk)
2024-04-03 22:14:43 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
2024-04-03 22:15:12 +0200 <ncf> --allow-newer ?
2024-04-03 22:15:16 +0200Guest35(~textual@188.177.17.196)
2024-04-03 22:15:36 +0200 <shapr> ncf: that does the check, but I want something that also sets new upper bounds
2024-04-03 22:15:41 +0200 <shapr> computer!
2024-04-03 22:15:43 +0200 <shapr> automation!
2024-04-03 22:15:44 +0200 <shapr> adventure!
2024-04-03 22:15:47 +0200 <shapr> excitement!
2024-04-03 22:15:50 +0200shaprdrinks more caffeine
2024-04-03 22:15:55 +0200 <dmj`> @package bumper
2024-04-03 22:15:55 +0200 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bumper
2024-04-03 22:16:03 +0200 <shapr> dmj`: oooh!
2024-04-03 22:16:19 +0200 <shapr> I'll try that, thanks!
2024-04-03 22:16:39 +0200 <shapr> clearly we need more pinball themed tools
2024-04-03 22:17:04 +0200 <dmj`> shapr: np, not sure if its bitrotted
2024-04-03 22:17:35 +0200 <dmj`> monochrom: the french approach w/ typeclasses, a simple example would be nice
2024-04-03 22:17:37 +0200kaptch(~kaptch@eduroam09.au.dk) (Client Quit)
2024-04-03 22:17:54 +0200 <EvanR> french typeclasses?
2024-04-03 22:19:10 +0200 <dmj`> yes
2024-04-03 22:20:30 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-03 22:20:33 +0200 <dmj`> I'm just curious if its possible to apply substitutions /only/ in the solver, and not in the constraint generation
2024-04-03 22:20:43 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-03 22:23:08 +0200 <cheater> do i need to do something special to do let x :: Foo = "bar" ?
2024-04-03 22:23:16 +0200 <cheater> both equals and type at the same time
2024-04-03 22:23:39 +0200 <cheater> i don't remember that being a thing
2024-04-03 22:23:45 +0200 <cheater> but i'm seeing it in some code here (private)
2024-04-03 22:26:30 +0200 <geekosaur> it's part of `ScopedTypeVariables` for some reason, since it's a signature in a pattern
2024-04-03 22:26:39 +0200 <geekosaur> years ago it was its own extension
2024-04-03 22:26:43 +0200 <ski> `PatternSignatures' or `ScopedTypeVariables'
2024-04-03 22:27:38 +0200 <ski> > let x :: () = () in x
2024-04-03 22:27:40 +0200 <lambdabot> ()
2024-04-03 22:27:47 +0200 <ski> > let f () :: () = () in f () -- sadly, this doesn't work
2024-04-03 22:27:48 +0200 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: Parse error in pattern: f
2024-04-03 22:41:22 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.221) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-04-03 22:45:58 +0200bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b094:4010:8da6:3702:2f00:6014)
2024-04-03 22:46:06 +0200xal(~xal@mx1.xal.systems) ()
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2024-04-03 23:00:52 +0200 <cheater> ty
2024-04-03 23:01:49 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-03 23:09:22 +0200yeitrafferin(~user@2a04:4540:720c:e100:14c3:dd23:e62:c091) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-04-03 23:10:11 +0200benjaminl(~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-04-03 23:10:14 +0200benjaminl_(~benjaminl@2601:1c0:8480:d580:223:24ff:fe66:4370)
2024-04-03 23:11:59 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-03 23:12:10 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
2024-04-03 23:12:13 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
2024-04-03 23:12:47 +0200 <janus> in the context of ghc2021/2024 i have heard that ScopedTypeVariables is still in flux somehow
2024-04-03 23:13:05 +0200 <janus> does anyone have more context on this? i'd like to read
2024-04-03 23:13:47 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-181-16.static.ip.netia.com.pl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-04-03 23:16:46 +0200ncf(~n@monade.li) (Quit: Fairfarren.)
2024-04-03 23:19:31 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net)
2024-04-03 23:20:49 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores)
2024-04-03 23:30:46 +0200 <c_wraith> janus: it's kind of a grab bag of features, and one of the things it allows is being moved to a new extension, -XTypeAbstractions
2024-04-03 23:30:56 +0200 <c_wraith> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/type_abstractions.html
2024-04-03 23:31:24 +0200 <c_wraith> I imagine that is making some people uncomfortable about having it in the list of blessed safe extensions
2024-04-03 23:31:44 +0200 <c_wraith> But I haven't seen examples of that.
2024-04-03 23:33:01 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-03 23:33:03 +0200 <c_wraith> I believe https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0448-type-variable-scoping.rst is the high-level proposal related to the changes
2024-04-03 23:36:30 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-03 23:40:03 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-03 23:48:00 +0200target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving)
2024-04-03 23:51:42 +0200Guest35(~textual@188.177.17.196) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-03 23:59:35 +0200 <janus> thanks