IRCBrowse

2023/12/15

2023-12-15 00:01:45 +0100qeef(~qeef@138-169-143-94.cust.centrio.cz)
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2023-12-15 01:28:09 +0100Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
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2023-12-15 02:09:09 +0100thaumavorio(~thaumavor@thaumavor.io) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2023-12-15 02:10:04 +0100thaumavorio(~thaumavor@thaumavor.io)
2023-12-15 02:11:47 +0100bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:2083:a200:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
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2023-12-15 02:31:20 +0100jargon(~jargon@32.sub-174-238-226.myvzw.com)
2023-12-15 02:32:36 +0100 <sm> ha ha you joke but it's true
2023-12-15 02:33:11 +0100 <sm> don't forget to press the keys far enough down, and for the right length of time
2023-12-15 02:36:24 +0100sagax(~sagax_nb@user/sagax) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2023-12-15 02:36:54 +0100 <johnw> what about my hybrid-mechanical Topre switches?
2023-12-15 02:37:05 +0100 <johnw> it's all about capacitance
2023-12-15 02:37:12 +0100off^(~cd@c-98-242-74-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2023-12-15 02:38:06 +0100 <c_wraith> I'm sure they do some quantum too
2023-12-15 02:42:11 +0100 <duncan> Not all lambs enter text mechanically.
2023-12-15 02:42:30 +0100not_reserved(~not_reser@154.16.157.89)
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2023-12-15 03:14:43 +0100arahael_(~arahael@1.145.73.104) ()
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2023-12-15 03:59:42 +0100 <albet70> Module `Network.Wai.Handler.WarpTLS' does not export `certFile'
2023-12-15 03:59:55 +0100 <albet70> Module `Network.Wai.Handler.WarpTLS' does not export `keyFile'
2023-12-15 03:59:56 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2023-12-15 04:00:17 +0100 <albet70> help, I do not find certFile and keyFile on hackage
2023-12-15 04:00:40 +0100 <albet70> in Web/Scotty/TLS.hs:17:47: error:
2023-12-15 04:02:18 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
2023-12-15 04:02:19 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-12-15 04:04:51 +0100 <glguy> albet70: What are you doing that generates that error? What is the actual error? Can you put that stuff on a pastebin?
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2023-12-15 05:26:10 +0100 <albet70> glguy , https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0DWUhtax
2023-12-15 05:27:11 +0100 <glguy> albet70: that package doesn't bother listing the bounds of packages it supports because the author would rather you figured that out
2023-12-15 05:27:35 +0100 <glguy> so you'll need to just hunt back through old versions until you find one that works
2023-12-15 05:28:00 +0100 <glguy> scotty-tls doesn't give lower bounds, so that's probably a good place to start looking
2023-12-15 05:28:55 +0100 <glguy> does give*
2023-12-15 05:29:44 +0100 <glguy> this package was uploaded in 2015, so you might end up needing to use an older GHC from that time to get everything working together
2023-12-15 05:30:28 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-089-204-137-128.89.204.137.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-12-15 05:30:45 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2023-12-15 05:32:33 +0100 <albet70> I use the same GHC 8.8.4 on server and local, it's fine on server
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2023-12-15 06:13:04 +0100 <probie> albet70: Unless you _really_ need to do it in your Haskell program, I'd recommend outsourcing ssl termination to something like nginx
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2023-12-15 07:19:35 +0100 <albet70> it's the warp-tls problem, I have fix it
2023-12-15 07:19:46 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
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2023-12-15 10:02:06 +0100 <mauke> love getting spam mail from "Jonathan Haskel"
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2023-12-15 10:05:17 +0100 <mauke> heh. the matrix bridge is kinda broken with ACTIONs. instead of turning it into a matrix action, it makes the haskellbridge bridge bot say "* haskellbridge <mauke> wibbles"
2023-12-15 10:05:24 +0100 <mauke> why is it repeating its own name? :-D
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2023-12-15 10:07:44 +0100haskellbridge14<m​auke> wobbles
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2023-12-15 10:27:19 +0100 <dminuoso_> mauke: Perhaps for parity in IRC?
2023-12-15 10:27:26 +0100Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
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2023-12-15 10:57:16 +0100 <srk> hmm, if an old user can't migrate their old hackage account from basic auth, should they just contact support?
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2023-12-15 11:05:14 +0100 <albet70> is MVar efficent?
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2023-12-15 11:08:33 +0100 <dminuoso_> srk: Are you saying that Hackage in 2023 has moved away from HTTP Basic Authentication?
2023-12-15 11:09:17 +0100leungbk(~user@2603-8000-1201-2dd2-d9b7-e17d-8038-dc13.res6.spectrum.com)
2023-12-15 11:09:35 +0100 <srk> dminuoso_: seems like it! https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/1153#issuecomment-1370308832
2023-12-15 11:09:40 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 11:09:55 +0100 <srk> for legacy accounts whatever it means
2023-12-15 11:10:05 +0100 <srk> hmm, there's #hackage as well
2023-12-15 11:16:41 +0100 <srk> dminuoso_: I want to add 2FA to it https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/1265
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2023-12-15 11:17:12 +0100nate4(~nate@c-98-45-158-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-12-15 11:17:18 +0100 <dminuoso_> Hackage in a really strange state. :S
2023-12-15 11:17:29 +0100 <dminuoso_> The code base is old and strangely written.
2023-12-15 11:17:55 +0100 <srk> yeah, it is interesting! I like that it uses acid-state and plugins
2023-12-15 11:18:29 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@80.120.71.2) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-12-15 11:18:50 +0100 <dminuoso_> Recently Ive just bitten the bullet and accepted that Haskell is just not the ideal language for easy web development.
2023-12-15 11:19:04 +0100 <dminuoso_> And Im being very nice here.
2023-12-15 11:19:19 +0100 <danse-nr3> because there is no good javascript solution?
2023-12-15 11:20:02 +0100 <srk> recently I've stumbled on some mailicious package listed in Reverse dependencies that was removed from db but not everywhere it seems
2023-12-15 11:20:40 +0100 <srk> dminuoso_: https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/Haskell_webassembly_in_the_browser/
2023-12-15 11:20:49 +0100 <dminuoso_> danse-nr3: No, its just the only real solution for quickly prototyping stuff is yesod, which puts you in a world of quasiquoters, template haskell, opioninated stuff, etc..
2023-12-15 11:21:36 +0100 <srk> possibly IHP as well https://ihp.digitallyinduced.com/ (but no experience with that)
2023-12-15 11:21:39 +0100 <dminuoso_> srk: Sure, I mean my issue is not that its fundamentally impossible. Its just that there is no good ecosystem of easy-to-use, extensible web-related packages you can plug together.
2023-12-15 11:21:42 +0100 <srk> I've only used miso for frontend before
2023-12-15 11:21:55 +0100 <srk> indeed
2023-12-15 11:22:04 +0100 <srk> (purescript! :D)
2023-12-15 11:22:10 +0100nate4(~nate@c-98-45-158-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-12-15 11:22:15 +0100 <srk> but it's a very large investment
2023-12-15 11:22:30 +0100 <dminuoso_> The things you do have will toss a dependency closure of 127 packages at you.
2023-12-15 11:23:36 +0100 <srk> recently I've opted for javascript, npm, nix for fronted with just haskell backend. for implicitcad web editor https://editor.staging.48.io/
2023-12-15 11:24:08 +0100 <srk> because otherwise I would have to wrap d3.js and monaco via purescript or miso
2023-12-15 11:29:10 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-12-15 11:30:26 +0100 <danse-nr3> yeah, no good solution for the javascript problem yet, purescript and backends being my best bets. I have been told that web assembly is far from being a complete spec, while haskell-to-javascript moving out of GHCJS and into an embedded backend gives me some hope. Possibly stuff like miso will become more reliable with that. Yesod seems dead to me, it failed being haskell's django. Server side rendering is of less and less worth since ... almost 10
2023-12-15 11:30:26 +0100 <danse-nr3> years now? And yesod's concept of "batteries included" seems to be more "all ghc features included". But it was a brave attempt
2023-12-15 11:31:18 +0100bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b029:c7b:60a3:ae57:a8c4:7ffb) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-12-15 11:32:15 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 11:36:25 +0100 <srk> fun, I've never used yesod but persistent is great
2023-12-15 11:37:42 +0100 <hc> Indeed, persistent is great!
2023-12-15 11:38:02 +0100 <hc> And there's another library if you need more sql features but retain the type safety... cannot remember the name but it works together with persistent
2023-12-15 11:38:48 +0100 <srk> esqueleto?
2023-12-15 11:39:01 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-12-15 11:39:04 +0100 <hc> yes indeed
2023-12-15 11:40:09 +0100 <danse-nr3> this is a nice post about SQL solutions that appeared on haskell weekly some time ago dev.to/zelenya/series/24889
2023-12-15 11:40:28 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org)
2023-12-15 11:41:51 +0100 <Rembane> Lets make it clickable: https://dev.to/zelenya/series/24889
2023-12-15 11:42:31 +0100 <danse-nr3> it is clickable also without protocol for me on hexchat
2023-12-15 11:42:36 +0100 <dminuoso_> For me, Im just offloading everything into Django for web right not at $work
2023-12-15 11:42:45 +0100 <dminuoso_> But we dont care for SPA, so there's that.
2023-12-15 11:43:20 +0100 <danse-nr3> django is not great for client side logic, but it has sooo many other advantages...
2023-12-15 11:43:52 +0100 <dminuoso_> Its dead simple, very low complexity abstractions, but very extensible/hookable. And it comes with a rich ecosystem of utility things.
2023-12-15 11:43:56 +0100 <dminuoso_> And it has a near zero dependency footprint.
2023-12-15 11:44:06 +0100 <dminuoso_> That last bit is what sometimes really annoys me about Haskell.
2023-12-15 11:44:57 +0100 <dminuoso_> So many packages will drag 1/3 of hackage alongside, which introduces issues with updates, supply chain trust, portability, cross compilation, mere compile time, etc..
2023-12-15 11:45:21 +0100 <danse-nr3> its ecosystem is ridicolous, and it made some great design choices. That default interface you get ... is that called the admin app? You can model data while your clients fill it in
2023-12-15 11:45:27 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-12-15 11:45:34 +0100 <danse-nr3> *ridiculous
2023-12-15 11:45:46 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue)
2023-12-15 11:46:01 +0100 <srk> +!
2023-12-15 11:47:00 +0100 <dminuoso_> danse-nr3: Not quite, the admin app is rather a very simple CRUD interface that you can register models with.
2023-12-15 11:47:17 +0100 <dminuoso_> So it allows for some extremely rapid CRUD interface from a superadmin point of view.
2023-12-15 11:47:45 +0100 <danse-nr3> exactly. So you can model data while your clients browse that interface and play writing stuff in
2023-12-15 11:47:49 +0100 <dminuoso_> It certainly beats having to drop into psql to quickly manage data in ways you havent designed a user interface for
2023-12-15 11:48:21 +0100 <dminuoso_> The thing I just mainly like is that for the most part its abstraction fre.
2023-12-15 11:48:26 +0100 <dminuoso_> A view? Function that returns a HTTP resposne.
2023-12-15 11:48:29 +0100 <dminuoso_> It's very functional
2023-12-15 11:49:51 +0100 <dminuoso_> Django middleware? Exactly the same as a WAI middleware
2023-12-15 11:50:03 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-12-15 11:50:10 +0100 <danse-nr3> now something that seems promising to me is the new `mig` library, as it tries to limit abstractions. Too bad they picked such a painful name
2023-12-15 11:50:32 +0100 <dminuoso_> Which library is that?
2023-12-15 11:50:43 +0100 <danse-nr3> @hackage mig
2023-12-15 11:50:43 +0100 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mig
2023-12-15 11:50:58 +0100 <dminuoso_> Says lightweiht, first dependency aeson.
2023-12-15 11:51:03 +0100 <dminuoso_> :>
2023-12-15 11:51:08 +0100 <danse-nr3> it's early stage still
2023-12-15 11:51:28 +0100 <danse-nr3> not sure which direction will take
2023-12-15 11:51:37 +0100 <dminuoso_> But seriously, aeson is perhaps my most disliked package of all hackage.
2023-12-15 11:51:51 +0100 <danse-nr3> arguable statement
2023-12-15 11:51:56 +0100 <dminuoso_> The dependency list is getting so large, I nearly have to start scrolling.
2023-12-15 11:52:43 +0100 <dminuoso_> danse-nr3: Id be interested in how you can argue about what I dislike. :-P
2023-12-15 11:52:57 +0100 <danse-nr3> by overlooking the "my" :P
2023-12-15 11:53:26 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2023-12-15 11:55:14 +0100 <danse-nr3> meh persistent does not even have its own doc hackage.haskell.org/package/persistent-2.14.6.0#readme. With snoyman detaching from haskell, i wonder whether persistent will develop outside yesod well enough
2023-12-15 11:55:52 +0100 <dminuoso_> Huh, did I miss something? Snoyman is detaching from haskell?
2023-12-15 11:56:18 +0100 <danse-nr3> i got that impression but i am not very well informed
2023-12-15 11:56:49 +0100 <dminuoso_> Last I checked he was taking a year off for his kid.
2023-12-15 11:57:14 +0100 <dminuoso_> But at the end you raise a still relevant point. Much of hackage are in reality just one-man shows.
2023-12-15 11:57:37 +0100 <dminuoso_> While Haskellers tend to care much better for their packages on average it seems, the bus factor is still a considerable risk.
2023-12-15 11:58:29 +0100 <danse-nr3> when i went to mainstream into haskell, that was giving me panic. Any library i would like to use seemed super-fragile
2023-12-15 11:58:44 +0100 <danse-nr3> *from mainstream
2023-12-15 11:58:57 +0100 <dminuoso_> Honestly, the fragility of packages is much worse in other ecosystems.
2023-12-15 11:59:12 +0100 <srk> indeed
2023-12-15 11:59:17 +0100 <danse-nr3> different type of fragile so to speak
2023-12-15 11:59:44 +0100 <srk> danse-nr3: you can possibly co-maintain some to increase the bus factor
2023-12-15 12:00:02 +0100 <dminuoso_> danse-nr3: What I found interesting is how sometimes package maintainers build a really fancy facade in other ecosystems.
2023-12-15 12:00:56 +0100 <danse-nr3> that's why "all ghc features included" is a bad idea, unfortunately still popular srk. What do you mean dminuoso_?
2023-12-15 12:01:28 +0100 <dminuoso_> If you look at python fastapi, it looks all fancy and very actively developed. But in reality its hanging 600 pull requests behind, is maintained and written by one singular person, and the author has built a machinery that generates so many commits a day, that it looks really really active.
2023-12-15 12:01:53 +0100 <dminuoso_> But the community perceives the package to be in a good state. Objectively its really not.
2023-12-15 12:02:16 +0100 <int-e> dminuoso_: "lightweight" is meaningless. You can write a lot of Haskell code before you compete with the size of node.js for example :) (libnode.so is a 46MB shared object here...)
2023-12-15 12:02:17 +0100 <dminuoso_> The commit count facade is absurd.
2023-12-15 12:02:26 +0100 <danse-nr3> that's because the trend is for free software development to become a star system
2023-12-15 12:02:46 +0100 <dminuoso_> int-e: Oh I dont know that, aeson adds 46MiB of ELF symbols to my binary....
2023-12-15 12:02:52 +0100 <dminuoso_> :-)
2023-12-15 12:03:05 +0100 <int-e> that you can strip?
2023-12-15 12:03:19 +0100 <dminuoso_> If you remember to split sections, and are on Linux, and have luck..
2023-12-15 12:03:26 +0100 <int-e> (also emacs is a lightweight editor. 20 years ago it wasn't.)
2023-12-15 12:03:48 +0100 <Rembane> danse-nr3: A star system as in having many stars on GitHub?
2023-12-15 12:04:14 +0100 <danse-nr3> that is a clue about its design, yes
2023-12-15 12:04:15 +0100 <danse-nr3> which entails unfair resources distribution... something i think i found referred as the "Madonna effect", although i cannot find it on the web anymore. Basically madonna makes a lot of money, while most other singers starve
2023-12-15 12:04:20 +0100 <int-e> Anyway, my main point is that you need a reference for such claims, and here there is no obvious one. So it's just a fluffy marketing term.
2023-12-15 12:04:27 +0100 <int-e> "lightweight" that is
2023-12-15 12:10:44 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 12:12:24 +0100leungbk(~user@2603-8000-1201-2dd2-d9b7-e17d-8038-dc13.res6.spectrum.com) (ERC 5.6-git (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.50))
2023-12-15 12:16:29 +0100leungbk(~user@2603-8000-1201-2dd2-d9b7-e17d-8038-dc13.res6.spectrum.com)
2023-12-15 12:19:27 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-12-15 12:20:45 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 12:24:55 +0100waldo(~waldo@user/waldo)
2023-12-15 12:27:18 +0100troydm(~troydm@user/troydm) (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2023-12-15 12:27:57 +0100troydm(~troydm@user/troydm)
2023-12-15 12:29:52 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:2b7:6a00:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-12-15 12:30:12 +0100 <dminuoso_> int-e: Oh, everything is just fluffy marketing terms. :-P
2023-12-15 12:30:31 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-12-15 12:30:55 +0100 <danse-nr3> yeah and they can be useful to state intended design
2023-12-15 12:31:25 +0100 <dminuoso_> Though if megaparsec being industrial strength means I can run it on embedded controllers in a factory, that wouuld be funny
2023-12-15 12:31:26 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2023-12-15 12:32:41 +0100 <danse-nr3> it just means "serious enough for business/enterprise/buzzword"
2023-12-15 12:36:13 +0100trev(~trev@user/trev) (Quit: trev)
2023-12-15 12:36:17 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-12-15 12:36:44 +0100trev(~trev@user/trev)
2023-12-15 12:38:04 +0100alp__(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:597b:b8e2:b36e:d095) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-12-15 12:38:24 +0100 <albet70> why Map can not concat?
2023-12-15 12:38:44 +0100 <danse-nr3> %t :i Map
2023-12-15 12:38:51 +0100 <danse-nr3> huh
2023-12-15 12:38:55 +0100 <danse-nr3> % :i Map
2023-12-15 12:38:55 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: ‘Map’
2023-12-15 12:38:56 +0100 <albet70> fromList [(1,2)] <> fromList [(1,3)]
2023-12-15 12:39:24 +0100 <danse-nr3> % import Data.Map
2023-12-15 12:39:24 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-12-15 12:39:27 +0100 <danse-nr3> % :i Map
2023-12-15 12:39:27 +0100 <yahb2> type role Map nominal representational ; type Map :: * -> * -> * ; data Map k a ; = Data.Map.Internal.Bin {-# UNPACK #-}Data.Map.Internal.Size ; !k ; ...
2023-12-15 12:39:29 +0100waldo(~waldo@user/waldo) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-12-15 12:40:04 +0100 <danse-nr3> % :t concat
2023-12-15 12:40:04 +0100 <yahb2> concat :: Foldable t => t [a] -> [a]
2023-12-15 12:40:15 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4)
2023-12-15 12:40:33 +0100 <dminuoso_> What would concat even do for a map?
2023-12-15 12:40:34 +0100 <danse-nr3> is Map Foldable albet70?
2023-12-15 12:40:35 +0100waldo(~waldo@user/waldo)
2023-12-15 12:41:03 +0100 <albet70> I don't know
2023-12-15 12:41:04 +0100 <sshine> dminuoso_, megaparsec is only applicable for some types of welding.
2023-12-15 12:41:07 +0100 <dminuoso_> Or maybe I misunderstand. Do you expect `concat :: Map (Map k v) -> Map k v`?
2023-12-15 12:41:27 +0100 <albet70> I mean <>
2023-12-15 12:41:37 +0100 <danse-nr3> % :t (<>)
2023-12-15 12:41:37 +0100 <yahb2> (<>) :: Semigroup a => a -> a -> a
2023-12-15 12:41:43 +0100 <danse-nr3> is Map Semigroup?
2023-12-15 12:41:45 +0100 <dminuoso_> sshine: : Does that mean megaparsec needs a computer with 3 phase 230V power connection?
2023-12-15 12:41:49 +0100 <albet70> how to you pronounce <>?
2023-12-15 12:41:53 +0100 <albet70> ++
2023-12-15 12:41:56 +0100alp__(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:4149:1636:de08:3e29)
2023-12-15 12:41:58 +0100 <dminuoso_> albet70: mconcat
2023-12-15 12:42:32 +0100 <sshine> it's not mappend?
2023-12-15 12:42:34 +0100 <albet70> can Map do mconcat?
2023-12-15 12:42:35 +0100 <sshine> :t mappend
2023-12-15 12:42:36 +0100 <lambdabot> Monoid a => a -> a -> a
2023-12-15 12:42:58 +0100 <dminuoso_> albet70: check out merge :: Ord k => SimpleWhenMissing k a c -> SimpleWhenMissing k b c -> SimpleWhenMatched k a b c -> Map k a -> Map k b -> Map k c
2023-12-15 12:43:35 +0100 <albet70> what data is like dict in python?
2023-12-15 12:43:36 +0100 <dminuoso_> albet70: it needs to be a bit more complicated because there's no clear universal strategy by which to merge two maps that would satisfies everyones expectations.
2023-12-15 12:43:47 +0100m1dnight(~christoph@78-22-4-67.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2023-12-15 12:45:52 +0100 <albet70> wait a sec, tuple list like [(1,2)] can concat, but Map can not?
2023-12-15 12:46:25 +0100 <danse-nr3> what is unclear about what dminuoso_ just wrote?
2023-12-15 12:47:07 +0100 <albet70> Map is a monad?
2023-12-15 12:47:27 +0100 <danse-nr3> use `:i Map` in ghci to find out
2023-12-15 12:48:02 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org)
2023-12-15 12:52:43 +0100 <sshine> albet70, Data.HashMap is kind of like Python's dict.
2023-12-15 12:53:16 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-12-15 12:54:55 +0100 <__monty__> <> is mappend, yeah, not mconcat. Don't think the latter has an operator form?
2023-12-15 12:55:36 +0100 <sshine> a <(° °)︵> b
2023-12-15 12:56:01 +0100 <__monty__> I like it, let's put it in the Prelude.
2023-12-15 12:56:36 +0100 <sshine> {-# LANGUAGE KawaiiOperators #-}
2023-12-15 12:58:18 +0100dhil(~dhil@2001:8e0:2014:3100:cf69:c04f:eff8:3899) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-12-15 13:00:08 +0100alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3240-7f7a-60e7-da22-4b0d-67d6.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-12-15 13:00:28 +0100alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3240-7f7a-60e7-da22-4b0d-67d6.rev.sfr.net)
2023-12-15 13:01:17 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-12-15 13:04:13 +0100 <dminuoso_> :t mconcat
2023-12-15 13:04:14 +0100 <lambdabot> Monoid a => [a] -> a
2023-12-15 13:04:25 +0100 <dminuoso_> __monty__: The number of arguments would be a one reason why there is no operator form.
2023-12-15 13:04:39 +0100 <dminuoso_> (Sadly? Luckily?) we dont have the freedom of idris operators.
2023-12-15 13:05:27 +0100 <__monty__> You're right, unary minus is already enough of a thorn. Where's my (- x) operator slice?!
2023-12-15 13:05:32 +0100__monty__shakes his fist
2023-12-15 13:12:26 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2023-12-15 13:45:22 +0100dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-12-15 13:45:23 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2023-12-15 13:49:31 +0100dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2023-12-15 13:49:31 +0100dobblegodibblego
2023-12-15 13:54:18 +0100 <albet70> danse-nr3 , Map is not Monad? there's no instance of Monad
2023-12-15 13:55:12 +0100 <albet70> sshine , Data.HashMap does not come with ghc?
2023-12-15 13:55:55 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 13:56:43 +0100 <dminuoso_> albet70: Mmm, so containers is a boot library. That means a GHC installation will come with that package pre-installed.
2023-12-15 13:57:00 +0100waldo(~waldo@user/waldo) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-12-15 13:57:03 +0100 <dminuoso_> However, HashMap is not from `containers` but from `unordered-containers`
2023-12-15 13:57:16 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4)
2023-12-15 13:57:52 +0100waldo(~waldo@user/waldo)
2023-12-15 14:02:07 +0100waldo(~waldo@user/waldo) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-12-15 14:02:42 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2023-12-15 14:04:26 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org)
2023-12-15 14:06:39 +0100 <albet70> Map [String] ByteString is ok?
2023-12-15 14:09:31 +0100leungbk(~user@2603-8000-1201-2dd2-d9b7-e17d-8038-dc13.res6.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-12-15 14:09:35 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@80.120.71.2)
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2023-12-15 14:16:26 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.19.237.249)
2023-12-15 14:16:33 +0100alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3240-7f7a-60e7-da22-4b0d-67d6.rev.sfr.net)
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2023-12-15 14:27:26 +0100SanchayanMaity_(~Sanchayan@2401:4900:1cb9:30f1:e36f:ab71:5065:d69a)
2023-12-15 14:27:41 +0100SanchayanMaity_(~Sanchayan@2401:4900:1cb9:30f1:e36f:ab71:5065:d69a) (Client Quit)
2023-12-15 14:28:54 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net)
2023-12-15 14:29:44 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org)
2023-12-15 14:31:31 +0100zer0bitz_(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-12-15 14:33:41 +0100 <kuribas> dminuoso_: do you mean overloading of operators in idris?
2023-12-15 14:33:59 +0100 <dminuoso_> kuribas: Sorry I actually meant Agda.
2023-12-15 14:34:08 +0100 <kuribas> right
2023-12-15 14:34:45 +0100juri__(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 14:34:51 +0100 <dminuoso_> Its perhaps the coolest trick that `if_then_else_` is not a builtin magic syntactic construct, but a user definable function.
2023-12-15 14:37:11 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2023-12-15 14:40:39 +0100waldo(~waldo@user/waldo)
2023-12-15 14:43:28 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2023-12-15 14:43:35 +0100igemnace(~ian@user/igemnace)
2023-12-15 14:46:23 +0100 <albet70> is Chan better than MVar? I have two thread share one variable, one is read-only, one is write-only, which should I use? since there're lots of IO at the same time, which should I use?
2023-12-15 14:46:54 +0100 <dminuoso_> Is a screwdriver better than a hammer?
2023-12-15 14:47:01 +0100zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz)
2023-12-15 14:47:02 +0100 <dminuoso_> At some tasks certainly.
2023-12-15 14:49:45 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 14:49:45 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-12-15 14:50:44 +0100 <albet70> is MVar efficient? takeMVar and putMVar is enough when lots of IO at the same time?
2023-12-15 14:51:23 +0100 <dminuoso_> Profile your code and tell for yourself if its efficient enough.
2023-12-15 14:54:45 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org)
2023-12-15 14:56:01 +0100 <albet70> let c = aMap ! k; let a = g c; let b f c; is better than let a = g (aMap ! k); let b = f (aMap ! k); ? more efficient?
2023-12-15 14:59:46 +0100juri__(~juri@79.140.115.70)
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2023-12-15 15:05:35 +0100m1dnight(~christoph@78-22-2-15.access.telenet.be)
2023-12-15 15:05:53 +0100juri__(~juri@79.140.115.70) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-12-15 15:05:57 +0100oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-179-96.static.ip.netia.com.pl)
2023-12-15 15:07:40 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org)
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2023-12-15 15:11:50 +0100alp__(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:4149:1636:de08:3e29) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-12-15 15:12:06 +0100fed_kaczynski(~fed_kaczy@149.248.33.124)
2023-12-15 15:17:13 +0100juri_(~juri@implicitcad.org) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-12-15 15:18:29 +0100nate4(~nate@c-98-45-158-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-12-15 15:19:40 +0100shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.175.87)
2023-12-15 15:21:45 +0100 <albet70> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.7/docs/Data-Map-Strict.html#v:-60--62-
2023-12-15 15:21:57 +0100 <albet70> Map do have mappend, but why it's not like list?
2023-12-15 15:22:39 +0100 <albet70> Semigroup have sconcat function
2023-12-15 15:23:19 +0100nate4(~nate@c-98-45-158-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-12-15 15:24:40 +0100 <danse-nr3> % :t sconcat
2023-12-15 15:24:40 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:1: error: ; • Variable not in scope: sconcat ; • Perhaps you meant one of these: ; ‘mconcat’ (imported from Prelude), ‘concat’ (imported from Prelude)
2023-12-15 15:24:59 +0100 <danse-nr3> % :t mappend
2023-12-15 15:24:59 +0100 <yahb2> mappend :: Monoid a => a -> a -> a
2023-12-15 15:26:04 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-12-15 15:26:22 +0100 <danse-nr3> not sure i understand the "why it is not like list" question. Every instance is a different specialisation, following rules
2023-12-15 15:26:27 +0100 <albet70> semigroup need mappend, monoid need mempty and mappend
2023-12-15 15:27:14 +0100 <dminuoso_> albet70: For the same reason that an airplane moves differently from cars. Different things behave differently. Expecting (Map k) to behave like [] is like expecting a Car to behave like an Airplane.
2023-12-15 15:27:49 +0100 <danse-nr3> yet they do behave the same, for what the class definition is concerned
2023-12-15 15:27:58 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 15:30:38 +0100 <kuribas> I am doing some meta programming in Python using type annotations, but man, meta-programming in haskell or idris is so much easier.
2023-12-15 15:31:05 +0100 <kuribas> People who say Python is easy only know superfical python IMO.
2023-12-15 15:31:31 +0100 <kuribas> I think Python is easy because it just pushes complexity under the rug.
2023-12-15 15:31:59 +0100fed_kaczynski(~fed_kaczy@149.248.33.124) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-12-15 15:32:12 +0100 <kuribas> haskell and idris are difficult because they make you deal with it right away.
2023-12-15 15:33:04 +0100fed_kaczynski(~fed_kaczy@149.248.33.124)
2023-12-15 15:33:18 +0100 <danse-nr3> nah, python does a good job at avoiding unnecessary complexity, but is still object-oriented. Therefore people used to object-oriented dumbness find it easier than changing paradigm
2023-12-15 15:33:31 +0100 <[exa]> danse-nr3: did you read "The Zen of Python" ?
2023-12-15 15:33:43 +0100 <kuribas> danse-nr3: I am talking about necessary complexity.
2023-12-15 15:33:57 +0100 <[exa]> danse-nr3: (you can show it by `import this` in any python version afaik)
2023-12-15 15:33:57 +0100 <danse-nr3> huh i think so, long time ago [exa]
2023-12-15 15:34:18 +0100 <kuribas> But IMO Python has a lot of unnecessary complexity. Just look at pydantic for validation.
2023-12-15 15:35:14 +0100 <[exa]> danse-nr3: it's got this "explicit is better than implicit", which totally went up in smoke
2023-12-15 15:35:41 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-12-15 15:35:45 +0100 <[exa]> that alone is the biggest problem of python, people assume implicit-ness and hiding of complexity is OK
2023-12-15 15:35:54 +0100 <danse-nr3> *shrug*
2023-12-15 15:35:56 +0100 <[exa]> (instead of taming the complexity down using proper tools)
2023-12-15 15:36:09 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 15:36:14 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-12-15 15:36:42 +0100 <danse-nr3> go to java or c# or whatever you like then
2023-12-15 15:38:27 +0100 <[exa]> ah wait might have mishighlighted.. kuribas ^^ :D
2023-12-15 15:38:38 +0100 <albet70> what cabal take the package? I saw someone fix a patch on github, but the cabal still use the old package
2023-12-15 15:38:54 +0100 <albet70> where
2023-12-15 15:39:01 +0100 <[exa]> albet70: from hackage
2023-12-15 15:39:11 +0100fed_kaczynski(~fed_kaczy@149.248.33.124) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-12-15 15:39:18 +0100 <[exa]> albet70: https://hackage.haskell.org/
2023-12-15 15:39:45 +0100 <[exa]> albet70: but you can clone the package from github, put the path to it into your `cabal.project` config, and play with the fixed version from github
2023-12-15 15:40:03 +0100 <albet70> and do hacakge take from github? if the source is from github? and how long it will retrieve?
2023-12-15 15:40:19 +0100fed_kaczynski(~fed_kaczy@149.248.33.124)
2023-12-15 15:40:26 +0100 <[exa]> albet70: someone needs to manually versionbump and push it there
2023-12-15 15:40:31 +0100 <[exa]> usually the maintainer
2023-12-15 15:41:18 +0100 <[exa]> which package is it? (just curious)
2023-12-15 15:41:28 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-12-15 15:41:53 +0100juri_(~juri@79.140.115.70)
2023-12-15 15:41:56 +0100 <albet70> [exa] , scotty-tls
2023-12-15 15:42:42 +0100 <[exa]> ok that didn't get uploaded for quite some time
2023-12-15 15:43:58 +0100 <albet70> there's a patch for scotty-tls in 2020, since warps-tls removed certFile and keyFile, scotty-tls is patched on 2020, but cabal doesn't install the patched-version
2023-12-15 15:44:35 +0100 <danse-nr3> see the method [exa] mentioned above about installing your local checkout
2023-12-15 15:45:05 +0100 <dmj`> albet70: I merged it
2023-12-15 15:45:26 +0100 <[exa]> ah here we go. :]
2023-12-15 15:45:33 +0100 <danse-nr3> v
2023-12-15 15:45:40 +0100 <albet70> today I fixed it again, and suddently I found someone fixed it on 2020...
2023-12-15 15:46:51 +0100 <albet70> but cabal still install the un-patched version...
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2023-12-15 17:11:20 +0100 <carbolymer> is there a maybe wrapper `Biggest a` for `Ord a` things?
2023-12-15 17:12:11 +0100 <c_wraith> There's Data.Semigroup.Max
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2023-12-15 17:14:47 +0100 <carbolymer> `Max (Maybe a)` should be what I need, thanks c_wraith
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2023-12-15 17:46:04 +0100 <c_wraith> carbolymer: you might prefer `Maybe (Max a)`. I think it has the better Monoid instance.
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2023-12-15 18:36:40 +0100 <ephemient> certainly `Min (Maybe a)` likely doesn't have the behavior you want
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2023-12-15 19:11:27 +0100 <Joao003> Serious discussion: Do you chain functions like `putStrLn . show $ 1' or `putStrLn $ show $ 1'?
2023-12-15 19:11:51 +0100 <monochrom> I use f . g
2023-12-15 19:12:08 +0100 <monochrom> In fact, (f . g) x, screw $
2023-12-15 19:12:28 +0100 <Joao003> Nah, no brackets looks prettier
2023-12-15 19:12:40 +0100 <Joao003> I do f . g $ x
2023-12-15 19:12:55 +0100 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: Brackets look prettier.
2023-12-15 19:13:44 +0100 <Joao003> But sometimes they get too much nesting
2023-12-15 19:13:58 +0100 <monochrom> I don't always go "(f . g) x". I start with "f (g x)" and until I have like 4 functions instead of 2 I feel no need to split hair on this.
2023-12-15 19:14:50 +0100 <Joao003> Instead of f x = g . h $ x I do f = g . h, the so called eta-reduction
2023-12-15 19:15:05 +0100 <exarkun> by itself, `(f . g) x` and `f . g $ x` mean the same thing - but once you're in a bigger context, they don't necessarily
2023-12-15 19:15:11 +0100 <Joao003> Yes
2023-12-15 19:16:02 +0100 <Joao003> Brackets have max precedence while ($) has min precedence
2023-12-15 19:16:03 +0100Guest|21(~Guest|21@105.172.160.39)
2023-12-15 19:16:04 +0100 <exarkun> so I think eta reduction, $, and () are all fine sometimes (and use them all)
2023-12-15 19:16:19 +0100 <Joao003> Yes
2023-12-15 19:16:31 +0100 <exarkun> much to the annoyance of my learning-haskell-coworkers who wish there were exactly one way to do everything
2023-12-15 19:16:58 +0100 <exarkun> (and sometimes one way to do two things, too)
2023-12-15 19:17:13 +0100 <Joao003> Yesterday I learned: Some named functions (like `div`) actually have infix precedence and association
2023-12-15 19:19:14 +0100 <exarkun> (foo `isPrefixOf` bar) much nicer than (isPrefixOf foo bar) for many people
2023-12-15 19:19:21 +0100 <Joao003> yes
2023-12-15 19:19:26 +0100 <Joao003> and it makes more sense
2023-12-15 19:19:59 +0100nate4(~nate@c-98-45-158-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-12-15 19:20:39 +0100 <Joao003> @check \f x -> (==) (f $ x) $ id f x
2023-12-15 19:20:41 +0100 <lambdabot> +++ OK, passed 100 tests.
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2023-12-15 19:41:35 +0100 <monochrom> One way to do two things isn't bad. It drives unified theories and abstractions.
2023-12-15 19:41:54 +0100jespada(~jespada@cpc121308-nmal25-2-0-cust15.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
2023-12-15 19:41:56 +0100 <monochrom> But wanting that for mere syntax is superficial.
2023-12-15 19:45:31 +0100 <monochrom> Perhaps it's human greed. I want to get paid. And yet if there is one single way to do everything, I no longer have any responsibility.
2023-12-15 19:48:34 +0100 <EvanR> putStrLn (show 1)
2023-12-15 19:48:39 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2023-12-15 19:48:50 +0100 <EvanR> (ignoring print 1 for the sake of argument)
2023-12-15 19:49:45 +0100 <EvanR> in non throw away code I will sometimes factor out a . chain into its own function then apply it (or not) elsewhere
2023-12-15 19:50:23 +0100Yumemi_Yumemi
2023-12-15 19:51:54 +0100 <hc> What does wanting to get paid have to do with being greedy? I thought greedy was a property of the kleene star
2023-12-15 19:52:44 +0100 <EvanR> your code wants to get paid, so use $ syntax
2023-12-15 19:53:20 +0100 <idgaen> :D
2023-12-15 19:53:56 +0100 <monochrom> You need to read the whole sentence. The conjunction of getting paid and bearing zero responsibility.
2023-12-15 19:55:05 +0100 <monochrom> Compared to other people, programmers are surprisingly context-free.
2023-12-15 19:56:08 +0100 <int-e> what are you talking about
2023-12-15 19:56:41 +0100 <monochrom> haha
2023-12-15 19:57:13 +0100hcis even regular most of the time
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2023-12-15 20:04:50 +0100 <EvanR> in f . g . h $ x, oop brain might read this as x dot h dot g dot f, i.e. do dot h first. But this is haskell. So it actually says f . (g . (h $ x)), and applying caveman understanding of laziness, the f . ( is evaluated first. I wonder if this could be exploited to get the same results as oop without changing the order xD
2023-12-15 20:07:21 +0100 <monochrom> I think OOP people would be OK with "x & h & g & f" modulo s/&/./
2023-12-15 20:07:39 +0100 <EvanR> yeah that's not a dot at all
2023-12-15 20:07:55 +0100 <EvanR> period.
2023-12-15 20:08:19 +0100 <monochrom> But hey both & and . are user-definable library functions. One can simply load an alternative prelude.
2023-12-15 20:08:37 +0100 <d34df00d> I like my . to do string concatenation.
2023-12-15 20:08:39 +0100 <d34df00d> PHP FTW
2023-12-15 20:09:08 +0100 <exarkun> is there some good reason hlint tells me to use mapAndUnzipM when I use `unzip <$> mapM ...`? I see that mapAndUnzipM uses traverse, not mapM, and the implementation talks about fusion ... ?
2023-12-15 20:09:14 +0100 <monochrom> But haha on the pun on "period".
2023-12-15 20:10:17 +0100 <monochrom> Do you take "author of hlint likes it this way" as a reason? ("reason")
2023-12-15 20:10:41 +0100 <monochrom> Because it is an open secret that that's the real reason.
2023-12-15 20:10:49 +0100 <exarkun> It's a reason, yes, but not a good one :)
2023-12-15 20:10:56 +0100 <tomsmeding> there's a variety of lints in hlint that are basically subjective style
2023-12-15 20:10:57 +0100 <exarkun> I know a lot of hlints are like that.
2023-12-15 20:11:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> (also a number of hints that have separate good reasons behind them)
2023-12-15 20:11:19 +0100 <monochrom> It is just very confusing that 70% of his preference aligns with most of ours so it looks like rational rather than personal.
2023-12-15 20:11:51 +0100 <exarkun> I rewrote my expression to be `unzip <$> traverse ...` instead and it stopped bugging me. `mapAndUnzipM` seems like an obscure combination of things, I don't feel like using it.
2023-12-15 20:12:36 +0100 <monochrom> Related to how someone who consistently always lies is not untrustworthy (recall those crossroad sentinel logic puzzles). It is those who tell the truth 90% of the time and lie 10% of the time that are truly treacherous.
2023-12-15 20:14:04 +0100 <exarkun> Is someone working on a version of hlint that is either 100% wrong or 100% right then? :)
2023-12-15 20:14:22 +0100 <tomsmeding> you could write your own hints file
2023-12-15 20:14:26 +0100 <exarkun> true
2023-12-15 20:14:48 +0100tomsmedingis not sure how much of hlint's hints are specified in a separate file and how much is hard-coded
2023-12-15 20:15:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> I guess you can at least _disable_ any you don't like
2023-12-15 20:15:18 +0100 <[exa]> someone experienced with haskell-gi (aka the gtk bindings) ? I'm getting: `gobject-2.0>=2.32, not found in the pkg-config database` error on cabal configure, but my `kg-config gobject-2.0 --modversion` clearly says 2.78.0 ... any good place to start looking at/fixing?
2023-12-15 20:15:20 +0100tomsmedingdoesn't use hlint at all, it's one of the first things that gets disabled on a new machine with HLS
2023-12-15 20:15:33 +0100 <monochrom> Warning: You wrote f x. Why not (do y <- f; pure y) x.
2023-12-15 20:15:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> lol
2023-12-15 20:16:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> [exa]: have you tried 'cabal configure --verbose'?
2023-12-15 20:16:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh wait, pkg-config and cabal, that verbose output is going to be useless
2023-12-15 20:16:57 +0100 <tomsmeding> can someone fix the cabal solver to call pkg-config lazily already
2023-12-15 20:17:05 +0100 <tomsmeding> to hell with purity
2023-12-15 20:17:20 +0100 <[exa]> what's the problem there
2023-12-15 20:17:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> cabal first calls pkg-config --modversion with the entire database of packages (which takes, like, _seconds_)
2023-12-15 20:17:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> then pkg-config errors because there are a few packages on the system with missing dependencies
2023-12-15 20:17:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> so no output
2023-12-15 20:17:59 +0100 <tomsmeding> so then cabal invokes pkg-config once for each package on the system
2023-12-15 20:18:03 +0100 <tomsmeding> which takes some more seconds
2023-12-15 20:18:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> and then it actually starts doing cabal stuff
2023-12-15 20:18:12 +0100tomsmedingis annoyed
2023-12-15 20:19:37 +0100 <monochrom> I am sure the following is a joke but it sounds like if you just make a PR that merely adds an "unsafeInterleaveIO" somewhere, it will fix this issue. >:)
2023-12-15 20:19:53 +0100 <tomsmeding> [exa]: perhaps the cabal --verbose output does show the exact pkg-config invocation; something like 'pkg-config --modversion "gobject-2.0>=2.32"' is not valid pkg-config syntax but I'd see cabal doing that
2023-12-15 20:20:15 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: people have suggested that, but cabal maintainers aren't happy about introducing more impurity into the solver
2023-12-15 20:20:28 +0100 <tomsmeding> which, like, I get the point
2023-12-15 20:20:30 +0100 <[exa]> omigoood
2023-12-15 20:20:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> but ._.
2023-12-15 20:20:55 +0100 <[exa]> can we pls apply some minor pythons here
2023-12-15 20:20:58 +0100 <[exa]> and just ignore the error
2023-12-15 20:21:06 +0100 <tomsmeding> what's happening
2023-12-15 20:21:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> ?
2023-12-15 20:21:21 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh, pkg-config not printing anything if an error happens?
2023-12-15 20:21:30 +0100 <[exa]> yeah, I strac'd instead
2023-12-15 20:21:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> I mean, the point of invoking pkg-config is that you want all the packages that you ask for
2023-12-15 20:21:52 +0100 <tomsmeding> if some of them are broken, the idea is kind of that the call fails
2023-12-15 20:22:05 +0100 <tomsmeding> it's cabal that is weird in asking for ALL packages before it knows what it actually needs
2023-12-15 20:22:36 +0100 <[exa]> ok well at least it told me which .pc files to nuke :D
2023-12-15 20:22:51 +0100 <tomsmeding> be careful, they might belong to system packages
2023-12-15 20:22:52 +0100 <exarkun> why is it doing that? so that it can consult that single consistent (supposedly?) result ever after, instead of making repeated calls that might give different answers?
2023-12-15 20:22:58 +0100 <tomsmeding> yes
2023-12-15 20:23:34 +0100 <tomsmeding> but if you cache your unsafePerformIO pkg-config calls, you get the same consistency
2023-12-15 20:23:36 +0100 <exarkun> does anyone think the output of a single pkg-config invocation for multiple packages is self-consistent? or is the hope just that the window for the race condition is much smaller that way
2023-12-15 20:23:38 +0100 <tomsmeding> without the madness
2023-12-15 20:23:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2023-12-15 20:24:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> it's a good argument though
2023-12-15 20:24:08 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2023-12-15 20:24:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> against the current madness, that is
2023-12-15 20:24:52 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-182-113.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-12-15 20:25:11 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2023-12-15 20:25:18 +0100 <[exa]> like, on some certain systems with hyperactive package management I guess I can kinda understand it
2023-12-15 20:25:37 +0100 <[exa]> ok booom, there we go
2023-12-15 20:25:39 +0100 <[exa]> thanks all!
2023-12-15 20:25:52 +0100 <[exa]> the error was literally missing .pc dependency files
2023-12-15 20:26:02 +0100 <[exa]> I should probably report this to distro
2023-12-15 20:26:20 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2023-12-15 20:26:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> for gobject-2.0?
2023-12-15 20:26:54 +0100 <[exa]> no, for something entirely unrelated
2023-12-15 20:27:00 +0100 <[exa]> (xfce4ui-2)
2023-12-15 20:27:00 +0100 <tomsmeding> that should not trip up cabal
2023-12-15 20:27:13 +0100 <[exa]> yeah but it's a distro bug anyway
2023-12-15 20:27:14 +0100 <tomsmeding> it makes the big call fail, but then cabal falls back to package-per-package calls
2023-12-15 20:27:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> some of those failing is fine, cabal should not care about those and just consider those broken packages not existing
2023-12-15 20:27:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> so removing unrelated .pc files should not fix your issue
2023-12-15 20:27:49 +0100 <[exa]> it did
2023-12-15 20:27:55 +0100 <[exa]> (same as installing the missing ones)
2023-12-15 20:28:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> ... what cabal version is that? Did it do the package-by-package thing?
2023-12-15 20:28:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> my complaint is that cabal's approach to pkg-config is horrendously slow, not that it's incorrect
2023-12-15 20:28:33 +0100 <[exa]> btw the big pkgconfig call didn't fail (that works), just some of the smaller ones did
2023-12-15 20:29:02 +0100 <[exa]> cabal 3.8.1 btw
2023-12-15 20:29:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> weird?
2023-12-15 20:29:19 +0100 <tomsmeding> I have a permanently broken pkg-config database because arrch
2023-12-15 20:29:26 +0100tomsmedingis going to leave that typo in
2023-12-15 20:29:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> distro policy
2023-12-15 20:29:38 +0100 <tomsmeding> cabal works fine for me, it's just slow
2023-12-15 20:30:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> exarkun: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/8930#issuecomment-1744798180 and the message by andreabedini two down
2023-12-15 20:33:16 +0100 <exarkun> also really tempting to think about how expensive it would be to discover and parse all of the .pc files natively with haskell instead of calling pkg-config at all ... probably extremely cheap at runtime, and maybe periodically very expensive when you discover some bizarre quick of pkg-config that you forgot to support on some obscure platform
2023-12-15 20:33:26 +0100 <exarkun> s/quick/quirk/
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2023-12-15 20:34:56 +0100 <tomsmeding> cheap at runtime?
2023-12-15 20:35:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> I have 1525 .pc files
2023-12-15 20:35:19 +0100 <tomsmeding> pkg-config only takes a few seconds because this is an nvme drive
2023-12-15 20:35:53 +0100 <exarkun> I barely need three hands to count to 1525
2023-12-15 20:36:15 +0100 <monochrom> I have a feeling we are on the verge of a breakthrough that reinvents autoconf.
2023-12-15 20:36:22 +0100 <exarkun> :)
2023-12-15 20:38:00 +0100 <[exa]> c'mon no one is going to repeat m4 as EDSL, right [padmeface.gif]
2023-12-15 20:38:01 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-12-15 20:38:29 +0100 <tomsmeding> dnl no
2023-12-15 20:40:37 +0100Square2(~Square4@user/square)
2023-12-15 20:44:24 +0100 <monochrom> Haha I see why 3 hands for 1525. OTOH (pun!) it reminds me of an exercise in CLRS about randomized programming.
2023-12-15 20:45:42 +0100tomsmedingdoes not get the joke and is sad
2023-12-15 20:45:48 +0100 <monochrom> Fix an increase sequence of naturals but it must start with 0, e.g., A = [0, 2, 4, 15, 100, ...]
2023-12-15 20:46:30 +0100 <monochrom> OK 2 hands is only 10 bits, not enough for 1500ish. 3 hands is enough (and more).
2023-12-15 20:46:39 +0100 <exarkun> not _so_ funny :)
2023-12-15 20:46:56 +0100 <monochrom> And my pun? OTOHand...
2023-12-15 20:47:53 +0100 <monochrom> Continuing... Have a mutable variable initialized to 0.
2023-12-15 20:49:22 +0100 <monochrom> Have this procedure "increment": With probability 1/(A[current val + 1] - A[current val]), increase the variable by 1. (No change in the other case.)
2023-12-15 20:49:49 +0100qqq(~qqq@92.43.167.61)
2023-12-15 20:49:54 +0100 <monochrom> Theorem: After calling increment n times, E(A[final val]) = n.
2023-12-15 20:50:29 +0100 <tomsmeding> % let factor 1 = [] ; factor n = let d = head [k | k <- [2..n], n `mod` k == 0] in d : factor (n `div` d) in factor 1525
2023-12-15 20:50:29 +0100 <yahb2> [5,5,61]
2023-12-15 20:50:45 +0100 <monochrom> So the variables uses only a few bits to count up to a huge number but it's a probabilistic estimation.
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