IRCBrowse

2023/02/06

2023-02-06 00:00:44 +0100danso(~danso@danso.ca)
2023-02-06 00:02:28 +0100bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b098:686c:1177:15a4:77ec:44a0)
2023-02-06 00:02:37 +0100offtherock(~blurb@96.45.2.121)
2023-02-06 00:03:19 +0100 <jackdk> Sandy also defines a couple in the link I posted
2023-02-06 00:04:02 +0100rburkholder(~blurb@96.45.2.121) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-02-06 00:04:04 +0100offtherock(~blurb@96.45.2.121) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-02-06 00:04:26 +0100rburkholder(~blurb@96.45.2.121)
2023-02-06 00:04:32 +0100 <Inst_> weird, not working on ghc
2023-02-06 00:04:37 +0100 <Inst_> erm, ghci
2023-02-06 00:06:02 +0100 <int-e> % class Foo where foo :: Int; foo = 42
2023-02-06 00:06:02 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:18:1: error: ; • No parameters for class ‘Foo’ ; (Enable MultiParamTypeClasses to allow no-parameter classes) ; • In the class declaration for ‘Foo’
2023-02-06 00:06:18 +0100 <int-e> % :set -XMultiParamTypeClasses
2023-02-06 00:06:18 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:06:21 +0100 <int-e> % class Foo where foo :: Int; foo = 42
2023-02-06 00:06:21 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:06:28 +0100 <int-e> % instance Foo where foo = 23
2023-02-06 00:06:28 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:06:31 +0100 <int-e> % foo
2023-02-06 00:06:31 +0100 <yahb2> 23
2023-02-06 00:06:47 +0100rburkholder(~blurb@96.45.2.121) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-02-06 00:07:09 +0100 <int-e> (just `instance Foo` would pick the default implementation `foo = 42`)
2023-02-06 00:09:28 +0100rburkholder(~blurb@96.45.2.121)
2023-02-06 00:09:55 +0100 <Inst_> no, i mean, i can't get auto constraints via type inference, but I guess Sandy McGuire points out
2023-02-06 00:10:12 +0100 <Inst_> how nullary typeclasses aren't a misfeature
2023-02-06 00:10:57 +0100czy(~user@host-140-21.ilcub310.champaign.il.us.clients.pavlovmedia.net) (ERC 5.4.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.50))
2023-02-06 00:10:58 +0100 <Inst_> int-e: i was more complaining that I couldn't get ghc to type infer the constraint
2023-02-06 00:11:19 +0100 <jackdk> see also: HasCallStack
2023-02-06 00:11:22 +0100 <geekosaur> % :t foo
2023-02-06 00:11:22 +0100 <yahb2> foo :: Int
2023-02-06 00:11:27 +0100 <int-e> Ah I see, type inference doesn't work for this.
2023-02-06 00:11:38 +0100 <int-e> geekosaur: that's after providing the instance
2023-02-06 00:11:54 +0100 <int-e> Before that you get "No instance for Foo arising from a use of ‘foo’"
2023-02-06 00:12:21 +0100 <int-e> But you /can/ do let x :: Foo => Int; x = foo
2023-02-06 00:13:05 +0100 <int-e> (maybe newer ghci is better, still using 8.10 by default here)
2023-02-06 00:14:32 +0100 <int-e> % :!ghci --version
2023-02-06 00:15:02 +0100nunggu_(~q@user/nunggu) (Quit: nunggu_)
2023-02-06 00:15:46 +0100 <int-e> % :show linker
2023-02-06 00:15:46 +0100 <yahb2> ----- Linker state ----- ; Pkgs: [base-4.14.3.0, integer-gmp-1.0.3.0, ghc-prim-0.6.1, ; rts-1.0.1] ; Objs: [] ; BCOs: [LinkableM (2022-06-14 17:45:33.292275656 UTC) Yahb2Defs ; [BC...
2023-02-06 00:16:03 +0100 <int-e> Looks like that's ghc-8.10.7 too.
2023-02-06 00:16:08 +0100segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@108.211.201.53)
2023-02-06 00:16:14 +0100 <int-e> based on the version of `base.
2023-02-06 00:16:59 +0100 <int-e> % print GHC.Version.cProjectVersion
2023-02-06 00:16:59 +0100 <yahb2> "8.10.7"
2023-02-06 00:19:09 +0100 <Inst_> int-e: so why bother with type inference, then?
2023-02-06 00:19:16 +0100 <Inst_> erm, the constraint, then?
2023-02-06 00:20:10 +0100 <int-e> Inst_: I don't know; maybe this is why I've never seen this pattern used :P
2023-02-06 00:20:33 +0100 <Inst_> i can stuff a constraint in, the utility seems to be being able to stuff comments into an arbitrary nullary constraint
2023-02-06 00:20:35 +0100 <Inst_> weird feature
2023-02-06 00:21:04 +0100 <int-e> In any case there's no reason for the compiler to disallow it. And evidently (see above) it can be abused to do something actually useful.
2023-02-06 00:21:28 +0100 <geekosaur> the compiler lets you do other useless things too…
2023-02-06 00:22:07 +0100czy(~user@host-140-21.ilcub310.champaign.il.us.clients.pavlovmedia.net)
2023-02-06 00:22:19 +0100 <int-e> Inst_: I mean, compared to changing all functiont to `Int -> a`, if you have `Foo => a` instead you're (mostly; ghc's overlap check isn't perfect) guaranteed that every such function will receive the same value, statically.
2023-02-06 00:22:31 +0100 <geekosaur> @let Just _ = Nothing -- unusable top level binding so never discovers the pattern match fails
2023-02-06 00:22:33 +0100 <lambdabot> Defined.
2023-02-06 00:22:50 +0100harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:c180:a570:3828:d8:e523:3f67) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-02-06 00:22:58 +0100 <int-e> Inst_: maybe there's a place where this kind of thing has value
2023-02-06 00:23:02 +0100int-eshrugs
2023-02-06 00:23:03 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:e5a6:1cca:cd92:c20)
2023-02-06 00:23:03 +0100unit73e(~emanuel@2001:818:e8dd:7c00:656:e5ff:fe72:9d36)
2023-02-06 00:23:08 +0100danza(~francesco@151.44.152.227) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-02-06 00:23:17 +0100 <geekosaur> I think the only use I've seen for that was some kind of hacker contest
2023-02-06 00:23:32 +0100 <Inst_> w/e, it's exotic, and I guess it's Haskelly to let people mess around and find ways to abuse nullary typeclasses
2023-02-06 00:25:19 +0100czy`(~user@host-140-21.ilcub310.champaign.il.us.clients.pavlovmedia.net)
2023-02-06 00:25:26 +0100czy`(~user@host-140-21.ilcub310.champaign.il.us.clients.pavlovmedia.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-02-06 00:25:53 +0100stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-02-06 00:25:59 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-02-06 00:28:24 +0100 <int-e> Inst_: The fact that `:t foo` breaks when there's no instance indicates that people don't really use this feature; that smells like a bug and I would be surprised if it was super difficult to fix.
2023-02-06 00:29:39 +0100 <Inst_> okay, posting to GHC issues now
2023-02-06 00:29:50 +0100stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2023-02-06 00:29:56 +0100 <int-e> maybe there is one already?
2023-02-06 00:31:53 +0100 <unit73e> good thing there's a log or I'd get very confused since I just joined
2023-02-06 00:32:18 +0100jinsunGuest5295
2023-02-06 00:32:19 +0100jinsun__(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2023-02-06 00:32:19 +0100Guest5295(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Killed (cadmium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2023-02-06 00:32:19 +0100jinsun__jinsun
2023-02-06 00:33:10 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:e5a6:1cca:cd92:c20) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-02-06 00:34:04 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:e5a6:1cca:cd92:c20)
2023-02-06 00:35:54 +0100 <Inst_> done
2023-02-06 00:35:55 +0100 <Inst_> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22907
2023-02-06 00:36:26 +0100 <Inst_> tried nullary typeclass, nullary type parameter
2023-02-06 00:36:44 +0100 <jackdk> int-e: That would force every caller of a HasCallStack function to add it to their context, no?
2023-02-06 00:37:51 +0100 <int-e> Inst_: Where's the "where" keyword?
2023-02-06 00:38:02 +0100 <Inst_> class Foo works
2023-02-06 00:38:45 +0100danza(~francesco@151.47.50.166)
2023-02-06 00:38:54 +0100 <int-e> % :quit
2023-02-06 00:38:54 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:38:57 +0100 <int-e> % class Foo
2023-02-06 00:38:57 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:39:06 +0100 <int-e> % u :: Foo => Int; u = 3
2023-02-06 00:39:06 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:39:10 +0100 <int-e> % u
2023-02-06 00:39:10 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:8:1: error: ; • No instance for Foo arising from a use of ‘u’ ; • In the expression: u ; In an equation for ‘it’: it = u
2023-02-06 00:39:14 +0100 <int-e> % :t u
2023-02-06 00:39:14 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:1: error: ; • No instance for Foo arising from a use of ‘u’ ; • In the expression: u
2023-02-06 00:39:32 +0100 <Inst_> % :quit
2023-02-06 00:39:32 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:39:38 +0100 <Inst_> %: class Foo where
2023-02-06 00:39:45 +0100 <Inst_> % u :: Foo => Int; u = 3
2023-02-06 00:39:45 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:4:6: error: ; Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Foo’
2023-02-06 00:39:58 +0100 <Inst_> % class Foo where
2023-02-06 00:39:58 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:40:02 +0100 <Inst_> % u :: Foo => Int; u = 3
2023-02-06 00:40:02 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:40:03 +0100 <Inst_> u
2023-02-06 00:40:05 +0100 <Inst_> % u
2023-02-06 00:40:05 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:10:1: error: ; • No instance for Foo arising from a use of ‘u’ ; • In the expression: u ; In an equation for ‘it’: it = u
2023-02-06 00:40:13 +0100 <Inst_> % instance Foo
2023-02-06 00:40:13 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:40:18 +0100 <Inst_> % u
2023-02-06 00:40:18 +0100 <yahb2> 3
2023-02-06 00:40:46 +0100 <int-e> all that is expected
2023-02-06 00:40:47 +0100czy(~user@host-140-21.ilcub310.champaign.il.us.clients.pavlovmedia.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-02-06 00:40:57 +0100 <Inst_> % :quit
2023-02-06 00:40:57 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-02-06 00:40:58 +0100 <int-e> what isn't expected (to me) is that :t u fails
2023-02-06 00:42:52 +0100 <int-e> and, relatedly, that defining non-monomorphic functions using Foo also fails: v () = u gives a type error instead of inferring v :: Foo => () -> Int
2023-02-06 00:44:23 +0100 <int-e> Inst_: if you expand the "steps to reproduce" in the description, it will be a much better report.
2023-02-06 00:44:39 +0100tessier(~treed@mobile-166-170-47-107.mycingular.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-02-06 00:47:05 +0100 <Inst_> done, as per requested
2023-02-06 01:02:29 +0100 <int-e> Inst_: note that class Foo where foo :: Int; foo = 23 does (and should) not declare an instance. Rather, the `foo = 23` is a *default* implementation for `foo` that is picked if you just write `instance Foo` without implementing `foo` for that instance.
2023-02-06 01:02:41 +0100 <int-e> Inst_: that's why I think what you reported is expected behavior.
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2023-02-06 03:13:17 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@125x103x176x34.ap125.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
2023-02-06 03:15:47 +0100use-value(~Thunderbi@2a00:23c6:8a03:2f01:75c2:a71f:beaa:29bf) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-02-06 03:17:36 +0100freeside(~mengwong@103.252.202.170) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-02-06 03:18:36 +0100 <Hammdist> type X = (a, b, c) ... is it expected that I can't do fst on an instance of x?
2023-02-06 03:18:46 +0100bhall(~brunohall@85.255.236.24) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-02-06 03:18:47 +0100freeside(~mengwong@103.252.202.170)
2023-02-06 03:19:00 +0100bhall(~brunohall@195.147.207.136)
2023-02-06 03:19:25 +0100 <Hammdist> ah I see how on hoogle I must use fstOf3
2023-02-06 03:21:20 +0100Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2023-02-06 03:25:49 +0100 <monochrom> fst is for (a,b) only.
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2023-02-06 05:01:59 +0100 <EvanR> Hammdist, either write your own second accessors for triples, use a descriptive record type, or use lens, (or other options)
2023-02-06 05:02:15 +0100 <EvanR> s/second//
2023-02-06 05:03:30 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-02-06 05:04:11 +0100 <jackdk> Asking this sort of question makes me think you're pretty early in your learning journey, so I think "write your own accessor" or "define a record types" are going to be the options with the least additional stuff to learn.
2023-02-06 05:04:32 +0100 <jackdk> but also, "use `case` to do a pattern match" is the solution to a great many Haskell questions
2023-02-06 05:06:24 +0100myxokeph(~myxokeph@cpe-65-28-251-121.cinci.res.rr.com) (Quit: myxokeph)
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2023-02-06 05:15:12 +0100 <Inst_> int-e, it's sort of silly, but
2023-02-06 05:15:27 +0100 <Inst_> w/e, it doesn't matter
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2023-02-06 06:34:30 +0100 <Hammdist> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-8.10.2/docs/src/Var.html#Var <-- how do I import this?
2023-02-06 06:34:50 +0100 <Hammdist> (the obvious import GHC.Var doesn't work)
2023-02-06 06:36:24 +0100xeelad(~xeelad@151.202.46.37) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-02-06 06:36:38 +0100xeelad(~xeelad@151.202.46.37)
2023-02-06 06:36:49 +0100 <Hammdist> ah I'm on a newer version
2023-02-06 06:37:03 +0100 <Hammdist> it imports as GHC.Types.Var
2023-02-06 06:37:37 +0100 <Hammdist> but I cannot use the constructor GHC.Types.Var.TyVar in my code: NB: the module ‘GHC.Types.Var’ does not export ‘TyVar’
2023-02-06 06:38:56 +0100 <Hammdist> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/libraries/ghc-9.4.4/src/GHC.Types.Var.html it looks exported though
2023-02-06 06:48:34 +0100 <Hammdist> ah stumbled across isTyVar which looks like it's hopefully what I need
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2023-02-06 09:01:29 +0100mastarija(~mastarija@2a05:4f46:e03:6000:8e09:9c71:64ab:3f22)
2023-02-06 09:02:02 +0100 <mastarija> So, when I do this: boot.kernelPackages = pkgs.linuxPackages_latest; my system builds fine
2023-02-06 09:02:19 +0100 <mastarija> However, if I add this line: services.xserver.videoDrivers = [ "amdgpu-pro" ];
2023-02-06 09:02:58 +0100 <mastarija> It says boot.kernelPackages defined multiple times
2023-02-06 09:03:42 +0100 <mastarija> Removing the boot.kernelPackages line makes it work OK.
2023-02-06 09:04:00 +0100 <mastarija> But then my system doesn't work because stock kernel doesn't support certain hardware that I have.
2023-02-06 09:05:41 +0100 <mastarija> And if instead of xserver config I keep my kernelPackages settings, and do this:
2023-02-06 09:05:50 +0100 <mastarija> boot.initrd.kernelModules = [ "amdgpu-pro" ];
2023-02-06 09:05:58 +0100 <mastarija> boot.extraModulePackages = with config.boot.kernelPackages; [ amdgpu-pro.kmod ];
2023-02-06 09:06:34 +0100 <mastarija> I get a build error
2023-02-06 09:06:49 +0100 <mastarija> Ugh. wrong channel again
2023-02-06 09:06:51 +0100 <mastarija> Sorry
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2023-02-06 11:35:24 +0100 <kuribas> Anyone at the FOSDEM yesterday?
2023-02-06 11:35:34 +0100glguy(~glguy@libera/staff-emeritus/glguy)
2023-02-06 11:36:03 +0100 <kuribas> There was an interesting talk by David Christiansen, where he said haskellers don't like heavyweight methods, but prefer correct by construction.
2023-02-06 11:36:32 +0100 <kuribas> However it does seem to me the dependent type people do like heavy formal methods.
2023-02-06 11:38:06 +0100caryhartline(~caryhartl@2600:1700:2d0:8d30:4d63:2b4e:3c7:c9ea) (Quit: caryhartline)
2023-02-06 11:38:45 +0100 <Hecate> kuribas: yes but DT people are not the bulk of Haskellers :P
2023-02-06 11:39:08 +0100 <kuribas> haha, indeed
2023-02-06 11:41:06 +0100 <kuribas> I did hear Edwin Brady (creator of idris) make this remark as well, just having dependent types doesn't mean you now have to proof every property or invariant in the program.
2023-02-06 11:41:47 +0100 <kuribas> I am more in the "correct by construction" camp, rather than writing external proofs (or tests) about code.
2023-02-06 11:42:25 +0100 <kuribas> Except when correct by construction turns out more complicated than just writing a unit test or property test suite.
2023-02-06 11:42:40 +0100santiagopim(~user@90.167.66.131)
2023-02-06 11:43:13 +0100mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@2001:999:780:2e68:ee5b:40a6:f4a:68b1)
2023-02-06 11:47:30 +0100 <Hecate> kuribas: as I say in my talk, the "correct by construction" paradigm has to be accompanied by tests, in Haskell
2023-02-06 11:47:34 +0100 <Hecate> since we don't have proofs
2023-02-06 11:48:19 +0100 <kuribas> Doesn't correct by construction imply you don't need to test?
2023-02-06 11:49:01 +0100 <kuribas> By definition I mean.
2023-02-06 11:49:45 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-010.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2023-02-06 11:49:45 +0100 <Hecate> kuribas: you have to prove that the construction itself is correct
2023-02-06 11:49:56 +0100 <Hecate> and we don't have proofs in Haskell
2023-02-06 11:49:58 +0100 <Hecate> so it's tests
2023-02-06 11:51:54 +0100patrl(~patrl@p200300d1473a221e1ddaaf5b554dbea8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-02-06 11:53:12 +0100 <kuribas> I usually don't bother about that, maybe some messing around on the REPL.
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2023-02-06 11:54:31 +0100 <kuribas> But I suppose it makes sense when the construction becomes more complicated...
2023-02-06 11:55:46 +0100 <kuribas> I see more need for testing when the invariants are not enforced.
2023-02-06 11:58:00 +0100Xeroine(~Xeroine@user/xeroine) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+b1 - https://znc.in)
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2023-02-06 12:05:21 +0100 <dminuoso> "correct by construction" is also misleading, since correctness is only up to the properties imbued by its construction.
2023-02-06 12:05:50 +0100 <dminuoso> It can, especially in discussions with others, easily give the impression that one is suggesting complete absence of bugs.
2023-02-06 12:06:23 +0100 <dminuoso> Plus things like `bottom` by itself make `correct by construction` only `mostly correct`
2023-02-06 12:06:54 +0100 <Hecate> thank you for this phrasing dminuoso
2023-02-06 12:07:24 +0100 <Hecate> kuribas: so basically "correct by construction" is only a superficial aspect, you still need to make larger, cross-context invariants hold
2023-02-06 12:07:37 +0100 <kuribas> right
2023-02-06 12:07:39 +0100 <Hecate> hence tests or temporal logic systems like TLA
2023-02-06 12:08:52 +0100 <kuribas> Like my library can prove the SQL query matches the schema you provided. However it doesn't check that the SQL is valid SQL, or that the schema used it the actual one in production.
2023-02-06 12:09:21 +0100 <kuribas> Nor does it actually prove the query does what you expect it to.
2023-02-06 12:09:42 +0100mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@2001:999:780:2e68:ee5b:40a6:f4a:68b1) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2023-02-06 12:10:34 +0100 <kuribas> So the "correct by construction" only applies to the schema, and the given one.
2023-02-06 12:10:54 +0100 <kuribas> Hecate: however note that you would have the exact same problem with proofs!
2023-02-06 12:12:37 +0100 <dminuoso> One of the revelations I had over the past few years, was thinking about value of tests. Some Haskellers easily find themselves spending extraordinary amounts of time on some formal systems proving the absence of certain bugs, without any demonstration that the bugs the system will guard against are likely to occur, or could be reasonably caught with some very basic discipline instead.
2023-02-06 12:12:48 +0100 <dminuoso> Things like effect systems go into that department
2023-02-06 12:13:27 +0100 <dminuoso> And all my attempts at exploring such systems were mostly misguided, "claims of bugfreeness" were mostly excuses to do some wild experiments, while at the same time ignoring the massive ergonomic inconveniences that type level tricks add to your program
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2023-02-06 12:22:49 +0100kaskal(~kaskal@089144220250.atnat0029.highway.webapn.at)
2023-02-06 12:25:44 +0100brandonh(~brandonh@93-38-48-28.ip69.fastwebnet.it)
2023-02-06 12:29:34 +0100zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a214:1e00::7fe) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2023-02-06 12:29:52 +0100__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2023-02-06 12:33:21 +0100 <Hecate> yep
2023-02-06 12:33:31 +0100 <Hecate> don't drink too much of the kool-aid
2023-02-06 12:34:47 +0100 <kuribas> I am in the same camp. Thoses systems are fun and interesting, but if I need a practical program I prefer to keep it simple, and write some tests.
2023-02-06 12:35:10 +0100 <kuribas> Even for mtl, I only use it as some glue that let's me avoid tedious code.
2023-02-06 12:35:15 +0100bhall(~brunohall@195.147.207.136) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-02-06 12:35:24 +0100bhall(~brunohall@85.255.236.21)
2023-02-06 12:36:22 +0100 <Hecate> can mtl bring you more than that? :p
2023-02-06 12:36:39 +0100 <dminuoso> Well, mtl is a precursor to a full blown effect system. :p
2023-02-06 12:36:54 +0100 <dminuoso> (or it is a tiny effect system in a box)
2023-02-06 12:37:32 +0100 <kuribas> Hecate: I mean, I write my own monad for my library, but use mtl to implement. However I don't expose the mtl classes like many libraries do.
2023-02-06 12:37:52 +0100 <Hecate> aye but effect systems bring more semantic tracking of effects, I have some trouble relating them to proofs of soundness
2023-02-06 12:37:56 +0100 <Hecate> kuribas: ah yes I see what you mean
2023-02-06 12:38:01 +0100 <Hecate> fine :)
2023-02-06 12:38:50 +0100 <opqdonut> well "this component can only make side-effects of this type" is related to soundness, right?
2023-02-06 12:39:24 +0100 <opqdonut> everything in types is about tracking invariants, and invariants are interesting because of soundness
2023-02-06 12:39:49 +0100 <opqdonut> or did you have a specific meaning of soundness in mind?
2023-02-06 12:39:52 +0100 <Hecate> yes sorry in my mind I was still thinking of the invariants that you check through temporal logic & integration tests
2023-02-06 12:40:00 +0100 <Hecate> so, the stuff that you test even with Ruby/Python/C
2023-02-06 12:40:28 +0100 <Hecate> at work we use Effectful for semantic tracking of effects
2023-02-06 12:40:36 +0100 <Hecate> but also a shit-tonne of tests
2023-02-06 12:40:37 +0100 <dminuoso> opqdonut: Code can become quite inconvenient to write, because in order to correctly track effects, you cannot have MonadIO anywhere.
2023-02-06 12:40:45 +0100 <opqdonut> traditional OO testing actually tracks effects pretty closely
2023-02-06 12:40:49 +0100 <dminuoso> So once MonadIO appears, your soundness disappears.
2023-02-06 12:40:57 +0100 <opqdonut> yeah, agreed
2023-02-06 12:41:25 +0100 <opqdonut> I mean stuff like dependency injection and test fixtures kinda prove that the component under test only needs these certain types of effects
2023-02-06 12:41:54 +0100 <Hecate> I love passing arguments to function
2023-02-06 12:41:57 +0100 <Hecate> *functions
2023-02-06 12:43:21 +0100 <opqdonut> right! the most fine-grained effect system is passing callbacks constrained with `Monad m => X -> m Y`
2023-02-06 12:45:34 +0100 <Hecate> context: https://github.com/haskell-effectful/effectful/discussions/137#discussioncomment-4870371
2023-02-06 12:45:35 +0100 <dminuoso> In part this may also be an architectural problem. If you look at the internal architecture of postfix, components are not limited because an effect system constrains it, but because components can only interact with limited IPC channels (mostly mail files)
2023-02-06 12:46:06 +0100 <opqdonut> yeah
2023-02-06 12:46:17 +0100 <Hecate> opqdonut: In the end, an integrated effect system ought to compile the list of effects as arguments to the functions
2023-02-06 12:46:22 +0100 <opqdonut> another nice low-tech way is to just restrict module dependencies with a linter rule
2023-02-06 12:46:36 +0100 <Hecate> (from what I understand in terms of generating performant code, perhaps I am wrong)
2023-02-06 12:47:33 +0100 <Hecate> of course monads are not a great vessel for this since the excessive polymorphism of your `m` prevents it from being inlined in real-case scenarios
2023-02-06 12:47:59 +0100 <Hecate> and if you force the exposure of all unfoldings, and aggressive inlining, your 700 modules codebase suddenly takes 2 hours to compile
2023-02-06 12:48:36 +0100 <Hecate> (and in my heart I believe we should be able to have higher-level programming languages that are not inherently hostile to lower-end hardware, for development and production)
2023-02-06 12:49:02 +0100 <dminuoso> Symbolic evaluation can also be a vehicle to test whether or not components are constrained, which I guess is a kind of mocking.
2023-02-06 12:49:11 +0100 <dminuoso> Not quite sure how widely that is done
2023-02-06 12:49:51 +0100 <dminuoso> But at least this could be done outside of GHC (perhaps residing inside comments, similar to liquid haskell)
2023-02-06 12:50:04 +0100patrl(~patrl@user/patrl) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
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2023-02-06 12:52:56 +0100 <Hecate> one cultural problem that was outlined in David's talk at FOSDEM: We have too much disdain for things we consider "pedestrian" *and* simultaneously don't care much about doings things the right way when we have to make external components that interface with haskell
2023-02-06 12:53:27 +0100 <Hecate> writing tests is hard but also not paper-worthy and this has left a huge, negative mark in our common psyche
2023-02-06 12:54:35 +0100maroloccio(~marolocci@90.166.18.199) (Quit: WeeChat 3.7.1)
2023-02-06 13:03:17 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@145.94.153.3)
2023-02-06 13:06:42 +0100danza(~francesco@151.35.84.26)
2023-02-06 13:07:21 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2023-02-06 13:08:26 +0100 <kuribas> tests did leave me with some kind of trauma, but it was more because those tests where to mask bad software practices, the tests itself where also badly written.
2023-02-06 13:09:26 +0100 <kuribas> I actually do believe TDD has good ideas.
2023-02-06 13:09:43 +0100 <kuribas> The idea is that you should first think about behaviour and make it concrete.
2023-02-06 13:09:58 +0100 <kuribas> But TDD in practice revolves around gaming your implementation instead.
2023-02-06 13:10:21 +0100 <kuribas> It's not about behaviour anymore, but about tedious fixing every small implementation detail.
2023-02-06 13:11:20 +0100alex`(~user@97.red-83-36-47.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2023-02-06 13:15:52 +0100 <alex`> Hi there, I'm looking for an example of how to print out a typewriter effect. That is, given a phrase "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog", print out T (then 1000ms delay), Th (another 100ms delay) up until the end of the character in the sentence. Anybody able to help point me in the right direction, please?
2023-02-06 13:16:46 +0100patrl(~patrl@user/patrl)
2023-02-06 13:17:18 +0100 <Hecate> kuribas: yes
2023-02-06 13:18:27 +0100 <Hecate> alex`: so, this is going to be fun, but you should watch videos of people typing on typewriters, and note what kind of key clusters are usually grouped, and what kind have a delay
2023-02-06 13:19:47 +0100 <alex`> Hi Hecate, yes, that would be cool but I'm afraid I'm still very much a beginner.
2023-02-06 13:20:17 +0100 <alex`> I think I'm stuck at the IO level.
2023-02-06 13:20:25 +0100 <Hecate> ah!
2023-02-06 13:20:29 +0100 <Hecate> do you have code already?
2023-02-06 13:21:23 +0100 <alex`> I was looking at the setReminder code here: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/ch07.html
2023-02-06 13:23:01 +0100 <alex`> I wanted to send the auxillary function each character in a recursive loop.
2023-02-06 13:24:13 +0100 <jadey[m]> [I can't look at it right now]
2023-02-06 13:24:13 +0100 <jadey[m]> So what you want is sequential IO actions in the form `print >> delay` right
2023-02-06 13:24:50 +0100 <alex`> The code seems to do that with threadM.
2023-02-06 13:25:00 +0100 <dminuoso> alex`: Im just assuming you want something very basic
2023-02-06 13:25:00 +0100 <jadey[m]> alex`: this sounds like a good start, and you combine it with the idea I mentioned to print, delay, print, delay, etc.
2023-02-06 13:25:09 +0100 <alex`> I mean threadDelay
2023-02-06 13:25:09 +0100 <dminuoso> That guide seems overly complicated touching subjects not relevant for your problem
2023-02-06 13:25:26 +0100 <dminuoso> And yes, you just use threadDelay to wait for a while.
2023-02-06 13:25:51 +0100talismanick(~talismani@2601:200:c181:4c40::1be2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-02-06 13:25:56 +0100 <Hecate> alex`: yes that's how you'd do it. Split your string in clusters of 3 characters, iterate on the list of clusters and the action is "sleep 100ms ; print the cluster"
2023-02-06 13:26:01 +0100 <dminuoso> Use `for_` or `traverse_` to iterate over every character in a string, use `threadDelay` to wait as much as you want, and then use `putChar` to print each character to stdout.
2023-02-06 13:26:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@145.90.225.11)
2023-02-06 13:26:07 +0100 <jadey[m]> What I would do is start with implementing `printWithDelay :: Char -> Int -> IO ()`
2023-02-06 13:26:32 +0100 <gnalzo> is there a simple sleep function, to be used instead.
2023-02-06 13:27:01 +0100 <dminuoso> Yes, its called threadDelay
2023-02-06 13:27:18 +0100 <gnalzo> Using ThreadIO seems to be over complex to me.
2023-02-06 13:27:22 +0100 <dminuoso> The name has this confusing word `thread` in it, it probably should have just been named `sleep`.
2023-02-06 13:27:28 +0100 <dminuoso> gnalzo: it has nothing to do with threads really.
2023-02-06 13:27:45 +0100 <dminuoso> Its just named this way, because in a multi threaded application, only the current active thread will be slept.
2023-02-06 13:27:48 +0100 <gnalzo> ok, good to know, thanks dminuoso
2023-02-06 13:28:07 +0100 <dminuoso> the only slight gotcha is that the parameter is in microseconds
2023-02-06 13:28:25 +0100zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a214:1e00::7fe)
2023-02-06 13:30:08 +0100 <alex`> Thank you, dminuoso. I will have a go. :)
2023-02-06 13:32:42 +0100 <alex`> And others :)
2023-02-06 13:33:56 +0100 <Hecate> alex`: have fun!
2023-02-06 13:35:10 +0100 <alex`> Good advice, Hecate. I'll try to. :)
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2023-02-06 14:57:27 +0100 <jadey[m]> aww
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2023-02-06 16:37:02 +0100 <azure_vermilion> I had ghc installed with chocolatey then I downloaded ghcup to get ghc (again)/HLS/cabal etc. but HLS is not working, I click apply Hint in VS Code and it just sits there saying 'applying hint: blah blah' forever, can anyone help?
2023-02-06 16:37:42 +0100Midjak2(~Midjak@82.66.147.146)
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2023-02-06 16:39:06 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.160.79)
2023-02-06 16:45:16 +0100 <azure_vermilion> also HLS appears not to find System.Random
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2023-02-06 17:03:12 +0100 <mastarija> Does anyone know how to use nix to build documentation for a list of haskell modules?
2023-02-06 17:03:23 +0100L29AhL29Ah[x]
2023-02-06 17:04:19 +0100 <mastarija> Right now I can build things individuall, e.g. only for aeson using the haskellPackages.aeson.doc, but I want to have collective docs for all of the modules I use in my project.
2023-02-06 17:04:40 +0100 <mastarija> E.g. [aeson, transformers, ...].doc
2023-02-06 17:07:50 +0100 <mastarija> I'd like to get documentation that can link to another module.
2023-02-06 17:08:25 +0100 <mastarija> When I click in `aeson` docs on something from `transformers` it'll lead me to the transformers documentation page.
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2023-02-06 17:28:40 +0100hellwolf[m](~hellwolfm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:6a4)
2023-02-06 17:30:55 +0100Adran(~adran@botters/adran) (Quit: Este é o fim.)
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2023-02-06 17:33:06 +0100 <mastarija> Basically, how can I build collective documentation for multiple projects in my repository using nix?
2023-02-06 17:36:49 +0100 <azure_vermilion> aha, System.Random was only installed for the chocolatey ghc 9.2.1 but now i cabal installed it for 9.2.5
2023-02-06 17:37:23 +0100 <azure_vermilion> so now HLS typechecks programs correctly but still doesn't Apply Hints
2023-02-06 17:37:47 +0100 <jumper149> mastarija: Not quite sure if that answers your question, but do you know about `shellFor` with `withHoogle = true`?
2023-02-06 17:38:14 +0100 <mastarija> yes
2023-02-06 17:38:24 +0100 <mastarija> But I kind of want to get this as a separate build result
2023-02-06 17:38:38 +0100 <mastarija> So that I can copy this docs folder and host it on my server
2023-02-06 17:39:29 +0100hellwolf[m]Miao[m]
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2023-02-06 18:31:12 +0100 <mastarija> How can I use hackage to generate documentation for all of my haskell packages in my project?
2023-02-06 18:31:26 +0100 <mastarija> Something like small "hackage" for my local packages.
2023-02-06 18:32:10 +0100Hammdist(~Hammdist@67.169.114.135) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-02-06 18:32:29 +0100 <[exa]> mastarija: there was something like a local hoogle
2023-02-06 18:32:54 +0100 <mastarija> Yes, but I want just static files.
2023-02-06 18:33:24 +0100 <mastarija> Index that can be easily browseable.
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2023-02-06 20:06:07 +0100 <sclv> `cabal haddock`
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2023-02-06 21:27:12 +0100jadey[m](~jade1024m@2001:470:69fc:105::2:d68a) ()
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2023-02-06 22:33:29 +0100 <aisa> I remember having read a paper about an EDSL that lets you describe 2d diagrams using bounding boxes, a couple years ago. the only thing I can find online right now however is the diagrams package, which uses a more general approach using envelopes, I think. has anybody an idea what paper I'm looking for?
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2023-02-06 22:45:17 +0100 <jackdk> Closest I know of is http://ozark.hendrix.edu/~yorgey/pub/monoid-pearl.pdf but it's still using envelopes
2023-02-06 22:46:18 +0100 <aisa> yes, this is what I've also found. it's probably it, and I'm just misremembering :-)
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2023-02-06 23:16:50 +0100 <mastarija> Are there any other utilities like packunused that are up to date?
2023-02-06 23:16:54 +0100 <mastarija> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/packunused
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2023-02-06 23:27:10 +0100 <jackdk> mastarija: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using-warnings.html#ghc-flag--Wunused-pa… ?
2023-02-06 23:27:52 +0100 <mastarija> Doesn't that require a build?
2023-02-06 23:28:34 +0100 <jackdk> Sure, but that wasn't part of your original question. Still handy for development if you don't use common stanzas for deps
2023-02-06 23:28:35 +0100 <mastarija> And I think it doesn't even report the file in which the dependency is specified.
2023-02-06 23:29:04 +0100nehsou^(~nehsou@c-24-30-76-89.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2023-02-06 23:29:08 +0100 <jackdk> I don't know of anything better, sorry. I remember hearing about a tool called "weeder", no idea if it's up to date.
2023-02-06 23:29:20 +0100 <mastarija> I think that's for dead code elimination
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