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2024-02-13 05:20:47 +0000 <jackdk> Lens question: I seek to write a function with the following type: `makeMap :: (Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> Set a -> f (Map a b)`. I can almost do it with `lens`: `makeMap f = toMapOf (folded . selfIndex . _)` but I can't find an applicative variant of `to`. Is there one, or am I doomed?
2024-02-13 05:22:28 +0000 <jackdk> (A non-lens solution: `makeMap f = sequenceA . Map.fromSet f`, but I've been nerd-sniped)
2024-02-13 05:30:20 +0000azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2024-02-13 05:53:37 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-13 05:56:55 +0000Maxdaman1usMaxdamantus
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2024-02-13 08:27:21 +0000 <Axman6> jackdk: that looks like one of the cases where you can passed directly to the lens; one of the several functions in lens which are defined as id
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2024-02-13 09:32:39 +0000 <ncf> you don't need an applicative version of to, you need an applicative version of toMapOf
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2024-02-13 10:45:22 +0000mima(~mmh@wifi-eduroam-84-150.paris.inria.fr) ()
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2024-02-13 10:57:51 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
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2024-02-13 11:19:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> I have newly enabled a bunch of extensions in an old code base. GHC got a bit more picky about Kind inference. There are a few places were I now need a (a :: Type) annotation. I assume because GHC is infering a too general kind. Does anyone know which extension does that?
2024-02-13 11:20:12 +0000motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2024-02-13 11:20:13 +0000yoo(~yo0O0o@104.28.226.105)
2024-02-13 11:21:05 +0000 <[Leary]> maralorn: PolyKinds, presumably.
2024-02-13 11:25:48 +0000motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-13 11:26:38 +0000 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> [Leary]: Thank you, makes sense!
2024-02-13 11:28:26 +0000motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2024-02-13 11:29:20 +0000waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
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2024-02-13 11:37:16 +0000pruiz(~user@user/pruiz) (ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.1))
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2024-02-13 11:45:34 +0000 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> This might be stupid, but why is `NaN` not a constructor of `Double`
2024-02-13 11:45:48 +0000 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> you have to use `0/0` which "gets" you that value
2024-02-13 11:49:37 +0000cheater(~Username@user/cheater)
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2024-02-13 11:50:18 +0000flounders(~flounders@24.246.176.178)
2024-02-13 11:51:49 +0000yoo(~yo0O0o@104.28.226.106) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-02-13 11:52:03 +0000 <ncf> what is the question exactly? do you mean "why isn't Double defined as an inductive type with a NaN constructor?" or "why isn't NaN a valid number literal?" ?
2024-02-13 11:54:44 +0000 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Maybe we can add a PatternSynonym for that to base?^^
2024-02-13 11:56:10 +0000 <ncf> > pattern NaN <- (isNaN -> True) where NaN = 0/0
2024-02-13 11:56:12 +0000 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error:
2024-02-13 11:56:12 +0000 <lambdabot> Parse error in pattern: pattern
2024-02-13 11:56:12 +0000 <lambdabot> Possibly caused by a missing 'do'?
2024-02-13 11:56:21 +0000 <ncf> % pattern NaN <- (isNaN -> True) where NaN = 0/0
2024-02-13 11:56:21 +0000 <yahb2> <interactive>:169:13: error: ; parse error on input ‘<-’ ; Perhaps this statement should be within a 'do' block?
2024-02-13 11:56:27 +0000 <ncf> :(
2024-02-13 11:57:08 +0000 <danse-nr3> > 0/0
2024-02-13 11:57:09 +0000 <lambdabot> NaN
2024-02-13 11:57:10 +0000motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2024-02-13 11:57:12 +0000 <jackdk> ncf: Yes, an applicative version of `toMapOf` sounds right. Thanks for the insight.
2024-02-13 12:00:07 +0000 <Axman6> what's the type of toMapOf (folded . selfIndex) jackdk?
2024-02-13 12:00:52 +0000 <ncf> (Ord i, Foldable f) => f i -> Map i i
2024-02-13 12:00:56 +0000 <jackdk> Axman6: (Ord a, Foldable f) => f a -> Map a a
2024-02-13 12:02:02 +0000 <ncf> :t Data.Map.fromSet id
2024-02-13 12:02:03 +0000 <lambdabot> S.Set a -> M.Map a a
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2024-02-13 12:17:31 +0000yoo(~yo0O0o@104.28.226.104)
2024-02-13 12:18:24 +0000 <Guest10> Hello
2024-02-13 12:18:25 +0000 <Guest10> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Rg7AfEH9
2024-02-13 12:20:02 +0000 <Guest10> Why "res" is fully evaluated?
2024-02-13 12:22:29 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
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2024-02-13 12:30:02 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:2ab:ac00:e6b9:7aff:fe80:3d03)
2024-02-13 12:34:09 +0000yoo(~yo0O0o@104.28.194.106)
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2024-02-13 12:52:48 +0000 <mauke> Guest10: 1) how do you know it is? 2) you'd have to ask httpJSON
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2024-02-13 13:41:59 +0000segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@2600:1702:6d0:e930:a854:aacf:c202:aba3)
2024-02-13 13:42:29 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> hello i am probably the worst at haskell here and am trying to get the first example here working https://guygastineau.com/files/FizzBuzz.pdf
2024-02-13 13:42:48 +0000mei(~mei@user/mei) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-13 13:43:43 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> there are some simple issues in pasting this code from the PDF, you can see here: https://paste.rs/FlDbl.hs
2024-02-13 13:44:18 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i don't know what ∘ should become here, maybe . ?
2024-02-13 13:44:39 +0000 <ncf> yes
2024-02-13 13:44:59 +0000 <ncf> or use base-unicode-symbols
2024-02-13 13:45:13 +0000mei(~mei@user/mei)
2024-02-13 13:45:15 +0000 <ncf> (https://wiki.haskell.org/Unicode-symbols)
2024-02-13 13:47:53 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> hmm {-# LANGUAGE UnicodeSyntax #-} didn't fix the issue, shrug ...
2024-02-13 13:48:00 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-13 13:48:24 +0000czy`(~user@117.63.127.239) (Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.2.50))
2024-02-13 13:48:57 +0000 <ncf> <ncf> or use base-unicode-symbols
2024-02-13 13:49:12 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-198-167.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-02-13 13:50:05 +0000myxokephale(~myxos@065-028-251-121.inf.spectrum.com) (Quit: myxokephale)
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2024-02-13 13:56:21 +0000segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@2600:1702:6d0:e930:a854:aacf:c202:aba3) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-13 13:57:04 +0000segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@2600:1702:6d0:e930:a854:aacf:c202:aba3)
2024-02-13 13:57:38 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> let me know if this is too basic of a question but i am interested to understand forM_ and IO here... in particular fizzBuzz is IO () but everything else is String ... here is code which runs if you like https://paste.rs/HRMla.hs
2024-02-13 13:58:20 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i guess forM_ somehow sequences the IO actions emitted but the putStrLn in fizzBuzz ?
2024-02-13 13:58:40 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> *by the putStrLn
2024-02-13 14:02:41 +0000 <ncf> that's what it does
2024-02-13 14:02:43 +0000mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c740af24ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-02-13 14:06:04 +0000alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3341-44af-08ee-d5a2-2eb4-3c55.rev.sfr.net)
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2024-02-13 14:10:06 +0000 <ncf> segfaultfizzbuzz: it might help to translate this from point-free style
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2024-02-13 14:34:09 +0000SilverT(~Thunderbi@92-110-9-137.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) ()
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2024-02-13 14:37:11 +0000Rhodon(~Thunderbi@user/Rhodon) (#haskell)
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2024-02-13 15:07:52 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> if i write appendMaybe (fizz i) " " (buzz i) then ghc complains Couldn't match type: Maybe String with: [Char] but in ghci, :t " " is String ... how does this make sense?
2024-02-13 15:08:30 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> the error message seems to contradict itself as well, because it goes on to complain: Expected: String Actual: Maybe String
2024-02-13 15:08:59 +0000 <ncf> are you trying to putStrLn the result?
2024-02-13 15:09:56 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2024-02-13 15:15:54 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i am eventually going to putStrLn, i am trying to remove the point free style as you suggested
2024-02-13 15:16:17 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> but i am surprised that the type of " " seems to have changed when i make what appears to be the same function call as in the pointfree implementation
2024-02-13 15:17:14 +0000 <ncf> i doubt the error is about the type of " ", but it's hard to say without actually seeing the error
2024-02-13 15:18:21 +0000 <ncf> (and the code that triggers it)
2024-02-13 15:19:37 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> https://paste.rs/BwmNU.hs
2024-02-13 15:19:47 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> at the moment i am just worried about making fbfn work
2024-02-13 15:20:32 +0000 <ncf> appendMaybe returns a Maybe String, not a String
2024-02-13 15:21:02 +0000 <ncf> note that the entire "appendMaybe ... ... ..." expression is underlined, not just " "
2024-02-13 15:21:08 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> but why is it complaining about [Char] ...?
2024-02-13 15:21:20 +0000 <ncf> because fbfn returns a [Char]
2024-02-13 15:21:41 +0000 <ncf> so that is the expected type of that expression, whereas its actual type is the return type of appendMaybe
2024-02-13 15:21:57 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> but it says fbfn :: Int -> String ... ???
2024-02-13 15:22:31 +0000 <ncf> String is an alias for [Char]
2024-02-13 15:22:38 +0000 <ncf> @src String
2024-02-13 15:22:39 +0000 <lambdabot> type String = [Char]
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2024-02-13 15:22:58 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ayaa that is confusing
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2024-02-13 16:27:56 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so i changed fbfn to Int -> Maybe String and that is fine for now
2024-02-13 16:28:21 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> but i need to convert that into something which can be printed
2024-02-13 16:28:36 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i am trying to use a combination of fromMaybe and show, as the original code did, but no permutation is working
2024-02-13 16:28:57 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> for example: fromMaybe (fbfn 4)
2024-02-13 16:29:21 +0000 <ncf> :t fromMaybe
2024-02-13 16:29:22 +0000 <lambdabot> a -> Maybe a -> a
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2024-02-13 17:05:17 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so fbfn is now Int -> String: https://paste.rs/9kLlt.hs but forM_ is unhappy with me
2024-02-13 17:06:01 +0000alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3341-44af-80cf-6700-420f-0553.rev.sfr.net)
2024-02-13 17:07:11 +0000Rhodon(~Thunderbi@user/Rhodon) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-02-13 17:08:15 +0000 <geekosaur> `forM_ (putStrLn fbfn [1 .. 100] )` looks pretty wrong to me
2024-02-13 17:08:18 +0000 <ncf> :t forM_
2024-02-13 17:08:19 +0000 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
2024-02-13 17:08:38 +0000econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com)
2024-02-13 17:08:44 +0000 <ncf> you can use hoogle to look up the types of things: https://hoogle.haskell.org/?scope=set%3Astackage&hoogle=forM_
2024-02-13 17:11:12 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> forM_ (putStrLn [1 .. 100] fbfn) is also unhappy -- i assume that the list from 1 to 100 is foldable, and... i guess the monad should be (putStrLn fbfn) ? that doesn't work either...
2024-02-13 17:11:38 +0000 <ncf> ??
2024-02-13 17:11:49 +0000 <mauke> the problem is that forM_ takes two arguments
2024-02-13 17:11:50 +0000 <ncf> the monad is IO
2024-02-13 17:11:54 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> hoogle says forM_ :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
2024-02-13 17:11:55 +0000 <mauke> ( ... ) is one
2024-02-13 17:12:17 +0000 <mauke> (well, one of the problems)
2024-02-13 17:12:35 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> it says this behaves like a map with the arguments flipped, and i am used to map f [1 .. 100]
2024-02-13 17:12:42 +0000 <mauke> yes
2024-02-13 17:12:45 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so this is weirdmap [1 .. 100] f
2024-02-13 17:12:50 +0000 <mauke> exactly
2024-02-13 17:13:14 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and f should be IO, and i think putStrLn makes something IO?
2024-02-13 17:13:23 +0000 <mauke> no
2024-02-13 17:13:26 +0000 <mauke> f should be a function
2024-02-13 17:15:00 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-02-13 17:15:15 +0000 <mauke> segfaultfizzbuzz: do you know how to write anonymous functions in Haskell?
2024-02-13 17:20:14 +0000Nikopol(nikopol@user/astrorigin)
2024-02-13 17:22:21 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> no
2024-02-13 17:22:38 +0000igemnace(~ian@user/igemnace) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-13 17:22:45 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> well, is that like (+1) ?
2024-02-13 17:23:05 +0000 <mauke> that's a special case. generally it involves \
2024-02-13 17:23:25 +0000 <mauke> but you can literally write: forM_ [1 .. 100] f
2024-02-13 17:23:36 +0000 <mauke> where f x = putStrLn (fbfn x)
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2024-02-13 17:26:44 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> generally speaking i am not fond of "clever" ways of writing code,... yeah when i do forM_ [1 .. 100] fbfn ghc complains, and it also complains about forM_ [1 .. 100] (putStrLn fbfn)
2024-02-13 17:27:08 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> oh you have to put an argument there, i see
2024-02-13 17:27:13 +0000k_hachig(~k_hachig@ipagstaticip-b4f1257d-69a8-678e-1ff6-80999a2f9589.sdsl.bell.ca)
2024-02-13 17:27:58 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-13 17:28:01 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> that's weird, why can't i say forM_ [1 .. 100] (putStrLn fbfn) ?
2024-02-13 17:28:06 +0000 <mauke> that's type error
2024-02-13 17:28:18 +0000 <mauke> putStrLn takes a String, but you're giving it an Int -> String
2024-02-13 17:28:40 +0000 <mauke> that is, you're trying to pass fbfn (a function) to putStrLn, which wants a String
2024-02-13 17:28:42 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> but forM_ applies the [1 .. 100] to the function,...
2024-02-13 17:28:53 +0000 <mauke> that comes later
2024-02-13 17:29:10 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ok i guess this is just part of getting used to reading haskell
2024-02-13 17:29:30 +0000 <mauke> and causes a second problem because putStrLn XXX has type IO ()
2024-02-13 17:29:36 +0000 <mauke> which is not a function
2024-02-13 17:30:11 +0000 <mauke> (XXX represents any value)
2024-02-13 17:30:32 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> IO is not a function? it's a ... monad.. ? i guess?
2024-02-13 17:30:55 +0000 <mauke> a value of type IO () is just ... some value
2024-02-13 17:31:01 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so a monad is a type ?
2024-02-13 17:31:01 +0000 <mauke> it's abstract
2024-02-13 17:31:14 +0000 <mauke> technically, a monad has to be a parameterized type
2024-02-13 17:31:29 +0000 <mauke> so not like Int or String, but like IO or Maybe
2024-02-13 17:31:41 +0000 <johnw> I wouldn't say IO _is_ a monad, it's a data type that presents the Monad interface as a way of interacting with it
2024-02-13 17:31:57 +0000 <mauke> IO is a monad like 42 is an Integer
2024-02-13 17:31:57 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so monad is not a type then
2024-02-13 17:32:09 +0000 <johnw> Monad is a type _class_
2024-02-13 17:32:14 +0000 <johnw> it's an algebra with laws
2024-02-13 17:32:22 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> typeclassof(42) = Num, typeclassof(IO) = monad
2024-02-13 17:32:34 +0000 <mauke> heh
2024-02-13 17:32:41 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i am familiar with typeclasses, at least from rust
2024-02-13 17:32:44 +0000 <yushyin> maybe start by not using pointfree-style
2024-02-13 17:33:04 +0000 <mauke> that's not quite accurate because a type (or type constructor) can implement multiple classes :-)
2024-02-13 17:33:12 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> well i had to try to read as much of a PDF documenting fizzbuzz as i could
2024-02-13 17:33:19 +0000 <johnw> typeclassof(Int) = Num
2024-02-13 17:33:19 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> it bubbled up on r/haskell
2024-02-13 17:33:21 +0000 <johnw> not 42
2024-02-13 17:33:26 +0000 <mauke> oh, that too
2024-02-13 17:33:42 +0000 <ncf> "typeclassof" doesn't make any sense
2024-02-13 17:34:03 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> typeclasses(42) = [Num], typeclasses(IO) = [Monad] then i guess ?
2024-02-13 17:34:03 +0000 <johnw> it's also not the only type class that Int implements; but I get the gist
2024-02-13 17:34:12 +0000 <johnw> you're mixing values and types still
2024-02-13 17:34:27 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> typeclasses(typeof(42)) = [Num]
2024-02-13 17:34:32 +0000 <johnw> there you go :)
2024-02-13 17:34:36 +0000 <ncf> IO implements Monad. Int implements Num. 42 has type Int. putStrLn "hi" has type IO ().
2024-02-13 17:34:38 +0000 <mauke> segfaultfizzbuzz: if anything, typeclasses(Int) = [Num, Eq, Ord, Read, Show, ...]
2024-02-13 17:34:41 +0000 <johnw> [Num, Integral, Bounded, ...]
2024-02-13 17:34:59 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> yeah i think i understand
2024-02-13 17:35:11 +0000 <mauke> segfaultfizzbuzz: but the set is "open" in the sense that you can define additional instances for Int in your own code
2024-02-13 17:35:28 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and it remains Int?
2024-02-13 17:35:34 +0000 <mauke> sure
2024-02-13 17:35:41 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> whatwhat, that makes no sense
2024-02-13 17:35:42 +0000Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-13 17:35:49 +0000 <mauke> ?
2024-02-13 17:36:07 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so i can append to typeclasses(Int) ?
2024-02-13 17:36:20 +0000 <mauke> class Twice a where { twice :: a -> a }; instance Twice Int where { twice x = 2 * x }
2024-02-13 17:36:23 +0000 <mauke> yes
2024-02-13 17:36:49 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ...doesn't make sense, then Int would behave like it was mutable ... ?
2024-02-13 17:36:57 +0000 <mauke> how so?
2024-02-13 17:37:00 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> a mutable type
2024-02-13 17:37:10 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> it would make more sense to have a typealias
2024-02-13 17:37:22 +0000 <mauke> we're just defining additional operations over an existing type
2024-02-13 17:37:41 +0000 <mauke> the class instances aren't part of the type
2024-02-13 17:37:57 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> like TwiceableInt = appendtypeclass( Int Twiceable)
2024-02-13 17:38:16 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> err sorry still used to parenthesis here: TwiceableInt appendtypeclass Int Twiceable
2024-02-13 17:38:29 +0000Square(~Square@user/square)
2024-02-13 17:38:42 +0000 <mauke> why are you trying to bundle up a type with classes?
2024-02-13 17:38:44 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> am i learning too slowly for this to go anywhere
2024-02-13 17:39:14 +0000 <mauke> types and class instances live their own, separate lives
2024-02-13 17:39:36 +0000 <mauke> (in particular, Num is not stored "inside" of Int)
2024-02-13 17:40:15 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> understood, but Int is "associated to" Num
2024-02-13 17:40:20 +0000 <johnw> segfaultfizzbuzz: I wouldn't think about the "How" so much as the "What" at this point
2024-02-13 17:40:38 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ananyway, maybe i am just making a mess out of things
2024-02-13 17:40:55 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> the dumb interpretation here is that forM_ can glue one IO () onto another IO ()
2024-02-13 17:41:00 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and that putStrLn generates IO ()
2024-02-13 17:41:17 +0000 <mauke> that's not wrong
2024-02-13 17:41:26 +0000 <johnw> putStrLn is a function from strings to an value of type IO () that the runtime can interpret in such a way that it prints the string
2024-02-13 17:41:39 +0000 <mauke> the fundamental gluing operation is (>>)
2024-02-13 17:41:46 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> it would be a little nice to have a simple example of what could be inside of () in IO ()
2024-02-13 17:41:55 +0000 <mauke> any type at all, really
2024-02-13 17:41:56 +0000 <ncf> :t getChar
2024-02-13 17:41:57 +0000 <lambdabot> IO Char
2024-02-13 17:42:11 +0000 <mauke> () is just a convenient dummy type
2024-02-13 17:42:24 +0000 <mauke> (the () type has a single value, also called ())
2024-02-13 17:42:31 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so then IO Char becomes what, a monad whose value depends on the value of the Char? does that behave like a function, kinda like a generic function...?
2024-02-13 17:43:01 +0000 <mauke> what programming languages are you familiar with?
2024-02-13 17:43:14 +0000 <mauke> in particular, do you know promises/futures?
2024-02-13 17:43:37 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i have probably used 30 programming languages over the years, these days i use rust when i need to do something
2024-02-13 17:43:50 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i have very limited exposure to futures/promises/async
2024-02-13 17:44:12 +0000 <mauke> aww
2024-02-13 17:44:22 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> but it is something i know i should gain some familiarity with
2024-02-13 17:44:28 +0000 <mauke> because you can think of IO Char as Promise<Char>
2024-02-13 17:44:28 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i know people complain about it mercilessly ;-)
2024-02-13 17:44:42 +0000 <mauke> i.e. some abstract box that promises to produce a Char at some point in the future
2024-02-13 17:44:51 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ok, a deferred/lazy function which generates a value of type Char then?
2024-02-13 17:45:11 +0000 <mauke> yes, except we don't call it a function because it is a (potentially) side-effecty operation
2024-02-13 17:45:23 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> that's fine, everything in haskell is nonstrict i understand
2024-02-13 17:45:27 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ohh i see
2024-02-13 17:45:27 +0000 <johnw> segfaultfizzbuzz: monads don't exist at runtime
2024-02-13 17:45:44 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so monad can translate to "side-effecty function" then
2024-02-13 17:45:50 +0000 <johnw> it's just an interface that abstracts a certain pattern of interaction
2024-02-13 17:45:57 +0000 <mauke> you could implement IO in a strict language
2024-02-13 17:46:10 +0000 <mauke> and this is just about IO, not monads in general
2024-02-13 17:46:56 +0000 <mauke> on the other hand, monads are all about effects if you're willing to be creative about what an "effect" is :-)
2024-02-13 17:47:01 +0000 <johnw> the "concept" of Monad lets you compose functions of type "a -> m b"
2024-02-13 17:47:15 +0000 <johnw> where, for the current discussion, m = IO
2024-02-13 17:47:42 +0000 <johnw> but thinking about this operationally is a going to trip you up
2024-02-13 17:47:54 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> haha i don't know what operationally means here lol
2024-02-13 17:47:59 +0000 <johnw> bits and bytes
2024-02-13 17:48:13 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ok, you mean "think math, not computers" then ?
2024-02-13 17:48:18 +0000 <johnw> Monads would make sense to a mathematician, IO wouldn't
2024-02-13 17:48:26 +0000 <johnw> yes
2024-02-13 17:48:32 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ok
2024-02-13 17:49:12 +0000 <mauke> I'd say IO can be understood entirely operationally. the general Monad interface ... well, that's another thing
2024-02-13 17:49:20 +0000 <johnw> right
2024-02-13 17:49:32 +0000 <johnw> I'd even say that IO can _only_ be understood operationally :)
2024-02-13 17:49:41 +0000 <johnw> because it's a huge jumble of C code with no formal specification
2024-02-13 17:49:54 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so the IO value is produced if (1) something demands it and (2) the Char is provided, but otherwise it is deferred, am i guessing?
2024-02-13 17:50:09 +0000 <mauke> that doesn't sound right
2024-02-13 17:50:10 +0000 <johnw> the fact that "IO" and "Monad" have wrapped fancy types and type classes around it, obscures the fact that it's mainly a black box
2024-02-13 17:50:12 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> lol you are making me feel very reassured about the reliability of haskell
2024-02-13 17:50:14 +0000 <mauke> IO is not about lazy evaluation
2024-02-13 17:50:35 +0000 <ncf> getChar asks the user for a character, so in this case the character is produced if and when the user feels like it
2024-02-13 17:50:53 +0000 <mauke> from the POV of the program, the Char is produced when the IO action is executed
2024-02-13 17:51:05 +0000 <mauke> which happens outside of Haskell proper
2024-02-13 17:51:37 +0000 <mauke> that is, you can't trigger execution from inside Haskell (and we don't talk about unsafePerformIO)
2024-02-13 17:51:58 +0000segfaultfizzbuzzfinished removing the pointfree notation here, feel free to criticize https://paste.rs/qkays.hs
2024-02-13 17:52:44 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ok, so only the haskell runtime makes your code execute
2024-02-13 17:53:00 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and the haskell runtime is invoked by your operating system or pushing buttons on your keyboard etc
2024-02-13 17:53:02 +0000 <johnw> appendMaybe isn't necessary, btw, but otherwise it looks fine
2024-02-13 17:53:34 +0000 <mauke> basically, your Haskell code creates little IO actions and glues them together into bigger IO actions, until you get one gigantic IO action that is bound to 'main'
2024-02-13 17:53:39 +0000 <mauke> and that's what the runtime actually executes
2024-02-13 17:53:55 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> makes sense-ish
2024-02-13 17:54:13 +0000 <johnw> segfaultfizzbuzz: https://gist.github.com/jwiegley/724abb87ba71dfed5a2c687e9cb1b245
2024-02-13 17:54:22 +0000 <johnw> there's another use of the Monad interface for you, this time for the Maybe monad
2024-02-13 17:54:25 +0000 <mauke> the runtime is imperative: it can do stuff, talk to the OS, etc
2024-02-13 17:54:35 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> "IO is not about lazy evaluation" "you can think of IO Char as Promise<Char>" these cannot both be true,... ?
2024-02-13 17:54:36 +0000 <mauke> and it can call into Haskell, which is pure
2024-02-13 17:54:58 +0000 <mauke> segfaultfizzbuzz: Promise<Char> exists in JavaScript, which is not a lazy language
2024-02-13 17:55:37 +0000 <mauke> (well, typescript probably. assuming it has a Char type)
2024-02-13 17:56:02 +0000 <kaol> Lazy evaluation is what makes "fst (1, undefined)" not explode (among other things).
2024-02-13 17:56:05 +0000segfaultfizzbuzzis wishing that javascript would go away as a language
2024-02-13 17:56:25 +0000 <mauke> my point is that you could imagine a non-lazy variant of Haskell, in which IO would work exactly the same way
2024-02-13 17:56:28 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> yeah i have a D- understanding of laziness i think, top and bottom and all that
2024-02-13 17:57:37 +0000 <mauke> % putChar 'a'
2024-02-13 17:57:37 +0000 <yahb2> a
2024-02-13 17:57:44 +0000 <johnw> you can think of laziness as meaning "you'll have a value when I need it, if I need it", rather than eagerness which is "compute the value as soon as you have the inputs"
2024-02-13 17:57:45 +0000 <mauke> % putChar 'a' >> putChar 'b'
2024-02-13 17:57:45 +0000 <yahb2> ab
2024-02-13 17:57:53 +0000 <mauke> % putChar 'a' >> putChar 'b' >> putChar 'c'
2024-02-13 17:57:53 +0000 <yahb2> abc
2024-02-13 17:58:03 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-71-193-181-0.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2024-02-13 17:58:15 +0000 <mauke> % sequence_ [putChar 'a', putChar 'b', putChar 'c']
2024-02-13 17:58:15 +0000 <yahb2> abc
2024-02-13 17:58:27 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> johnw: your rewritten version of my fizzbuzz has a "do" which i think is bad imperative codesmell?
2024-02-13 17:58:43 +0000 <mauke> % sequence_ (map putChar ['a', 'b', 'c'])
2024-02-13 17:58:43 +0000 <yahb2> abc
2024-02-13 17:58:52 +0000 <johnw> segfaultfizzbuzz: I'm not sure I'd say that
2024-02-13 17:59:02 +0000 <johnw> "do" is just syntactic sugar for interacting through the Monad interface
2024-02-13 18:00:09 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> what does the underscore mean in haskellspeak
2024-02-13 18:00:12 +0000 <mauke> johnw: that looks semantically wrong
2024-02-13 18:00:15 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i'm not fond of these punctuation characters
2024-02-13 18:00:36 +0000 <johnw> mauke: oh?
2024-02-13 18:00:57 +0000 <mauke> in this case, a trailing underscore indicates that the (intermediate) results are thrown away/ignored
2024-02-13 18:01:12 +0000alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3341-44af-80cf-6700-420f-0553.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-13 18:01:21 +0000 <johnw> oh, you are right
2024-02-13 18:01:29 +0000 <kaol> It's a proper part of those functions' names, it's not a special character in that. for_ and so on.
2024-02-13 18:01:44 +0000 <mauke> johnw: your code can only produce fizzbuzz, never fizz or buzz alone
2024-02-13 18:01:45 +0000 <johnw> segfaultfizzbuzz: my code only returns a string if they are both Just values, and Nothing if either is Nothing. This is wrong.
2024-02-13 18:02:01 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> understood,... i see, so most of what i do in imperativeland is "underscore-like" i gather
2024-02-13 18:02:09 +0000 <johnw> mauke: thank you for catching that!
2024-02-13 18:02:13 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> that is to say, i routinely call functions and discard their outputs
2024-02-13 18:02:37 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> johnw: lol did you fail to implement fizzbuzz correctly?
2024-02-13 18:02:39 +0000 <mauke> :t sequence
2024-02-13 18:02:40 +0000 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
2024-02-13 18:02:44 +0000 <johnw> I'd have to call my do block using: fromMaybe (show i) s <|> fizz i <|> buzz i
2024-02-13 18:02:51 +0000 <mauke> hah, what a type
2024-02-13 18:02:55 +0000 <johnw> segfaultfizzbuzz: I sure did
2024-02-13 18:03:05 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> johnw: 🤪
2024-02-13 18:03:08 +0000 <johnw> I'd have to call my do block using: fromMaybe (show i) (s <|> fizz i <|> buzz i)
2024-02-13 18:03:24 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> how many haskell programmers does it take to write fizzbuzz
2024-02-13 18:03:52 +0000 <mauke> :t sequence `asAppliedTo` []
2024-02-13 18:03:54 +0000 <lambdabot> Monad m => [m a] -> m [a]
2024-02-13 18:03:56 +0000 <mauke> :t sequence_ `asAppliedTo` []
2024-02-13 18:03:57 +0000 <lambdabot> Monad m => [m a] -> m ()
2024-02-13 18:04:02 +0000 <mauke> there we go
2024-02-13 18:04:08 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-13 18:04:35 +0000 <mauke> informally, sequence takes a list of actions and turns it into a single action (that produces a list of results)
2024-02-13 18:04:58 +0000 <mauke> sequence_ does the same thing, but instead of collecting the results in a list, it throws them away
2024-02-13 18:05:01 +0000Rhodon(~Thunderbi@user/Rhodon)
2024-02-13 18:06:57 +0000 <ncf> johnw: i don't think that works either?
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2024-02-13 18:07:28 +0000 <johnw> ncf: say more!
2024-02-13 18:08:03 +0000 <ncf> nvm i missed the definition of s
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2024-02-13 20:13:20 +0000 <tomsmeding> I tested my code with ghc-9.8 and because I'm using 'head', I got the -Wx-partial warning that's new in ghc-9.8
2024-02-13 20:13:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> but I didn't want to refactor this particular bit of code, so I added {-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wno-x-partial #-}
2024-02-13 20:13:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> which led to a -Wunrecognised-warning-flags on earlier ghc versions
2024-02-13 20:13:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> so I now have {-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wno-unrecognised-warning-flags -Wno-x-partial #-}
2024-02-13 20:14:01 +0000 <tomsmeding> which works everywhere
2024-02-13 20:14:05 +0000 <tomsmeding> ._.
2024-02-13 20:15:09 +0000 <Logio> you could add -Why-must-i-suffer to the list, then
2024-02-13 20:15:20 +0000 <tomsmeding> that is true!
2024-02-13 20:17:09 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> lol
2024-02-13 20:17:49 +0000waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-02-13 20:17:50 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> if i ever reach a point of becoming literate in haskell, i have a fantasy of making a new haskell with DX as a top priority
2024-02-13 20:18:37 +0000 <tomsmeding> I mean, an alternative would have been to conditionally add the flag globally to the package in the cabal file
2024-02-13 20:18:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> conditional on the ghc version, that is
2024-02-13 20:19:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> conditioning on the ghc version inside a source file would necessitate CPP and that's ugly
2024-02-13 20:21:58 +0000Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
2024-02-13 20:22:45 +0000 <tomsmeding> another infelicity of -fdefer-type-errors: if you have a 'deriving (Show)' on a data type with some non-Show field, you don't get 1 error but 6
2024-02-13 20:23:09 +0000dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net)
2024-02-13 20:23:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/sDhJ0WvA
2024-02-13 20:23:20 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.200) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-02-13 20:24:40 +0000 <tomsmeding> (meaning that HLS shows 6 errors on the offending line instead of 1, because HLS checks your code with -fdefer-type-errors)
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2024-02-13 20:29:39 +0000 <tomsmeding> segfaultfizzbuzz: you can get literate in haskell very quickly by using literate haskell
2024-02-13 20:30:02 +0000 <EvanR> *wears a shirt that says "GOT LITERATE?"*
2024-02-13 20:36:32 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> what?
2024-02-13 20:38:18 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> write my code in tex, are you crazy?
2024-02-13 20:38:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> :p
2024-02-13 20:38:43 +0000 <tomsmeding> it's _you_ who started talking about literacy ;)
2024-02-13 20:39:14 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i mean "understand the haskell language" not this tex abomination
2024-02-13 20:39:20 +0000 <tomsmeding> I know, I was just joking :p
2024-02-13 20:42:56 +0000 <monochrom> I don't think literate haskell implies tex.
2024-02-13 20:43:15 +0000 <monochrom> In fact, I put html instead of tex in my literate haskell code.
2024-02-13 20:43:54 +0000 <tomsmeding> daring
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2024-02-13 20:47:07 +0000 <ncf> i put agda in my markdown
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2024-02-13 21:02:41 +0000 <EvanR> tomsmeding, moreover, <BOLD>
2024-02-13 21:05:59 +0000 <tomsmeding> indeed
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2024-02-13 21:26:26 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> is there a way to write a computer program so that the world is a better place
2024-02-13 21:27:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> <s​m> ha. That used to be easier
2024-02-13 21:27:59 +0000willsewell(~willsewel@185.195.232.180)
2024-02-13 21:28:01 +0000tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-02-13 21:28:30 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> mkWorldBetter
2024-02-13 21:28:34 +0000tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-02-13 21:28:48 +0000 <ncf> :: IO a
2024-02-13 21:28:55 +0000 <tomsmeding> > succ GHC.Exts.RealWorld
2024-02-13 21:28:56 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2024-02-13 21:28:56 +0000 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘GHC.Exts.RealWorld’
2024-02-13 21:29:00 +0000 <tomsmeding> % succ GHC.Exts.RealWorld
2024-02-13 21:29:00 +0000 <yahb2> <interactive>:181:6: error: ; • Illegal term-level use of the type constructor ‘GHC.Prim.RealWorld’ ; • In the first argument of ‘succ’, namely ‘GHC.Prim.RealWorld’ ; In the expressio...
2024-02-13 21:29:05 +0000 <haskellbridge> <s​m> solve some real world problems without causing excessive costs and side effects over the long term
2024-02-13 21:30:36 +0000k_hachig(~k_hachig@ipagstaticip-b4f1257d-69a8-678e-1ff6-80999a2f9589.sdsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-13 21:31:57 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-001-010-233.176.1.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-13 21:32:51 +0000tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-13 21:34:03 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-001-010-233.176.1.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-02-13 21:36:23 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-13 21:36:30 +0000 <EvanR> making the world better or worse would require some side effect, so haskell's inappropriate
2024-02-13 21:43:08 +0000tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-02-13 21:45:02 +0000dispater-(~dispater@mail.brprice.uk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2024-02-13 21:46:51 +0000mud(~mud@user/kadoban)
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2024-02-13 22:04:08 +0000 <Axman6> @hoogle showHex
2024-02-13 22:04:08 +0000 <lambdabot> Numeric showHex :: (Integral a, Show a) => a -> ShowS
2024-02-13 22:04:08 +0000 <lambdabot> BasePrelude showHex :: (Integral a, Show a) => a -> ShowS
2024-02-13 22:04:08 +0000 <lambdabot> Number.Positional showHex :: Exponent -> T -> String
2024-02-13 22:08:53 +0000mechap(~mechap@user/mechap)
2024-02-13 22:11:05 +0000willsewell(~willsewel@141.98.252.232)
2024-02-13 22:11:11 +0000segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@2600:1702:6d0:e930:a854:aacf:c202:aba3) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-02-13 22:11:33 +0000dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net)
2024-02-13 22:11:45 +0000kadobanana(~mud@user/kadoban)
2024-02-13 22:12:23 +0000 <EvanR> > showHex (11 :: Word8) ""
2024-02-13 22:12:25 +0000 <lambdabot> "b"
2024-02-13 22:13:06 +0000mud(~mud@user/kadoban) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-13 22:16:19 +0000emad(~emad@156.214.178.69)
2024-02-13 22:18:12 +0000tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-02-13 22:23:59 +0000tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-02-13 22:25:06 +0000target_i(~target_i@217.175.14.39) (Quit: leaving)
2024-02-13 22:26:01 +0000 <Axman6> @hoogle Int# -> Word#
2024-02-13 22:26:02 +0000 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts int2Word# :: Int# -> Word#
2024-02-13 22:26:02 +0000 <lambdabot> GHC.Prim int2Word# :: Int# -> Word#
2024-02-13 22:26:02 +0000 <lambdabot> GHC.PrimopWrappers int2Word# :: Int# -> Word#
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2024-02-13 22:48:57 +0000zenna(~zenna@64.189.201.97) ()
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