IRCBrowse

2023/10/12

2023-10-12 00:01:50 +0200leah2(~leah@vuxu.org) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2023-10-12 00:44:26 +0200Square(~Square@user/square)
2023-10-12 00:44:28 +0200 <Inst> ls
2023-10-12 00:44:38 +0200 <geekosaur> .
2023-10-12 00:44:48 +0200 <davean> ..
2023-10-12 00:44:51 +0200patrl(~patrl@user/patrl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-12 00:45:01 +0200 <Inst> typo, but this is now a dumb instinct i have whenever i find a text prompt
2023-10-12 00:45:05 +0200patrl(~patrl@user/patrl)
2023-10-12 00:45:07 +0200 <EvanR> after converting everything to lazy bytestring I went from 0.044ms to 0.083ms. Strict bytestring (in which case hGetContents just loads everything immediately), 0.034ms
2023-10-12 00:45:24 +0200 <EvanR> strictness for the win
2023-10-12 00:46:04 +0200 <davean> uh, you're likely missattributing that. lazy bytestrings are a different datastructure with different computational efficiencies
2023-10-12 00:46:28 +0200 <EvanR> yes not strictness, but strict bytestringness
2023-10-12 00:46:56 +0200 <davean> yah, lazy bytestring is a rather inefficient structure for what you get!
2023-10-12 00:47:19 +0200 <EvanR> I just realized the incongruous names of the two bytestrings
2023-10-12 00:47:30 +0200 <EvanR> strict vs eager, non-strict vs lazy
2023-10-12 00:48:23 +0200 <c_wraith> both terms *are* accurate
2023-10-12 00:48:28 +0200 <monochrom> We need to talk about Data.Map.Eager and Data.Map.Nonstrict. >:)
2023-10-12 00:48:37 +0200 <c_wraith> they're just not exactly a matched pair
2023-10-12 00:49:07 +0200 <monochrom> Data.Map.Do.It.Now
2023-10-12 00:49:10 +0200Guest48(~Guest2@85-147-192-197.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-10-12 00:49:12 +0200 <c_wraith> though I suppose Haskell as a language never guarantees laziness. that's up to GHC.
2023-10-12 00:49:25 +0200 <c_wraith> Haskell only guarantees non-strict properties.
2023-10-12 00:49:29 +0200Guest48(~Guest2@85-147-192-197.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Client Quit)
2023-10-12 00:49:52 +0200 <EvanR> must keep GHC well fed or it will become angry and turn all our lists strict and our bytestrings lazy
2023-10-12 00:49:55 +0200 <monochrom> Haha we just went through how little any standard doc guarantees anything at all a couple of hours ago.
2023-10-12 00:50:17 +0200 <dolio> It can't turn them strict, at least.
2023-10-12 00:50:25 +0200 <monochrom> I bet you no standard doc even guarantees that evaluating 1+1 even takes constant time or space.
2023-10-12 00:50:29 +0200 <c_wraith> the whole "unevaluated expressions are represented by thunks that memoize results after calculation" is a specific implementation choice.
2023-10-12 00:50:57 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah this is why I don't use the word "thunk" even when teaching lazy evaluation.
2023-10-12 00:51:12 +0200 <monochrom> "partly unevaluated expression" is just fine.
2023-10-12 00:51:21 +0200 <c_wraith> not even if you hit someone over the head for not paying attention?
2023-10-12 00:51:54 +0200 <EvanR> I still am kind of boggling that lazy bytestring is performing twice as slow as list of Char
2023-10-12 00:51:59 +0200 <c_wraith> I may be misremembering how college courses go.
2023-10-12 00:52:30 +0200 <c_wraith> EvanR: When you're seeing that result, there's a good chance list fusion played a part
2023-10-12 00:52:33 +0200 <monochrom> Oh my students don't pay attention during class. That's fine. They will after class, reviewing lecture slides and doing homework.
2023-10-12 00:52:55 +0200 <EvanR> list (+ fusion) for the win
2023-10-12 00:53:10 +0200 <geekosaur> EvanR, you're talking times that are short enough that I could imagine the extra indirection on all lazy ByteStrings being relevant
2023-10-12 00:53:13 +0200 <monochrom> Lazy bytestring is supposed to enjoy fusion too.
2023-10-12 00:53:24 +0200 <monochrom> Ah. That.
2023-10-12 00:53:30 +0200 <c_wraith> geekosaur: there's no way lazy bytestring has *more* indirection than String
2023-10-12 00:53:57 +0200 <geekosaur> no, but I expect String fuses in more cases
2023-10-12 00:53:58 +0200 <monochrom> Time to look at Core, even Cmm?
2023-10-12 00:54:00 +0200 <c_wraith> ... if the String is ever materialized
2023-10-12 00:54:10 +0200 <c_wraith> yeah, fusion again
2023-10-12 00:55:48 +0200 <dolio> bytestring doesn't actually hasn't had fusion for a long time, if it ever did.
2023-10-12 00:56:05 +0200geekosaurfails to parse
2023-10-12 00:56:06 +0200jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-12 00:56:11 +0200 <EvanR> my brain just exploded
2023-10-12 00:56:12 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, I edited that poorly.
2023-10-12 00:56:20 +0200 <dolio> It doesn't have fusion.
2023-10-12 00:56:48 +0200 <EvanR> so (strict, at least) bytestring is more what you see is what you get
2023-10-12 00:56:57 +0200 <dolio> I don't know if it was all ripped out, or if it never got added.
2023-10-12 00:57:22 +0200 <monochrom> :(
2023-10-12 00:58:07 +0200 <EvanR> I guess I should try Text for completeness
2023-10-12 01:00:51 +0200 <dolio> I definitely remember talk about it when it first debuted.
2023-10-12 01:02:29 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-10-12 01:03:29 +0200 <EvanR> (strict) Text gets the same exact time as strict bytestring
2023-10-12 01:03:52 +0200 <EvanR> text-2.0 which is utf8 right
2023-10-12 01:03:57 +0200 <geekosaur> yes
2023-10-12 01:05:16 +0200td_(~td@2001:9e8:19f7:c900:55c4:edef:d459:6ff7) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-12 01:05:17 +0200 <EvanR> so it's probably more or less identical algorithms to my Bytestring.Char8 code
2023-10-12 01:05:24 +0200 <EvanR> on ascii
2023-10-12 01:07:25 +0200 <EvanR> except Text is apparently implemented with a ByteArray# and ByteString is a foreign pointer
2023-10-12 01:07:31 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2023-10-12 01:08:58 +0200 <EvanR> it must be that my minimum time just doesn't have anything to do with the data structure anymore
2023-10-12 01:13:11 +0200 <solrize> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/linear-types i just found out that this got merged into ghc a while back i hadn't been paying tattention. i'm wondering if there could be some way to have linear values with i/o actions inside, so you can consume the value inside a pure function and have the action happen, sort of how i/o in Clean worked
2023-10-12 01:14:19 +0200harveypwca_(~harveypwc@2601:246:c280:6a90:837d:db39:3eea:f7db)
2023-10-12 01:15:49 +0200Square3(~Square4@user/square)
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2023-10-12 01:17:31 +0200 <solrize> the IO monad is kind of a hack to get around the former absence of linear types in haskell, right? It's State RealWorld a
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2023-10-12 01:18:15 +0200Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 01:19:24 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 01:20:16 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c738de.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2023-10-12 01:21:16 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c738de.dyn.optonline.net)
2023-10-12 01:21:22 +0200Square3(~Square4@user/square) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-12 01:21:33 +0200 <solrize> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/linear_types.html sorry meant this, it is a little different from the wiki page but i'll read the wiki page now
2023-10-12 01:22:14 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
2023-10-12 01:24:21 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
2023-10-12 01:25:31 +0200 <geekosaur> you can want sequencing without linearity, so I'd say no unless the linearity is specific to the "RealWorld" token. and even then I think that prevents e.g. forkIO
2023-10-12 01:25:49 +0200kantokuen(~kantokuen@user/kantokuen)
2023-10-12 01:26:02 +0200 <EvanR> how did/does Clean work?
2023-10-12 01:26:56 +0200td_(~td@83.135.9.0)
2023-10-12 01:27:41 +0200 <solrize> geekosaur, yeah RealWorld is sort of a fiction in the face of concurrency. Clean had something called uniqueness types which were sort of like linear types
2023-10-12 01:27:49 +0200 <solrize> and used them for effects
2023-10-12 01:28:00 +0200 <dolio> It doesn't make any actual semantic sense.
2023-10-12 01:28:00 +0200 <solrize> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_(programming_language)
2023-10-12 01:28:24 +0200 <solrize> yeah there is a paper "tackling the awkward squad" which dishes the dirt
2023-10-12 01:28:47 +0200 <solrize> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/tackling-awkward-squad-monadic-inputoutput-co…
2023-10-12 01:29:07 +0200ph88(~ph88@2a01:598:b034:e155:39dc:f437:99ae:bc1f)
2023-10-12 01:33:08 +0200 <EvanR> IO could easily be an abstract data type of primitive actions string together with a >>= operation
2023-10-12 01:33:16 +0200 <EvanR> strung together*
2023-10-12 01:33:40 +0200 <EvanR> uniqueness or linear types must be for something else
2023-10-12 01:41:23 +0200 <Inst> why does Snoyman use so much template Haskell?
2023-10-12 01:41:34 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-179-96.static.ip.netia.com.pl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-12 01:41:40 +0200 <monochrom> Wouldn't you ask Snoyman? :)
2023-10-12 01:41:46 +0200 <geekosaur> like I said, sequencing. linear types would prevent "forking" a series of I/O actions that could run concurrently with other actions; monads provide a mechanism for direct sequencing
2023-10-12 01:42:00 +0200 <Inst> Well, he's busy
2023-10-12 01:42:34 +0200 <Inst> to a large extent a lot of stuff in Haskell seems to be code archaeology
2023-10-12 01:42:36 +0200 <geekosaur> that doesn't mean other people know
2023-10-12 01:42:52 +0200myxokephale(~myxos@cpe-65-28-251-121.cinci.res.rr.com)
2023-10-12 01:43:00 +0200 <Inst> as in, there's code that represents ancient notions of what was good practice at the time
2023-10-12 01:43:16 +0200myxokephale(~myxos@cpe-65-28-251-121.cinci.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
2023-10-12 01:43:20 +0200kantokuen(~kantokuen@user/kantokuen) (Quit: brb)
2023-10-12 01:43:34 +0200 <monochrom> I don't understand why a lot of stuff in Haskell is code archaeology. What I see is you are doing code archaeology.
2023-10-12 01:44:48 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square)
2023-10-12 01:45:28 +0200 <Inst> yeah, i guess
2023-10-12 01:45:57 +0200 <Inst> for the exact same niche as yesod, i should be looking at IHP for something recent
2023-10-12 01:46:17 +0200 <Inst> then i don't get a right to complain about 20 year old libraries
2023-10-12 01:46:40 +0200 <geekosaur> sometimes things are used just because they work. Servant is a good example
2023-10-12 01:46:43 +0200 <monochrom> At the beginning, someone suggested you to look at existing code so as to accelerate you writing your own production code. But as it turns out, you turn that into its own rabbit hole for its own sake so as to prevent you from writing any code at all.
2023-10-12 01:46:46 +0200 <geekosaur> or scotty or spock
2023-10-12 01:47:13 +0200kantokuen(~kantokuen@user/kantokuen)
2023-10-12 01:47:32 +0200hgolden_(~hgolden@cpe-172-251-233-141.socal.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-10-12 01:47:44 +0200 <geekosaur> but I'm not saying look at their code, I'm saying make use of them
2023-10-12 01:49:53 +0200 <Inst> you must be mistaken, I'm looking at Cabal to figure out how to write an exact parser
2023-10-12 01:49:58 +0200 <monochrom> Anyway, back to IO and linearity.
2023-10-12 01:50:07 +0200 <Inst> Yesod is more me getting bored and trying to take a break to do an easy project
2023-10-12 01:50:21 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-12 01:51:24 +0200 <monochrom> If you use the World->(a,World) model for IO and/or ST, you can notice that the World is used linearly (or stronger) (if you ignore concurrency and unsafePerformIO). This is where linear types and uniqueness types can come in.
2023-10-12 01:51:54 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
2023-10-12 01:52:09 +0200 <monochrom> In fact, Wadler wrote a "linear types can change the world!" paper that suggests linear types instead of monads for ST. (The rest is history.)
2023-10-12 01:52:58 +0200 <monochrom> Thing is, Wadler wrote both "monads for mutable states" and "linearity for mutable states" so he was successful, one of his proposals was adopted. :)
2023-10-12 01:54:56 +0200 <solrize> lol
2023-10-12 01:54:57 +0200myxokephale(~myxos@cpe-65-28-251-121.cinci.res.rr.com)
2023-10-12 01:55:02 +0200 <monochrom> Concurrency should be the best reason why linearity will run into a roadblock for the pupose of IO. But I am depraved, my first instinct was "but it conflicts with unsafePerformIO". Am I evil?
2023-10-12 01:55:06 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-10-12 01:55:40 +0200 <dolio> It doesn't work for infinite processes, either.
2023-10-12 01:56:06 +0200 <EvanR> obviously linear types only works for single threaded code, it's linear. To express concurrency you need non-linear types
2023-10-12 01:56:14 +0200 <EvanR> multilinear
2023-10-12 01:56:28 +0200 <dolio> How is `forever (putStrLn "Hello")` different from `forever (return ())`?
2023-10-12 01:56:42 +0200 <solrize> World->(a,World) is also single threaded
2023-10-12 01:56:56 +0200 <EvanR> I was joking
2023-10-12 01:57:11 +0200 <EvanR> but World -> (a, World) explains what I was wondering
2023-10-12 01:57:20 +0200 <EvanR> answers my question
2023-10-12 01:57:25 +0200 <monochrom> :)
2023-10-12 01:58:13 +0200 <dolio> If you try to use State, then those both look like `const undefined`.
2023-10-12 01:59:06 +0200 <dolio> Which of course doesn't even look linear, but the terms you wrote do.
2023-10-12 01:59:57 +0200 <EvanR> ghci really doesn't like forever (return ())
2023-10-12 02:02:05 +0200 <solrize> > fix error
2023-10-12 02:02:07 +0200 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
2023-10-12 02:04:43 +0200hiyori(~hiyori@user/hiyori) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-10-12 02:10:25 +0200 <davean> Inst: People didn't like Yesod's style at the time - its super anti-haskell
2023-10-12 02:11:28 +0200myxokephale(~myxos@cpe-65-28-251-121.cinci.res.rr.com) (Quit: myxokephale)
2023-10-12 02:12:12 +0200Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 02:12:36 +0200 <monochrom> And conversely, a lot of other people like a lot of web/html templating and came from that background (just look at how PHP started out), so they were attracted to Yesod.
2023-10-12 02:17:00 +0200zer0bitz_(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz)
2023-10-12 02:19:17 +0200 <solrize> you mean the like yesod more now? it was hacky but it did a lot iirc
2023-10-12 02:20:29 +0200zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-12 02:20:31 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
2023-10-12 02:20:31 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2023-10-12 02:20:31 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2023-10-12 02:21:20 +0200 <monochrom> Oh, usually the hacky ways are the ways that get a lot more done haha.
2023-10-12 02:21:33 +0200 <monochrom> Just look at C. >:D
2023-10-12 02:21:58 +0200 <monochrom> Even C++ started out as a meta-hack.
2023-10-12 02:22:58 +0200 <monochrom> But I bet: Those same people haven't changed. But the set of all people changed.
2023-10-12 02:24:46 +0200stites(~stites@130.44.147.204) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-10-12 02:25:41 +0200 <solrize> pipes avoided the hacks and could in principle could have been extended to do the same stuff, i thought. but i never used either
2023-10-12 02:29:00 +0200stites(~stites@130.44.147.204) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-12 02:29:17 +0200derpyxdhs(~Thunderbi@user/derpyxdhs)
2023-10-12 02:29:59 +0200stites(~stites@2607:fb90:ad61:8a6e:9493:31c0:7f1b:f1e6)
2023-10-12 02:30:06 +0200 <EvanR> pipes as a web server? or template language or
2023-10-12 02:30:27 +0200 <solrize> pipes as an alternative to conduit
2023-10-12 02:30:35 +0200 <monochrom> linear pipes can web the world! >:)
2023-10-12 02:30:40 +0200 <solrize> hhe
2023-10-12 02:30:41 +0200 <solrize> heh
2023-10-12 02:31:09 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2023-10-12 02:31:53 +0200 <EvanR> linear pipes, is that a thing yet
2023-10-12 02:32:05 +0200stites(~stites@2607:fb90:ad61:8a6e:9493:31c0:7f1b:f1e6) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-12 02:32:26 +0200stites(~stites@130.44.147.204)
2023-10-12 02:34:44 +0200 <geekosaur> is pipes even being maintained? I thought conduit won the war
2023-10-12 02:35:10 +0200 <EvanR> then I should probably learn how to actually use pipes before it ceases to compile
2023-10-12 02:35:27 +0200 <solrize> yeah i think pipes got overcomplicated
2023-10-12 02:35:37 +0200 <solrize> and is somewhat abandoned now
2023-10-12 02:36:26 +0200hugo-(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-12 02:37:24 +0200 <mauke> that reminds me, I think I still have an open PR in streaming
2023-10-12 02:37:37 +0200 <jackdk> I have always found pipes overcomplicated and hard to use. See also: https://www.haskellforall.com/2023/10/my-views-on-neohaskell.html -> "I learned this the hard way when I tried to shoehorn everything into my pipes package and realized that it was a huge mistake"
2023-10-12 02:37:55 +0200 <jackdk> Where the package author regrets pipes' design but does not go into detail
2023-10-12 02:38:39 +0200 <jackdk> mauke: I have one and you have two. Do you know if streaming gets much love these days? It is easily my favourite take on the streaming problem.
2023-10-12 02:41:11 +0200 <mauke> given that I've had no response since july 5, it looks pretty dead
2023-10-12 02:42:09 +0200 <jackdk> I think I've seen treeowl commenting on Haskell stuff in recent memory, have you tried pinging him again?
2023-10-12 02:43:39 +0200 <mauke> I just did :-)
2023-10-12 02:49:15 +0200 <EvanR> I wonder if there's a micropipes or something because damn
2023-10-12 02:49:26 +0200 <EvanR> that's a lot of type variables
2023-10-12 02:49:40 +0200 <EvanR> and they're not all different letters
2023-10-12 02:50:26 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-10-12 02:50:26 +0200 <jackdk> I don't think I've ever needed bidirectional streaming, and if you cut that many variables go away.
2023-10-12 02:51:20 +0200 <mauke> isn't streaming like micropipes?
2023-10-12 02:51:36 +0200 <jackdk> I'd say so - the core type is pretty simple and in the worst case you can pattern-match your way to victory
2023-10-12 02:52:39 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 02:53:20 +0200 <jackdk> I think also that the pipes/conduit style of "I have separate 'input' and 'output' type variables" makes it hard to do some things that I really want, like chunking without giving up perfect streaming. compare the grouping API of streaming with the lens/freeT-based one in pipes-group
2023-10-12 02:53:23 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2023-10-12 02:54:38 +0200puke(~puke@user/puke) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-12 02:54:59 +0200puke(~puke@user/puke)
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2023-10-12 02:57:58 +0200puke(~puke@user/puke)
2023-10-12 02:58:42 +0200 <EvanR> what is perfect streaming
2023-10-12 02:59:16 +0200puke(~puke@user/puke) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2023-10-12 03:00:49 +0200 <mauke> yield elements to downstream consumers as soon as possible, without building intermediate structures in memory or performing additional effects
2023-10-12 03:00:58 +0200puke(~puke@user/puke)
2023-10-12 03:02:35 +0200 <mauke> consider something that streams lines from stdin and the equivalent of a 'group' operation
2023-10-12 03:03:15 +0200 <mauke> it should be able to 'yield' the first line of input immediately, without reading any further input
2023-10-12 03:03:45 +0200 <EvanR> how does pipes fail at that
2023-10-12 03:04:23 +0200 <mauke> I don't think pipes has "native" support for chunking
2023-10-12 03:04:57 +0200 <mauke> and if you build it wrong, you'll accumulate equal lines until you get a different one before yielding the first group
2023-10-12 03:05:14 +0200harveypwca_(~harveypwc@2601:246:c280:6a90:837d:db39:3eea:f7db) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-10-12 03:09:07 +0200 <jackdk> There's a separate pipes-group library with a truly spectacular type signature: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes-group-1.0.12/docs/Pipes-Group.html#v:groups
2023-10-12 03:10:13 +0200 <EvanR> >Group elements without collecting them into memory
2023-10-12 03:10:18 +0200 <EvanR> how...
2023-10-12 03:12:55 +0200 <jackdk> by knowing when to yield vs start a new group
2023-10-12 03:15:35 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:16:24 +0200haritzondo(~hrtz@2a02:8010:65b5:0:6009:6384:e3cb:2220)
2023-10-12 03:16:30 +0200 <EvanR> it's cool that pipes-group doesn't depend on lens I guess
2023-10-12 03:16:41 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:16:58 +0200 <EvanR> and then the docs don't have the Lens type linked
2023-10-12 03:17:40 +0200 <jackdk> that's because you can define `type Lens s t a b = forall f . Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t` in your code and it will play nicely with any van Laarhoven lens library.
2023-10-12 03:18:13 +0200 <geekosaur> microlens comes to mind
2023-10-12 03:18:29 +0200 <EvanR> I heard of that, unfortunate for the documentation though
2023-10-12 03:19:12 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
2023-10-12 03:20:09 +0200 <mauke> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/streaming-0.2.4.0/docs/Streaming-Prelude.html#v:group
2023-10-12 03:21:43 +0200ph88^(~ph88@2a02:8109:9e26:c800:4032:6e4:4abc:bb40)
2023-10-12 03:21:50 +0200otto_s(~user@p4ff272d5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:22:34 +0200YuutaW(~YuutaW@2404:f4c0:f9c3:502::100:17b7) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:23:20 +0200otto_s(~user@p5b0447b7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-10-12 03:23:46 +0200 <EvanR> that doesn't even use lens smh
2023-10-12 03:23:50 +0200YuutaW(~YuutaW@mail.yuuta.moe)
2023-10-12 03:23:51 +0200ph88(~ph88@2a01:598:b034:e155:39dc:f437:99ae:bc1f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:28:50 +0200otto_s(~user@p5b0447b7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:30:29 +0200otto_s(~user@p5b044ce8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-10-12 03:38:55 +0200 <jackdk> I love lens, but I don't understand that perspective.
2023-10-12 03:39:00 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:39:44 +0200 <mauke> what, sarcasm?
2023-10-12 03:40:05 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:41:11 +0200raym(~ray@user/raym) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-12 03:42:44 +0200 <Clint> many people don't
2023-10-12 03:45:17 +0200erisco(~erisco@d24-141-66-165.home.cgocable.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+cygwin2 - https://znc.in)
2023-10-12 03:46:06 +0200erisco(~erisco@d24-141-66-165.home.cgocable.net)
2023-10-12 03:47:05 +0200 <jackdk> I sometimes miss it over text, yeah
2023-10-12 03:48:51 +0200raym(~ray@user/raym)
2023-10-12 03:51:14 +0200hiyori(~hiyori@user/hiyori)
2023-10-12 03:55:55 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-10-12 03:56:59 +0200geekosaur's xmonad config uses dbus, which means it has both conduit and lens in its dependency graph
2023-10-12 03:57:19 +0200 <geekosaur> why yes, my window manager has half of hackage in its dependencies, doesn't everyone's? 😛
2023-10-12 03:59:34 +0200 <geekosaur> (I am occasionally tempted to just have it shell out to dbus-send)
2023-10-12 03:59:56 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-12 04:00:44 +0200 <geekosaur> guess I scared him off 😛
2023-10-12 04:04:31 +0200yaroot(~yaroot@2400:4052:ac0:d900:1cf4:2aff:fe51:c04c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-12 04:04:45 +0200 <monochrom> "broken pipe" >:)
2023-10-12 04:05:08 +0200yaroot(~yaroot@p3477236-ipngn9802souka.saitama.ocn.ne.jp)
2023-10-12 04:07:22 +0200 <monochrom> Um lens plus conduit plus their dependencies look like a pretty short list (under 30).
2023-10-12 04:07:52 +0200 <monochrom> err actually let me try with a more clean slate
2023-10-12 04:08:41 +0200 <geekosaur> there's a few other things involved, like XML processing. the dependency list was certainly over 30, that fits on my screen 🙂
2023-10-12 04:09:53 +0200derpyxdhs(~Thunderbi@user/derpyxdhs) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-12 04:13:27 +0200geekosaurhas to wait, he broke cabal-plan by purging old compilers. oughtta switch to install-method=copy…
2023-10-12 04:14:34 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah absolutely. In .cabal/config "install-method: copy"
2023-10-12 04:14:35 +0200img(~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2023-10-12 04:15:17 +0200 <monochrom> I actually don't understand why it is not the default, and what went into the dev minds back then.
2023-10-12 04:15:30 +0200img(~img@user/img)
2023-10-12 04:15:35 +0200 <geekosaur> oh, actually I have that set now, just didn't when I installed it
2023-10-12 04:16:12 +0200 <geekosaur> (~/.config/cabal/config 🙂 )
2023-10-12 04:16:32 +0200 <monochrom> haha new generation
2023-10-12 04:20:16 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@ai101218.d.east.v6connect.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-12 04:20:22 +0200haritzondoharitz
2023-10-12 04:20:23 +0200haritz(~hrtz@2a02:8010:65b5:0:6009:6384:e3cb:2220) (Changing host)
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2023-10-12 04:21:55 +0200derpyxdhs(~Thunderbi@user/derpyxdhs)
2023-10-12 04:22:29 +0200hsw__(~hsw@112-104-139-44.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw)
2023-10-12 04:23:32 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-10-12 04:24:15 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 04:24:23 +0200 <geekosaur> beta tester 🙂
2023-10-12 04:25:24 +0200khumba(~khumba@user/khumba)
2023-10-12 04:26:53 +0200barzo(~hd@31.223.56.222)
2023-10-12 04:31:12 +0200 <geekosaur> huh, actually cabal-plan (with some munging) says it is that short
2023-10-12 04:31:28 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2023-10-12 04:31:44 +0200 <geekosaur> wait, no, half the deps are missing
2023-10-12 04:32:31 +0200sabino(~sabino@user/sabino) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-12 04:32:53 +0200 <geekosaur> okay, unit ids list got them. 111
2023-10-12 04:33:14 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah OK that's epic.
2023-10-12 04:34:31 +0200sabino(~sabino@user/sabino)
2023-10-12 04:36:01 +0200hsw__(~hsw@112-104-139-44.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-10-12 04:37:31 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:5d3c:fd45:6dba:f35a) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-10-12 04:38:42 +0200 <sclv> copy is unreliable as an install method in the presence of data files iirc
2023-10-12 04:39:05 +0200 <geekosaur> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kMCJCk7V
2023-10-12 04:39:16 +0200 <sclv> ie a copied executable is still system specific.
2023-10-12 04:39:25 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-10-12 04:39:29 +0200 <geekosaur> also interestingly I have install-method: copy in my cabal config and it's still making symlinks
2023-10-12 04:39:59 +0200 <sclv> maybe its using the new config location??
2023-10-12 04:40:05 +0200 <sclv> xdg
2023-10-12 04:40:15 +0200 <monochrom> Nice, actual tree picture :)
2023-10-12 04:40:44 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-12 04:40:45 +0200 <geekosaur> uh. how did I get cabal stuff in the old location again? now I can't trust my config
2023-10-12 04:40:59 +0200geekosaurnukes it and recreates mode 0 file ~/.cabal
2023-10-12 04:41:51 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
2023-10-12 04:41:51 +0200finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-10-12 04:41:51 +0200finn_elijaFinnElija
2023-10-12 04:41:55 +0200 <geekosaur> got rid of that after the h;s update that stopped it from using cabal-3.6 during startup
2023-10-12 04:44:15 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c738de.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 04:45:10 +0200 <geekosaur> and it's rebuilding everything again now; guess it was using the wrong store, and I'm lucky it didn't run me out of disk space
2023-10-12 04:45:47 +0200grnman_(~michaelsc@c-66-176-3-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
2023-10-12 04:46:30 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c738de.dyn.optonline.net)
2023-10-12 04:46:37 +0200 <monochrom> And there are 108 packages to rebuild from Pandora's box...
2023-10-12 04:48:16 +0200 <geekosaur> wait until I rebuild cabal 😛
2023-10-12 04:48:28 +0200 <geekosaur> (probably kick that just before I go to bed, it takes forever)
2023-10-12 04:49:01 +0200 <monochrom> haha yeah cabal-install is a whole different saga.
2023-10-12 04:49:34 +0200 <monochrom> So between dbus and cabal, you build the whole hackage >:)
2023-10-12 04:51:09 +0200 <geekosaur> no, to do that I have to build HLS 😛
2023-10-12 04:51:20 +0200 <monochrom> Ah haha
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2023-10-12 05:57:34 +0200lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com)
2023-10-12 05:58:18 +0200 <lisbeths> can we get lambdabot to service #lambdacalculus ?
2023-10-12 06:04:15 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
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2023-10-12 07:27:44 +0200khumba(~khumba@user/khumba) ()
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2023-10-12 07:32:00 +0200alphacentauri(alphacenta@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/alphacentauri)
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2023-10-12 08:00:51 +0200 <geekosaur> lisbeths, talk to int-e
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2023-10-12 11:29:43 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-10-12 11:31:24 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2023-10-12 11:37:13 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-12 11:38:06 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2023-10-12 11:38:19 +0200alphacentauri(alphacenta@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/alphacentauri)
2023-10-12 11:40:30 +0200Guest4140(~pera@8.29.109.183)
2023-10-12 11:41:12 +0200cpressey(~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-10-12 11:41:24 +0200cpressey(~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net)
2023-10-12 11:45:23 +0200 <Guest4140> I have seen this unfortunate pattern many times now: you have a function that generates some sort of record where everything is pure except for one random uuid that is created in this function, and because of this you have io everywhere, is there a good way to avoid this? I winder if there is a type that is some sort of promise of an effect
2023-10-12 11:49:12 +0200 <stefan-__> you could take the UUID as an argument to that function
2023-10-12 11:50:32 +0200 <dminuoso> Guest4140: This is not an unfortunate pattern.
2023-10-12 11:50:34 +0200 <dminuoso> It's honesty.
2023-10-12 11:50:50 +0200 <dminuoso> The creation of your value transitively depends on IO.
2023-10-12 11:51:19 +0200 <dminuoso> If you want to get rid of it, you can parameterize it over the IO dependent value, ie.: f :: IO Int; g :: Int -> Foo
2023-10-12 11:53:25 +0200shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.175.87) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-12 11:57:38 +0200 <Guest4140> thanks both for your answers :)
2023-10-12 11:58:34 +0200 <danse-nr3> also if you add the needed value as the last one of the function, you should get a rather nice Id -> Record interface
2023-10-12 12:05:28 +0200connrs(~connrs@user/connrs)
2023-10-12 12:05:35 +0200 <arahael> dminuoso: Yes, but when you do that, if you call the parameterised value, doesn't it become effectively static?
2023-10-12 12:06:17 +0200accord(uid568320@id-568320.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2023-10-12 12:08:51 +0200connrs(~connrs@user/connrs) (Client Quit)
2023-10-12 12:10:41 +0200 <[exa]> Guest4140: kinda more generally, I push hard to always have IDs and UUIDs and similar identifiers _outside_ of the data structures. They are the "locator" information that should be external to data, not the "actual data".
2023-10-12 12:10:56 +0200 <[exa]> (as an anti-example, if the ID is in the data structure, it "identifies itself")
2023-10-12 12:11:28 +0200 <[exa]> (which sounds loopy and everyone should instinctively refuse it, right. :D )
2023-10-12 12:11:43 +0200 <dminuoso> `foo 1 2 "bar" <$> getUUID` is wonderfully descriptive.
2023-10-12 12:12:02 +0200 <dminuoso> The <$>/<*> syntax lends itself wonderfully for applying functions to pure and effectful values
2023-10-12 12:12:46 +0200cpressey(~cpressey@host-2-102-11-74.as13285.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-10-12 12:13:00 +0200 <[exa]> +1 ^. the other quite sensible pattern is: withUUID :: a -> IO (Identified a)
2023-10-12 12:13:23 +0200 <[exa]> (you can even overload there a bit and get specific uuids for specific stuff)
2023-10-12 12:13:29 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2023-10-12 12:20:42 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.190.13)
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2023-10-12 12:25:47 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c711729fee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-10-12 12:25:59 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-10-12 12:27:36 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-10-12 12:27:37 +0200stiell_(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
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2023-10-12 12:31:03 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-71-193-181-0.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2023-10-12 12:37:33 +0200stiell_(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2023-10-12 12:39:43 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c711729fee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5)
2023-10-12 12:41:10 +0200 <Guest4140> ah I like that!
2023-10-12 12:47:45 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
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2023-10-12 13:07:05 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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2023-10-12 13:40:21 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:2b6:8b00:664b:f0ff:fe37:9ef) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2023-10-12 13:53:03 +0200tromp(~textual@92.110.219.57) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-10-12 13:54:36 +0200Guest4140(~pera@8.29.109.183) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2023-10-12 13:57:00 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-2-212.771202.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-12 14:00:10 +0200waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-137-138.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
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2023-10-12 14:09:39 +0200danse-nr3(~francesco@151.35.146.11)
2023-10-12 14:09:48 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.190.13)
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2023-10-12 14:20:35 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 14:21:14 +0200lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com)
2023-10-12 14:22:05 +0200coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
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2023-10-12 14:25:26 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
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2023-10-12 14:31:58 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-12 14:34:45 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-204-025.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2023-10-12 14:35:11 +0200accord(uid568320@id-568320.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-10-12 14:35:50 +0200Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250)
2023-10-12 14:36:04 +0200 <Inst> cd ~
2023-10-12 14:36:31 +0200 <danse-nr3> /home/inst
2023-10-12 14:36:43 +0200stiell_(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-10-12 14:37:04 +0200stiell_(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2023-10-12 14:40:30 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:2b6:8b00:664b:f0ff:fe37:9ef)
2023-10-12 14:41:15 +0200Guest3869(~pera@8.29.109.184) (Quit: leaving)
2023-10-12 14:42:25 +0200 <Inst> gah, not again ;_;
2023-10-12 14:44:05 +0200 <[exa]> better than autopiloting `su -` password
2023-10-12 14:46:23 +0200vpan(~vpan@212.117.1.172) (Quit: Leaving.)
2023-10-12 14:50:06 +0200connrs(~connrs@user/connrs)
2023-10-12 14:51:48 +0200stites(~stites@130.44.147.204) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-12 14:52:05 +0200 <danse-nr3> which kind of environment would enable that type of errors? Emacs using the shell and the chat in the editor i guess. I gave up using the shell in emacs ... could have some advantages but felt clunky
2023-10-12 14:52:28 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-10-12 14:52:54 +0200stites(~stites@2607:fb91:dc7:121d:dfe0:41cb:ddb6:f516)
2023-10-12 14:53:28 +0200connrs(~connrs@user/connrs) (Client Quit)
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2023-10-12 14:56:38 +0200hugo-(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
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2023-10-12 15:00:35 +0200 <probie> danse-nr3: Any environment where the user is typing commands without actually looking. Back when I used xmonad I had a bad habit of doing that, because I had it set up to follow window focus to mouse focus, and would sometimes bump my laptop's trackpad
2023-10-12 15:05:41 +0200 <danse-nr3> good point
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2023-10-12 18:51:54 +0200igghibu(~igghibu@146.70.225.100)
2023-10-12 18:52:36 +0200 <danse-nr3_> hmm found no haddock syntax for records inline
2023-10-12 18:52:39 +0200 <danse-nr3_> newtype BoolCons = BoolCons { dec :: Bool {- ^ `dec` for deconstructor -} }
2023-10-12 18:53:43 +0200 <danse-nr3_> putting it on multiple lines makes it less immediate
2023-10-12 19:00:11 +0200 <ghoulguy> danse-nr3_: That's the inline syntax. What do you mean "found no"?
2023-10-12 19:01:26 +0200 <danse-nr3_> is that it? I just made it up but i do not see it in https://haskell-haddock.readthedocs.io/en/latest/markup.html#constructors-and-record-fields
2023-10-12 19:01:55 +0200 <ghoulguy> "Record fields are documented using one of these styles:"
2023-10-12 19:02:06 +0200 <ghoulguy> and then it shows using | and ^ comments on the fields
2023-10-12 19:02:53 +0200 <danse-nr3_> cool, there was no instance with {- ^ comment -} so had no clue. Thanks
2023-10-12 19:03:17 +0200 <ghoulguy> "You can also use Haskell’s nested-comment style for documentation annotations, which is sometimes more convenient when using multi-line comments:"
2023-10-12 19:05:29 +0200 <danse-nr3_> in the whole page there is not a single `{-^`, just instances of `{-|`, so i was not sure but good to know, thanks!
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2023-10-12 22:53:39 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
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2023-10-12 23:34:57 +0200 <EvanR> I heard that haskell was made pure because not pure and lazy was considered a very bad idea by the designers. It sounded like a hypothetical but I guess there was precedent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen%27s_device
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