2024/03/18

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2024-03-18 00:15:22 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
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2024-03-18 03:30:45 +0100clairejoseph(~clairejos@69.80.12.40)
2024-03-18 03:31:11 +0100 <clairejoseph> Hi, how do I become  contributor?
2024-03-18 03:31:17 +0100clairejoseph(~clairejos@69.80.12.40) (Client Quit)
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2024-03-18 04:27:46 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-03-18 04:28:03 +0100skiusually uses `return' with `do'-notation, and `pure' otherwise
2024-03-18 04:42:42 +0100terrorjack(~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:c17:87f8::) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
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2024-03-18 04:48:32 +0100ski(~ski@ext-1-033.eduroam.chalmers.se) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-03-18 04:50:02 +0100ski(~ski@ext-1-033.eduroam.chalmers.se)
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2024-03-18 04:57:53 +0100mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-169-166.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-03-18 05:00:25 +0100 <jackdk> I find `return`, even within `do`-notation, to activate wrong intuitions inherited from imperative programming and much prefer to use `pure` for most things. For `Maybe`, `Either e` and `[]` monads, I tend to write `Just`, `Right`, and `[]` explicitly as a visual cue to remind me what monad is in play.
2024-03-18 05:00:31 +0100xigua(~xigua@user/xigua) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2024-03-18 05:05:05 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net)
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2024-03-18 05:24:10 +0100JimL(~quassel@89.162.16.26) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2024-03-18 05:27:09 +0100 <arahael> I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but with HXT, I'm always feeling myself lost in the data structure. For example, right now I vaguely think I have an "NTree XNode" which I believe is some sort of attribute node. And I've forgotten where the attribute values are.
2024-03-18 05:27:09 +0100JimL(~quassel@89.162.16.26)
2024-03-18 05:28:14 +0100 <arahael> I think HXT prefers that I use "Arrows" instead, but nothing else I uses arrows.
2024-03-18 05:32:39 +0100 <arahael> I mean, I can persevere, with a ton of 'show a', to try and visualise what it is I'm dealing iwth, and then pattern matching with what I discover, but it's tedious.
2024-03-18 05:39:00 +0100 <arahael> Value wise, I have the attr's from an (XTag a attrs), which seems to be the xml attributes for the node.
2024-03-18 05:40:21 +0100falafel(~falafel@38.90.133.18)
2024-03-18 05:46:18 +0100k_hachig(~k_hachig@2607:fea8:351d:ef0:dd3f:bd40:d39e:dac7) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-03-18 05:47:55 +0100 <arahael> Consequently, I've written attrNameValue (NTree (XAttr b) [c]) = (fromJust $ XN.getLocalPart a, fromJust $ XN.getText c)
2024-03-18 05:48:47 +0100 <arahael> Consequently, I've written attrNameValue a@(NTree (XAttr b) [c]) = (fromJust $ XN.getLocalPart a, fromJust $ XN.getText c)
2024-03-18 05:49:43 +0100falafel(~falafel@38.90.133.18) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-03-18 05:56:05 +0100euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
2024-03-18 05:56:37 +0100 <jackdk> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hxt-9.3.1.22/docs/Text-XML-HXT-Arrow-XmlArrow.html#v:getAttrVa… seems like a lot of important stuff is on this typeclass. But I don't really remember HXT: I last used it ~10 years ago, it gave me a headache, and I'd probably use xml-conduit these days because that's what I most recently used.
2024-03-18 05:57:39 +0100ski(~ski@ext-1-033.eduroam.chalmers.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-03-18 05:59:12 +0100pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-03-18 05:59:55 +0100 <probie> +1 for xml-conduit
2024-03-18 06:02:05 +0100 <arahael> That looks a lot more approachable.
2024-03-18 06:03:24 +0100ski(~ski@ext-1-033.eduroam.chalmers.se)
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2024-03-18 08:51:18 +0100 <Hecate> good morning (CET) Haskell
2024-03-18 08:53:00 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-03-18 08:53:04 +0100 <arahael> G'eve'ning (AEDT) haskell. :)
2024-03-18 08:56:15 +0100meritamen(~meritamen@user/meritamen)
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2024-03-18 09:00:43 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-03-18 09:02:31 +0100 <Hecate> arahael: how's it going?
2024-03-18 09:02:36 +0100 <Hecate> are the monads behaving?
2024-03-18 09:04:04 +0100zfnmxt(~zfnmxt@user/zfnmxt)
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2024-03-18 09:15:08 +0100zetef(~quassel@95.77.17.251)
2024-03-18 09:15:54 +0100 <arahael> Hecate: Wow, you have good memories. I took a bit of a break from haskell - from most things actually. And now, somehow, haskell is a bit easier. Monads are pretty good.
2024-03-18 09:18:03 +0100 <Hecate> arahael: glad to hear you had a nice break :)
2024-03-18 09:18:16 +0100 <Hecate> yeah, a rested brain makes things easier :)
2024-03-18 09:19:22 +0100 <arahael> Definitely :)
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2024-03-18 11:24:08 +0100 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Rest?
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2024-03-18 11:34:16 +0100 <Hecate> yeah the thing we are usually bad at :P
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2024-03-18 13:06:02 +0100 <jackdk> I thought we were lazy functional programmers/
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2024-03-18 16:38:10 +0100 <c_wraith> I'm certainly lazy. Though I do think it's funny that I put a library on hackage in 2022 because I felt like it was missing, and it got its first actual user like a week ago.
2024-03-18 16:38:30 +0100 <c_wraith> that wasn't lazy of me!
2024-03-18 16:39:38 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@fi-19-207-175.service.infuturo.it)
2024-03-18 16:39:41 +0100 <L29Ah> did the user note that you forgot to include something vital in your release tarballs, or why do you think so?
2024-03-18 16:41:38 +0100 <c_wraith> oh, I was responding to a remark from a few hours ago: I thought we were lazy functional programmers
2024-03-18 16:41:58 +0100 <c_wraith> I'm usually lazy, but was accidentally eager that time!
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2024-03-18 16:52:22 +0100 <tomsmeding> c_wraith: I guess they were asking, maybe you had users all the time but you just didn't know :)
2024-03-18 16:52:36 +0100 <tomsmeding> doesn't discount the fact that it was very eager of you
2024-03-18 16:52:42 +0100 <c_wraith> theoretically possible.
2024-03-18 16:53:25 +0100 <c_wraith> and I did discover some documentation errors (typos, half-forgotten sentences) when I was asked about the library. So fixing those was definitely by demand.
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2024-03-18 17:46:15 +0100Guest11(~Guest11@166.70.31.28)
2024-03-18 17:51:54 +0100 <Guest11> !djinn ((((a->b)->b)->b)->b) -> ((a->b)->b)
2024-03-18 17:52:30 +0100 <int-e> ?djinn ((((a->b)->b)->b)->b) -> ((a->b)->b)
2024-03-18 17:52:30 +0100 <lambdabot> f a b = a (\ c -> c b)
2024-03-18 17:52:32 +0100Guest11(~Guest11@166.70.31.28) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-03-18 17:53:32 +0100 <int-e> :t \a b -> a (\ c -> c b)
2024-03-18 17:53:33 +0100 <lambdabot> (((t1 -> t2) -> t2) -> t3) -> t1 -> t3
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2024-03-18 18:10:48 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> meta-question: does the monad `return` discussion regularly happen here now and then?
2024-03-18 18:10:56 +0100 <geekosaur> yes
2024-03-18 18:11:00 +0100 <geekosaur> every couple months
2024-03-18 18:11:24 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> Ah.
2024-03-18 18:12:18 +0100mei(~mei@user/mei)
2024-03-18 18:14:37 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> Can't help but feel like monads are just the tip of the iceberg, and I don't see how people talk more often about other horrors under the surface
2024-03-18 18:14:47 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> talk less often*
2024-03-18 18:15:09 +0100 <geekosaur> oh, lots of other things come up as well
2024-03-18 18:15:40 +0100 <geekosaur> but some of them are so entrenched that it'd be virtually impossible to get rid of them without breaking the whole ecosystem at this point (for example, `Num`)
2024-03-18 18:16:12 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-192-162.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-03-18 18:16:21 +0100 <geekosaur> but that one is also a recurring discussion
2024-03-18 18:16:31 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-03-18 18:16:42 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> forgot to specify, i meant "talk" as in beginner-related discussions
2024-03-18 18:18:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> geekosaur: "breaking", as in, rebuilding from scratch?
2024-03-18 18:19:09 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> now that I think about it that sounds more horrifying
2024-03-18 18:19:39 +0100 <geekosaur> pretty much; requiring so many changes to existing programs as to be rather close to rewrites
2024-03-18 18:19:47 +0100 <geekosaur> `Num` is, after all, pretty fundamental
2024-03-18 18:20:41 +0100 <geekosaur> compare AMP, where it mostly sufficed to add 1 line to every monad instance (`instance Applicative MyMonad where { pure = return; (<*>) = ap; }`)
2024-03-18 18:20:42 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> wait isn't the haskell type system designed to be as modular as possible? unless if renaming all `Num`s to `Ring` would break git repositories :p
2024-03-18 18:21:03 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-03-18 18:21:23 +0100 <geekosaur> that would be rather more than just renaming, since `Ring` implies a lot of underlying machinery
2024-03-18 18:21:57 +0100 <geekosaur> and runs straight into Haskell being able to support only one typeclass instance per type, so you can't even define `Ring` properly
2024-03-18 18:22:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> oh wait, right, `Num`'s been around for quite a while so there's probably a handful of projects that depend on `signum`
2024-03-18 18:23:47 +0100 <geekosaur> (`numeric-prelude` etc. use various unsatisfying hacks)
2024-03-18 18:23:56 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> ah, is this what they call a supply chain?
2024-03-18 18:24:25 +0100 <geekosaur> annd yeh, removing stuff from `Num` or successor would also be a source of breakage
2024-03-18 18:25:43 +0100falafel(~falafel@38.90.133.18)
2024-03-18 18:29:34 +0100 <Hecate> that would warrant bumping the epoch version number of base to 5.*
2024-03-18 18:29:34 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> I just checked numeric-prelude... and in `Algebra.RealTranscedental`, I found something concerning: `class (C a, C a) => C a`
2024-03-18 18:29:47 +0100 <Hecate> haha
2024-03-18 18:29:48 +0100 <Hecate> aouch
2024-03-18 18:30:00 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> Is this one of the hacks you talked about?
2024-03-18 18:30:11 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> Because if not, then it certainly is a lot worse
2024-03-18 18:30:35 +0100 <dolio> numeric-prelude is designed in a particular style that does not work well with various tooling.
2024-03-18 18:30:38 +0100 <geekosaur> no, that's just Henning Thielmann
2024-03-18 18:30:59 +0100 <geekosaur> all the `C`s there are actually qualified, but haddock doesnt show it
2024-03-18 18:32:23 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> good to know
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2024-03-18 18:42:46 +0100 <probie> The hyperlinks in haddock point to the correct places though
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2024-03-18 18:47:02 +0100 <c_wraith> I'm still surprised Henning didn't take his style to the logical conclusion. Why only .T and .C? He could have gone all the way to .v!
2024-03-18 18:50:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> well a 'v' is a value, not a type, is it? :p
2024-03-18 18:51:00 +0100 <c_wraith> yes. only one value per module, of course!
2024-03-18 18:51:54 +0100 <geekosaur> you less often export values. and I suppose extending it to .f is more work and risks needing .hs-boot files
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2024-03-18 19:22:54 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2024-03-18 19:24:55 +0100 <dolio> Yeah, I'll never understand the style.
2024-03-18 19:25:23 +0100 <dolio> It just seems bad no matter what you do. Like, if you don't qualify, everything is incomprehensibly named the same thing.
2024-03-18 19:26:02 +0100 <geekosaur> he's just taking "everything should be qualified" to its (il?)logical conclusion
2024-03-18 19:26:03 +0100 <dolio> And if you do qualify, then all your names have garbage at the end, like `ActualName.T`.
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2024-03-18 19:54:57 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2024-03-18 20:07:46 +0100 <EvanR> in some popular languages now, qualifying everything is taken seriously and is seriously annoying
2024-03-18 20:08:00 +0100 <EvanR> it's like willfully not using language efficienctly
2024-03-18 20:08:37 +0100 <EvanR> and in those cases they have non henning names on top of the modular names for added redundancy
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2024-03-18 21:37:35 +0100colin(~colin@145.40.145.23) (Good Bye)
2024-03-18 21:37:55 +0100zetef(~quassel@5.2.182.98)
2024-03-18 21:41:09 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-03-18 21:44:54 +0100ania123(~ania123@146.255.226.194)
2024-03-18 21:47:05 +0100 <tomsmeding> I wonder if he would have been happier if haskell had some kind of syntax where x.f y z was sugar for f x y z
2024-03-18 21:47:21 +0100 <tomsmeding> some languages have that, e.g. nim
2024-03-18 21:49:12 +0100 <tomsmeding> https://nim-lang.org/docs/tut2.html#object-oriented-programming-method-call-syntax
2024-03-18 21:49:48 +0100tomsmedingdoesn't use nim, just found this particular syntax funny
2024-03-18 21:50:44 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh uh, this is superficially similar but something different
2024-03-18 21:51:36 +0100 <tomsmeding> okay it's just `import qualified Data.Map.Strict as Map ; import Data.Map.Strict (Map)` except hate for double import lines?
2024-03-18 21:52:27 +0100 <EvanR> haskell: sqrt(x^2 + y^2) OOP: (x.^2.+ y.^2).sqrt lisp: (sqrt (+ (^2 x) (^2 y)))
2024-03-18 21:53:12 +0100 <tomsmeding> no, haskell would put a space before that (
2024-03-18 21:53:13 +0100 <EvanR> *I rest my case*
2024-03-18 21:53:28 +0100 <EvanR> what's a space between friends
2024-03-18 21:53:50 +0100 <tomsmeding> ooh that .+ is evil
2024-03-18 21:54:06 +0100 <tomsmeding> that's smalltalk-level evil
2024-03-18 21:54:41 +0100 <EvanR> yeah that is what my brain jumps to when I see x.f y z = f x y z
2024-03-18 21:55:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> it's making the OOP people happy so that they can arr.length
2024-03-18 21:55:37 +0100Mr(~junkedsta@78.16.193.114) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-03-18 21:56:36 +0100Mr(~junkedsta@80.233.56.26)
2024-03-18 21:57:06 +0100 <geekosaur> perl IO syntax, anyone?
2024-03-18 21:58:00 +0100agander_m(agander_m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/aganderm/x-34304805)
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2024-03-18 21:59:35 +0100phma(phma@2001:5b0:212a:f3c8:6161:3f2d:dd4c:93de)
2024-03-18 22:00:51 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-03-18 22:01:01 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-192-162.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-03-18 22:01:22 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-192-162.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-03-18 22:01:41 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-03-18 22:02:22 +0100adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-03-18 22:02:56 +0100adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2024-03-18 22:03:12 +0100 <mauke> give $dog @treats; # $dog->give(@treats); "indirect object syntax"
2024-03-18 22:03:12 +0100Mr(~junkedsta@80.233.56.26) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-03-18 22:03:44 +0100Mr(~junkedsta@78.16.193.114)
2024-03-18 22:04:40 +0100 <probie> smalltalk isn't evil, it just had to give up a bit of syntactic sugar in the name of purity
2024-03-18 22:09:18 +0100_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
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2024-03-18 22:47:03 +0100 <haskellbridge> <s​m> smalltalk is far from
2024-03-18 22:47:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> <s​m> evil
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2024-03-18 23:03:18 +0100tomsmedingwasn't being very serious :p
2024-03-18 23:03:25 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
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2024-03-18 23:05:38 +0100[_](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
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