IRCBrowse

2023/06/12

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2023-06-12 00:04:38 +0200bratwurst(~dfadsva@2604:3d09:207f:f650::38e4) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-06-12 00:05:52 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
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2023-06-12 00:16:41 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 00:17:27 +0200 <cheater> nyc: who it was on efnet #math who had an ftp site and would always say "i have detailed files" when a topic they had detailed files on was brought up
2023-06-12 00:17:34 +0200 <cheater> or "i have detailed notes" or something
2023-06-12 00:19:13 +0200Taneb(~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2023-06-12 00:26:33 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
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2023-06-12 00:33:09 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2023-06-12 00:33:21 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
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2023-06-12 01:03:23 +0200mauke_(~mauke@user/mauke)
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2023-06-12 01:08:44 +0200 <nyc> cheater: I don't remember that. What years would this have happened? I was probably most active on EfNet #math from 1995-2000.
2023-06-12 01:09:18 +0200 <cheater> around that time.
2023-06-12 01:09:57 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-06-12 01:10:21 +0200 <nyc> cheater: Sorry, I don't remember it.
2023-06-12 01:10:29 +0200 <cheater> it's ok
2023-06-12 01:10:32 +0200 <cheater> i wonder if anyone has logs
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2023-06-12 01:23:20 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
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2023-06-12 01:28:59 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 01:31:22 +0200 <probie> Is there a safe way to use the new delimited continuation ops in GHC from pure code? Not mixed in, but something akin to `runST`. Can I just call runRW# and hope for the best?
2023-06-12 01:34:56 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 01:35:09 +0200cheater(~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2023-06-12 01:54:51 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 01:56:03 +0200 <c_wraith> probie: nope. There's no high-level interface exposed because they're only safe if you additional requirements.
2023-06-12 01:57:59 +0200hgolden_(~hgolden@cpe-172-251-233-141.socal.res.rr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-06-12 02:11:33 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 02:12:33 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91.159.68.236) (Quit: Leaving.)
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2023-06-12 02:15:04 +0200 <probie> c_wraith: I wasn't asking if there was a high level interface, I think my reference to `runST` was a mistake that confused the issue. Either `runRW#` is what I want and will work in my case, or what I want can't be done.
2023-06-12 02:16:07 +0200 <probie> My reference to `runST` was my promise that there isn't any leakage (so no returned functions that were created by control0#)
2023-06-12 02:16:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 02:16:09 +0200 <c_wraith> oh. Yeah, that's the low-level primitive that runs IO
2023-06-12 02:16:16 +0200 <geekosaur> I'd be wondering what those additional requirements are
2023-06-12 02:16:19 +0200 <c_wraith> Or rather, what IO is unpacked into
2023-06-12 02:18:53 +0200 <probie> It's really just copying the callstack from `control0#` down to the nearest `prompt#` with a matching tag right? So as long as there's nothing weird on the callstack I should be right, I think. I think I'll just play around more and see if it blows up
2023-06-12 02:23:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
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2023-06-12 04:50:49 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-06-12 05:00:00 +0200Taneb(~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0) (Quit: I seem to have stopped.)
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2023-06-12 06:07:03 +0200sukil(~sukil@77.209.8.115) (Changing host)
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2023-06-12 06:27:44 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus)
2023-06-12 06:34:30 +0200fun-safe-math(~fun-safe-@c-24-22-79-16.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) ()
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2023-06-12 07:09:03 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.138) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2023-06-12 07:15:39 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: Exeunt: personae.ai-integration.biz)
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2023-06-12 07:37:17 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
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2023-06-12 08:28:01 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: au revoir)
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2023-06-12 08:43:46 +0200polux(~polux@51-15-169-172.rev.poneytelecom.eu)
2023-06-12 08:43:57 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.138) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-06-12 08:46:10 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 08:48:40 +0200 <jade[m]> what decides the 'reccomended' tag for ghcup?
2023-06-12 08:50:20 +0200 <c_wraith> the maintainer.
2023-06-12 08:52:08 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 08:52:27 +0200 <jade[m]> fair enough
2023-06-12 08:54:07 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 09:00:56 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:9e9e:47e1:5dfd:3f4e)
2023-06-12 09:01:30 +0200mncheck(~mncheck@193.224.205.254)
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2023-06-12 09:37:46 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
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2023-06-12 09:42:11 +0200titibandit(~titibandi@user/titibandit)
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2023-06-12 09:45:26 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 09:47:35 +0200 <kuribas> How do you implement lazy loading of a big tree without lazy IO?
2023-06-12 09:48:02 +0200 <kuribas> Say I have a big tree that I load from an api or from the database, but I want to only download parts that I use.
2023-06-12 09:48:20 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@54.42.150.83.ftth.as8758.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-06-12 09:49:12 +0200 <jade[m]> that depends on a lot of things
2023-06-12 09:49:22 +0200 <jade[m]> mainly the place you are getting the data from
2023-06-12 09:49:38 +0200 <kuribas> an API or a database.
2023-06-12 09:49:41 +0200 <jade[m]> and what format the data is in
2023-06-12 09:49:46 +0200 <kuribas> JSON
2023-06-12 09:49:53 +0200 <kuribas> well, from the API.
2023-06-12 09:50:01 +0200 <jade[m]> kuribas: yeah but those can both have very different structures
2023-06-12 09:50:18 +0200 <kuribas> Let's say the API matches the tree structure.
2023-06-12 09:50:20 +0200 <jade[m]> kuribas: what does the API return?
2023-06-12 09:50:22 +0200 <kuribas> But only one layer.
2023-06-12 09:50:27 +0200 <kuribas> at a time.
2023-06-12 09:50:43 +0200 <jade[m]> so you can get any layer on demand?
2023-06-12 09:50:50 +0200 <kuribas> yes
2023-06-12 09:51:11 +0200 <kuribas> LazyIO seems a good way to do this.
2023-06-12 09:52:15 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2023-06-12 09:52:25 +0200 <davean> I mean you can stick IO actions in your data structure to walk it, you can use recursion schemes, you can use streaming ...
2023-06-12 09:52:32 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 09:53:05 +0200 <jade[m]> davean: I was about to say, that depending on how you query the data, it might already be at the laziest it can be
2023-06-12 09:53:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-004.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2023-06-12 09:53:55 +0200 <davean> yah what is appropriate depends on the operations you have available and how you want to consume it
2023-06-12 09:54:09 +0200 <davean> I can't answer either of those for kuribas but I can list the things they get to choose between
2023-06-12 09:56:07 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 09:59:41 +0200xsarnik(xsarnik@lounge.fi.muni.cz) (Server closed connection)
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2023-06-12 10:01:17 +0200enoq(~enoq@2a05:1141:1f5:5600:b9c9:721a:599:bfe7)
2023-06-12 10:01:45 +0200 <kuribas> well, this is actually Python :) But I wanted to know how to do it in haskell first...
2023-06-12 10:03:16 +0200 <kuribas> I find caching is overused in Python, but it may be appropriate here.
2023-06-12 10:03:52 +0200kn07___(~kn07@2a02:2f0a:c70f:7300:8931:2cff:2fec:9419)
2023-06-12 10:03:56 +0200 <kn07___> hello
2023-06-12 10:04:01 +0200 <kn07___> what religion do you have?
2023-06-12 10:04:56 +0200 <kuribas> kn07___: the static typed religion
2023-06-12 10:05:38 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele)
2023-06-12 10:06:19 +0200gurkenglas(~user@dynamic-046-114-176-034.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2023-06-12 10:09:22 +0200 <kuribas> Credo in unum systema typorum
2023-06-12 10:09:36 +0200tomas(~thomas@user/oats) (Server closed connection)
2023-06-12 10:11:16 +0200 <merijn> I adhere to a strict separation between Church and state :p
2023-06-12 10:11:45 +0200 <kn07___> what about synagogue?
2023-06-12 10:12:07 +0200chromoblob(~user@37.113.180.121)
2023-06-12 10:14:28 +0200 <kuribas> is that a recursion scheme?
2023-06-12 10:16:05 +0200chromoblob(~user@37.113.180.121) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2023-06-12 10:18:41 +0200 <kn07___> I belive it is
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2023-06-12 10:47:15 +0200 <kuribas> I am not that much fan of having a property that actually does call to the API (in python).
2023-06-12 10:47:19 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2023-06-12 10:48:04 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 10:48:12 +0200 <[exa]> kuribas: bUtThAtIsThEmAgIcOfProPeRtIeS
2023-06-12 10:48:14 +0200 <kuribas> Even though it is more safe than doing a file read, it is still rather implicit.
2023-06-12 10:48:53 +0200 <kuribas> I wonder if I should just make it a function, then do some caching to avoid doing unnecessary work.
2023-06-12 10:49:41 +0200 <[exa]> make the cache explicit, pass it to functions
2023-06-12 10:50:04 +0200 <[exa]> then you make the api object explicit and pass it to the cache as "base" info
2023-06-12 10:50:20 +0200 <[exa]> and that allows you to let the users mess it up themselves if they really want
2023-06-12 10:55:43 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a106:3c00::7fe) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2023-06-12 10:55:45 +0200 <kuribas> [exa]: indeed
2023-06-12 10:55:57 +0200 <kuribas> I can make a "session" object
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2023-06-12 14:56:51 +0200 <probie> Given that the haskell reddit has gone dark, an op should probably remove the link to it
2023-06-12 14:57:23 +0200 <mzg> Why dark?
2023-06-12 14:57:28 +0200chromoblob(~user@37.113.180.121) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 14:58:29 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 14:58:48 +0200 <yushyin> mzg: "r/haskell has gone dark to protest Reddit's changes to API pricing. https://discourse.haskell.org/t/r-haskell-is-going-dark/6405 " from the reddit link
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2023-06-12 15:13:31 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
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2023-06-12 15:45:09 +0200 <jean-paul[m]> If I'm not in MonadFail already and I have a value in MonadFail, can I get it out in some other form? As an Either String or a Maybe or something?
2023-06-12 15:47:20 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 15:47:23 +0200 <ncf> what's a "value in MonadFail"?
2023-06-12 15:47:58 +0200 <Axman6> seems to me it would very much depend on which monad you're talking about
2023-06-12 15:48:01 +0200 <ncf> a value of type (MonadFail m => m a), or m a for a specific m that implements MonadFail?
2023-06-12 15:48:38 +0200 <jean-paul[m]> a value of `MonadFail m => m a`
2023-06-12 15:49:09 +0200 <ncf> then you can instantiate it at Maybe or Either e or whatever
2023-06-12 15:49:18 +0200 <jean-paul[m]> well, `(MonadFail m, MonadIO m) => m a`
2023-06-12 15:49:37 +0200blueonyx(~blueonyx@user/blueonyx) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 15:49:48 +0200 <ncf> or MaybeT IO
2023-06-12 15:50:13 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 15:50:25 +0200 <jean-paul[m]> dang, knew I should have learned about monad transformers last week.
2023-06-12 15:50:58 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:b0ef:80e3:428f:1f6a)
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2023-06-12 15:54:09 +0200 <merijn> jean-paul[m]: Not really, because MonadFail isn't really something you're intended to work with. The purpose of it is that do-syntax allows for partial patterns, so Monad used to have "fail :: Monad m => String -> m a" to handle those partial cases. But that kinda sucked, because not all monads have a sensible fail and ideally you'd like to rule out "wrong" (i.e. partial) do blocks at compile time if
2023-06-12 15:54:15 +0200 <merijn> there is no sensible handling for them
2023-06-12 15:54:45 +0200 <merijn> jean-paul[m]: So fail was split off into MonadFail so that do blocks infer "Monad m => m a" ad do blocks with (potentially) partial patterns infer as "MonadFail m => m a"
2023-06-12 15:55:17 +0200 <merijn> jean-paul[m]: But MonadFail doesn't have any API for interacting with/detecting failures, because that's not really what it's for
2023-06-12 15:55:50 +0200 <jean-paul[m]> So a reasonable thing to do would be to rewrite this code so its result isn't in MonadFail but something else, like Either, instead?
2023-06-12 15:56:39 +0200 <jean-paul[m]> (that at least I know how to do)
2023-06-12 15:57:06 +0200 <merijn> jean-paul[m]: That's actually a (mostly?) orthogonal issue. MonadFail is just "any monad that has some sensible 'error' concept if we encounter partial patterns"
2023-06-12 15:57:20 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 15:58:40 +0200 <merijn> jean-paul[m]: So, for example, Maybe is an instance of MonadFail because it means a partial pattern can just be treated as Nothing. But if you have code that should return some sensible error, you want that to be some specific type (e.g. Either)
2023-06-12 15:59:19 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2023-06-12 16:00:15 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 16:02:16 +0200 <Hecate> yes, I believe you may be looking for ExceptT jean-paul[m]
2023-06-12 16:02:40 +0200 <Hecate> (and its MTL counterpart MonadError)
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2023-06-12 18:52:22 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 18:52:59 +0200 <sm> morning all. I see https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/ has gone dark at least for today, but where is the official announcement from the mods ?
2023-06-12 18:53:25 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
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2023-06-12 18:58:13 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 18:58:24 +0200 <EvanR> they must have put it on reddit before going dark
2023-06-12 18:58:40 +0200 <EvanR> like locking your keys in your car
2023-06-12 18:58:46 +0200kn07___(~kn07@2a02:2f0a:c70f:7300:8931:2cff:2fec:9419)
2023-06-12 18:58:56 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 18:59:47 +0200 <ncf> there's a link to a discourse post right there
2023-06-12 19:00:46 +0200 <L29Ah> who needs reddit anyway
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2023-06-12 19:06:22 +0200AlexNoo_AlexNoo
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2023-06-12 19:08:24 +0200 <sm> here's one: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/r-haskell-is-going-dark/6405
2023-06-12 19:08:45 +0200 <nitrix> As someone out of the loop, how is this protest going to help the end users? Reddit has to keep operating and if it's not through pricing agreements, wont it mean monetization through more ads and other bullshits?
2023-06-12 19:08:56 +0200 <sm> they should have announced it on reddit (for feed readers) and given some advance warning
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2023-06-12 19:09:13 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2023-06-12 19:09:23 +0200 <nitrix> Reading the discourse post. Hopefully it gets clarified.
2023-06-12 19:09:56 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 19:10:21 +0200 <sm> reddit's time as a useful community resource seems to have ended
2023-06-12 19:10:25 +0200 <Hecate> nitrix: the end users have given their personal data to Reddit via the use of advertisement for years, and planning to make application developers spit out $20M/year is really mugging them
2023-06-12 19:10:51 +0200 <sm> but there's good and bad ways to transition off it
2023-06-12 19:11:33 +0200mei(~mei@user/mei)
2023-06-12 19:11:39 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-06-12 19:12:33 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2023-06-12 19:12:37 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:4470:5eab:eb0a:5ff1) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-06-12 19:14:26 +0200 <nitrix> Hecate, On desktop perhaps but with third-party apps they don't. The money has to come from somewhere.
2023-06-12 19:14:55 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 19:15:11 +0200 <Hecate> nitrix: you'd be surprised how many users use the desktop site
2023-06-12 19:15:26 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 19:15:48 +0200 <nitrix> Hecate, 25.7% on desktop vs. 74.3% on mobile.
2023-06-12 19:16:07 +0200 <nitrix> And it keeps growing (especially the third-party portion).
2023-06-12 19:16:14 +0200 <Rembane> mobile = Reddit app?
2023-06-12 19:16:59 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2023-06-12 19:19:11 +0200oac(~oac@72-50-214-210.fttp.usinternet.com) (Quit: oac)
2023-06-12 19:19:35 +0200oac_(~oac@72-50-214-210.fttp.usinternet.com)
2023-06-12 19:19:57 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-06-12 19:20:10 +0200 <nitrix> Strikes can be good, though I fell it's just going to force Reddit's hands to turn on the few users that somehow still display ads and attempt to squeeze even more from them while making everyone's experience as a whole worse.
2023-06-12 19:20:20 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2023-06-12 19:20:24 +0200smalltalkman(uid545680@id-545680.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-06-12 19:20:52 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-06-12 19:21:18 +0200 <nitrix> Feels like a lot of people involved aren't thinking it through very much. It's also weird for Haskell communities to take a side in drama crap.
2023-06-12 19:21:23 +0200 <Hecate> many companies have a reasonably good financial health without doing that kind of stuff, I don't understand why we should take pity on Reddit and fear that strike actions are "forcing their hands"
2023-06-12 19:21:41 +0200 <Hecate> nitrix: weren't you around during the Freenode migration to Libera?
2023-06-12 19:21:47 +0200 <Hecate> this is not our first rodeo
2023-06-12 19:22:05 +0200 <nitrix> What about it?
2023-06-12 19:24:46 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 19:26:31 +0200 <Hecate> nitrix: well that's when we protested against the corporate takeover of Freenode and made our opinions known by taking direct action
2023-06-12 19:26:42 +0200 <Hecate> we're not just consumers of social platforms
2023-06-12 19:26:58 +0200 <Hecate> and certainly not sheep that follow whatever some corporate overlords tell us
2023-06-12 19:27:41 +0200lightandlight(sid135476@id-135476.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Server closed connection)
2023-06-12 19:27:51 +0200lightandlight(sid135476@id-135476.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2023-06-12 19:29:19 +0200 <jade[m]> fuck corporations :D
2023-06-12 19:29:28 +0200 <nitrix> You seem confused. Libera is a nonprofit, has sponsors and sustainable.
2023-06-12 19:30:13 +0200 <Hecate> nitrix: and is not spying on its users to make money
2023-06-12 19:30:17 +0200vandita(~vandit@178.164.235.233) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-06-12 19:30:57 +0200 <nitrix> That's the only thing is _can_ do to monetize the users. The users don't want to pay anything and the developers goes on strikes.
2023-06-12 19:31:17 +0200 <nitrix> I don't think you understand the dichotomy created.
2023-06-12 19:32:01 +0200 <nitrix> Anyhow, it's pretty sad that Haskell wants to associate themselves to movements like this. Such unnecessary drama to put your name on.
2023-06-12 19:32:06 +0200vandita(~vandit@178-164-208-245.pool.digikabel.hu)
2023-06-12 19:32:29 +0200 <nitrix> Woke culture getting out of control.
2023-06-12 19:32:50 +0200 <Hecate> yeah, sad story, anyway, how are you doing jade[m] ?
2023-06-12 19:33:10 +0200 <nitrix> Rust is having similar problems currently internally.
2023-06-12 19:36:14 +0200 <__monty__> nitrix: Question, (let's continue in #haskell-offtopic please). How is making moderators' jobs harder a good thing for anyone, including end users and Reddit the company?
2023-06-12 19:39:32 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7)
2023-06-12 19:43:13 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:4470:5eab:eb0a:5ff1)
2023-06-12 19:44:03 +0200 <nitrix> I have no idea but consider that the new situation for a wanna-be Haskell beginner of the community is a blocked medium, who now has to navigate this drama and hopefully arrive at the same conclusion as others if they want to be able to take part and engage with the community even though the matters should be completely external.
2023-06-12 19:44:39 +0200zaidhaan(~zai@2001:f40:960:1c54:3c0f:370:d2d1:4fb9) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
2023-06-12 19:45:37 +0200 <nitrix> Other than that, I think I said what I had to say. It's your problem now.
2023-06-12 19:46:36 +0200cyphase(~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Server closed connection)
2023-06-12 19:46:57 +0200cyphase(~cyphase@user/cyphase)
2023-06-12 19:48:26 +0200 <EvanR> lol wow nitrix chill out
2023-06-12 19:48:55 +0200GhostOfVesper(~vesper@pkts-ggsn-52.167.econet.co.zw)
2023-06-12 19:49:56 +0200 <pyrex> i think i will not have opinions on this but i will go full popcorn mode
2023-06-12 19:50:47 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.138) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-06-12 19:52:10 +0200 <pyrex> (actually, this is the first i've become aware of discourse.haskell.org and i will opine: i really really like that this exists)
2023-06-12 19:54:30 +0200 <nitrix> EvanR, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate. The entire point of a strike is to pesker people so you can raise awareness and force conversations. So if it's also not welcome to have it discussed, people have failed on two fronts.
2023-06-12 19:55:06 +0200kupi_(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-06-12 19:55:21 +0200GhostOfVesper(~vesper@pkts-ggsn-52.167.econet.co.zw) (Quit: -a- IRC for Android 2.1.59)
2023-06-12 19:55:26 +0200 <pyrex> it kind of looks more to me like you disapprove of the strike but have realized that's a controversial stance and are now walking it back!
2023-06-12 19:57:17 +0200 <EvanR> I'm protesting protesting, thereby causing a logical paradox
2023-06-12 19:58:08 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 19:59:20 +0200 <nitrix> pyrex, I don't know what improvements could've been made to the verbiage but my stance is still very much against it.
2023-06-12 19:59:33 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2023-06-12 19:59:52 +0200 <EvanR> "The API pricing is too damn high" ?
2023-06-12 20:00:29 +0200mei(~mei@user/mei) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-06-12 20:00:51 +0200 <pyrex> nitrix: oh ok, i feel you then and won't snark!
2023-06-12 20:01:04 +0200 <pyrex> (it's a valid stance imho and i didn't want to imply that you were actually wrong to be annoyed by it)
2023-06-12 20:01:36 +0200taupiqueur1(~taupiqueu@2a02:842a:8180:4601:ddef:9cc4:d489:d6d3) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:01:42 +0200 <jade[m]> <Hecate> "yeah, sad story, anyway, how are..." <- pretty good, getting my head bashed in at a local show right now 🤟
2023-06-12 20:02:08 +0200 <nitrix> pyrex, Where I don't care very much is the harm that results from it to the community. If the community chooses this then they reap the outcome.
2023-06-12 20:02:45 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:02:51 +0200 <nitrix> pyrex, I don't use Haskell that often anymore, though the community is usually very level-headed and stays clear from this sort of stuff. Usually.
2023-06-12 20:02:55 +0200mei(~mei@user/mei)
2023-06-12 20:03:04 +0200 <pyrex> yeah, i get you!!
2023-06-12 20:04:02 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
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2023-06-12 20:13:01 +0200Errdonald30(~Errdonald@178.46.90.65)
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2023-06-12 20:20:50 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
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2023-06-12 20:25:31 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:25:40 +0200 <ddellacosta> nitrix: "Reddit has to keep operating and if it's not through pricing agreements..." --I don't think most people are disagreeing with this, but I and many others feel that the pricing Reddit proposed was outrageous. It was basically an attempt by Reddit to shut down third-party apps while attempting to look as though they were not. And since the main app I used to access Reddit--Apollo--is
2023-06-12 20:25:43 +0200 <ddellacosta> shutting down as a result, and because a lot of 3rd-party apps shutting down also means that people with disabilities as well as moderators are immediately disadvantaged, I no longer want to support Reddit and I don't intend to use it again unless things change dramatically (which I'm skeptical of). I'm disappointed--I spent a _lot_ of time on r/haskell--but there are plenty of other places out
2023-06-12 20:25:45 +0200 <ddellacosta> there online for us to congregate, including ones that may not yet exist, and which may treat their users better. All of that being the case, please don't characterize people with a position opposed to yours so carelessly using the phrase "Woke culture getting out of control," it's disparaging and dismissive of the actual positions people are taking on this (which is how it is always used); it is
2023-06-12 20:25:47 +0200 <ddellacosta> a deeply tiresome political trope. Please don't bring the conversation down to that level. I think we are capable of discussing our positions with nuance in #haskell.
2023-06-12 20:26:42 +0200 <ddellacosta> ugh sorry for wack formatting
2023-06-12 20:26:53 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 20:28:36 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:4470:5eab:eb0a:5ff1) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-06-12 20:30:31 +0200dhil(~dhil@78.45.150.83.ewm.ftth.as8758.net)
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2023-06-12 20:32:02 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 20:32:08 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:32:20 +0200 <sm> it's a reasonable conversation, happening across all communities right now. Some have had all background and time to discuss and reflect, some are just learning "their" forum and history has gone away without warning or consultation
2023-06-12 20:35:29 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 20:36:09 +0200 <EvanR> on one hand, that crass characterization seems to place the whole issue somewhere in America (instead of the internet). On the other, begin strongly opinionated and poorly informed is truly American
2023-06-12 20:36:35 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:37:04 +0200 <EvanR> oops I meant passionate
2023-06-12 20:37:27 +0200 <dolio> I would be surprised if there wasn't around a week of notice on the Haskell reddit.
2023-06-12 20:37:34 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 20:38:28 +0200 <nitrix> ddellacosta, I don't mind people protesting stuff -- some of the points I agree with and some I don't, like anything it's always nuanced. I don't like when it "infects" things that I believed were drama-free safe-harbours.
2023-06-12 20:39:24 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
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2023-06-12 20:39:38 +0200vandita(~vandit@178-164-208-245.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:39:50 +0200 <nitrix> ddellacosta, Just like in a workplace where you're there to focus on the work, do engineering and whatnot. It's not a place to digest the divisive religious/political/whatever news of the day. I just never liked engineering communities taking any stance, whatsoever. I want them to be neutral.
2023-06-12 20:39:52 +0200 <ddellacosta> Reddit is a company with a lot of investment that it has to show it can make a return on to people other than the users, it was never a safe harbor
2023-06-12 20:41:32 +0200vandita(~vandit@84-236-122-96.pool.digikabel.hu)
2023-06-12 20:41:44 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:42:10 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:43:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 20:45:06 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 20:48:01 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:48:20 +0200 <nitrix> I was referring to Haskellers and Haskell communities.
2023-06-12 20:48:39 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 20:50:19 +0200 <nitrix> I don't want to walk into one group of Haskellers that are strongly pushing some religious agenda, then walk into another group of Haskellers that are strongly pushing some political agenda, then some other group that goes on strikes for Reddit's pricing, and then another for gender/age/sexuality, like, this stuff is irrelevant. When I engage with a Haskell community, I expect to be talking about Haskell.
2023-06-12 20:50:48 +0200 <nitrix> The concept of professional neutrality shouldn't be something that needs to be explained.
2023-06-12 20:50:58 +0200 <juri_> hi. i'm from the free software community.
2023-06-12 20:51:03 +0200kriity(~kriity@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2023-06-12 20:51:04 +0200 <juri_> i have a religious agenda.
2023-06-12 20:51:09 +0200 <ddellacosta> lol
2023-06-12 20:51:20 +0200 <kriity> rad as hell
2023-06-12 20:51:34 +0200 <nitrix> Wow. You're idiots.
2023-06-12 20:51:36 +0200nitrix(~nitrix@user/nitrix) (Leaving)
2023-06-12 20:51:40 +0200 <dolio> Hahaha.
2023-06-12 20:51:41 +0200 <kriity> LOL
2023-06-12 20:51:43 +0200 <juri_> win!
2023-06-12 20:51:44 +0200 <EvanR> what in the world
2023-06-12 20:52:04 +0200 <yushyin> well, finally this episode is over
2023-06-12 20:52:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2023-06-12 20:53:02 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.138) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-06-12 20:53:25 +0200taupiqueur(~taupiqueu@2a02-842a-8180-4601-0906-7ddd-44ff-a642.rev.sfr.net)
2023-06-12 20:53:36 +0200 <pyrex> i am i think a little bit sad that i missed the flounce!
2023-06-12 20:53:55 +0200 <pyrex> i was kind of content to say "hey you are entitled to your _dubious_ opinion" but i guess there was some doubling down
2023-06-12 20:53:57 +0200 <juri_> I really am a free software zealot, and i find the general BSD nature of the haskell community troublesome. but, they do their thing, i do my thing, and hopefully haskell gets better / more used.
2023-06-12 20:54:08 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:54:16 +0200 <pyrex> i am trying to figure out what pissed them off so much!
2023-06-12 20:54:32 +0200 <pyrex> juri_: i don't think your comment was weird!
2023-06-12 20:54:33 +0200 <kriity> oh is there actual context here
2023-06-12 20:54:39 +0200 <ddellacosta> whoops and I was just going to apologize for misunderstanding
2023-06-12 20:55:07 +0200 <pyrex> kriity: i dunno! they were upset about the reddit blackout. (i personally support the reddit blackout)
2023-06-12 20:55:21 +0200 <kriity> ah
2023-06-12 20:55:21 +0200 <Rembane> pyrex: I think there's more to this than meets the eye, like a stomach bug.
2023-06-12 20:55:25 +0200 <pyrex> they described it as woke culture gone mad and complained about how they hate it when they go into software communities and it's suddenly a discussion of gender/age/sexuality
2023-06-12 20:55:25 +0200 <ddellacosta> I just don't understand why anyone needs to be so aggressive, and they didn't really respond to any points or explain what was wrong with it, as far as I can tell
2023-06-12 20:55:40 +0200 <ddellacosta> oh I guess that was it
2023-06-12 20:56:09 +0200 <pyrex> i think my approximate feeling is that like, i have been in very dumb social justice arguments in software communities and i also think that "this is a social justice argument and ipso facto i will treat it as dumb" is a really common derailing strategy
2023-06-12 20:56:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:56:26 +0200 <ddellacosta> yeah, that is definitely the case
2023-06-12 20:56:30 +0200 <pyrex> because like, i dunno, some communities do just have a latent level of racism and sexual harassment or w/e and you can't just not talk about it
2023-06-12 20:56:36 +0200 <pyrex> (because then it continues to happen)
2023-06-12 20:56:52 +0200 <kriity> software communities are 90% tgirls femboys and furries
2023-06-12 20:57:03 +0200 <ddellacosta> hahahaha
2023-06-12 20:57:25 +0200 <pyrex> yeaaaah, it's really common for half a room to silently be lgbtq because like, it really doesn't come up until someone is notably shitty about it and then it totaly does
2023-06-12 20:57:27 +0200 <pyrex> totally*
2023-06-12 20:58:06 +0200 <EvanR> I still kind of don't see the connection between all that and haskell reddit
2023-06-12 20:58:07 +0200 <Rembane> kriity: Hard agree in a good way.
2023-06-12 20:58:21 +0200 <pyrex> i agree that the reddit strike seems based on a different thing
2023-06-12 20:58:23 +0200 <kriity> hell yeah
2023-06-12 20:58:31 +0200 <pyrex> it seems more related to the perpetual war between platforms and their users
2023-06-12 20:58:40 +0200kriitykritty
2023-06-12 20:58:44 +0200 <EvanR> nitrix is a long time community member, I'm sad
2023-06-12 20:58:48 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-06-12 20:58:50 +0200 <pyrex> i guess it's vaguely related in that usually the users who get the shaft first are in some minority group
2023-06-12 20:58:55 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2023-06-12 20:59:06 +0200 <pyrex> EvanR: i vaguely remember them from when i was active years ago? so i am guessing you are right
2023-06-12 20:59:18 +0200 <EvanR> yeah
2023-06-12 21:00:01 +0200 <pyrex> i guess i remember the notably idiotic run of "get brigaded by krainboltgreene's entire twitter friendcircle if you don't add a CoC" incidents from like five years ago
2023-06-12 21:00:11 +0200 <pyrex> or maybe it was longer? i saw that as blatant harassment with like, a figleaf of social justice concern
2023-06-12 21:00:20 +0200 <kritty> what exactly is being protested with the reddit thing? i heard about the api no longer being free, but i'd be kinda surprised to see this many people care about that
2023-06-12 21:00:39 +0200 <EvanR> sure, reddit seems to be a powder keg
2023-06-12 21:01:00 +0200 <pyrex> kritty: people are especially upset because Christian Selig and a few other 3pa devs are put in a very untenable situation by this, since they have subscription-powered apps that now can't provide service
2023-06-12 21:01:15 +0200 <EvanR> ddellacosta posted a pretty good summary of one issue earlier, it's probably in the logs?
2023-06-12 21:01:19 +0200 <yushyin> ironically, they did not stop discussing this topic here instead of -offtopic, even though __monty__ had offered to do so.
2023-06-12 21:01:25 +0200 <kritty> ah
2023-06-12 21:01:29 +0200 <yushyin> :)
2023-06-12 21:01:40 +0200 <pyrex> oh yes i'm sure there's something i'm missing. i don't remember seeing ddellacosta's post, but it's probably here somewhere
2023-06-12 21:01:41 +0200snek(sid280155@id-280155.lymington.irccloud.com) (Server closed connection)
2023-06-12 21:01:46 +0200 <kritty> oh he made Apollo cool
2023-06-12 21:01:50 +0200snek(sid280155@id-280155.lymington.irccloud.com)
2023-06-12 21:02:25 +0200 <pyrex> (EvanR: to be clear, i was bringing that up not because it's relevant to the reddit thing but because i think it was a radicalizing incident for several people who used to be cool where like, i literally agree with the side that was nominally aligned against social justice _in that specific incident_)
2023-06-12 21:02:37 +0200 <EvanR> kritty, https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell?id=987279#trid987279
2023-06-12 21:02:50 +0200 <kritty> ta
2023-06-12 21:03:06 +0200 <pyrex> (i'm mostly bringing it up rhetorically because re nitrix's culture war-adjacent opinions, i feel like if i didn't, there's probably silent observers who imagine i would literally never criticize people who are theoretically on my side)
2023-06-12 21:03:24 +0200 <EvanR> yeah
2023-06-12 21:04:17 +0200 <pyrex> i will admit i'm not really a fan of the "we're software developers, shouldn't we just do our jobs?" thing because sometimes our job might imply doing something actually bad
2023-06-12 21:05:12 +0200 <pyrex> i think i would feel weird throwing my developerhours into improving C++ because it seems like it would empower people who i do not think i should have power
2023-06-12 21:05:22 +0200 <pyrex> who i do not think should have power*
2023-06-12 21:05:24 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 21:05:30 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 21:05:36 +0200 <jade[m]> <kriity> "software communities are 90..." <- :3
2023-06-12 21:06:01 +0200 <pyrex> (<- trans, otherkin)
2023-06-12 21:06:09 +0200leungbk(~user@2603-8000-1201-2dd2-d97b-9387-c7cb-2fed.res6.spectrum.com) (Quit: ERC 5.6-git (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.50))
2023-06-12 21:06:19 +0200kritty_(~crumb@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2023-06-12 21:06:25 +0200 <kritty_> whoops
2023-06-12 21:06:28 +0200kritty(~kriity@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-06-12 21:06:29 +0200 <pyrex> welcome back!
2023-06-12 21:07:32 +0200 <kritty_> i decided to use an actual irc client now i'm so cool
2023-06-12 21:07:40 +0200 <pyrex> nice!! which did you pick?
2023-06-12 21:08:21 +0200 <kritty_> hexchat simply by virtue of it being at the top of the list
2023-06-12 21:08:31 +0200 <pyrex> valid choice!
2023-06-12 21:08:33 +0200 <jade[m]> pyrex: very cool :3
2023-06-12 21:08:51 +0200 <pyrex> while you're here, you may want to get a cloak from libera: https://libera.chat/guides/cloaks
2023-06-12 21:09:08 +0200 <pyrex> it is not at all obligatory but it can hide some of your personal information in the future
2023-06-12 21:09:12 +0200 <pyrex> (ignore me if you already know this information!)
2023-06-12 21:09:14 +0200 <kritty_> ooo thanks
2023-06-12 21:09:20 +0200 <EvanR> is this channel going to get a boost from reddit refugees
2023-06-12 21:09:31 +0200 <pyrex> i'll have you know i'm here because it was my birthday yesterday
2023-06-12 21:09:35 +0200 <pyrex> i was nostalgic!!!
2023-06-12 21:09:38 +0200 <kritty_> that could be nice
2023-06-12 21:09:39 +0200 <EvanR> we've been leaking members to matrix and discord
2023-06-12 21:10:05 +0200 <jade[m]> pyrex: happy birthday!
2023-06-12 21:10:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:10:12 +0200 <pyrex> thank you!!
2023-06-12 21:10:12 +0200 <ddellacosta> I just find discord overwhelming
2023-06-12 21:10:23 +0200 <kritty_> i've been really annoyed with discord replacing forums lately
2023-06-12 21:10:30 +0200 <kritty_> irc has been pleasant
2023-06-12 21:10:36 +0200 <jade[m]> ddellacosta: I just like to avoid proprietary software :P
2023-06-12 21:10:44 +0200 <Rembane> Discord isn't a very good replacement for forums, so it's incredibly unfortunate that it's used that way.
2023-06-12 21:10:53 +0200 <kritty_> very true
2023-06-12 21:10:56 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:11:15 +0200 <pyrex> i like some features of discord but i do not think they will be responsible with their users in the future
2023-06-12 21:11:34 +0200 <Rembane> They'll probably derp out like all the others...
2023-06-12 21:11:40 +0200 <ddellacosta> jade[m]: I respect that!
2023-06-12 21:11:42 +0200 <pyrex> proprietary platforms very often realize "you're stuck" and then go for your wallet, or they try to target a segment of the users you're not in
2023-06-12 21:11:44 +0200 <kritty_> i fall under at least two stereotypes that are known to repeat this but, discord has gotten quite bloated
2023-06-12 21:11:49 +0200 <kritty_> painful to run
2023-06-12 21:12:28 +0200 <pyrex> i do think it is strange that people are moving from reddit to for-profit platforms
2023-06-12 21:13:06 +0200 <dolio> It would be strange if people actually learned their lesson this time.
2023-06-12 21:13:50 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2023-06-12 21:14:08 +0200 <wns> pyrex: reddit was a non-provit?
2023-06-12 21:14:14 +0200 <kritty_> ^
2023-06-12 21:14:15 +0200 <Rembane> dolio: You know one of the more active volcanoes in Europe that has killed thousands in several eruptions? People still live on its foothills.
2023-06-12 21:14:20 +0200 <pyrex> i'm not saying reddit was a non-profit
2023-06-12 21:14:30 +0200 <wns> just that it wasn't making any? lol
2023-06-12 21:14:36 +0200 <pyrex> well, yes!
2023-06-12 21:15:00 +0200 <pyrex> i mean, you get screwed by one for-profit company using the flytrap model, i don't know why you immediately dive on a different one
2023-06-12 21:15:18 +0200 <juri_> irrational optimism?
2023-06-12 21:15:20 +0200 <jade[m]> climate change is also creeping up to kill every last one of us and everyone just shrugs and says "I guess it's an issue, but what can we do"
2023-06-12 21:15:20 +0200 <pyrex> of course for-profit companies provide great service initially at no price to you -- they're trying to acquire your data and they're trying to make you decide it would be psychologically hard to leave
2023-06-12 21:15:22 +0200 <kritty_> ah yeah
2023-06-12 21:15:42 +0200 <EvanR> I judge each new platform on the comfort of their off-boarding experience
2023-06-12 21:16:21 +0200kritty_(~crumb@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-06-12 21:16:58 +0200 <pyrex> (i don't know yet if i think climate change is going to kill literally everyone)
2023-06-12 21:17:24 +0200 <pyrex> (that is not a defense of climate change! i am just expressing skepticism of one of your premises here)
2023-06-12 21:17:40 +0200 <jade[m]> pyrex: if things continue the way they are... yes
2023-06-12 21:17:54 +0200kritty(~crumb@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2023-06-12 21:19:29 +0200 <kritty> open source string & cup telephones
2023-06-12 21:20:41 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-06-12 21:21:23 +0200 <Rembane> The best TCP/IP carrier.
2023-06-12 21:21:29 +0200 <Rembane> Mesh networks ftw!
2023-06-12 21:21:42 +0200 <EvanR> raven scrolls
2023-06-12 21:22:05 +0200 <darkling> Mechanical line-of-sight telegraph.
2023-06-12 21:22:29 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 21:22:52 +0200 <jade[m]> https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Protocol_over_Avian_Carriers
2023-06-12 21:23:44 +0200 <jade[m]> s/de\.m/en
2023-06-12 21:24:24 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2023-06-12 21:24:57 +0200 <kritty> jade[m]: ideal career tbh
2023-06-12 21:25:15 +0200 <kritty> ip over telegram
2023-06-12 21:25:33 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:25:46 +0200 <Rembane> I'm incredibly fond of USB-stick on courier via train.
2023-06-12 21:26:20 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@81.145.206.41)
2023-06-12 21:27:20 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:27:46 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 21:29:05 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:4470:5eab:eb0a:5ff1)
2023-06-12 21:32:11 +0200titibandit(~titibandi@user/titibandit)
2023-06-12 21:32:43 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:33:45 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:4470:5eab:eb0a:5ff1) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:35:31 +0200reverse(~inversed@188.220.172.130) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:36:05 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@81.145.206.41) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:38:41 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 21:39:01 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 21:39:36 +0200Yumemi(~Yumemi@chamoin.net) (Server closed connection)
2023-06-12 21:41:57 +0200Yumemi(~Yumemi@chamoin.net)
2023-06-12 21:43:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:43:29 +0200reverse(~inversed@188.220.172.130)
2023-06-12 21:44:22 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 21:44:43 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f4135445992d9d2781f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:46:06 +0200kupi_(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2023-06-12 21:47:20 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:47:44 +0200 <chromoblob> jade[m]: what's most funny, though, is the edit war over whether to add a dead pigeon's photo as an illustration of packet loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:IP_over_Avian_Carriers#RfC_on_image_of_a_dead_pigeon
2023-06-12 21:48:37 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 21:48:52 +0200 <chromoblob> and now the page is edit protected
2023-06-12 21:49:04 +0200 <chromoblob> temporarily
2023-06-12 21:49:04 +0200 <EvanR> lol
2023-06-12 21:49:06 +0200 <wns> lol
2023-06-12 21:49:07 +0200 <kritty> lmfao
2023-06-12 21:49:19 +0200 <EvanR> those are the kind of debates we need more of
2023-06-12 21:50:07 +0200vandita_(~vandit@94-21-157-160.pool.digikabel.hu)
2023-06-12 21:50:54 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 21:50:55 +0200 <kritty> EvanR: school of athens dot png
2023-06-12 21:51:20 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2023-06-12 21:53:35 +0200vandita(~vandit@84-236-122-96.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:00:47 +0200ft(~ft@p4fc2a88b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-06-12 22:06:56 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:07:53 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 22:08:02 +0200driib(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2023-06-12 22:08:49 +0200driib(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net)
2023-06-12 22:09:47 +0200kn07___(~kn07@5.12.24.174)
2023-06-12 22:10:39 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 22:11:55 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-06-12 22:12:20 +0200P1RATEZ(piratez@user/p1ratez) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-06-12 22:13:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:14:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 22:14:45 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
2023-06-12 22:15:24 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> hmm haskell-offtopic was a bit slow to respond to this so i am trying here,... please do feel free to tell me to go away on this question: what is the relationship, if any, between functional programming and analog integrated circuits?
2023-06-12 22:15:54 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> by that i mean, can it be useful to describe analog integrated circuits with functional programming? is there an established method for doing this?
2023-06-12 22:16:43 +0200 <zero> segfaultfizzbuzz: does that question stem from something you have read?
2023-06-12 22:17:13 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> no i just myself have a lot of trouble looking at circuit diagrams for anything which is not rather trivial
2023-06-12 22:17:19 +0200 <EvanR> maybe you object that this video seems to deal with digital circuits, but I don't know if that matters here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVRYcrhRCes
2023-06-12 22:17:31 +0200 <EvanR> conal starts with functional programming and ends up with circuits
2023-06-12 22:17:42 +0200 <EvanR> by changing the underlying category
2023-06-12 22:18:01 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and i started thinking that it's kinda strange that circuits are basically always coded and represented in "assembly" but programs use abstraction to improve readability
2023-06-12 22:18:52 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> yeah i know there is such a thing as clash and that haskell and bluespec are cousins and soforth,... i don't quite know the language constraints there but for digital circuits it isn't too difficult to imagine the interrelationship there... analog layouts are much more difficult however
2023-06-12 22:18:58 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:19:04 +0200 <EvanR> are they?
2023-06-12 22:19:10 +0200 <EvanR> a circuit is a circuit
2023-06-12 22:19:25 +0200 <chromoblob> segfaultfizzbuzz: Very Large Integral Circuits use abstraction
2023-06-12 22:19:40 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> well,... a circuit may be a mapping from input to output... perhaps? or maybe only certain analog circuits?
2023-06-12 22:19:46 +0200 <geekosaur> verilog and its libraries
2023-06-12 22:19:55 +0200 <EvanR> a circuit is a bunch of devices connected with wires
2023-06-12 22:20:08 +0200vandita(~vandit@85-238-93-40.pool.digikabel.hu)
2023-06-12 22:20:10 +0200 <EvanR> input and output is subjective
2023-06-12 22:20:22 +0200 <chromoblob> nooooo
2023-06-12 22:20:24 +0200 <chromoblob> totally objective....
2023-06-12 22:20:49 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ...wel then what would the representation be
2023-06-12 22:20:51 +0200 <geekosaur> until you have feedback/feedforward
2023-06-12 22:21:13 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> feedback ~ recursion...?
2023-06-12 22:21:35 +0200 <geekosaur> fixpoint combinator 🙂
2023-06-12 22:21:37 +0200 <chromoblob> feedback is like fix
2023-06-12 22:22:32 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:23:21 +0200vandita_(~vandit@94-21-157-160.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:24:08 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:24:53 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 22:24:55 +0200shriekingnoise_(~shrieking@186.137.175.87)
2023-06-12 22:25:01 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 22:25:04 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> well we have some leads on an analog circuit which are exposed to the outside world,...
2023-06-12 22:25:52 +0200 <EvanR> real world is deeply magical
2023-06-12 22:26:21 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> if we don't have inputs and outputs then perhaps what we have is some kind of constraint or energy function of the currents and voltages...?
2023-06-12 22:27:28 +0200shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.175.87) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:27:29 +0200 <geekosaur> and reactances
2023-06-12 22:28:15 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i also struggle with how causality is represented in language around circuits
2023-06-12 22:29:01 +0200 <geekosaur> the analog world is rather more complex than most computer languages can represent (verilog/vhdl being a partial exception, but even it prefers to represent digital circuits)
2023-06-12 22:29:25 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:29:39 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i mean if it exists it can be represented
2023-06-12 22:29:47 +0200 <EvanR> when you said circuit I thought you were talking about the connectivity and physical parameters of the pieces parts. But now I see you're talking about the dynamics of current and voltage
2023-06-12 22:29:57 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> it's not like this stuff transcends the standard model of physics or something ;-)
2023-06-12 22:30:04 +0200 <EvanR> like, a car vs simulation of a running car
2023-06-12 22:30:15 +0200 <geekosaur> "it can be represented" is a much lower bar than you imagine
2023-06-12 22:30:26 +0200 <geekosaur> we can't even model a hydrogen atom…
2023-06-12 22:30:37 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> but the car exists only because there are specifications on the components
2023-06-12 22:30:43 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 22:30:47 +0200 <geekosaur> we know how to represent it, but we can't _solve_ it
2023-06-12 22:30:53 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> you aren't studying a unique alien artifact from space
2023-06-12 22:30:58 +0200 <EvanR> car exists but you wouldn't download one
2023-06-12 22:31:04 +0200 <chromoblob> lol
2023-06-12 22:31:40 +0200 <geekosaur> most analog circuits can only be numerically approximated
2023-06-12 22:31:47 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> what, no, i completely disagree, the hydrogen atom can be modeled to an absolutely phenomenal degree of precision
2023-06-12 22:31:59 +0200 <geekosaur> uh
2023-06-12 22:32:06 +0200 <geekosaur> tell that to physicists
2023-06-12 22:32:20 +0200 <geekosaur> go solve the schrödinger equation for one
2023-06-12 22:32:27 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so if analog circuits can only be numerically approximated, are you saying that analog design is intrinstically empirical?
2023-06-12 22:32:37 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> more like chemistry?
2023-06-12 22:32:54 +0200 <chromoblob> segfaultfizzbuzz: it works if models hold
2023-06-12 22:33:00 +0200 <EvanR> people get by with their subject-matter appropriate models
2023-06-12 22:33:25 +0200jlwoodwa(~jlwoodwa@172.58.84.226)
2023-06-12 22:33:27 +0200 <chromoblob> when models are good, you can design "theoretically"
2023-06-12 22:33:28 +0200 <geekosaur> there are laws which work fairly well in practice (and indeed we wouldn't have reliable digital circuits if we didn';t, because digital circuits are ultimately built on analog circuitry)
2023-06-12 22:33:45 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:69fa:5598:10e8:8066)
2023-06-12 22:33:46 +0200dhil(~dhil@78.45.150.83.ewm.ftth.as8758.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:34:10 +0200 <geekosaur> but, for example, you may have noticed that we no longer see CPU speedups but things like more cores. the approximations _break down_
2023-06-12 22:34:29 +0200titiband1t(~titibandi@user/titibandit)
2023-06-12 22:34:32 +0200 <geekosaur> and then you get things like signal leakage
2023-06-12 22:35:04 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2023-06-12 22:35:09 +0200driib(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-06-12 22:35:12 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> geekosaur: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_structure we even know relativistic corrections, corrections imposed by the effect of the nucleus, etc
2023-06-12 22:35:23 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> geekosaur: not to mention qed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_shift
2023-06-12 22:35:31 +0200driib(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net)
2023-06-12 22:35:35 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:35:58 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> geekosaur: i think the spectrum can be calculated from first principles to something like 14 significant digits (??) if i remember correctly
2023-06-12 22:36:04 +0200 <geekosaur> anyway precisely modeling any but the simplest analog circuit means solving integrals we mostly can't do except numerically
2023-06-12 22:36:16 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 22:36:38 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> geekosaur: well that's interesting,
2023-06-12 22:36:57 +0200 <geekosaur> you can stop pinging me for every single message any time now
2023-06-12 22:37:24 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ...but if a company makes analog circuitry, they cannot manufacture circuits unless the components have specifications
2023-06-12 22:37:37 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-06-12 22:37:47 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and there are no specifications unless there is an abstract representation,... unless you are saying that they say
2023-06-12 22:38:01 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> "gosh we don't know why this japanese capacitor makes this circuit work, but it sure as hell does"
2023-06-12 22:38:12 +0200 <geekosaur> excuse me? you can have specifications witout an abstract representation
2023-06-12 22:38:27 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2023-06-12 22:38:30 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:69fa:5598:10e8:8066) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:38:41 +0200 <geekosaur> most of engineering (not just EE) is built on practical specifications, not first principles
2023-06-12 22:38:49 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so the specification says to use specific physical components from specific suppliers...? that seems to be a bit odd
2023-06-12 22:39:13 +0200 <geekosaur> where did you get that from?
2023-06-12 22:39:32 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> well either you can abstract the circuit or you can't, i don't see a middle ground
2023-06-12 22:39:44 +0200 <geekosaur> maybe your definition of abstract differs
2023-06-12 22:39:52 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> abstract means that i can write down on paper how to make the circuit, hand it to somebody, and then that person could rebuild the circuit on mars from scratch
2023-06-12 22:40:17 +0200 <geekosaur> that's one possible definitiion of "abstract"
2023-06-12 22:40:30 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> cannot abstract means "use this special mineral from this particular mine to make this particular component"
2023-06-12 22:40:45 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:41:05 +0200 <geekosaur> okay, we're using very different definitions of "abstract"
2023-06-12 22:41:16 +0200 <pyrex> i feel like there's a lot of middle ground between your version of can abstract and cannot abstract
2023-06-12 22:41:24 +0200 <pyrex> presumably "can abstract" means one thing and "cannot abstract" is just the negation of that
2023-06-12 22:41:30 +0200 <pyrex> they're not two separate claims
2023-06-12 22:41:35 +0200trev(~trev@user/trev) (Quit: trev)
2023-06-12 22:42:08 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:42:59 +0200 <EvanR> segfaultfizzbuzz, you started with functional programming, which is pretty abstract. Now we are dwelling heavily on the most concrete possible physics we can tolerate?
2023-06-12 22:43:01 +0200 <geekosaur> "abstract" to me means we can describe in terms of interactions between not components but (in this case) forces (voltage, amperage, resistance, capacitance, etc.)
2023-06-12 22:43:19 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 22:43:20 +0200 <geekosaur> I should have known this when you ignored the Schrödinger's equation thing
2023-06-12 22:43:32 +0200 <geekosaur> _that_ is abstraction
2023-06-12 22:43:57 +0200 <EvanR> measurements of material properties and number of decimals is getting a bit concrete don't you think
2023-06-12 22:44:12 +0200 <akadude[m]> Can anyone give advice on thread-local in Haskell? I've found two libraries on Hackage, thread-utils-context doesn't have docs (and repo link is broken) and thread-local-storage have little downloads and doesn't promise garbage collection
2023-06-12 22:47:34 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 22:48:09 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-06-12 22:48:56 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 22:48:57 +0200 <jade[m]> what behavior do you expect from the package?
2023-06-12 22:49:00 +0200 <jade[m]> like what do you need
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2023-06-12 23:02:52 +0200akadude[m]sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/2ba710f9f00523afe75c0e8cfc8208d00b2d…
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2023-06-12 23:14:37 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 23:15:25 +0200 <geekosaur> there is no way currently to promise garbage collection, which has been annoying someone else recently
2023-06-12 23:15:34 +0200 <geekosaur> also this only makes sense on a bound thread
2023-06-12 23:15:34 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 23:16:49 +0200 <akadude[m]> "Bound thread" means a greenthread pinned to a "real" thread?
2023-06-12 23:17:44 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 23:18:34 +0200 <yushyin> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/Control-Concurrent.html#g:8
2023-06-12 23:20:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-06-12 23:20:49 +0200 <akadude[m]> Well I don't need to do any FFI
2023-06-12 23:21:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
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2023-06-12 23:22:39 +0200 <geekosaur> that isn;t the important part
2023-06-12 23:22:51 +0200 <geekosaur> you will not run on the same OS thread unless you use a bound thread
2023-06-12 23:23:08 +0200 <geekosaur> (`forkOS`)
2023-06-12 23:25:37 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-06-12 23:25:46 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-06-12 23:29:47 +0200 <akadude[m]> Doc says "we need `forkOS` because if a foreign library is called from a thread created using forkIO, it won't have access to any thread-local state"
2023-06-12 23:29:47 +0200 <akadude[m]> I don't understand - I am not going to mix thread local memory in my program and FFI
2023-06-12 23:30:39 +0200 <glguy> If the foreign library is using thread-local-state, you need to ensure that each function you invoke in the library is run in the same thread as the previous function you invoked
2023-06-12 23:30:50 +0200 <geekosaur> no, you're using it directly in Haskell instead of via FFI. You still need to be on the same OS thread for it to be there
2023-06-12 23:30:53 +0200 <glguy> doesn't matter if you're using local state in your haskell code
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2023-06-12 23:33:44 +0200 <akadude[m]> geekosaur: That is true only if I use pthread's implementation of thread-local storage?
2023-06-12 23:34:36 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@104-55-37-220.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2023-06-12 23:34:57 +0200 <akadude[m]> (Or any other implementation that depends on "real" threads like Window's implementation probably)
2023-06-12 23:35:06 +0200 <akadude[m]> s/Window/Windows/, s/s//
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2023-06-12 23:37:45 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.218.223)
2023-06-12 23:38:31 +0200 <geekosaur> if you were looking for a Haskell one, it'd have to be built into the RTS, not provided as an add-on package
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2023-06-12 23:39:29 +0200 <akadude[m]> Why?
2023-06-12 23:39:58 +0200ec_(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
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2023-06-12 23:46:49 +0200 <geekosaur> providing it as e.g. a key-value store based on a ThreadId (if that's even possible, as it's neither Ord nor Hashable) would prevent garbage-collecting the thread. see https://hackage.haskell.org/package/thread-local-storage-0.2/docs/Data-TLS-GHC.html for example, and https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.5/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.4.0/Control-Concurrent.html#… for why
2023-06-12 23:47:12 +0200 <geekosaur> and note that the other implementation uses pthreads and therefore requires forkOS
2023-06-12 23:47:44 +0200 <geekosaur> otherwise this needs to be managed as part of the RTS's thread data
2023-06-12 23:47:55 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2023-06-12 23:52:31 +0200 <akadude[m]> ThreadId is Ord :\
2023-06-12 23:52:31 +0200 <akadude[m]> But `Weak ThreadId` is not, unfortunately
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