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2023/10/30

2023-10-30 00:00:50 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@46.96.15.94) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-10-30 00:33:28 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-10-30 00:46:59 +0100tremon(~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in)
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2023-10-30 00:51:50 +0100sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm)
2023-10-30 00:52:49 +0100 <duncan> hledger is one of the flagship haskell programs, probably only pandoc and xmonad are more popular.
2023-10-30 00:56:26 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
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2023-10-30 01:01:54 +0100hgolden(~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-1ee4-1b7c-94a7-8fa7.res6.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 01:02:14 +0100hgolden(~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-a6e3-3ba3-0107-8cff.res6.spectrum.com)
2023-10-30 01:08:50 +0100 <Axman6> I wonder how hard it would be to come up with a type safe grammar for roman numerals; could be a fun homework question (ping monodoom, who I assume is monochrom)
2023-10-30 01:10:05 +0100newsham(~newsham@2603-800c-2c01-6825-f9e2-582c-c4dd-25f5.res6.spectrum.com)
2023-10-30 01:10:32 +0100Xe(~cadey@perl/impostor/xe) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.2)
2023-10-30 01:11:02 +0100 <newsham> hello haskell.  I was wondering if the Pan image manipulation library is stilled maintained and works in modern haskell, or if there are any more recent libraries with a similar approach and philosophy that are maintained and working for modern haskell.
2023-10-30 01:13:31 +0100 <EvanR> Axman6, is IIII allowed?
2023-10-30 01:14:59 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-10-30 01:17:36 +0100falafel_(~falafel@62.175.113.194.dyn.user.ono.com)
2023-10-30 01:21:13 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 01:23:35 +0100 <TMA> Axman6: remember that the original Romans used numbers like XIIX for 18 (the words are "duo de viginti" which means "two off twenty" i.e. 20-2)
2023-10-30 01:25:24 +0100Xe(~cadey@perl/impostor/xe)
2023-10-30 01:26:03 +0100 <TMA> Axman6: but IIX was not permissible for 8. Sometimes they even mixed the subtraction and addition: XLIIII for 44
2023-10-30 01:29:47 +0100 <EvanR> data N = I | V | X | L, type RN = Bag N
2023-10-30 01:30:53 +0100dyniec(~dyniec@mail.dybiec.info) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.2)
2023-10-30 01:31:33 +0100 <geekosaur> what about C, D, M?
2023-10-30 01:31:56 +0100 <EvanR> those too
2023-10-30 01:32:59 +0100 <newsham> are you defining operations over that N datatype?
2023-10-30 01:35:05 +0100notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 01:36:05 +0100 <TMA> what about | Ↄ Φ Ψ ↀ ↁ ↂ ↈ ↇ ...?
2023-10-30 01:36:41 +0100 <TMA> and ↆ and ↅ ... :)
2023-10-30 01:42:05 +0100 <EvanR> might as well
2023-10-30 01:43:54 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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2023-10-30 01:58:41 +0100Xe(~cadey@perl/impostor/xe) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 01:59:43 +0100 <yin> are Maps subject to fusion?
2023-10-30 02:00:57 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8059:24c1:b008:c079) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 02:04:32 +0100Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2023-10-30 02:13:15 +0100 <geekosaur> how would that work?
2023-10-30 02:13:59 +0100santiagopim(~user@90.167.66.131) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2023-10-30 02:19:19 +0100 <EvanR> fromList [('a',1),('b',2)] `union` fromList [('b',2),('c',3)] = fromList [('a',1),('b',2),('c',3)] ?
2023-10-30 02:19:49 +0100 <EvanR> fromList xs `union` fromList ys = fromList (xs ++ ys) ?
2023-10-30 02:19:50 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2023-10-30 02:21:34 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@ai101218.d.east.v6connect.net)
2023-10-30 02:28:01 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2023-10-30 02:33:01 +0100arahael(~arahael@119-18-2-212.771202.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2023-10-30 02:34:04 +0100 <Axman6> EvanR: No, absolutely not =)
2023-10-30 02:34:20 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8059:24c1:b008:c079)
2023-10-30 02:34:51 +0100 <EvanR> philistines!
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2023-10-30 02:55:11 +0100emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: au revoir)
2023-10-30 02:55:24 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2023-10-30 03:01:58 +0100Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 03:02:20 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8059:24c1:b008:c079) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-10-30 03:25:18 +0100Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250)
2023-10-30 03:26:32 +0100 <monodoom> % Data.Map.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)] `Data.Map.union` Data.Map.fromList [('b',20),('c',3)]
2023-10-30 03:26:33 +0100 <yahb2> fromList [('a',1),('b',2),('c',3)]
2023-10-30 03:26:42 +0100 <monodoom> % Data.Map.fromList [('a',1),('b',2),('b',20),('c',3)]
2023-10-30 03:26:43 +0100 <yahb2> fromList [('a',1),('b',20),('c',3)]
2023-10-30 03:26:48 +0100 <monodoom> Unfortunately. :)
2023-10-30 03:29:08 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 03:32:34 +0100otto_s(~user@p5de2ff12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2023-10-30 03:33:36 +0100otto_s(~user@p5de2f5cb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-10-30 03:35:07 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 03:37:27 +0100newsham(~newsham@2603-800c-2c01-6825-f9e2-582c-c4dd-25f5.res6.spectrum.com) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-10-30 03:44:05 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 03:44:44 +0100notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2023-10-30 03:47:47 +0100 <jackdk> would also be nice if we had `instance (Ord k, Semigroup v) => Monoid (Map k v)`, but alas.
2023-10-30 03:48:06 +0100 <jackdk> I know that `monoidal-containers` exists, but I don't always want to pull in `lens` just to have that instance.
2023-10-30 03:52:17 +0100ubert1(~Thunderbi@91.141.78.143.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2023-10-30 03:53:07 +0100foul_owl(~kerry@157.97.134.166) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 03:53:51 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@178.115.74.249.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 03:53:51 +0100ubert1ubert
2023-10-30 03:55:02 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@250.79-105-213.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk)
2023-10-30 03:55:11 +0100 <Guest7> howdy
2023-10-30 03:55:16 +0100 <geekosaur> hi
2023-10-30 03:55:23 +0100 <Guest7> im disgruntled!
2023-10-30 03:55:28 +0100 <Guest7> about build systems
2023-10-30 03:55:43 +0100 <Guest7> i cant get openCV to install
2023-10-30 03:56:14 +0100 <Guest7> i had similar problems with various other C ports
2023-10-30 03:56:23 +0100 <Guest7> i would like to understand an approach to this
2023-10-30 03:56:40 +0100 <Guest7> do we eventually write everything in pure haskell, just to get reproducable builds?
2023-10-30 03:57:16 +0100 <Guest7> is there another tool, in the realm of build chain tools, that could be applied to this issue?
2023-10-30 03:57:17 +0100 <geekosaur> rewriting every C library in Haskell would be a massive amount of effort and a lot of duplicated work, so we bind to C libraries a lot
2023-10-30 03:57:51 +0100 <Guest7> it places a fault in an otherwise robust build chain
2023-10-30 03:57:52 +0100 <geekosaur> if you mean "something that will figure out my system's native package tool and do the work for me", good luck. there are too many different possibilities
2023-10-30 03:58:32 +0100 <Guest7> idk, what to suggest, my brain vaguely conjours something like nix or stack but with the C libs also
2023-10-30 03:58:52 +0100 <geekosaur> google has the resources to do that with go. nobody else does
2023-10-30 03:58:58 +0100 <Guest7> even hackage is buggy with versions, like why stack in the first place
2023-10-30 03:59:13 +0100 <Guest7> with go?
2023-10-30 03:59:17 +0100 <geekosaur> stack is pretty much obsolete, and the fault was never with hackage
2023-10-30 03:59:29 +0100 <Guest7> go as a high level build system?
2023-10-30 03:59:42 +0100 <geekosaur> golang uses all-golang dependencies, because google can afford to duplicate work
2023-10-30 04:00:04 +0100 <Guest7> hackage had some ghc versioning mismatch issue, stack was supposed to get the correct ghc to avoid backwards dependency issues, iiuc
2023-10-30 04:00:18 +0100 <geekosaur> you understand wrong
2023-10-30 04:00:23 +0100 <Guest7> derp, nvm
2023-10-30 04:00:45 +0100 <Guest7> yeah, tbh i never really understood stack, what about nix though, actual snapshots seem robust
2023-10-30 04:00:59 +0100 <geekosaur> packages which have specific dependencies on haskell's base library must be built with the ghc version that includes that version of base
2023-10-30 04:01:15 +0100 <geekosaur> stack sorts this for you as part of a resolver, but then you need to know which resolver to use
2023-10-30 04:01:45 +0100 <geekosaur> \cabal leaves it to you to install the appropriate ghc, but then does the rest. with ghcup this isn't usually a problem
2023-10-30 04:01:58 +0100 <Guest7> well, if you know how
2023-10-30 04:02:14 +0100 <Guest7> i could just about manage to get stack to work, and then it just fell off the face of the earth!
2023-10-30 04:02:22 +0100 <geekosaur> stack exists because early versions of cabal could cause complicated dependency issues (diamond dependencies). that was fixed long ago
2023-10-30 04:02:37 +0100 <geekosaur> hm? stack's still there
2023-10-30 04:03:14 +0100 <Guest7> nix seemed really robust though, and from what i understand about its completeness as a language, it looked like, idk how youd say it, like, a good external language in which builds could be expressed using a functional paradigm (right?)
2023-10-30 04:03:42 +0100 <Guest7> ahh, so it was a solution to a problem that nolonger exists, fair enough
2023-10-30 04:03:46 +0100 <geekosaur> impure function and with a very high learning curve, but otherwise yes
2023-10-30 04:03:55 +0100 <geekosaur> *functional
2023-10-30 04:04:17 +0100 <jackdk> Nix does indeed solve that problem well, and the language is a servicable-but-somewhat-janky lazy ML-style language
2023-10-30 04:04:18 +0100 <Guest7> and then im missing the point to think this makes it a candidate for expressing a robust dependable build system including for C deps?
2023-10-30 04:04:37 +0100 <geekosaur> it's also got its own share of problems, like when you want to combine two different derivations that solve the same configuration issue in incompatible ways
2023-10-30 04:04:50 +0100 <Guest7> couldnt get backpack to work with nix
2023-10-30 04:05:13 +0100 <Guest7> talked about it with both comunities that deffered the issue to the other!
2023-10-30 04:05:14 +0100 <geekosaur> and then there's the isk space requirement
2023-10-30 04:05:16 +0100 <geekosaur> *disk
2023-10-30 04:05:41 +0100 <Guest7> iv seen openCV projects being built using makefiles!
2023-10-30 04:05:56 +0100 <Guest7> and various incomplete ports in different branches
2023-10-30 04:06:02 +0100 <Guest7> none of which are buildable
2023-10-30 04:06:14 +0100 <Guest7> or at least, not without some crazy unknown steps
2023-10-30 04:06:36 +0100 <Guest7> im thinking, like, what would a future solution to this actually look like
2023-10-30 04:06:47 +0100 <Guest7> and, is it even within the remit of the haskell comunity
2023-10-30 04:06:58 +0100 <Guest7> like, what happened to all the gnu, sort of thing
2023-10-30 04:07:20 +0100foul_owl(~kerry@174-21-66-189.tukw.qwest.net)
2023-10-30 04:07:21 +0100td_(~td@i53870907.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-30 04:07:29 +0100 <Guest7> it cant be, literally write pure ports
2023-10-30 04:07:44 +0100 <Guest7> but then, its, be stuck with highly unstable build systems
2023-10-30 04:08:46 +0100 <Guest7> "oh its unix, so you have to use pkg-config, oh all thosee packages nolonger exist, its broken"
2023-10-30 04:09:00 +0100td_(~td@i5387092F.versanet.de)
2023-10-30 04:10:09 +0100 <Guest7> and then like, even if the C libs install using apt-get, by the time its updated man-db then cabal just gives some crazy error like it cant access the pkg-config database correctly
2023-10-30 04:10:37 +0100 <Guest7> weird workarounds that involve manually creating files and placing them in obscure destinations in the linux filesystem
2023-10-30 04:10:52 +0100 <Guest7> which as a windows user is lie, this is starting to get frustratingly specialist
2023-10-30 04:10:59 +0100 <Guest7> might as well be arch by that point
2023-10-30 04:12:07 +0100 <Guest7> which leads me to suspect a solution might consist of simply a better approach to integrating cabal with pkg-config essentially
2023-10-30 04:12:34 +0100komikat(~akshitkr@218.185.248.66) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-10-30 04:12:41 +0100 <Guest7> im sure this must be a common issue too
2023-10-30 04:12:52 +0100 <monodoom> Oh arch? We've pretty much given up on arch.
2023-10-30 04:12:53 +0100 <Guest7> since that seems to be the accepted approach
2023-10-30 04:13:11 +0100 <Guest7> monodoom: id call it intermittent at best
2023-10-30 04:13:19 +0100finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-10-30 04:13:19 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
2023-10-30 04:13:19 +0100finn_elijaFinnElija
2023-10-30 04:13:45 +0100 <jackdk> I have never seen anything like you describe on well-behaved native packages which provide a .pc file
2023-10-30 04:14:06 +0100 <Guest7> i could probably reproduce the issue
2023-10-30 04:14:32 +0100 <jackdk> Which is not to say that your problem isn't real, but that we're probably looking at very different library bubbles. Is the root problem that opencv has a lot of research code in it, and research programmers are often not software engineers who are good at build systems?
2023-10-30 04:14:33 +0100 <Guest7> but it seems like this happens *every* time! so im not sure how you could not have encountered that!
2023-10-30 04:15:09 +0100 <Guest7> jackdk: probably could explain the use of makefiles! ill try and find a link hangon
2023-10-30 04:15:31 +0100 <Guest7> there was some fork that had them adjusting the focal distance of a webcam, ill see if i can find it hangon
2023-10-30 04:15:41 +0100 <Guest7> (proper driver level stuff i was after)
2023-10-30 04:15:55 +0100 <Guest7> kind of mimics openGL in that respect
2023-10-30 04:16:15 +0100 <Guest7> yes, i think actually its unfair to lump these driver containing packages in with "all C progs"
2023-10-30 04:16:32 +0100 <Guest7> pure ports to driver level C libs?
2023-10-30 04:16:34 +0100 <jackdk> These days I rely on Nix a lot, so I guess much of this stuff gets hidden by the hard work of nixpkgs people
2023-10-30 04:19:09 +0100[_](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 04:20:39 +0100 <Guest7> heres one
2023-10-30 04:20:40 +0100 <Guest7> https://github.com/sinelaw/HOpenCV/blob/master/demo/cannyVideo.hs
2023-10-30 04:21:13 +0100 <Guest7> heres tother
2023-10-30 04:21:15 +0100 <Guest7> https://github.com/acowley/HOpenCV/blob/master/src/Examples/VideoFunhouse/VideoFunhouse.hs
2023-10-30 04:21:42 +0100 <monodoom> I haven't used nix. I just use ubuntu. I am among the silent majority who have had none of those issues or even know what they are talking about. (What is "C port"?)
2023-10-30 04:21:58 +0100 <Guest7> jackdk: yeah i found some of the openCV work used nix, but i think the hopenCV are more obscure?
2023-10-30 04:22:42 +0100 <Guest7> monodoom: most things are written in C. haskell advocates to use the FFI to port these bindings
2023-10-30 04:22:59 +0100 <Guest7> porsts spring up but are not maintained, they get bitrotten
2023-10-30 04:23:15 +0100 <Guest7> haskell offers a build environment that is more robust
2023-10-30 04:23:33 +0100 <Guest7> but because these packages escape that realm, so they introduce a point of common failiure
2023-10-30 04:23:44 +0100 <Guest7> beyond the remit of the haskell comunity to engage in
2023-10-30 04:23:48 +0100 <monodoom> Huh "port" does not mean that.
2023-10-30 04:24:02 +0100 <Guest7> please excuse my ignorance
2023-10-30 04:24:24 +0100Lycurgus(~georg@user/Lycurgus)
2023-10-30 04:24:35 +0100 <Guest7> you "port" a C lib, pretty sure thats just the word for making it usable in haskell
2023-10-30 04:25:28 +0100 <Guest7> i mean, again, this is specifically for driver level stuff
2023-10-30 04:25:42 +0100 <Guest7> otherwise mostly we would just be using C for mallocation
2023-10-30 04:26:30 +0100 <jackdk> I don't think that's right. I read "port" as "rewrite all the functions in a different language, so that you can do equivalent work without FFI". I read "bind" as "write a bunch of `foreign import` declarations" or whatever so that the library can be called from a higher-level language"
2023-10-30 04:32:24 +0100lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com)
2023-10-30 04:32:24 +0100 <Inst> I'm just curious, though, where do you guys see Haskell in 5 years?
2023-10-30 04:32:30 +0100 <Inst> yandere
2023-10-30 04:32:36 +0100 <Inst> folks, excuse me
2023-10-30 04:33:00 +0100 <Inst> There doesn't seem to be a plan, and everything is ad hoc :(
2023-10-30 04:36:10 +0100 <monodoom> There was never a plan.
2023-10-30 04:36:55 +0100 <monodoom> Only capitalist corporations and communist regimes need those 5-year plans.
2023-10-30 04:37:18 +0100 <Guest7> and people dying
2023-10-30 04:37:43 +0100 <Guest7> haskell is built using a time machine, there is a huge paradox to do with what happens first
2023-10-30 04:38:06 +0100 <Guest7> youd wnt as many of the "eventual" developments to have been there the whole time
2023-10-30 04:38:24 +0100 <Guest7> like how i come on here and basically call for nix to be invented, which it already has
2023-10-30 04:39:26 +0100 <Guest7> ...
2023-10-30 04:39:37 +0100 <Guest7> my biggest call to arms is regarding levity recursion
2023-10-30 04:39:50 +0100 <Guest7> apparently haskell was designed buggy for some motivational reason
2023-10-30 04:40:23 +0100 <Guest7> while it supports graph expressions at top level, this is not straightforwardly mimicked at type level
2023-10-30 04:40:50 +0100 <Guest7> you basically want type level inference of the "complete" function expansion graph
2023-10-30 04:41:18 +0100 <Guest7> eg so that with an fpga, you could place fast circuits ahead of time, for commonly used patterns
2023-10-30 04:41:29 +0100 <Guest7> im not sure if this is called acceleration by static analysis
2023-10-30 04:42:04 +0100 <Guest7> but something to do with programs to express complex informationaful types that are shape indicating during compilation to enable acceleration... basically is what im getting at
2023-10-30 04:42:37 +0100 <Guest7> where then the discrepancy towards dynamic typing becomes the focus
2023-10-30 04:42:59 +0100 <Guest7> between type and value level. particularly the mechanisms of let and lambda binding in parsing
2023-10-30 04:43:41 +0100 <Guest7> there is some theory to do with how dereferencing and pattern matching essentially form some kind of turing completeness diagram
2023-10-30 04:44:01 +0100 <Guest7> so not having mature mechanisms for that at type level is "the deliberate error in haskell"
2023-10-30 04:44:08 +0100 <Guest7> id expect to see more work done around that
2023-10-30 04:45:03 +0100 <Guest7> ... and some caveat about terminating compilations being niche
2023-10-30 04:45:40 +0100 <Guest7> for the coends among us
2023-10-30 04:45:47 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-10-30 04:47:11 +0100 <Guest7> aka we await type level inline binding
2023-10-30 04:47:43 +0100 <Guest7> the reason i suspect this as a deliberate error, is that it indicates the fundamentals at the heart of the issue
2023-10-30 04:48:06 +0100 <Guest7> highlighting the importance of the expressibility of graphs via the ability to handle recursive definitions
2023-10-30 04:48:35 +0100 <Guest7> recursive datatypes obviously go some way towards this, but its more to do with top level syntax infact
2023-10-30 04:48:47 +0100 <Guest7> just about binding into scope
2023-10-30 04:49:21 +0100 <Guest7> and it being amazing how profound the (PRESUMABLY CATEGORICAL) formalism surrounding these scope issues actually are
2023-10-30 04:49:50 +0100 <Guest7> at the point where "everything you want is just pattern matching"
2023-10-30 04:50:04 +0100 <Guest7> and then, like, whats up with the type system!?
2023-10-30 04:50:14 +0100 <Guest7> i hope that makes sense!
2023-10-30 04:50:27 +0100 <Guest7> i cant really speak to the intricacies of the formalisation of what i just said
2023-10-30 04:50:39 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 04:51:12 +0100 <Guest7> something like "how pattern matching gives graphs and some far reaching completeness indications"
2023-10-30 04:51:20 +0100 <Guest7> somehow
2023-10-30 04:51:37 +0100 <Guest7> id love to see that properly developed by someone other than me within my lifetime
2023-10-30 04:52:30 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@250.79-105-213.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk) (Quit: Connection closed)
2023-10-30 04:59:40 +0100sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-10-30 05:00:14 +0100sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Client Quit)
2023-10-30 05:09:05 +0100 <Inst> ummm, okay
2023-10-30 05:38:26 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@46.96.15.94)
2023-10-30 05:41:27 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@250.79-105-213.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk)
2023-10-30 05:41:50 +0100aforemny_(~aforemny@i59F516F6.versanet.de)
2023-10-30 05:42:11 +0100 <Guest7> like, a while back everyone was on about dependent types
2023-10-30 05:42:21 +0100 <Guest7> what im saying is, that this is essentially a misnomer
2023-10-30 05:42:32 +0100 <Guest7> and what we actually want, is very close to what we already have
2023-10-30 05:42:41 +0100aforemny(~aforemny@i59F516D2.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 05:42:51 +0100 <Guest7> what we want is the ability to express recursive type level programs *not at TOP level*
2023-10-30 05:43:15 +0100 <Guest7> that basically, haskell is graphically complete at type level, but only using top level syntax
2023-10-30 05:43:33 +0100 <Guest7> the fact that this distinguishes it from value level syntax, is actually the only problem we have
2023-10-30 05:44:18 +0100 <Guest7> there is an idiom in which all type level programs that are expressable in haskell can have similar expressions for terms, but that by not using where, let, or lambda bindings, and constraining all expressions to top level, that this is a significant difference
2023-10-30 05:44:30 +0100 <Guest7> its basicaly just a syntax "sugar" issue
2023-10-30 05:44:40 +0100 <Guest7> but where these scoping considerations have profound ramifications
2023-10-30 05:44:41 +0100 <Inst> Guest7, it's a really long monologue, no?
2023-10-30 05:44:54 +0100 <Guest7> its a detraction, no?
2023-10-30 05:45:01 +0100 <Guest7> just talk to the issue
2023-10-30 05:45:06 +0100 <Guest7> please
2023-10-30 05:45:32 +0100 <Guest7> it would be wrong to discourage others that may be interested or that could assist
2023-10-30 05:45:35 +0100 <yandere> Inst: what's up?
2023-10-30 05:46:00 +0100johnw(~johnw@69.62.242.138) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2023-10-30 05:46:24 +0100 <Guest7> probably haskell has become too politicised to advance! :-D
2023-10-30 05:46:45 +0100Lycurgus(~georg@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: leaving)
2023-10-30 05:47:01 +0100 <Inst> just me wishing for Haskell Foundation to help set a sense of direction
2023-10-30 05:47:12 +0100 <Guest7> could anyone comment on the points i raise about scoping considerations regarding haskells near term objectives
2023-10-30 05:47:53 +0100 <Guest7> Inst: the fact they did this by leaving it essentially *broken* to draw attention to something *important*
2023-10-30 05:48:03 +0100 <monodoom> Nope.
2023-10-30 05:48:13 +0100 <Guest7> ?
2023-10-30 05:48:19 +0100 <Guest7> im i missing something here?
2023-10-30 05:48:46 +0100 <Guest7> its about dependent types being a misnomer surrounding type level scoping considerations
2023-10-30 05:48:57 +0100 <Guest7> like do you want it any more clearly expressed!?
2023-10-30 05:49:30 +0100 <Guest7> as far as i can tell this has been the principle misdirection in the development of functional programing in recent years
2023-10-30 05:49:59 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 05:50:21 +0100 <Guest7> as far as i can tell its as serious issue as idris is a mature language
2023-10-30 05:50:22 +0100 <Inst> monodoom: is the new name permanent?
2023-10-30 05:50:34 +0100 <monodoom> It's for Halloween.
2023-10-30 05:52:15 +0100 <Guest7> i should appologise slightly for my accusatory tone, basically im insisting that we were misled into producing AGDA, idris and COQ by considerations regarding halting, graphical completeness as isomorphic to turing completeness (turing tapes express a graph in a weird linearised way)
2023-10-30 05:53:02 +0100 <Guest7> and that the scoping considerations that would allow inline recursive definitions at type level should always have been our focus, since it was what was ommited to motivate those segways
2023-10-30 05:53:24 +0100 <Guest7> if the comunity cannot speak to these issues i am at a loss, which i resent as an imposition
2023-10-30 05:53:26 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
2023-10-30 05:55:52 +0100 <Guest7> im fielding a question regarding the 5 year plan for haskell, with a retrospective to the essentially sidelined efforts into dependently typed languages, that attempt to unify type and term level in a way other than simply facilitating recursive type level definitions in restricted scope, and indicating that this clearly motivates those
2023-10-30 05:55:52 +0100 <Guest7> developments be persued as part of the comunity effort
2023-10-30 05:56:09 +0100 <Guest7> if the comunity in response can only talk past the issues, then i think there is something wrong frankly
2023-10-30 06:02:15 +0100dibblegoremembers back in the day :)
2023-10-30 06:03:13 +0100Guest7guy
2023-10-30 06:04:54 +0100_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
2023-10-30 06:05:40 +0100guy(~Guest7@250.79-105-213.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk) (Quit: Connection closed)
2023-10-30 06:14:16 +0100szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2023-10-30 06:15:41 +0100komikat(~akshitkr@14.139.82.6)
2023-10-30 06:22:37 +0100komikat(~akshitkr@14.139.82.6) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-10-30 06:27:27 +0100 <haskellbridge> 08<t​ewuzij> What is that misdirection?
2023-10-30 06:29:51 +0100raym(~ray@user/raym) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 06:30:14 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 06:30:46 +0100raym(~ray@user/raym)
2023-10-30 06:31:54 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-10-30 06:42:13 +0100johnw(~johnw@69.62.242.138)
2023-10-30 06:47:25 +0100 <Inst> Where do I see Haskell in 5 years, though?
2023-10-30 06:47:58 +0100 <Inst> Tooling has become mature, certain tooling bases are highly maintainable and extensible, and error messages are at least comparable to Rust.
2023-10-30 06:48:32 +0100 <Inst> Ecosystem is pretty robust, and has a lot of libraries suited for quick hacking, alongside libraries built for building quality, maintainable code.
2023-10-30 06:48:52 +0100 <Inst> Haskell Foundation is pulling 5 million a year, and dependent types have been a thing for at least 12 months.
2023-10-30 06:49:29 +0100 <Inst> No one bothers posting "Haskell is dying", and the traditional correctness / math part of the community is healthy and not under siege by other parts, without pushing out the pragmatists either.
2023-10-30 06:50:03 +0100 <Inst> Size of the community is 2-3x current size, but growth has stalled awaiting community discussion as to whether further growth is worth it.
2023-10-30 06:51:02 +0100kmein(~weechat@user/kmein) (Quit: ciao kakao)
2023-10-30 06:51:31 +0100Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-10-30 06:53:05 +0100 <Inst> Also, my other bug-bear? maybe, 20-30% of the Haskell community identifies as female.
2023-10-30 06:53:22 +0100kmein(~weechat@user/kmein)
2023-10-30 06:55:28 +0100rosco(~rosco@yp-150-69.tm.net.my)
2023-10-30 06:56:50 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.193)
2023-10-30 07:10:07 +0100 <yin> which would be more efficient? IntMap String vs IntMap Text
2023-10-30 07:10:16 +0100 <yin> nope, sorry
2023-10-30 07:10:32 +0100 <yin> `Map String a` vs `Map Text a`
2023-10-30 07:14:13 +0100 <Inst> why would map string a be less efficient than map string text?
2023-10-30 07:15:31 +0100 <dolio> They're both probably not good.
2023-10-30 07:16:38 +0100 <Inst> data constructors are usually represented by an int, right?
2023-10-30 07:17:01 +0100 <Inst> i mean nullary data constructors
2023-10-30 07:18:18 +0100 <Inst> so in theory you can set up an EnumMap a type
2023-10-30 07:18:57 +0100 <c_wraith> not really.
2023-10-30 07:19:40 +0100 <Inst> ancient
2023-10-30 07:19:41 +0100 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/EnumMap
2023-10-30 07:19:43 +0100 <Inst> EnumMap a b
2023-10-30 07:19:51 +0100 <Inst> or rather EnumMap e a
2023-10-30 07:19:58 +0100 <Inst> where e is phantom
2023-10-30 07:21:31 +0100 <c_wraith> a portion of the object header is a tag indicating which constructor it is. But it's far less than word-size.
2023-10-30 07:21:52 +0100yoyofreeman(~yoyofreem@176.97.76.178) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 07:21:55 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk)
2023-10-30 07:22:26 +0100Jackneill(~Jackneill@20014C4E1E03D8009A782FCC230CDE67.dsl.pool.telekom.hu)
2023-10-30 07:22:33 +0100yoyofreeman(~yoyofreem@176.97.76.178)
2023-10-30 07:29:34 +0100chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a01:8f00:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1)
2023-10-30 07:35:00 +0100notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 07:35:20 +0100drjeff16(~drjeff16@user/K3nnethJ3fferson)
2023-10-30 07:36:03 +0100notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2023-10-30 07:37:13 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-10-30 07:37:54 +0100_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
2023-10-30 07:38:35 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 07:38:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@233-142-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2023-10-30 07:41:57 +0100drjeff16(~drjeff16@user/K3nnethJ3fferson) (Quit: drjeff16)
2023-10-30 07:42:27 +0100drjeff16(~drjeff16@user/K3nnethJ3fferson)
2023-10-30 07:42:47 +0100drjeff16(~drjeff16@user/K3nnethJ3fferson) ()
2023-10-30 07:43:46 +0100merijn(~merijn@233-142-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-30 07:45:02 +0100 <Inst> why
2023-10-30 07:45:03 +0100 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/tag/catgirls
2023-10-30 07:45:11 +0100 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/nekos-best
2023-10-30 07:48:30 +0100 <Inst> the only thing I have to say for it is that I like the library API and documentation
2023-10-30 07:55:02 +0100rosco(~rosco@yp-150-69.tm.net.my) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2023-10-30 07:57:20 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk)
2023-10-30 07:57:50 +0100dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 07:58:07 +0100dibblego(~dibblego@122-199-1-93.ip4.superloop.au)
2023-10-30 07:58:07 +0100dibblego(~dibblego@122-199-1-93.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host)
2023-10-30 07:58:07 +0100dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-10-30 08:00:04 +0100 <Inst> why is foldr in Data.List defined in terms of foldmap and appendo these days?
2023-10-30 08:01:01 +0100 <c_wraith> because Data.List is just re-exporting the Data.Foldable definition
2023-10-30 08:01:37 +0100 <c_wraith> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#foldr is the actual *list* implementation
2023-10-30 08:04:59 +0100myxos(~myxos@cpe-65-28-251-121.cinci.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 08:10:34 +0100sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-10-30 08:14:14 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> <g​eekosaur> stack is pretty much obsolete
2023-10-30 08:14:15 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> I disagree with this statement
2023-10-30 08:15:40 +0100random-jellyfish(~tiber@user/random-jellyfish)
2023-10-30 08:17:36 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-213-077.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-10-30 08:23:50 +0100kmein(~weechat@user/kmein) (Quit: ciao kakao)
2023-10-30 08:24:14 +0100coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl)
2023-10-30 08:26:14 +0100kmein(~weechat@user/kmein)
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2023-10-30 08:30:08 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937)
2023-10-30 08:34:16 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 08:34:16 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@46.96.15.94) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 08:36:06 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2023-10-30 08:38:05 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-10-30 08:41:24 +0100foul_owl(~kerry@157.97.134.164)
2023-10-30 08:42:35 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 08:45:37 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-10-30 08:46:42 +0100Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2023-10-30 08:48:47 +0100sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm)
2023-10-30 08:49:35 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2023-10-30 08:49:41 +0100danse-nr3(~francesco@151.47.111.180)
2023-10-30 08:51:33 +0100 <[exa]> EvanR: can you actually get a bogus numeral if you typecheck them numerals to satisfy (α→α)→(α→α) ?
2023-10-30 08:51:55 +0100 <[exa]> (note: in STLC they can't even diverge)
2023-10-30 08:54:19 +0100lg188(~lg188@82.18.98.230) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 08:54:41 +0100econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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2023-10-30 08:57:36 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72b9352f04aafa51ca2e735.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-10-30 08:58:10 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:901d:7f88:b261:d47d)
2023-10-30 08:59:19 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk)
2023-10-30 09:06:40 +0100danse-nr3(~francesco@151.47.111.180) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-10-30 09:18:43 +0100idgaen(~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c)
2023-10-30 09:20:57 +0100danse-nr3(~francesco@151.47.180.161)
2023-10-30 09:21:37 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2023-10-30 09:24:57 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk)
2023-10-30 09:32:43 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@2a02:2455:18da:6900:20bc:5fd6:4ad9:3eef) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2023-10-30 09:33:22 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-10-30 09:34:49 +0100derpyxdhs(~Thunderbi@user/derpyxdhs)
2023-10-30 09:38:52 +0100rosco(~rosco@yp-150-69.tm.net.my)
2023-10-30 09:39:40 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-10-30 09:42:00 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-213-077.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2023-10-30 09:44:31 +0100notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-30 09:45:01 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8059:24c1:b008:c079) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 09:47:41 +0100derpyxdhs(~Thunderbi@user/derpyxdhs) (Quit: derpyxdhs)
2023-10-30 09:49:30 +0100 <danse-nr3> does anybody know whether nested definition lists are supported by haddock?
2023-10-30 09:51:14 +0100 <danse-nr3> (also ... good morning ...)
2023-10-30 10:01:27 +0100 <danse-nr3> well nevermind i can do without
2023-10-30 10:10:31 +0100idgaen(~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5)
2023-10-30 10:10:54 +0100foul_owl(~kerry@157.97.134.164) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-10-30 10:10:57 +0100coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
2023-10-30 10:14:33 +0100chele(~chele@user/chele)
2023-10-30 10:19:10 +0100dhil(~dhil@2001:8e0:2014:3100:29e9:f20d:309:abc5)
2023-10-30 10:19:49 +0100faibistes_(~faibistes@128.red-95-124-145.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2023-10-30 10:20:01 +0100 <faibistes_> When installing on WSL, I'm getting ghcup: /home/faibistes/.ghcup/cache/ghcup-0.0.7.yaml.tmp: renameFile:renamePath:rename: does not exist (No such file or directory)
2023-10-30 10:20:12 +0100 <faibistes_> any clues?
2023-10-30 10:20:32 +0100eL_Bart0(eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-10-30 10:21:50 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8059:24c1:b008:c079)
2023-10-30 10:25:21 +0100faibistes_(~faibistes@128.red-95-124-145.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-30 10:25:28 +0100foul_owl(~kerry@185.216.231.179)
2023-10-30 10:27:13 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2023-10-30 10:27:41 +0100 <danse-nr3> nope. Which of those folders or files exist? Maybe some directory structure got corrupted
2023-10-30 10:28:53 +0100eL_Bart0(eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org)
2023-10-30 10:28:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> they're gone already :p
2023-10-30 10:29:31 +0100 <danse-nr3> oops
2023-10-30 10:29:50 +0100 <danse-nr3> thanks i had not noticed
2023-10-30 10:33:49 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51eptwiqkqzqtn9y.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2023-10-30 10:42:39 +0100coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl)
2023-10-30 10:59:58 +0100rosco(~rosco@yp-150-69.tm.net.my) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 11:01:43 +0100rosco(~rosco@193.138.218.161)
2023-10-30 11:07:26 +0100rosco(~rosco@193.138.218.161) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-10-30 11:08:48 +0100rosco(~rosco@yp-150-69.tm.net.my)
2023-10-30 11:10:06 +0100rosco(~rosco@yp-150-69.tm.net.my) (Client Quit)
2023-10-30 11:10:17 +0100rosco(~rosco@yp-150-69.tm.net.my)
2023-10-30 11:10:46 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51eptwiqkqzqtn9y.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 11:10:59 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51em0cnt4x942vo5.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2023-10-30 11:14:25 +0100 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> Sounds like curl is broken
2023-10-30 11:14:46 +0100 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> Download didn't succeed, but the exit codes don't indicate it
2023-10-30 11:15:13 +0100fendor(~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:4648:ee17:640e:e578)
2023-10-30 11:15:45 +0100 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> Try: curl https://raw.githubusercontent.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata/develop/ghcup-0.0.7.yaml
2023-10-30 11:15:55 +0100 <tomsmeding> maerwald: they're gone
2023-10-30 11:16:20 +0100 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> Such is life
2023-10-30 11:16:27 +0100 <tomsmeding> 'tis
2023-10-30 11:21:26 +0100Lycurgus(~georg@user/Lycurgus)
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2023-10-30 14:00:31 +0100gdr3941(~user@2600:1700:4770:3bc0:9d91:2119:734f:bda4) ()
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2023-10-30 15:41:54 +0100Guest5809(~Max@natwalu174-94.wi-fi.upv.es)
2023-10-30 15:41:57 +0100 <Guest5809> hello
2023-10-30 15:42:06 +0100 <Guest5809> How can i create a project with haskell?
2023-10-30 15:42:17 +0100 <Guest5809> like setting the environment
2023-10-30 15:45:19 +0100 <exarkun> That's a little vague. Can you be bit more specific?
2023-10-30 15:47:09 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> `stack new` or `cabal init` commands probably
2023-10-30 15:47:16 +0100 <danse-nr3_> it is a bit vague, but the main tools to start a project are cabal or stack, unless you mean an IDE project. If you are new to haskell, also make sure you are using ghcup, simplifies a lot of the management
2023-10-30 15:47:38 +0100 <ddellacosta> have you checked this out Guest5809 ? https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/steps/ May be helpful
2023-10-30 15:47:45 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-213-077.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 15:48:03 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2023-10-30 15:48:12 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-30 15:48:49 +0100 <Guest5809> Yea, Cabal is what i was thinking
2023-10-30 15:48:50 +0100 <Guest5809> thx
2023-10-30 15:49:27 +0100 <danse-nr3_> we need a `,next` here like in #emacs
2023-10-30 15:49:53 +0100 <ddellacosta> danse-nr3_: what does that do, automatically dump out helpful beginner resources or something?
2023-10-30 15:50:31 +0100 <danse-nr3_> nope it just prints something along the lines of "Another satisfied customer. Next!" :P
2023-10-30 15:50:37 +0100 <ddellacosta> oh haha
2023-10-30 15:53:03 +0100Guest5809(~Max@natwalu174-94.wi-fi.upv.es) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-30 15:57:54 +0100Lycurgus(~georg@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: leaving)
2023-10-30 16:01:13 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 16:02:11 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-213-077.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2023-10-30 16:03:00 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c738de.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.3)
2023-10-30 16:04:29 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c738de.dyn.optonline.net)
2023-10-30 16:04:44 +0100ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-30 16:06:42 +0100ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2023-10-30 16:07:06 +0100 <EvanR> what a giant polemic last night when everyone was asleep
2023-10-30 16:08:33 +0100 <geekosaur> we need more mods for when north america is asleep
2023-10-30 16:08:47 +0100 <geekosaur> candidates welcome in #haskell-ops
2023-10-30 16:09:00 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-10-30 16:09:04 +0100 <geekosaur> of course, the US is awake now which means any candidates are probably asleep 🙂
2023-10-30 16:09:40 +0100 <c_wraith> I object to being awake.
2023-10-30 16:09:48 +0100 <EvanR> me too
2023-10-30 16:09:52 +0100 <geekosaur> so do I, actually
2023-10-30 16:10:25 +0100 <EvanR> need a () -> ☕
2023-10-30 16:12:55 +0100mmhat(~mmh@2003:f1:c744:5e98:ee08:6bff:fe09:5315) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1)
2023-10-30 16:14:28 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-213-077.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2023-10-30 16:15:28 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-205-165.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
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2023-10-30 16:21:26 +0100son0p(~ff@181.136.122.143) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2023-10-30 16:21:32 +0100 <danse-nr3_> what was the polemic about?
2023-10-30 16:22:24 +0100 <danse-nr3_> going offline, but i will check the logs upon rejoining
2023-10-30 16:25:18 +0100 <EvanR> hard to say
2023-10-30 16:25:54 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-205-165.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-10-30 16:32:08 +0100elevenkb(elevenkb@thunix.net) (ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.1))
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2023-10-30 17:15:50 +0100ChanServ+o danse-nr3
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2023-10-30 19:02:37 +0100elevenkb(elevenkb@thunix.net) (ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.1))
2023-10-30 19:05:25 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2023-10-30 19:09:43 +0100Guest37(~Guest37@149.159.195.178)
2023-10-30 19:14:01 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2023-10-30 19:40:09 +0100Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2023-10-30 19:41:05 +0100danse-nr3(~francesco@151.47.219.142) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 19:46:49 +0100redmp(~redmp@lib-02-subnet-194.rdns.cenic.net)
2023-10-30 19:47:31 +0100CO2(CO2@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/co2)
2023-10-30 19:47:52 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-10-30 19:47:56 +0100 <redmp> What is the difference between mtl:Control.Monad.Error.Class and mtl:Control.Monad.Except these days? Is one recommended?
2023-10-30 19:48:26 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-10-30 19:48:26 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-10-30 19:48:26 +0100chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-10-30 19:49:30 +0100 <geekosaur> Control.Monad.Error.Class is the framework. it's not very useful by itself; you need one of mtl, mtl-tf, or an effects system to make use of it. Control.Monad.Error is mtl (and mtl-tf)
2023-10-30 19:49:47 +0100 <geekosaur> oh, Except. Error is deprecated, Except is preferred
2023-10-30 19:50:21 +0100 <geekosaur> mtl removed support for Error and I thought transformers removed it as well
2023-10-30 19:50:28 +0100 <monodoom> In this case you can pretty much look at the export list and see which one you need. But one of them is a superset.
2023-10-30 19:50:35 +0100falafel_(~falafel@62.175.113.194.dyn.user.ono.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 19:52:09 +0100 <redmp> iirc there used to be a deprecation warning at the top of the haddocks in one of the modules, but i don't see it anymore.. however, the readme does say .Error is deprecated, so I'll prefer .Except; thanks!
2023-10-30 19:54:43 +0100 <ski> importing `Control.Monad.Error' give a deprecation here
2023-10-30 19:57:10 +0100foul_owl(~kerry@185.216.231.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-10-30 19:58:25 +0100 <int-e> I still find that deprecation disingenious because `fail` behaves differently in those two monads.
2023-10-30 20:00:05 +0100 <int-e> (or monad transformers)
2023-10-30 20:00:52 +0100chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse)
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2023-10-30 20:01:57 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
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2023-10-30 20:05:05 +0100justachejustHaunted
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2023-10-30 20:06:43 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk)
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2023-10-30 20:10:15 +0100danza(~francesco@151.47.219.142)
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2023-10-30 20:11:26 +0100foul_owl(~kerry@185.216.231.181)
2023-10-30 20:14:06 +0100 <redmp> ski: so it does!
2023-10-30 20:16:50 +0100aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc)
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2023-10-30 20:17:27 +0100Guest37(~Guest37@149.159.195.178)
2023-10-30 20:22:31 +0100skiidly ponders `sameFringe :: Eq a => Tree a -> Tree a -> Bool'
2023-10-30 20:22:49 +0100aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 20:25:37 +0100 <ski> (specification, `sameFringe t0 t1 = toList t0 == toList t1'. using `data Tree a = Empty | Leaf a | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a)' (although that's not too important))
2023-10-30 20:27:03 +0100 <[exa]> (same-fringe? t1 t2) was more of a scheme call/cc problem no?
2023-10-30 20:27:20 +0100 <ski> it's in one continuation papers, using Scheme, yes
2023-10-30 20:27:30 +0100 <ski> s/one/one of the/
2023-10-30 20:27:42 +0100 <[exa]> kinda wondering where I saw that
2023-10-30 20:27:54 +0100 <ski> (i forgot which. could probably hunt it down, have a rough idea of where it may've been)
2023-10-30 20:28:11 +0100 <monodoom> In lieu of lazy evaluation, yes deliminted continuations are the next best option.
2023-10-30 20:28:19 +0100 <ski> i'm playing around with implementing it in terms of coroutines
2023-10-30 20:28:28 +0100 <ski> (using Haskell, yes)
2023-10-30 20:29:03 +0100 <[exa]> ah it was teach-yourself scheme
2023-10-30 20:29:07 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-10-30 20:29:14 +0100 <ski> (a la my implementation of `zipWith' in terms of two calls to `foldr' for traversing the lists (no other deconstruction of them))
2023-10-30 20:29:45 +0100 <ski> well, i didn't really read that one, so it must've come from elsewhere, prior to that
2023-10-30 20:29:53 +0100 <[exa]> likely
2023-10-30 20:30:54 +0100aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc)
2023-10-30 20:31:15 +0100 <ski> anyway .. solving it, without first transforming to those two intermediate lists isn't too hard. but i'd like to introduce no intermediate data structures at all
2023-10-30 20:31:44 +0100aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 20:32:14 +0100aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc)
2023-10-30 20:32:31 +0100 <EvanR> what is fringe, the leaves?
2023-10-30 20:32:37 +0100 <ski> yea
2023-10-30 20:32:44 +0100 <ski> the sequence of leaves
2023-10-30 20:34:01 +0100 <ski> (and it occured to me that this could be a good fit for the coroutine approach, to try it out on a different problem, see if it has to be adapted somewhat, or if one can learn something more)
2023-10-30 20:34:59 +0100aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 20:35:33 +0100 <Guest37> using coroutines will introduce an intermediate data structure, except the user won't have to explicitly do it.
2023-10-30 20:35:50 +0100 <Guest37> yes, coroutines are good for doing this
2023-10-30 20:36:01 +0100 <ski> technically, yes
2023-10-30 20:37:19 +0100 <ski> (when i said "intermediate data structures", i excluded functions)
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2023-10-30 20:38:08 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
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2023-10-30 20:46:09 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@82.14.199.136)
2023-10-30 20:51:09 +0100 <EvanR> convert the fringe in a church-encoded list? xD
2023-10-30 20:51:16 +0100 <EvanR> into
2023-10-30 20:53:34 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@149.102.244.104)
2023-10-30 20:54:52 +0100 <ski> kinda
2023-10-30 20:55:07 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2023-10-30 20:56:58 +0100 <Guest37> https://legacy.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/yield.pdf
2023-10-30 20:57:17 +0100 <Guest37> That paper discusses a solution to the same fringe problem using coroutines
2023-10-30 20:57:41 +0100 <Guest37> But they first build the coroutine machinery using continuations.
2023-10-30 20:57:43 +0100asivitz(uid178348@id-178348.tinside.irccloud.com)
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2023-10-30 20:58:57 +0100 <ski> hm, can't seem to find the paper, at a quick first stab
2023-10-30 20:59:21 +0100 <Guest37> link not working?
2023-10-30 20:59:44 +0100 <ski> ah, just noticed your link
2023-10-30 20:59:55 +0100 <ski> and no, i've definitely not read this one
2023-10-30 21:00:15 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@149.102.244.104) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-30 21:00:41 +0100 <ski> (there was no C#,Ruby,&c. in it, i'm sure)
2023-10-30 21:00:42 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.154.204)
2023-10-30 21:01:24 +0100 <Guest37> This one is done in haskell
2023-10-30 21:01:45 +0100 <ski> i was suspecting it may've been Thielecke or Filinski. or possibly Danvy (haven't checked yet)
2023-10-30 21:02:24 +0100 <ski> but it was years and years since i read it, too. more than fifteen, likely
2023-10-30 21:02:26 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.154.204) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-30 21:02:46 +0100 <ski> i was thinking librafry.readscheme.org might've had it, as well, but no luck
2023-10-30 21:02:48 +0100vglfr(vglfr@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/vglfr)
2023-10-30 21:03:00 +0100 <ski> s/librafry/library/
2023-10-30 21:03:37 +0100mud(~mud@user/kadoban)
2023-10-30 21:03:59 +0100 <ski> (i think i probably have a printout of it lying around .. somewhere)
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2023-10-30 21:32:04 +0100elevenkb(elevenkb@thunix.net)
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2023-10-30 21:35:58 +0100danza(~francesco@151.47.216.228)
2023-10-30 21:36:51 +0100 <EvanR> haskell is defined as non-strict, which supposedly leaves options open instead of dictating a particular evaluation order. In normal languages they also tend to not define their evaluation order. So are they necessarily strict?
2023-10-30 21:37:04 +0100dtman34(~dtman34@c-76-156-89-180.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-30 21:37:34 +0100Sciencentistguy1(~sciencent@hacksoc/ordinary-member)
2023-10-30 21:37:45 +0100 <EvanR> or are they defact "not non-strict"
2023-10-30 21:37:50 +0100 <EvanR> o
2023-10-30 21:40:01 +0100ski(~ski@88.131.7.247) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-10-30 21:40:19 +0100dtman34(~dtman34@c-76-156-89-180.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
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2023-10-30 21:40:38 +0100Sciencentistguy1Sciencentistguy
2023-10-30 21:40:45 +0100 <geekosaur> C has been tightening up its specification of evaluation order over the years iirc
2023-10-30 21:41:10 +0100Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn216.91-127-84.t-com.sk)
2023-10-30 21:48:22 +0100sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-10-30 21:48:36 +0100 <mauke> C has always been pretty restrictive when it comes to function calls
2023-10-30 21:49:06 +0100fweht(uid404746@id-404746.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-10-30 21:49:07 +0100aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 21:49:21 +0100 <EvanR> and you can't make restrictive without strict
2023-10-30 21:50:08 +0100 <mauke> f(g(h()), j()); has only 3 valid evaluation orders
2023-10-30 21:50:09 +0100aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc)
2023-10-30 21:50:43 +0100 <EvanR> j first, h first, and?
2023-10-30 21:51:15 +0100 <mauke> h, g, j, f; j, h, g, f; h, j, g, f
2023-10-30 21:52:34 +0100 <mauke> evaluation order is unspecified within the argument list of a function, but there are additional constraints: all arguments must be evaluated before a function body is entered; there is a sequence point before each call; and the execution of a function cannot overlap with other function calls (except for calls made from that function)
2023-10-30 21:52:47 +0100neceve(~neceve@user/neceve)
2023-10-30 21:53:04 +0100 <mauke> so a function has to run through all the way and return before its caller can do anything else
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2023-10-30 23:51:46 +0100 <EvanR> how to write tail using foldr and not pattern matching on list
2023-10-30 23:52:18 +0100 <EvanR> I got a way that goes through Int by subtracting one from length, terrible!
2023-10-30 23:54:35 +0100Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-30 23:55:28 +0100 <monodoom> There isn't a way faster than Ω(list length).
2023-10-30 23:55:50 +0100 <EvanR> smh
2023-10-30 23:56:14 +0100 <monodoom> But there is a way to eliminate that Int.
2023-10-30 23:56:54 +0100 <ncf> > let tail = snd . foldr (\x (xs, _) -> (x:xs, xs)) ([], []) in tail [1..5]
2023-10-30 23:56:55 +0100 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5]
2023-10-30 23:57:34 +0100 <ncf> or ([], error "tail: empty list")
2023-10-30 23:58:06 +0100 <EvanR> of course... so obvious now
2023-10-30 23:58:11 +0100 <monodoom> foldr (\x r -> case r of {Nothing -> Just []; Just xs -> Just (x:xs)}) Nothing
2023-10-30 23:58:17 +0100 <dolio> There might be a trick using weird types.
2023-10-30 23:58:31 +0100 <elevenkb> i wonder what are the most interesting papers on Haskell's cost semantics?
2023-10-30 23:58:52 +0100 <[Leary]> monodoom: Isn't that init?
2023-10-30 23:59:04 +0100 <monodoom> Oh oops.
2023-10-30 23:59:17 +0100 <ncf> safeTail = snd . foldr (\x (xs, _) -> (x:xs, Just xs)) ([], Nothing)