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2024-02-24 00:18:02 +0100 <EvanR> functions are conjuctions
2024-02-24 00:18:48 +0100 <geekosaur> "conjunction junction, what's your function?"
2024-02-24 00:18:53 +0100 <EvanR> lol
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2024-02-24 04:42:12 +0100hays(rootvegeta@fsf/member/hays) ()
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2024-02-24 08:22:52 +0100fraznel(~fuag1@c-73-221-56-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2024-02-24 08:26:30 +0100 <fraznel> Hey all, I'm just finishing up reading chris okasaki's paper on purely functional data structures which uses ML. after reading about it I went to look up a Haskell version of real time queues and found this https://www.well-typed.com/blog/2016/01/efficient-queues/
2024-02-24 08:27:12 +0100 <fraznel> in the paper the real time queue keeps a "schedule" of thunks that happens to start at the same thunk as the start of the queue and forces that schedule when it needs to but this implementation uses a lazy st monad with io refs
2024-02-24 08:27:45 +0100 <fraznel> is there a good reason in general to prefer monadic versions in haskell or.. why go for a monadic version here. Does haskell amortize thunks differently
2024-02-24 08:28:18 +0100 <fraznel> for example, if i put the same list thunk in a data in two places then force one of them, is the other now memoized up to where the second was
2024-02-24 08:28:51 +0100 <fraznel> i'm trying to reason about why they would go with a monadic implementation when it's not needed. The way the schedule works I suppose is monadic, but it seems like an extra restriction that is kinda clunky to work with
2024-02-24 08:29:41 +0100 <fraznel> s/io refs/stref + unsafeInterleaveST
2024-02-24 08:33:06 +0100stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
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2024-02-24 08:43:36 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-24 08:46:22 +0100 <c_wraith> fraznel: I remember that article. a key phrase from it is "This is where we diverge from Okasaki"
2024-02-24 08:52:10 +0100harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:c201:d680:59a0:7761:1557:ead5) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-02-24 08:52:42 +0100 <fraznel> aye, i'm trying to play around with ghci to better understand how haskell amortizes thunks but I'm not having much luck with :print, :force or seq. There's something i don't follow in the docs about forcing a viewing thunks there but i'm trying to figure out what this means https://play.haskell.org/saved/VZDMWWOR
2024-02-24 08:53:28 +0100 <fraznel> I would expect a to be [1,2]:3:[] but I cant find any docs that say that is the case and I'm still fumbling figuring out a way to check in ghci
2024-02-24 08:53:55 +0100 <fraznel> er, a to be a [1,2]:3:[] after the end of the program
2024-02-24 08:54:34 +0100 <mauke> [1,2]:3 looks a lot like a type error
2024-02-24 08:54:37 +0100 <fraznel> oh, seq will force everything i think if i'm understanding it right so i would expect a at the end to be fully evaluated [1,2,3]
2024-02-24 08:54:50 +0100 <c_wraith> yeah, that's a type error.
2024-02-24 08:55:01 +0100 <mauke> 1:2:3:[] is fully evaluated
2024-02-24 08:55:13 +0100 <mauke> seq only forces the top-level structure, not deeply
2024-02-24 08:55:31 +0100 <c_wraith> running main also won't cause seq to be evaluated there
2024-02-24 08:55:45 +0100 <mauke> your code never reaches seq
2024-02-24 08:55:49 +0100 <mauke> yeah :-)
2024-02-24 08:56:09 +0100 <mauke> in fact, b is unused and so is a
2024-02-24 08:56:37 +0100 <fraznel> haha
2024-02-24 08:56:46 +0100 <mauke> I'd expect ghc to compile this to no code at all :-)
2024-02-24 08:56:58 +0100 <fraznel> aye, its a artificial example and your right, that is a compile error i need ::[Integer]
2024-02-24 08:57:17 +0100 <mauke> > [1,2]:3:[] :: [Integer]
2024-02-24 08:57:18 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2024-02-24 08:57:18 +0100 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘[a0]’ with ‘Integer’
2024-02-24 08:57:18 +0100 <lambdabot> Expected type: [Integer]
2024-02-24 08:57:35 +0100 <fraznel> but assuming a is used later on and b is only ever used to seq... and a is typed well to [Integer]
2024-02-24 08:57:42 +0100 <fraznel> hmm. i guess i don't know how to ask the question right
2024-02-24 08:58:13 +0100 <fraznel> will forcing another bound thunk to evaluate force other names bound to that thunk to evaluate as well in haskell?
2024-02-24 08:58:13 +0100 <mauke> you seem to think a:b:[] can be "evaluated" to [a,b]
2024-02-24 08:58:18 +0100 <mauke> that is not the case
2024-02-24 08:58:37 +0100 <mauke> [a,b] is pretty syntax for the structure that is a:b:[]
2024-02-24 08:58:41 +0100 <fraznel> right
2024-02-24 08:58:56 +0100 <fraznel> how about with + then
2024-02-24 08:59:06 +0100 <fraznel> uh.. i'll rewrite it and check for compilation errors
2024-02-24 08:59:28 +0100 <mauke> let a = sqrt 2; b = a in print b
2024-02-24 08:59:43 +0100 <mauke> "does this evaluate a?" <- is that what you're asking?
2024-02-24 09:00:45 +0100 <fraznel> yes
2024-02-24 09:01:02 +0100 <fraznel> does that make a amortized and now a seq of a won't force any new thunks
2024-02-24 09:01:41 +0100 <fraznel> let a = sqrt 2; b = a in print b; seq a ()
2024-02-24 09:01:45 +0100 <c_wraith> I think you've skipped a few steps, and that's really biting you.
2024-02-24 09:01:47 +0100 <fraznel> does that seq then no longer do any "work"
2024-02-24 09:02:11 +0100 <mauke> don't know about amortized but the answer is yes: a and b are just names for the same thunk, and forcing a thunk makes it replace itself by the result
2024-02-24 09:02:11 +0100sroso(~sroso@user/SrOso) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-24 09:02:56 +0100 <c_wraith> amortization is an issue to address once you understand what laziness is doing.
2024-02-24 09:04:33 +0100 <fraznel> bah, my brains mush with being specific tonight. but I think you guys helped things click with haskell and thunk evaluation. I don't know why that word came out of my fingers. :P Scheduling is a way to change amortized complexity into worst case complexity provided you can prove it by something like the bankers method in a proof
2024-02-24 09:05:35 +0100 <c_wraith> yeah, but if you want to know why unsafeInterleaveST is involved, it gets really deep into the weeds.
2024-02-24 09:05:52 +0100 <fraznel> i'm going to keep fiddling with ghci to see if i can get good feedback about thunk evaluation the sqrt example is super helpful. Is there a better way to get a graph of thunks or evaluated vs unevaluated and what thunk references which other than :print, :force / sec
2024-02-24 09:06:00 +0100 <c_wraith> in particular, it has to do with preventing duplicated work when sharing is involved
2024-02-24 09:06:24 +0100 <c_wraith> if you track down the reddit thread for that blog post, it goes into more details
2024-02-24 09:06:44 +0100 <fraznel> why would that prevent duplicated work more so than having more of a schedule list you are forcing with seq?
2024-02-24 09:06:48 +0100 <c_wraith> I remember this because I asked why it was so complicated. :)
2024-02-24 09:06:53 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-24 09:07:08 +0100 <fraznel> oh... does it prevent persistant old copies from duplicating? wait, no the persistant old copies should reference the same thunks still... :|
2024-02-24 09:07:24 +0100 <c_wraith> yes. they reference a chain of pointers.
2024-02-24 09:07:43 +0100 <c_wraith> it lets the implementation skip the chain of pointers with persistent access
2024-02-24 09:08:22 +0100 <fraznel> oh, so it doesn't have to iterate through some representation of thunks to progress the schedule then?
2024-02-24 09:08:28 +0100 <mauke> there was a graphical tool somewhere to visualize data structures and thunks
2024-02-24 09:08:31 +0100 <c_wraith> yes
2024-02-24 09:08:40 +0100 <mauke> anyone remember what I'm talking about?
2024-02-24 09:09:27 +0100 <c_wraith> vacuum? or... it got a successor, didn't it?
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2024-02-24 09:12:33 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-24 09:13:04 +0100 <fraznel> c_wraith, glad you saw that then, it seemed super complicated of an implementation to me too. I'll try to find the reddit thread. I don't get it and want to for sure.
2024-02-24 09:13:50 +0100 <fraznel> vacuum looks great!
2024-02-24 09:15:11 +0100 <c_wraith> hmm. there was ghc-heap-view, but it also looks unmaintained at this point
2024-02-24 09:20:35 +0100 <fraznel> c_wraith, mauke thanks for the tips! I'm gonna chase some of the tools down and play around with them
2024-02-24 09:21:38 +0100krei-se(~krei-se@p5085d2ec.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-02-24 09:27:25 +0100danza(~francesco@151.19.225.172)
2024-02-24 09:27:38 +0100 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> fraznel: "[1,2]:3:[]" are you looking for "[1,2] ++ [3]"?
2024-02-24 09:28:21 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e737e74169014d40f6ae7dec.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-02-24 09:29:05 +0100krei-se(~krei-se@p5085d2ec.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-02-24 09:30:38 +0100 <fraznel> rereading what i said i was mixing up terms left and right. I should have used ++ not : and I kept using amortize instead of memoize :X, watching a video of someone who has ghc-viz compiling and is poking around with it in ghci
2024-02-24 09:33:53 +0100 <fraznel> just for general library availability, this video is really good at showing the memory model of sharing / laziness in ghc so far https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lnCG18TaY
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2024-02-24 10:00:00 +0100 <kaol> I'm reading about MLIR (an LLVM thing for interfacing with it). I've ran into the phrase "generated automatically" several times now and if this was in Haskell it would just be a Functor or something else and you'd know it'd have certain properties right away without ever encountering those words.
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2024-02-24 17:42:58 +0100 <hololeap> kaol: what about a Functor is generated automatically? a functor allows you to modify some inner value
2024-02-24 17:44:39 +0100 <hololeap> maybe you're thinking of a monoid?
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2024-02-24 17:55:44 +0100TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker)
2024-02-24 17:57:16 +0100 <kaol> I know very well what a functor is, thank you.
2024-02-24 17:58:18 +0100 <kaol> I'm just missing the clarity of having documentation say that this is abstraction X right away.
2024-02-24 17:59:06 +0100 <kaol> This is C++ so I have to wade through a swamp to finally glean that any single thing is after all something very simple when you find the right way to look at it.
2024-02-24 17:59:24 +0100 <kaol> I've been spoiled.
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2024-02-24 20:03:25 +0100 <kvgrai> hey
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2024-02-24 21:54:25 +0100iteratee(~kyle@162.218.222.207) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2024-02-24 21:59:08 +0100TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish)
2024-02-24 22:00:53 +0100sprout_(~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-b140-8bd0-1a5f-1944.fixed6.kpn.net)
2024-02-24 22:01:35 +0100zetef(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:c040:6289:5a5f:2d91)
2024-02-24 22:02:47 +0100sprout__(~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-252b-984d-420d-e98d.fixed6.kpn.net)
2024-02-24 22:04:04 +0100sprout(~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-a83b-8754-fdb3-8d27.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-24 22:05:15 +0100oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-181-16.static.ip.netia.com.pl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-02-24 22:05:59 +0100zetef_(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:c040:6289:5a5f:2d91)
2024-02-24 22:06:06 +0100sprout_(~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-b140-8bd0-1a5f-1944.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-02-24 22:07:48 +0100zetef(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:c040:6289:5a5f:2d91) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-02-24 22:10:57 +0100_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-24 22:13:03 +0100iteratee_(~kyle@162.218.222.207)
2024-02-24 22:15:44 +0100iteratee(~kyle@162.218.222.207) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-02-24 22:15:46 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2024-02-24 22:18:27 +0100sprout__sprout
2024-02-24 22:24:17 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2024-02-24 22:24:21 +0100gateway(~user@p200300f91711f40021e002e59cf24cbd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.1))
2024-02-24 22:24:45 +0100a51(a51@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/a51) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.1)
2024-02-24 22:25:19 +0100a51(a51@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/a51)
2024-02-24 22:26:17 +0100rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.248)
2024-02-24 22:27:33 +0100picnoir(~picnoir@about/aquilenet/vodoo/NinjaTrappeur) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.1)
2024-02-24 22:28:00 +0100a51(a51@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/a51) (Client Quit)
2024-02-24 22:29:49 +0100zetef_(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:c040:6289:5a5f:2d91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-24 22:29:52 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-02-24 22:30:27 +0100picnoir(~picnoir@about/aquilenet/vodoo/NinjaTrappeur)
2024-02-24 22:33:46 +0100mulk(~mulk@91.17.36.199) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-24 22:33:54 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net)
2024-02-24 22:34:08 +0100iteratee_(~kyle@162.218.222.207) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-24 22:34:26 +0100mulk(~mulk@pd9514bb2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-02-24 22:34:32 +0100iteratee(~kyle@162.218.222.207)
2024-02-24 22:37:05 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-24 22:37:23 +0100FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte) (Quit: Quit)
2024-02-24 22:39:17 +0100FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte)
2024-02-24 22:43:57 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-24 22:47:09 +0100zetef(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:c040:6289:5a5f:2d91)
2024-02-24 22:47:14 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.161.13) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-02-24 22:47:56 +0100rscastilho2024(rscastilho@189.61.140.215)
2024-02-24 22:48:22 +0100rscastilho2024(rscastilho@189.61.140.215) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-24 22:52:03 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-24 22:55:50 +0100a51(a51@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/a51)
2024-02-24 23:00:40 +0100[exa](~exa@user/exa/x-3587197) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.2)
2024-02-24 23:06:23 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.161.13)
2024-02-24 23:13:05 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-02-24 23:17:04 +0100zetef(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:c040:6289:5a5f:2d91) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2024-02-24 23:18:18 +0100zetef(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:2eac:56a:f29c:cb5b)
2024-02-24 23:19:55 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.200) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-02-24 23:21:15 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-24 23:22:53 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:2ce:9400:e6b9:7aff:fe80:3d03) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2024-02-24 23:25:35 +0100zetef(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:2eac:56a:f29c:cb5b) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-24 23:26:14 +0100zetef(~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:2eac:56a:f29c:cb5b)
2024-02-24 23:27:24 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael)
2024-02-24 23:30:55 +0100amjoseph(~amjoseph@static-198-44-128-146.cust.tzulo.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-24 23:31:53 +0100bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b086:477d:7583:8839:720f:c01b)
2024-02-24 23:46:05 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.161.13) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-02-24 23:50:51 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2024-02-24 23:52:27 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.161.13)
2024-02-24 23:58:00 +0100jargon(~jargon@53.sub-174-205-227.myvzw.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-24 23:59:34 +0100jargon(~jargon@53.sub-174-205-227.myvzw.com)