2023/10/03

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2023-10-03 00:05:15 +0000 <dibblego> does this exist somewhere? blah :: Comonad w => (w a -> b) -> w a -> w (a, b); blah f = extend (\t -> (extract t, f t))
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2023-10-03 00:15:45 +0000 <probie> :t \f t -> fmap (,f t) t
2023-10-03 00:15:46 +0000 <lambdabot> Functor f => (f t1 -> t2) -> f t1 -> f (t1, t2)
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2023-10-03 00:29:05 +0000 <monochrom> :)
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2023-10-03 05:33:30 +0000 <haskellbridge> <b​ozeman_5-0> https://discord.com/invite/Eug7txK6WV
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2023-10-03 07:52:47 +0000 <kuribas`> https://medium.com/javascript-scene/the-shocking-secret-about-static-types-514d39bf30a3
2023-10-03 07:53:08 +0000 <kuribas`> Supposedly clojure: 8.29% bug density, and haskell 29.72%...
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2023-10-03 07:54:06 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2023-10-03 07:54:09 +0000 <kuribas`> My experience with clojure is that I can write thousands of lines of haskell code with only a few "bugs", and not even a few lines of clojure code without.
2023-10-03 07:54:14 +0000 <kuribas`> I'd say this is complete BS.
2023-10-03 07:54:23 +0000 <kuribas`> Or I am just terrible at clojure :)
2023-10-03 07:54:56 +0000 <kuribas`> But we also have a javascript frontend done by an external team which has been dragging on an has tons of bugs.
2023-10-03 07:56:18 +0000 <[exa]> kuribas`: what is this "bug density" metric? #issues slashed by #LoC ?
2023-10-03 07:57:25 +0000 <kuribas`> I suppose so.
2023-10-03 07:57:26 +0000 <[exa]> anyway yeah the article is nonsense
2023-10-03 07:58:13 +0000 <[exa]> (also identified by use of boldface instead of emph)
2023-10-03 07:58:51 +0000 <kuribas`> I wonder about these advocates, are they just too lazy to learn types?
2023-10-03 07:59:19 +0000myxos(~myxos@cpe-65-28-251-121.cinci.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-10-03 07:59:23 +0000 <mankyKitty> As someone that has taught haskell, it's not about laziness, it's often about how people have been exposed to type systems in the past
2023-10-03 07:59:53 +0000 <kuribas`> yeah, one of my colleages has a trauma of types due to scala :-0
2023-10-03 08:00:00 +0000 <kuribas`> two of them actually.
2023-10-03 08:00:02 +0000 <mankyKitty> if you're only exposure is "the compiler won't let me pass an Int because the type says String" ... then you're not going to see a lot of value
2023-10-03 08:00:10 +0000 <mankyKitty> or scala yeah
2023-10-03 08:01:04 +0000 <kuribas`> Typed holes are one of my favorite type system features.
2023-10-03 08:01:16 +0000 <mankyKitty> But also the thinking that "it only improves things a little sometimes and is therefore a complete and utter waste of time" seems a little ... disigenuous
2023-10-03 08:01:17 +0000 <kuribas`> But even just having the squiggly lines while I code or indispensable for me.
2023-10-03 08:01:29 +0000 <probie> For a rather useless data point, I'd say that the number of bugs remaining once all my tests are passing doesn't differ much between static and dynamic typing
2023-10-03 08:01:48 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@185.238.219.57) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-10-03 08:01:53 +0000 <mankyKitty> or thinking that it's purely about helping code linters, there's a fundamental misunderstanding buried in there that hinders a greater understanding of what's on offer
2023-10-03 08:02:09 +0000 <probie> The process of getting to "all tests passing" is not the same however
2023-10-03 08:02:09 +0000myxos(~myxos@cpe-65-28-251-121.cinci.res.rr.com)
2023-10-03 08:02:21 +0000 <kuribas`> I tried linters in clojure, and I found them very lacking.
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2023-10-03 08:02:56 +0000 <kuribas`> For me it's not about code correctness,but about the ability to understand and reason about code.
2023-10-03 08:03:20 +0000 <mankyKitty> ehhh, it's a slanted article meant to push a specific point and then upsell their courses.. If the person shows up we should be helpful
2023-10-03 08:03:33 +0000 <mankyKitty> but apart from that, there's others things to do
2023-10-03 08:03:54 +0000 <int-e> . o O ( "what does really reduce bug density"... boilerplate! we need more boilerplate! hundreds of lines with little bug potential )
2023-10-03 08:05:05 +0000 <kuribas`> For me, the only good boilerplate is the one that is checked with types, so I don't have to worry about it.
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2023-10-03 08:07:32 +0000 <dibblego> I write clojure every day for the last 6 months. 100% of our bugs that I have so far encountered would not have existed in Haskell.
2023-10-03 08:07:51 +0000 <mankyKitty> we're also hella biased in here, so as much as we're convinced, our `evidence` is still anecdotal ;) *he says poking the bear*
2023-10-03 08:08:04 +0000 <kuribas`> I have been doing some Python programming with dataframes, and I think being able to track columns and units would be a great advantage (using phantom/dependent types).
2023-10-03 08:08:23 +0000 <kuribas`> mankyKitty: we *are* biased, but I think haskell challenges lie elsewhere.
2023-10-03 08:08:40 +0000 <probie> dibblego: how many of them are a sneaky `nil` slipping in?
2023-10-03 08:08:50 +0000 <dibblego> the conclusion from that chart is: "python programmers admit their mistakes more often than clojure"
2023-10-03 08:08:58 +0000 <dibblego> probie: about 40-60%
2023-10-03 08:09:01 +0000 <dibblego> at a guess
2023-10-03 08:09:08 +0000 <mankyKitty> kuribas`: exactly. :)
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2023-10-03 08:14:04 +0000 <kuribas`> There real reason I get from clojure programmers, is that they find learning the types distracting, and they want an easy solution so they can think about the business logic instead.
2023-10-03 08:14:39 +0000 <kuribas`> It's a fair tradeoff, but not one it is often communicated honestly.
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2023-10-03 13:09:21 +0000elbear(~lucian@109.101.137.234)
2023-10-03 13:09:59 +0000 <elbear> hello. where can I find an up-to-date AST of Haskell?
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2023-10-03 13:11:42 +0000 <lortabac> @hackage ghc -- elbear
2023-10-03 13:11:42 +0000 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc -- elbear
2023-10-03 13:13:01 +0000 <lortabac> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.6.3/docs/Language-Haskell-Syntax.html
2023-10-03 13:16:25 +0000 <elbear> lortabac: awesome. thank you!
2023-10-03 13:18:45 +0000Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus)
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2023-10-03 13:21:27 +0000 <tomsmeding> elbear: see also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.18.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH-Syntax.html which is the thing you can use as a user from TemplateHaskell
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2023-10-03 13:33:44 +0000 <elbear> tomsmeding: thanks. this might be useful
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2023-10-03 18:52:09 +0000danza_(~francesco@151.43.122.221)
2023-10-03 18:52:12 +0000danse-nr3__(~francesco@151.43.122.221)
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2023-10-03 18:54:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> mankyKitty: re "can't pass Int because the type says String" not being very valuable: without a type system catching that, honestly what did you expect would happen? :p
2023-10-03 18:54:46 +0000danza(~francesco@151.43.108.29) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-03 18:56:19 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8497:de9a:41ca:3ba4)
2023-10-03 18:56:35 +0000 <[exa]> tomsmeding: PHP
2023-10-03 18:56:37 +0000Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2023-10-03 18:57:37 +0000 <tomsmeding> @hackage acme-php
2023-10-03 18:57:37 +0000 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-php
2023-10-03 18:58:11 +0000 <loonycyborg> you're forced to work with types no matter what, only tradeoff is compile-time vs runtime
2023-10-03 18:59:27 +0000 <loonycyborg> even if type isn't something programmer specifies the programming language still have to make sense of data it gets somehow..
2023-10-03 18:59:43 +0000 <[exa]> tomsmeding: I'm still amazed how much 2000's can fit into the acme-php homepage
2023-10-03 19:01:28 +0000hugo-(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-10-03 19:02:43 +0000cpressey88(~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net)
2023-10-03 19:05:07 +0000danza_(~francesco@151.43.122.221) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-03 19:06:23 +0000cpressey(~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-10-03 19:08:23 +0000Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2023-10-03 19:10:53 +0000cpressey88cpressey
2023-10-03 19:13:16 +0000Guest61(~Guest10@104.129.159.227)
2023-10-03 19:13:19 +0000 <Guest61> [Hi, in C# or OOP, for pubsub pattern, I can have event in a class, and other classes can subscribe to that event by adding many handlers to that events, e.g. adding a delegate to a click event in winform.
2023-10-03 19:13:20 +0000 <Guest61> Could anyone show me how I could approach this pub-sub problem in functional programming, and haskell, please?
2023-10-03 19:15:45 +0000notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2023-10-03 19:18:43 +0000Guest61(~Guest10@104.129.159.227) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-10-03 19:19:00 +0000 <EvanR> oof
2023-10-03 19:20:35 +0000hugo-hugo
2023-10-03 19:21:43 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8497:de9a:41ca:3ba4) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-03 19:21:43 +0000 <probie> Guest61: It really depends on what problem you're trying to solve. That said, if you really need to do something like this, I'd recommend using a `TChan`. Your event publisher creates a broadcast `TChan`, and to subscribe, clients call `dupTChan`
2023-10-03 19:21:52 +0000 <EvanR> they left
2023-10-03 19:22:55 +0000ulysses4ever(~artem@73.145.240.168)
2023-10-03 19:23:01 +0000 <probie> I know, but I've gone to the effort of typing, so I'm going to hit enter
2023-10-03 19:23:23 +0000 <probie> maybe they'll come back and look at the logs
2023-10-03 19:23:32 +0000 <monochrom> "sunk cost policy" :)
2023-10-03 19:25:29 +0000idgaen(~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5)
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2023-10-03 19:50:19 +0000thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-03 19:51:40 +0000Reyaina(~Reyaina@bras-base-otwaon230qw-grc-30-174-88-134-146.dsl.bell.ca)
2023-10-03 19:53:58 +0000danse-nr3__(~francesco@151.43.122.221)
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2023-10-03 19:55:21 +0000Square(~Square@user/square)
2023-10-03 19:55:23 +0000 <Reyaina> Courtney Rickett Gets Gangbanged by the Braves - The Shitty Clarinet Courtney Rickett takes ecstasy suppositories with Edna Skilton and ends up gangbanged by the Atlanta Braves and consensually sodomized by her trusty clarinet. https://justpaste.it/Courtney_Rickett_Gangbanged
2023-10-03 19:55:39 +0000hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-10-03 19:56:40 +0000 <mauke> @where ops
2023-10-03 19:56:40 +0000 <lambdabot> byorgey Cale conal copumpkin dcoutts dibblego dolio edwardk geekosaur glguy jmcarthur johnw mniip monochrom quicksilver shachaf shapr ski
2023-10-03 19:58:10 +0000ChanServ+o Cale
2023-10-03 19:58:18 +0000Cale+b *!*@bras-base-otwaon230qw-grc-30-174-88-134-146.dsl.bell.ca
2023-10-03 19:58:18 +0000ReyainaCale (Reyaina)
2023-10-03 19:58:29 +0000Cale-o Cale
2023-10-03 19:58:31 +0000ski(~ski@88.131.7.247) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-03 20:01:02 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8497:de9a:41ca:3ba4)
2023-10-03 20:01:10 +0000ChanServ+o litharge
2023-10-03 20:01:10 +0000litharge-bo *!*@bras-base-otwaon230qw-grc-30-174-88-134-146.dsl.bell.ca litharge
2023-10-03 20:04:43 +0000cpressey(~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-10-03 20:05:31 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:8497:de9a:41ca:3ba4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-03 20:05:41 +0000mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-212-239-236-59.dsl.scarlet.be) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
2023-10-03 20:08:48 +0000_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-03 20:09:18 +0000hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-10-03 20:09:19 +0000Franciman(~Franciman@mx1.fracta.dev)
2023-10-03 20:12:21 +0000mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-03 20:12:31 +0000simendsjo(~user@84.211.91.241) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-10-03 20:14:52 +0000 <EvanR> wut, your ban was overruled?
2023-10-03 20:15:26 +0000 <Franciman> hi, is there any public statistics about haskell adoption in industry and its trends?
2023-10-03 20:19:31 +0000Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-10-03 20:20:22 +0000 <geekosaur> EvanR, litharge implements ban timeouts. It will have asked Cale first for a timeout (or a non-timeout response making it permanent)
2023-10-03 20:20:44 +0000 <geekosaur> monochrom and I use it
2023-10-03 20:21:20 +0000cpressey(~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net)
2023-10-03 20:21:38 +0000 <EvanR> handy
2023-10-03 20:22:01 +0000 <EvanR> apparently it was not used in #space just now on that user
2023-10-03 20:22:04 +0000elkcl(~elkcl@broadband-95-84-226-240.ip.moscow.rt.ru) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-03 20:22:29 +0000 <geekosaur> right, it has to be invited into a channel
2023-10-03 20:22:31 +0000danse-nr3__(~francesco@151.43.122.221) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-03 20:23:03 +0000ulysses4ever(~artem@73.145.240.152)
2023-10-03 20:25:48 +0000johnw(~johnw@69.62.242.138)
2023-10-03 20:26:47 +0000artem(~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-03 20:27:47 +0000 <Cale> geekosaur: I asked for 1month
2023-10-03 20:28:11 +0000 <Cale> and it said "ack." and then probably interpreted it as 1 minute
2023-10-03 20:28:23 +0000elkcl(~elkcl@broadband-95-84-226-240.ip.moscow.rt.ru)
2023-10-03 20:28:59 +0000 <geekosaur> that sounds about right, I don't think it understands anything longer than days
2023-10-03 20:29:10 +0000 <geekosaur> at least I recall having to use days for a 2-week ban
2023-10-03 20:30:43 +0000elbear(~lucian@109.101.137.234)
2023-10-03 20:32:36 +0000ulysses4ever(~artem@73.145.240.152) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-10-03 20:37:50 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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2023-10-03 20:47:10 +0000nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-10-03 20:47:18 +0000ulysses4ever(~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
2023-10-03 20:47:46 +0000hiyori(~hiyori@user/hiyori) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-10-03 20:48:28 +0000cpressey96(~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2023-10-03 20:49:39 +0000takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-03 20:51:03 +0000Jackneill(~Jackneill@20014C4E1E13B20020A43670487A9903.dsl.pool.telekom.hu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2023-10-03 20:54:11 +0000cpressey(~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net) (Client Quit)
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2023-10-03 21:00:58 +0000cpressey(~cpressey@host-89-240-119-146.as13285.net)
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2023-10-03 21:01:35 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f62c83efacb636187f1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-10-03 21:01:38 +0000Square2(~Square4@user/square)
2023-10-03 21:01:59 +0000gatekempt(~gatekempt@user/gatekempt) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2023-10-03 21:11:03 +0000hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-10-03 21:13:35 +0000prite(~pritam@user/pritambaral)
2023-10-03 21:22:17 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2023-10-03 21:35:54 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
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2023-10-03 21:50:59 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
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2023-10-03 22:14:03 +0000migas5(~migas@astra4961.startdedicated.net)
2023-10-03 22:14:54 +0000migas(~migas@astra4961.startdedicated.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-10-03 22:16:46 +0000hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2023-10-03 22:22:17 +0000stites(~stites@2607:fb91:dca:1fe3:e61a:30b8:bd10:dac3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-10-03 22:25:24 +0000hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
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2023-10-03 22:38:21 +0000jackhillKM4MBG
2023-10-03 22:39:32 +0000[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2023-10-03 22:40:28 +0000Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving)
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2023-10-03 23:08:11 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@ai101218.d.east.v6connect.net)
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2023-10-03 23:21:50 +0000alphacentauri(alphacenta@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/alphacentauri) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5)
2023-10-03 23:23:48 +0000Square(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-10-03 23:24:12 +0000alphacentauri(alphacenta@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/alphacentauri)
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2023-10-03 23:35:20 +0000stites(~stites@130.44.147.204) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-10-03 23:35:45 +0000stites(~stites@2607:fb91:dca:1fe3:e61a:30b8:bd10:dac3)
2023-10-03 23:37:20 +0000hiredman(~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family)
2023-10-03 23:41:35 +0000thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224)
2023-10-03 23:44:30 +0000prite(~pritam@user/pritambaral) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-10-03 23:44:35 +0000jinsun_(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2023-10-03 23:44:35 +0000jinsunGuest2176
2023-10-03 23:44:35 +0000Guest2176(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Killed (lead.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2023-10-03 23:44:35 +0000jinsun_jinsun
2023-10-03 23:46:37 +0000geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-10-03 23:46:56 +0000geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2023-10-03 23:58:22 +0000stites(~stites@2607:fb91:dca:1fe3:e61a:30b8:bd10:dac3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-10-03 23:58:42 +0000stites(~stites@130.44.147.204)