IRCBrowse

2023/09/05

2023-09-05 00:01:28 +0200CAT_S(apic@brezn3.muc.ccc.de)
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2023-09-05 04:02:51 +0200Square(~Square@user/square)
2023-09-05 04:04:06 +0200 <Square> It seems to me cabal doesn't require you to specify files in Other-Modules/Exposed-Modules for it to actually compile and/or depend on that particular file. Can one enforce this check somehow?
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2023-09-05 06:43:01 +0200 <Lears> TIL the inliner can diverge even on -O0. GHC does not like the Y combinator. <.<
2023-09-05 06:43:38 +0200chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-09-05 06:48:02 +0200 <monochrom> Square: cabal sdist will miss out unlisted files.
2023-09-05 06:48:32 +0200 <Square> monochrom, oh ok. I'll try that
2023-09-05 06:48:33 +0200 <monochrom> And cabal install runs cabal sdist first and then use that tarball only. So it misses out on unlisted files, too.
2023-09-05 06:49:41 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f7228e66677b5f34067.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2023-09-05 08:08:25 +0200Me-me(~me-me@2602:ff16:3:0:1:dc:beef:d00d)
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2023-09-05 08:16:00 +0200Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-09-05 08:26:41 +0200 <Axman6> Lears: can you even meaningfully type the y-combinator in Haskell?
2023-09-05 08:27:55 +0200 <Lears> With newtype magic.
2023-09-05 08:29:07 +0200 <Lears> % newtype Y a = Y{ ($$) :: Y a -> a }
2023-09-05 08:29:07 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-09-05 08:29:15 +0200 <Lears> % fix f = Y (\x -> f (x $$ x)) $$ Y (\x -> f (x $$ x))
2023-09-05 08:29:15 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-09-05 08:29:19 +0200 <Lears> % :t fix
2023-09-05 08:29:19 +0200 <yahb2> fix :: (t -> t) -> t
2023-09-05 08:29:39 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937)
2023-09-05 08:29:40 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-09-05 08:32:38 +0200 <Axman6> right, thatr's like a well known example of breaking things
2023-09-05 08:35:28 +0200 <Lears> You can fix it pretty easily: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/23933
2023-09-05 08:36:58 +0200 <Lears> (tldr with NOINLINE)
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2023-09-05 09:51:27 +0200 <Axman6> Hmmmm, I didn't think that OverloadedRecordUpdate would be such a pain to use, do I really need to redefine getField and setField? Can't import some defaults?
2023-09-05 09:52:40 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-09-05 09:53:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> Axman6: > At this time, RebindableSyntax must be enabled when OverloadedRecordUpdate is and users are required to provide definitions for getField and setField. We anticipate this restriction to be lifted in a future release of GHC with builtin support for setField.
2023-09-05 09:53:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/overloaded_record_update.html#exten…
2023-09-05 09:53:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> obscure design IMO
2023-09-05 09:54:02 +0200 <Axman6> yeah I saw that, I was hoping I could import something and use Generic or... something. Was goping to not need lens for this project (as much as I love lens)
2023-09-05 09:54:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> I'd bounce off from having to enable RebindableSyntax
2023-09-05 09:54:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's a sledgehammer
2023-09-05 09:54:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> bloody 'if' won't work anymore unless you define an ifThenElse function, or what was it
2023-09-05 09:55:06 +0200 <Axman6> yeah, having to import Prelude and Data.String to get... numbers and string literals... is fun. Not worth it I think. Maybe I'll give optics a run
2023-09-05 09:55:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> it feels so tangential to the extension itself though
2023-09-05 09:55:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> why require the whole of RebindableSyntax
2023-09-05 09:55:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> if it was just setField and getField you'd define those in a Util module and get on with your life
2023-09-05 09:55:57 +0200 <Axman6> yeah agreed. I guess the extension should be considered experimental at the moment
2023-09-05 09:56:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> imean, EXPERIMENTAL
2023-09-05 09:56:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> :p
2023-09-05 09:56:23 +0200 <Axman6> indeed...
2023-09-05 09:56:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> boldface all-caps
2023-09-05 09:56:37 +0200 <Axman6> (I did miss that and jump straight to the code, like any good dev should)
2023-09-05 09:56:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> yeah
2023-09-05 09:56:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> been experimental since 9.2
2023-09-05 09:56:54 +0200 <Axman6> banner blindness, look it up
2023-09-05 09:57:09 +0200Axman6-> home
2023-09-05 09:57:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> that phenomenon is greater than just banners, and greater than just web or tech in the first place
2023-09-05 09:58:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> our office building has a button that you need to press to open the exit door, and the button is on a pillar 2 metres back from the door or so
2023-09-05 09:58:23 +0200mima(~mmh@net-2-38-140-112.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-09-05 09:58:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> the button was 10cm by 20cm or so and had an absolutely massive fat black downwards-pointing arrow pasted above it
2023-09-05 09:58:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> as we say it, "it was too big"
2023-09-05 09:59:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> people miss it constantly (who haven't been there before)
2023-09-05 09:59:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> also if some interface, or letter, or something has text printed very big, that's not where you start looking for information, because surely it's not going to be that obvious
2023-09-05 09:59:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> until it is
2023-09-05 10:00:24 +0200mima(~mmh@net-2-38-141-18.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2023-09-05 10:00:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> (the button is now one of those big round red "launch the missiles" button; perhaps that will help)
2023-09-05 10:00:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> s/button;/buttons;/
2023-09-05 10:01:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> well s/big // because it's smaller than the bloody previous button
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2023-09-05 10:14:09 +0200 <jackdk> Axman6: I like generic-lens and overloaded labels
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2023-09-05 11:27:07 +0200Buggys-(Buggys@Buggy.shelltalk.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2023-09-05 11:35:25 +0200Buggys(Buggys@buggy.shelltalk.net)
2023-09-05 11:37:51 +0200 <albet70> is there a simple tutorial for alex & happy?
2023-09-05 11:39:48 +0200 <Hecate> albet70: yes!
2023-09-05 11:40:00 +0200 <Hecate> https://serokell.io/blog/lexing-with-alex
2023-09-05 11:40:01 +0200danse-nr3(~francesco@151.57.111.200)
2023-09-05 11:40:04 +0200 <Hecate> this is part 1
2023-09-05 11:43:40 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
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2023-09-05 11:51:10 +0200thyriaen(~thyriaen@91.197.68.193)
2023-09-05 11:52:38 +0200 <thyriaen> Hiho, I have a string in my sourceode ( command run in the os ) which should not be altered, but is too long to fit in one line of my sourcede file hence i would like to split it into several lines -- what is the best practice in those cases ?
2023-09-05 11:54:08 +0200ph88^(~ph88@ip5b403cd4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2023-09-05 12:01:05 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-09-05 12:04:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> thyriaen: multi-line strings exist https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch2.html#x7-200002.6
2023-09-05 12:04:43 +0200 <Hecate> % :t mconcat @String
2023-09-05 12:04:44 +0200 <yahb2> mconcat @String :: [String] -> String
2023-09-05 12:04:59 +0200 <Hecate> thyriaen: 👆
2023-09-05 12:05:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> but multi-line strings are typically hard on syntax highlighters, hence concat is typically used :p
2023-09-05 12:05:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t concat
2023-09-05 12:05:16 +0200 <yahb2> concat :: Foldable t => t [a] -> [a]
2023-09-05 12:05:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> Hecate: would you use mconcat over concat?
2023-09-05 12:06:07 +0200 <Hecate> % :t concat @String
2023-09-05 12:06:07 +0200 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:9: error: ; • Expected kind ‘* -> *’, but ‘String’ has kind ‘*’ ; • In the type ‘String’ ; In the expression: concat @String
2023-09-05 12:06:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> for really long strings there is
2023-09-05 12:06:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> @hackage file-embed
2023-09-05 12:06:10 +0200 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/file-embed
2023-09-05 12:06:11 +0200 <Hecate> boou
2023-09-05 12:06:21 +0200 <Hecate> tomsmeding: I usually use mconcat yeah
2023-09-05 12:06:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t concat @_ @Char
2023-09-05 12:06:40 +0200 <yahb2> concat @_ @Char :: Foldable w => w [Char] -> [Char]
2023-09-05 12:06:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t concat @[] @Char
2023-09-05 12:06:43 +0200 <yahb2> concat @[] @Char :: [[Char]] -> [Char]
2023-09-05 12:07:02 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2023-09-05 12:07:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> why does @_ @Char turn the t into a w
2023-09-05 12:07:05 +0200 <albet70> monad do not compose, can we say monad can be wrapped by another monad?
2023-09-05 12:07:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's called a monad transformer
2023-09-05 12:07:27 +0200renegade_(~renegade@bcdcac82.skybroadband.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-09-05 12:07:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> Hecate: are you also of the camp of using fmap instead of map? :p
2023-09-05 12:08:07 +0200 <danse-nr3> i do, makes totally sense
2023-09-05 12:08:51 +0200 <Hecate> tomsmeding: actually no, I usually do it ML-style, List.map, Vector.map, etc
2023-09-05 12:09:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> I see
2023-09-05 12:10:09 +0200renegade(~renegade@bcdcac82.skybroadband.com)
2023-09-05 12:10:27 +0200 <thyriaen> tomsmeding, i will use your multiline string, thanks <3
2023-09-05 12:10:57 +0200 <danse-nr3> :t fold
2023-09-05 12:10:58 +0200 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
2023-09-05 12:11:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t fold @[] @String
2023-09-05 12:11:25 +0200 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:7: error: ; • Expecting one more argument to ‘[]’ ; Expected a type, but ‘[]’ has kind ‘* -> *’ ; • In the type ‘[]’ ; In the expression: fold @[] @String
2023-09-05 12:11:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :set -fprint-explicit-foralls
2023-09-05 12:11:35 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-09-05 12:11:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t fold
2023-09-05 12:11:37 +0200 <yahb2> fold ; :: forall a b k. ; containers-0.6.5.1:Utils.Containers.Internal.TypeError.Whoops ; "Data.Map.fold is gone. Use foldr." => ; (a -> b -> b) -> b -> Map k a -> b
2023-09-05 12:11:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> ?
2023-09-05 12:11:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah
2023-09-05 12:11:49 +0200 <danse-nr3> what are those @? Tried them on ghci but gave me syntax error
2023-09-05 12:11:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> :set -XTypeApplications
2023-09-05 12:12:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/type_applications.html#extension-Ty…
2023-09-05 12:12:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold @[] @String
2023-09-05 12:12:32 +0200 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold @[] @String :: [String] -> String
2023-09-05 12:12:49 +0200 <danse-nr3> i see they are instances somehow
2023-09-05 12:13:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's instantiating the type parameters of the function
2023-09-05 12:13:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t id
2023-09-05 12:13:01 +0200 <yahb2> id :: forall a. a -> a
2023-09-05 12:13:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t id @Int
2023-09-05 12:13:05 +0200 <yahb2> id @Int :: Int -> Int
2023-09-05 12:13:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's instantiating that 'a'
2023-09-05 12:13:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold
2023-09-05 12:13:21 +0200 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold ; :: forall (t :: * -> *) m. (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
2023-09-05 12:13:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold @[]
2023-09-05 12:13:25 +0200 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold @[] :: forall m. Monoid m => [m] -> m
2023-09-05 12:13:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold @[] @String
2023-09-05 12:13:28 +0200 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold @[] @String :: [String] -> String
2023-09-05 12:14:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold @_ @String
2023-09-05 12:14:19 +0200 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold @_ @String ; :: forall {w :: * -> *}. Foldable w => w String -> String
2023-09-05 12:14:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> you can also leave out type parameters
2023-09-05 12:14:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t (==)
2023-09-05 12:14:44 +0200 <yahb2> (==) :: forall a. Eq a => a -> a -> Bool
2023-09-05 12:14:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t (==) @Int
2023-09-05 12:14:46 +0200 <yahb2> (==) @Int :: Int -> Int -> Bool
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2023-09-05 15:51:41 +0200 <danse-nr3_> i am using hoogle with a local database for my project, which is really convenient when looking up stuff
2023-09-05 15:51:57 +0200jespada(~jespada@cpc121308-nmal25-2-0-cust15.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
2023-09-05 15:52:45 +0200 <danse-nr3_> i have got the impression that sometimes the server could affect the database, which is very strange. I would expect it to only read the database, but sometimes the server does not behave the same after a restart, as if the database had changed
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2023-09-05 16:15:53 +0200adeptangel(cren@tilde.team)
2023-09-05 16:16:18 +0200 <adeptangel> Hi, beginner question here, can someone help me diagnose the mistake I made with this fold? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/s2zJpTDW
2023-09-05 16:17:11 +0200 <probie> :t foldr
2023-09-05 16:17:12 +0200 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
2023-09-05 16:17:16 +0200 <probie> :t foldl
2023-09-05 16:17:17 +0200 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
2023-09-05 16:18:46 +0200 <probie> :t let alphabetPosChar = (undefined :: Char -> String) in (\cs b -> cs ++ (alphabetPosChar b))
2023-09-05 16:18:47 +0200 <lambdabot> [Char] -> Char -> [Char]
2023-09-05 16:19:26 +0200 <probie> adeptangel: With `foldr` the current element is the first parameter, whilst with `foldl` it's the second
2023-09-05 16:20:30 +0200 <probie> so you need to change the order of arguments in the function you're passing
2023-09-05 16:20:57 +0200 <probie> :t let alphabetPosChar = (undefined :: Char -> String) in (\b cs -> cs ++ (alphabetPosChar b))
2023-09-05 16:20:58 +0200 <lambdabot> Char -> [Char] -> [Char]
2023-09-05 16:21:20 +0200 <adeptangel> probie: ohhh now I feel silly
2023-09-05 16:21:21 +0200 <adeptangel> thanks
2023-09-05 16:21:28 +0200 <adeptangel> fixed
2023-09-05 16:22:22 +0200 <probie> or change from using `foldr` to `foldl` (except never actually use `foldl`, use `foldl'` from the module `Data.List`)
2023-09-05 16:22:27 +0200Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-09-05 16:33:01 +0200 <adeptangel> probie: what's wrong with the standard foldl?
2023-09-05 16:34:31 +0200hays(rootvegeta@fsf/member/hays) (Server closed connection)
2023-09-05 16:34:56 +0200 <geekosaur> thunks build up unless you're very careful
2023-09-05 16:35:41 +0200 <danse-nr3_> https://wiki.haskell.org/Foldr_Foldl_Foldl%27 if you want to deepen adeptangel. foldr is fine
2023-09-05 16:36:34 +0200gatekempt(~gatekempt@user/gatekempt)
2023-09-05 16:38:57 +0200 <adeptangel> wow, that's weird, thanks
2023-09-05 16:39:19 +0200 <adeptangel> (why isn't the more efficient one in Prelude?)
2023-09-05 16:40:22 +0200 <danse-nr3_> as the wiki page says, foldl' is not always the best one to use, and foldr will be fine for most cases
2023-09-05 16:41:39 +0200 <c_wraith> ... foldr is not fine for most cases, unless you like writing the CPS-transform to turn it into foldl' by hand...
2023-09-05 16:43:10 +0200 <c_wraith> It's best to think of the fact that foldr and foldl' have similar names as an accident, and learn what each one *does*. Converting one to the other is awkward in one direction, and impossible in the other.
2023-09-05 16:43:16 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-09-05 16:44:45 +0200caryhartline(~caryhartl@168.182.58.169) (Quit: caryhartline)
2023-09-05 16:46:28 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
2023-09-05 16:47:48 +0200 <danse-nr3_> sorry i oversimplified
2023-09-05 16:47:48 +0200 <probie> :t \f z xs-> foldr (\x k !acc -> k (f acc x)) id xs z
2023-09-05 16:47:49 +0200 <lambdabot> Foldable t1 => (t2 -> t3 -> t2) -> t2 -> t1 t3 -> t2
2023-09-05 16:49:55 +0200 <c_wraith> foldr is really bad when it's used with a function that combines both its arguments strictly. That results in it using stack space proportional to the length of the list.
2023-09-05 16:52:36 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-09-05 16:53:58 +0200caryhartline(~caryhartl@168.182.58.169)
2023-09-05 16:56:22 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-09-05 16:57:30 +0200 <probie> If you're folding over an infinite list, you always have to use `foldr`
2023-09-05 16:57:49 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2023-09-05 16:57:58 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.180.122.37)
2023-09-05 16:58:17 +0200 <EvanR> foldr and foldl' do entirely different things so a rule of thumb might be to not get into the habit of pitting them against each other
2023-09-05 16:59:21 +0200 <EvanR> even though they are named similar and you can implement foldl with foldr, it's not like a bikeshed paintjob question
2023-09-05 16:59:36 +0200 <EvanR> one is probably appropriate and one is not
2023-09-05 17:00:55 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-09-05 17:01:11 +0200 <EvanR> foldl' is your classic accumulating parameter loop, and foldr replaces the constructors in a lazy list with a function or the base value respectively
2023-09-05 17:01:15 +0200 <dolio> > foldl' (\a i -> if i == 0 then 0 else a*i) 1 ([1..10] ++ 0 : [1..])
2023-09-05 17:01:21 +0200 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
2023-09-05 17:04:06 +0200 <danse-nr3_> > foldl' (\a i -> a * i) 0 [1..]
2023-09-05 17:04:12 +0200 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
2023-09-05 17:04:30 +0200 <EvanR> tbf foldr fails on that too
2023-09-05 17:04:44 +0200 <danse-nr3_> =D
2023-09-05 17:04:56 +0200 <dolio> Well, it could avoid it depending on what (*) is.
2023-09-05 17:05:34 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2023-09-05 17:05:41 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
2023-09-05 17:06:03 +0200 <danse-nr3_> > foldr (\i a -> if i == 0 then 0 else a*i) 1 ([1..10] <> 0 : [1..])
2023-09-05 17:06:04 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2023-09-05 17:06:05 +0200 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Integer])
2023-09-05 17:06:05 +0200 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘e_100111001’
2023-09-05 17:06:55 +0200 <dolio> (<>) is too high precedence, probably.
2023-09-05 17:07:13 +0200 <danse-nr3_> > foldr (\i a -> if i == 0 then 0 else a*i) 1 ([1..10] <> (0 : [1..]))
2023-09-05 17:07:15 +0200 <lambdabot> 0
2023-09-05 17:08:14 +0200 <EvanR> it's still gross, despite cancelling early on 0. Because of the chain i*i*i*i*i*i* up to that point
2023-09-05 17:08:40 +0200 <probie> > let take' n xs = foldr (\x k m -> if m >= n then [] else x:(k (m + 1))) (const []) xs 0 in take' 5 [1..]
2023-09-05 17:08:41 +0200 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5]
2023-09-05 17:09:16 +0200 <EvanR> er, ...*i*i*i*i
2023-09-05 17:09:40 +0200 <probie> <bad advice>Just always use `foldr`, but make sure to use it right</bad advice>
2023-09-05 17:10:08 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-09-05 17:10:10 +0200captnemo(~captnemo@193.32.127.239)
2023-09-05 17:10:23 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2023-09-05 17:10:38 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-09-05 17:11:08 +0200 <EvanR> Never give "Always/Never ..." advice because it's Always Wrong
2023-09-05 17:12:26 +0200 <int-e> it says fold right because it's always right?
2023-09-05 17:13:10 +0200 <probie> But also because it subsumes `foldl` and `foldl'`
2023-09-05 17:14:03 +0200 <int-e> . o O ( only if you know that foldr takes 4 arguments )
2023-09-05 17:14:46 +0200captnemo(~captnemo@193.32.127.239) (Client Quit)
2023-09-05 17:15:34 +0200 <int-e> And of course that story falls apart with Foldable
2023-09-05 17:17:30 +0200 <EvanR> foldr the mother of all list functions
2023-09-05 17:18:42 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:5542:f1ee:fb24:2ffc) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2023-09-05 17:19:21 +0200 <probie> The only function you need is `hylo f g = go where go = f . fmap go . g`. All this `foldr` and `foldl` stuff is insufficiently general
2023-09-05 17:20:10 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-09-05 17:20:45 +0200 <geekosaur> sounds like a lot of folderol
2023-09-05 17:21:59 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-09-05 17:24:08 +0200 <int-e> also that `fmap` is not on lists
2023-09-05 17:24:34 +0200Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn91.91-127-22.t-com.sk)
2023-09-05 17:25:01 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-09-05 17:25:08 +0200 <int-e> (well maybe it is, but then you'll be working with unlabelled variadic trees)
2023-09-05 17:26:25 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2023-09-05 17:30:51 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-09-05 17:31:07 +0200migas(~migas@astra4961.startdedicated.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-09-05 17:31:09 +0200migas6(~migas@astra4961.startdedicated.net)
2023-09-05 17:31:20 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.180.122.37) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-09-05 17:37:41 +0200 <probie> % hylo f g = go where go = f . fmap go . g
2023-09-05 17:37:41 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-09-05 17:37:56 +0200 <probie> % :set -XLambdaCase
2023-09-05 17:37:56 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-09-05 17:38:03 +0200 <probie> % import Data.Functor.Compose
2023-09-05 17:38:03 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-09-05 17:38:40 +0200 <probie> % let sum' xs = hylo (\case { Nothing -> id; Just (x,y) -> \acc -> y $! (x + acc) } . getCompose) (Compose . \case {[] -> Nothing; (x:xs) -> Just (x, xs)}) xs 0 in sum' [1..5]
2023-09-05 17:38:40 +0200 <yahb2> 15
2023-09-05 17:41:44 +0200shiraeeshi(~shiraeesh@46.42.245.170)
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2023-09-05 17:46:40 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
2023-09-05 17:50:26 +0200Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn91.91-127-22.t-com.sk) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-09-05 17:55:14 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.180.122.37)
2023-09-05 17:57:10 +0200Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn91.91-127-22.t-com.sk)
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2023-09-05 18:13:48 +0200stites(~stites@130.44.147.204) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-09-05 18:15:04 +0200danse-nr3__(~francesco@151.43.113.4)
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2023-09-05 18:35:20 +0200billchenchina(~billchenc@2a0c:b641:7a2:320:ee3e:47ca:6070:d71a)
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2023-09-05 18:35:48 +0200 <joel135> i haven't seen this hylomorphism stuff before
2023-09-05 18:36:02 +0200 <joel135> but i've seen the löb function, pretty similar
2023-09-05 18:36:05 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
2023-09-05 18:37:13 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:9c2e:82af:913e:28a3) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-09-05 18:39:30 +0200 <probie> :t \f -> let res = fmap ($ res) f in res -- this one, right?
2023-09-05 18:39:31 +0200 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (f b -> b) -> f b
2023-09-05 18:39:40 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-09-05 18:40:32 +0200 <joel135> yes, where f is a "sphreadsheet"
2023-09-05 18:40:50 +0200 <joel135> the former f, not the functor
2023-09-05 18:40:58 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
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2023-09-05 18:55:49 +0200AlexNoo_AlexNoo
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2023-09-05 19:03:49 +0200Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn91.91-127-22.t-com.sk)
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2023-09-05 19:17:48 +0200lex_(~alex@188.26.233.194)
2023-09-05 19:19:36 +0200chromoblob(~user@37.113.180.113)
2023-09-05 19:20:03 +0200 <chromoblob> how best to walk a directed graph in parallel?
2023-09-05 19:20:20 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-09-05 19:20:25 +0200opqdonut(opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-09-05 19:20:32 +0200opqdonut(opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi)
2023-09-05 19:21:43 +0200echoreply(~echoreply@2001:19f0:9002:1f3b:5400:ff:fe6f:8b8d) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-09-05 19:23:17 +0200lex_(~alex@188.26.233.194) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2023-09-05 19:26:01 +0200 <c_wraith> chromoblob: a breadth-first search, or actually parallel?
2023-09-05 19:27:47 +0200hgolden(~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-fc05-5499-f77c-fbe5.res6.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-09-05 19:29:03 +0200danse-nr3__(~francesco@151.43.113.4) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-09-05 19:29:59 +0200 <chromoblob> c_wraith: i'm thinking about walks where threads join for each node's incoming edges and thread splits for each node's outgoing edges, and (in my case) threads cannot communicate; "thread" means just code that in principle can be run in parallel with other threads, but isn't necessarily by a given implementation
2023-09-05 19:30:31 +0200danza(~francesco@151.43.113.4)
2023-09-05 19:30:49 +0200 <chromoblob> and i'm interested about cycle-containing directed graphs
2023-09-05 19:31:47 +0200 <chromoblob> the walk starts a thread in each node with no incoming edges
2023-09-05 19:32:42 +0200 <joel135> does it mean that each graph node waits for a complete set of inputs (indexed by the ingoing edges) before spawning anything?
2023-09-05 19:33:30 +0200 <chromoblob> joel135: well, that's impossible with cycles, of course
2023-09-05 19:33:51 +0200 <joel135> i'll take that as a no
2023-09-05 19:34:31 +0200 <chromoblob> no, forget that "the walk starts a thread in each node without incoming edges"
2023-09-05 19:34:55 +0200 <chromoblob> the walk starts a thread in each given node in parallel
2023-09-05 19:35:02 +0200 <chromoblob> there's just the start set
2023-09-05 19:35:13 +0200echoreply(~echoreply@2001:19f0:9002:1f3b:5400:ff:fe6f:8b8d)
2023-09-05 19:36:59 +0200aaronv(~aaronv@user/aaronv)
2023-09-05 19:38:33 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be)
2023-09-05 19:39:07 +0200hgolden(~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-fc05-5499-f77c-fbe5.res6.spectrum.com)
2023-09-05 19:39:09 +0200thyriaen(~thyriaen@91.197.68.193)
2023-09-05 19:39:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> chromoblob: how do you determine whether to spawn threads at a node or not
2023-09-05 19:39:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you spawn threads for every single edge, your threads are going to be _much_ too granular, even with GHC RTS's lightweight green threads
2023-09-05 19:40:09 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-09-05 19:40:10 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:9c2e:82af:913e:28a3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-09-05 19:40:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> unless processing one graph node is super expensive and worth spawning a thread for
2023-09-05 19:41:05 +0200 <chromoblob> ahh, so, a "performance problem"
2023-09-05 19:41:20 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2023-09-05 19:42:00 +0200 <chromoblob> why is parallel programming so undeveloped
2023-09-05 19:43:11 +0200 <geekosaur> it's not for lack of trying
2023-09-05 19:43:29 +0200 <c_wraith> this is a surprisingly hard problem. if you want efficiency, you need to not duplicate work across threads.
2023-09-05 19:43:43 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a1b:5800:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1)
2023-09-05 19:44:52 +0200 <chromoblob> can my algorithm be expressed as one that forks and joins at *every* node, and then launched on an implementation that only spawns "actual threads" when it's worth to, and uses "stupid" scheduling of threads inside the "actual thread"?
2023-09-05 19:45:37 +0200 <chromoblob> by "stupid" scheduling i mean execute sequentially
2023-09-05 19:45:46 +0200 <chromoblob> (they cannot communicate)
2023-09-05 19:46:38 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm)
2023-09-05 19:48:53 +0200 <chromoblob> c_wraith: how is duplication of work related to granularity?
2023-09-05 19:50:21 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:9c2e:82af:913e:28a3)
2023-09-05 19:51:02 +0200 <c_wraith> duplicated work is a natural property of traversing a non-tree graph, unless you track visited nodes. tracking visited nodes in a parallel traversal implies some form of cross-thread communication
2023-09-05 19:51:38 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-09-05 19:52:39 +0200 <chromoblob> c_wraith: i mean. the threads that are parallel do not communicate, but communication does happen from a forked thread to the children and from the joined threads to the combined thread
2023-09-05 19:53:44 +0200 <danza> sounds like you can make some assumptions about where threads can fork or join
2023-09-05 19:55:00 +0200 <danza> and "forks and joins at every node" sounds like the work is in walking the links actually
2023-09-05 19:56:49 +0200gatekempt(~gatekempt@user/gatekempt)
2023-09-05 19:57:03 +0200 <chromoblob> the nodes are points of "the disjunction counterpart of unification", the operation is applied to all ends of incoming edges and all starts of outgoing edges, and these two results are unified
2023-09-05 19:57:35 +0200 <chromoblob> unified in normal, conjunctive sense
2023-09-05 19:58:52 +0200 <chromoblob> although identities are tricky there
2023-09-05 19:58:59 +0200 <chromoblob> identities of unification
2023-09-05 19:59:03 +0200gatekempt(~gatekempt@user/gatekempt) (Client Quit)
2023-09-05 20:01:11 +0200gatekempt(~gatekempt@user/gatekempt)
2023-09-05 20:01:28 +0200 <danza> is it possible that the graph state does not converge? Or is there an halting condition? What happens if a wave of computation comes back to the same nodes?
2023-09-05 20:03:09 +0200 <chromoblob> danza: if there is a cycle, then a thread should join its own descendant. the multithreaded flavor of fixpoint
2023-09-05 20:03:54 +0200 <c_wraith> how do you even track incoming work? are you storing all the back links for each node?
2023-09-05 20:03:54 +0200 <chromoblob> ok, this is quite complex
2023-09-05 20:04:48 +0200 <danza> i don't see how to model this as threads walking the graph, i can only think of a thread taking care of each node, which seams expensive, so probably a task for green threads at least at the beginning
2023-09-05 20:06:30 +0200aaronv(~aaronv@user/aaronv) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-09-05 20:06:59 +0200 <c_wraith> I mean, this really sounds like a work queue sort of situation
2023-09-05 20:07:15 +0200 <chromoblob> c_wraith: i don't get the question, there is a set of vertices and for every vertex, a set of incoming and outgoing edges... so you just look at the incoming edges, no?
2023-09-05 20:07:52 +0200lex_(~alex@188.26.233.194)
2023-09-05 20:08:11 +0200 <c_wraith> it's kind of uncommon to explicitly store backlinks in some graph reprentations.
2023-09-05 20:08:55 +0200 <c_wraith> if you're using an adjacency matrix, sure you've got them. but adjacency matrices are very inefficient for large sparse graphs.
2023-09-05 20:10:04 +0200 <c_wraith> (admittedly, you could use a sparse matrix representation, if you have one in a library)
2023-09-05 20:10:37 +0200 <c_wraith> if you're using an edge list representation, back edges are rarely included
2023-09-05 20:10:53 +0200 <chromoblob> can't they be trivially included
2023-09-05 20:11:13 +0200 <chromoblob> sure, most of my graphs will be sparse
2023-09-05 20:11:25 +0200 <c_wraith> at the cost of doubling the size of tracking edges and making graph construction and manipulation more complicated, sure.
2023-09-05 20:12:07 +0200 <danza> this makes me think that you mentioned "outgoing" edges, but if they are part of a node's computation, how are they outgoing?
2023-09-05 20:12:13 +0200dy(sid3438@user/dy) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2023-09-05 20:12:57 +0200trev(~trev@user/trev) (Quit: trev)
2023-09-05 20:13:13 +0200jackdk(sid373013@cssa/jackdk) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-09-05 20:13:39 +0200 <chromoblob> okay, sorry, i think a normal fixpoint won't work here, thanks danza
2023-09-05 20:14:14 +0200 <danza> no worries, you made us really curious :]
2023-09-05 20:15:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> re "why is parallel programming so undeveloped" -- as geekosaur said, it turns out to be _hard_
2023-09-05 20:15:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> easy solutions for easy cases sometimes work, but doing something more general and getting decent performance out is actually surprisingly difficult
2023-09-05 20:15:51 +0200 <chromoblob> so, i already described the full problem i want to solve in short in the message which mentions "the disjunction part of unification", i also want it to handle cycles well
2023-09-05 20:15:52 +0200 <geekosaur> people have been trying to solve it since at least the 1970s
2023-09-05 20:15:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> all kinds of approaches have been tried
2023-09-05 20:16:08 +0200 <chromoblob> "all" really
2023-09-05 20:16:20 +0200jackdk(sid373013@cssa/jackdk)
2023-09-05 20:16:27 +0200agander_m(sid407952@id-407952.tinside.irccloud.com)
2023-09-05 20:16:29 +0200econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com)
2023-09-05 20:16:32 +0200dy(sid3438@user/dy)
2023-09-05 20:16:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> the most annoying problems (for task-parallelism, like multicore CPU execution) tend to be communication and granularity
2023-09-05 20:16:41 +0200 <chromoblob> i have an idea for a new processor architecture, if it works well then there will be one more approach
2023-09-05 20:16:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> joins are communication, because they entail synchronisation
2023-09-05 20:17:20 +0200 <chromoblob> but it's to come in some years
2023-09-05 20:17:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> for data-parallelism, like SIMD on CPU and like GPU execution, there's more issues with control flow divergence and data locality
2023-09-05 20:17:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> data locality is a problem on CPU as well, but not quite as severely as on a GPU
2023-09-05 20:17:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> and these are just the high-over generalities
2023-09-05 20:18:10 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
2023-09-05 20:18:19 +0200 <chromoblob> these also are architecture-specific.
2023-09-05 20:18:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> they are, but performance is unfortunately architecture-specific :p
2023-09-05 20:19:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> the best that we've got in abstracting over architecture for performance is "cache-oblivious algorithms", which are CPU algorithms that work with any kind of cache size layout
2023-09-05 20:19:30 +0200 <chromoblob> i think there's guaranteed model-specific architecture-agnostic performance
2023-09-05 20:19:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> but that's just one aspect of the architecture
2023-09-05 20:20:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> how are you going to abstract over CPU and GPU? For a GPU, you need huge amounts of parallelism, where many of those parallel threads are allowed to be doing the exact same operations in lockstep on different, but preferably adjacent, data
2023-09-05 20:21:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> algorithms that run well are going to run acceptably on CPU, but not necessarily very well
2023-09-05 20:23:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> doing anything neat in this area is publication-worthy
2023-09-05 20:23:35 +0200 <chromoblob> if i succeed, i sure will
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2023-09-05 21:10:13 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
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2023-09-05 21:18:47 +0200tv(~tv@user/tv) (Quit: derp)
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2023-09-05 21:37:28 +0200tv(~tv@user/tv) (Quit: derp)
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2023-09-05 21:39:37 +0200jeetelongname(~jeet@cpc96970-rdng25-2-0-cust390.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2023-09-05 21:42:33 +0200caryhartline(~caryhartl@168.182.58.169) (Quit: caryhartline)
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2023-09-05 21:48:08 +0200mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-09-05 21:55:01 +0200bjobjo(~bjobjo@user/bjobjo) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2023-09-05 21:55:40 +0200bjobjo(~bjobjo@user/bjobjo)
2023-09-05 21:55:56 +0200 <chromoblob> okay, i misled myself, this isn't a graph walk, it's a graph map and a parallel unification job
2023-09-05 21:57:14 +0200 <chromoblob> but
2023-09-05 21:57:21 +0200catch22(~catch22@204.40.96.58.static.exetel.com.au)
2023-09-05 21:58:09 +0200mima(~mmh@net-2-38-141-18.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-09-05 22:00:03 +0200 <chromoblob> well, cycle-less graph can be handled by a graph walk, but with cycleful i don't even know yet how it should work
2023-09-05 22:00:25 +0200caryhartline(~caryhartl@168.182.58.169)
2023-09-05 22:03:04 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2023-09-05 22:06:31 +0200drewjose(~drewjose@129.154.40.88) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
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2023-09-05 22:14:53 +0200danza(~francesco@151.43.113.4) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-09-05 23:57:08 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.180.122.37)
2023-09-05 23:59:57 +0200jeetelongname(~jeet@cpc96970-rdng25-2-0-cust390.15-3.cable.virginm.net)