IRCBrowse

2022/10/21

2022-10-21 00:03:08 +0000Athas(athas@2a01:7c8:aaac:1cf:d087:7abc:7f63:ba68) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
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2022-10-21 01:35:55 +0000freeside(~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg)
2022-10-21 01:40:05 +0000 <HackingSpring> What's the philosophy that comes into play for the GHC wiki? I was building it (GHC) locally and I use the masochistic option of a mac m1 and nix w/ home-manager. I've found a couple of hiccups when finding libraries such as ncurses. Would it be ok to add a section mentioning my fix into the ghc wiki?
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2022-10-21 08:11:57 +0000 <chreekat> HackingSpring: At the very least, you could add a new page and link to it from the "Contributed documentation" page on https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/building
2022-10-21 08:12:08 +0000titibandit(~titibandi@xdsl-78-34-208-230.nc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-21 08:12:14 +0000 <chreekat> Or work it in to somewhere higher up if you have the inclination
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2022-10-21 08:26:59 +0000sameer(~sameer@2409:4070:219d:3605::3d6:50ad)
2022-10-21 08:27:05 +0000 <sameer> Test
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2022-10-21 10:10:26 +0000 <apache2> is Shae lurking around here?
2022-10-21 10:10:29 +0000zfnmxt(~zfnmxt@2001:470:69fc:105::2b32)
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2022-10-21 10:11:57 +0000 <merijn> not atm afaict
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2022-10-21 11:03:38 +0000 <dminuoso> flatparse is officially my favourite library of the year. :)
2022-10-21 11:04:50 +0000raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2022-10-21 11:05:47 +0000 <dminuoso> It addresses so many concerns I had with megaparsec or attoparsec, is extremely performant, and is actually simple. Error handling is completely manual, which I think is much better than what megaparsec does.
2022-10-21 11:07:05 +0000 <merijn> megaparsec was a lot more usefriendly right after the parsec fork
2022-10-21 11:07:10 +0000 <merijn> I think the UX has degraded quite a bit
2022-10-21 11:09:11 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:4f5c:e38d:5cfe:423)
2022-10-21 11:12:29 +0000 <tomsmeding> > Only little-endian 64 bit systems are currently supported as the host machine
2022-10-21 11:12:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> always nice when libraries come with warnings like these :p
2022-10-21 11:13:15 +0000 <dminuoso> The portability can be widened, Im doing a lot of work on the way primtypes are handled at the moment.
2022-10-21 11:13:30 +0000 <dminuoso> Its just a bit tedious because there's so little documentation on GHC internals.
2022-10-21 11:13:34 +0000 <tomsmeding> right, I saw some conversations about the topic in this channel I think :)
2022-10-21 11:15:40 +0000 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: is Flatparse.Stateful significantly better than layering a StateM on top of Flatparse.Basic?
2022-10-21 11:16:02 +0000 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: If you all you care for is an Int worth of state, yes.
2022-10-21 11:16:11 +0000 <tomsmeding> what if I need two ints
2022-10-21 11:16:22 +0000 <dminuoso> Im doing work on that department too.
2022-10-21 11:16:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> :D
2022-10-21 11:16:32 +0000 <dminuoso> Realistically the Int is just for something like parser state
2022-10-21 11:16:46 +0000 <dminuoso> As "function-body-mode" or something along these lines
2022-10-21 11:16:59 +0000pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-10-21 11:17:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> because realistically, indentation parsing needs two ints of state I think, current column and current base column
2022-10-21 11:17:43 +0000 <dminuoso> Well, you can use the upper and lower half of the int
2022-10-21 11:17:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> lol
2022-10-21 11:17:55 +0000 <dminuoso> 11 bits should be enough for your needs, no?
2022-10-21 11:18:06 +0000 <tomsmeding> I hope I get 31 bits
2022-10-21 11:18:11 +0000 <dminuoso> Sorry, 15 bits~!
2022-10-21 11:18:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> and even then it's kinda questionable whether it's reasonable to restrict source files to 2GB size
2022-10-21 11:18:41 +0000 <tomsmeding> like, maybe
2022-10-21 11:18:51 +0000 <dminuoso> Either way, you can still do manual state.
2022-10-21 11:19:10 +0000 <dminuoso> It depends on the parser design, that is you may not need the state to be dragged around anywhere
2022-10-21 11:19:13 +0000 <tomsmeding> threading through functions, you mean? or StateM? (I guess that ends up being the same thing)
2022-10-21 11:19:23 +0000 <tomsmeding> right
2022-10-21 11:19:34 +0000 <dminuoso> Threading through functions manually where you need it
2022-10-21 11:19:38 +0000 <tomsmeding> yeah
2022-10-21 11:19:55 +0000 <tomsmeding> well I expect a haskell parser to need it almost everywhere
2022-10-21 11:20:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> because you need to update "current column" everywhere, and you need access to the current base column anywhere a newline is accepted
2022-10-21 11:20:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> which is in lots of places
2022-10-21 11:20:31 +0000 <dminuoso> Maybe, yeah. Perhaps there is a case to be made to add `Int#` worth of state to basic, and make the "Stateful" parser over an arbitrary `s` state.
2022-10-21 11:21:11 +0000 <dminuoso> I mean the reason we are constrained to Int is because we can assure this will get unboxed in the result tuple
2022-10-21 11:21:30 +0000 <dminuoso> This is only really important if you very heavily read/modify it.
2022-10-21 11:22:04 +0000 <dminuoso> If put/get/modify is not often done, the price for indirection isnt that problematic.
2022-10-21 11:23:32 +0000 <tomsmeding> if the state is for tracking indentation, it'll be quite often; once every couple of lexical tokens
2022-10-21 11:24:02 +0000 <dminuoso> Maybe we should consider having *both* then.
2022-10-21 11:24:30 +0000 <dminuoso> Then you have a high performance state, and a slow indirectional state
2022-10-21 11:24:41 +0000 <dminuoso> At the expense of an additional argument pushed to the stack on every call
2022-10-21 11:24:44 +0000 <tomsmeding> you mean what you just said, a version with an Int# and a version with an 's'?
2022-10-21 11:24:54 +0000 <dminuoso> No, just having *both*
2022-10-21 11:25:08 +0000 <tomsmeding> ah
2022-10-21 11:25:17 +0000 <tomsmeding> hmm
2022-10-21 11:25:19 +0000 <dminuoso> newtype Parser r s e a = Parser {runParser# :: ForeignPtrContents -> r -> Addr# -> Addr# -> s -> Int# -> Res# s e a}
2022-10-21 11:25:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> yeah
2022-10-21 11:25:31 +0000 <tomsmeding> many stuffs
2022-10-21 11:26:07 +0000danza(~francesco@rm-19-6-117.service.infuturo.it) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-10-21 11:28:04 +0000 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: why are there top-level definitions 'empty' and '(<|>)' instead of an Alternative instance?
2022-10-21 11:28:25 +0000 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: Because <|> in flatparse associates differently
2022-10-21 11:28:39 +0000shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.167.202)
2022-10-21 11:28:57 +0000 <dminuoso> Control.Applicative: (<|>) :: f a -> f a -> f a infixl 3
2022-10-21 11:29:04 +0000 <dminuoso> FlatParse: (<|>) :: Parser e a -> Parser e a -> Parser e a infixr 6
2022-10-21 11:29:17 +0000 <tomsmeding> spicy
2022-10-21 11:29:27 +0000 <tomsmeding> I guess the infixr makes sense
2022-10-21 11:30:02 +0000 <dminuoso> There is a ticket about it, we just need a REWRITE rule to re-associate back - then we could make it an Alternative
2022-10-21 11:30:31 +0000 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: why does the word "branch" in the haddocks of 'branch' have a LATIN SMALL LETTER B WITH DOT ABOVE
2022-10-21 11:32:29 +0000 <dminuoso> Dunno, but it reminded me of Chris' comment https://web.archive.org/web/20170511175754/https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2cbgpz/flee_t…
2022-10-21 11:32:57 +0000 <dminuoso> (In response to accursedUnutterablePerformIO)
2022-10-21 11:33:33 +0000 <tomsmeding> I seem to be good at spotting these things https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29904277
2022-10-21 11:34:34 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95724d3002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-21 11:34:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> haha nice
2022-10-21 11:35:04 +0000 <tomsmeding> microlens exists
2022-10-21 11:35:15 +0000 <dminuoso> Yeah, I just use `optics` :p
2022-10-21 11:35:25 +0000 <dminuoso> Which in comparison has a small footprint
2022-10-21 11:35:36 +0000 <dminuoso> (Cant live without prisms, so I dont mind profunctors)
2022-10-21 11:35:56 +0000 <dminuoso> Or I guess the actual pricy thing is indexed-traversable
2022-10-21 11:38:54 +0000danza(~francesco@151.57.231.155)
2022-10-21 11:40:16 +0000kritzefitz(~kritzefit@debian/kritzefitz) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-21 11:40:41 +0000 <dminuoso> What was really surprising to me, is how poor alex/happy actually perform.
2022-10-21 11:41:12 +0000kritzefitz(~kritzefit@debian/kritzefitz)
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2022-10-21 11:59:05 +0000 <tomsmeding> why are these not overlapping instances https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/ESrlXOVE
2022-10-21 12:00:12 +0000 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: because one is more specific.
2022-10-21 12:00:29 +0000 <dminuoso> See GHC manual
2022-10-21 12:00:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> ooooh it's instantiation-defined
2022-10-21 12:00:44 +0000 <tomsmeding> if I require C Void Void it does raise the error
2022-10-21 12:01:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> but that case I can't seem to fix with OVERLAPPING/OVERLAPPABLE pragmas
2022-10-21 12:02:02 +0000ccapndave(~ccapndave@mob-194-230-158-173.cgn.sunrise.net)
2022-10-21 12:02:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> i.e. this gives the same error https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/C1iP81o7
2022-10-21 12:02:15 +0000 <dminuoso> What is instantiation-defined?
2022-10-21 12:02:54 +0000 <tomsmeding> I just thought-up that word :p
2022-10-21 12:03:04 +0000sameer(~sameer@2409:4070:219d:3605::3d6:50ad)
2022-10-21 12:03:22 +0000 <tomsmeding> what I meant is that not all overlap checks are done when checking the instances, some overlap is only detected when said overlap is encountered during resolution
2022-10-21 12:03:38 +0000nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-10-21 12:03:48 +0000 <dminuoso> Yes, think of definition-time checking as just early heuristics for your sanity.
2022-10-21 12:04:20 +0000 <tomsmeding> sure
2022-10-21 12:04:25 +0000 <dminuoso> Since it can cause earlier diagnostics, which in multi-module setups might move diagnostics closer to the source4
2022-10-21 12:04:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> yes clearly the earlier the better
2022-10-21 12:05:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> but I thought I could make the resolution engine choose whatever option I want in case of overlap using OVERLAPP{ING,ABLE} pragmas, but this case doesn't seem to be affected by them
2022-10-21 12:05:58 +0000 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: remove one OVERLAPPABLE or OVERLAPPING.
2022-10-21 12:06:02 +0000 <dminuoso> Cant have both
2022-10-21 12:06:05 +0000 <dminuoso> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/instances.html#instance-overlap
2022-10-21 12:06:18 +0000 <dminuoso> `Either IX is overlappable, or IY is overlapping. (This “either/or” design, rather than a “both/and” design, allow a client to deliberately override an instance from a library, without requiring a change to the library.)`
2022-10-21 12:06:48 +0000 <tomsmeding> yeah, but it does also work if both pragmas are present
2022-10-21 12:06:51 +0000 <dminuoso> Ah it does?
2022-10-21 12:06:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> and in any case, removing either doesn't help :p
2022-10-21 12:06:54 +0000 <tomsmeding> yeah
2022-10-21 12:07:11 +0000 <dminuoso> Ah okay. Then the wording in the GHC manual is slightly incorrect.
2022-10-21 12:07:18 +0000 <dminuoso> The `Either` should be stricken
2022-10-21 12:07:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> yes
2022-10-21 12:07:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> I guess so
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2022-10-21 12:36:02 +0000 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: By the way, it occured to me that if you use a CPS StateT, then its exactly the same as newtype Parser r s e a = Parser {runParser# :: ForeignPtrContents -> r -> Addr# -> Addr# -> s -> Int# -> Res# s e a}
2022-10-21 12:36:16 +0000 <dminuoso> Well almost exactly the same, anyhow
2022-10-21 12:37:32 +0000 <tomsmeding> similar runtime representation, you mean?
2022-10-21 12:37:54 +0000 <dminuoso> Yes
2022-10-21 12:38:18 +0000 <tomsmeding> so the fully stateful version could be made from the existing versions without duplicating all the code :)
2022-10-21 12:38:37 +0000 <dminuoso> Which is actually nice for my case,
2022-10-21 12:38:40 +0000 <dminuoso> because I already have this lying around
2022-10-21 12:38:43 +0000 <dminuoso> newtype ExStateT s e m a = ExStateT { runExStateT :: forall r. s -> (e -> m r) -> (s -> a -> m r) -> m r }
2022-10-21 12:39:04 +0000 <dminuoso> Giving me even a way to abort the parser entirely on internal errors, which is nice!
2022-10-21 12:39:08 +0000 <tomsmeding> cps'ed exceptt + statett?
2022-10-21 12:39:11 +0000 <dminuoso> Yeah
2022-10-21 12:39:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> s/statett/statet/
2022-10-21 12:39:30 +0000 <tomsmeding> how is that better than using the existing error support in flatparse
2022-10-21 12:39:38 +0000 <tomsmeding> oh skipping all the cuts
2022-10-21 12:39:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> that makes sense
2022-10-21 12:39:46 +0000 <dminuoso> cuts *can* be recovered.
2022-10-21 12:39:50 +0000 <dminuoso> by means of `try`
2022-10-21 12:40:22 +0000 <tomsmeding> oh I had my names confused, right I meant try and cutting
2022-10-21 12:40:54 +0000 <dminuoso> Perhaps things are good the way they are, really.
2022-10-21 12:41:19 +0000 <tomsmeding> perhaps there just needs to be a line in the docs that if you layer a monad transformer over this that is a newtyle and in cps style, then it works fine?
2022-10-21 12:41:20 +0000 <dminuoso> But actually no hold on!
2022-10-21 12:41:22 +0000 <dminuoso> There's a major difference.
2022-10-21 12:41:50 +0000 <dminuoso> The thing though is, running StateT ontop of Parser parsec will behave differently with respect to backtracking
2022-10-21 12:41:56 +0000 <dminuoso> Which might be highly undesirable
2022-10-21 12:42:07 +0000 <dminuoso> Since state would be preserved after backtracking
2022-10-21 12:42:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> ah
2022-10-21 12:42:13 +0000thyriaen(~thyriaen@2a01:aea0:dd4:470d:6245:cbff:fe9f:48b1)
2022-10-21 12:42:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> that's major
2022-10-21 12:42:29 +0000 <tomsmeding> yeah ~nobody will want that
2022-10-21 12:43:26 +0000 <dminuoso> But honestly its not a big deal for me. Ill just parse into an intermediate ADT, and then interpret that ADT in ExStateT.
2022-10-21 12:43:49 +0000 <dminuoso> Only slight annoyance is that I have to keep Spans around in order to produce localized error messages
2022-10-21 12:43:56 +0000 <dminuoso> *localizable
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2022-10-21 13:54:53 +0000 <Guest|82> I just installed Haskelll with ghcup. What code editor or development environment should I use?
2022-10-21 13:55:14 +0000 <geekosaur> whichever one you like
2022-10-21 13:55:23 +0000 <geekosaur> I flip between emacs and vscode
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2022-10-21 13:55:45 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-10-21 13:56:16 +0000 <dminuoso> The one you prefer most, definitely.
2022-10-21 13:56:37 +0000 <dminuoso> Haskell syntax highlighting modules exist for almost all editors out there
2022-10-21 13:57:24 +0000stiell_(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2022-10-21 13:57:28 +0000 <dminuoso> If you want a more integrated environment, anything that supports LSP (language server protocol) will suffice, since we have haskell-language-server.
2022-10-21 13:57:48 +0000 <dminuoso> Which all popular editors have some level of integration for
2022-10-21 13:59:22 +0000wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-10-21 14:01:46 +0000 <dminuoso> https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/ESrlXOVE
2022-10-21 14:01:49 +0000 <dminuoso> Two questions.
2022-10-21 14:01:53 +0000 <dminuoso> 1) Why do I get the warning twice?
2022-10-21 14:01:55 +0000sameer(~sameer@2409:4070:219d:3605::3d6:50ad) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-10-21 14:01:56 +0000 <dminuoso> 2) Why do I get the warning at all?
2022-10-21 14:02:02 +0000Guest|82(~Guest|82@71.190.74.135) (Quit: Connection closed)
2022-10-21 14:02:15 +0000 <dminuoso> Oh hold on!
2022-10-21 14:02:21 +0000 <dminuoso> Forgot to click save
2022-10-21 14:02:38 +0000 <dminuoso> https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/saved/6UE6XpXe
2022-10-21 14:02:40 +0000 <dminuoso> Here
2022-10-21 14:03:37 +0000 <albet70> this 'let' in haskell could be implemented by function?
2022-10-21 14:03:47 +0000 <dminuoso> albet70: Yes.
2022-10-21 14:04:02 +0000 <dminuoso> `let x = 1 in ...` is, semantically, the same as `(\x -> ...) 1`
2022-10-21 14:04:38 +0000 <dminuoso> Mutual recursion will be a bit more complicated to build with lambda, but is possible too.
2022-10-21 14:05:04 +0000 <albet70> dminuoso , I mean implement 'let' not the equipment
2022-10-21 14:05:18 +0000 <dminuoso> well yeah, like I just pointed out.
2022-10-21 14:05:22 +0000 <lortabac> 'let' is commonly desugared to a lambda in Scheme, but not in Haskell
2022-10-21 14:05:52 +0000 <dminuoso> albet70: you could do this *exactly* as a desugar routine.
2022-10-21 14:06:11 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
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2022-10-21 14:06:35 +0000 <merijn> Not really, something with like monomorphism whatsit fancy word thing for let bindings
2022-10-21 14:06:38 +0000 <albet70> so let = ?
2022-10-21 14:06:46 +0000 <merijn> let polymorphism or whatever it was called
2022-10-21 14:06:51 +0000 <albet70> let x in y = v
2022-10-21 14:07:00 +0000 <albet70> let x in y = ?
2022-10-21 14:07:04 +0000 <lortabac> let polymorphism is not a problem if you typecheck before desugaring
2022-10-21 14:07:15 +0000 <lortabac> which is what GHC does IIRC
2022-10-21 14:07:24 +0000 <albet70> let definition is?
2022-10-21 14:07:33 +0000adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-10-21 14:07:34 +0000 <dminuoso> Things like recursion or mutual recursion require just a bit additional machineryu
2022-10-21 14:07:45 +0000 <probie> `let x = y in v` is `(\x -> v) y`
2022-10-21 14:07:55 +0000 <albet70> code, please
2022-10-21 14:08:07 +0000 <albet70> not equivalent
2022-10-21 14:08:55 +0000 <albet70> callCC is a macro in scheme, but a function in haskell
2022-10-21 14:09:04 +0000stiell_(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2022-10-21 14:09:11 +0000LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2022-10-21 14:09:59 +0000 <probie> In Haskell `let` doesn't desguar to anything, it's fundamental. It adds no power to the language beyond what already exists, but is still primitive
2022-10-21 14:10:29 +0000 <dolio> In GHC, applications to complicated expressions desugar to lets.
2022-10-21 14:10:39 +0000 <albet70> probie , so let isn't defined by function?
2022-10-21 14:12:17 +0000 <probie> No. It's not defined by a function.
2022-10-21 14:13:57 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-10-21 14:14:15 +0000 <apache2> thanks merijn
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2022-10-21 14:36:04 +0000 <HackingSpring> Thanks, chreekat. I'll do that
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2022-10-21 14:38:23 +0000 <geekosaur> albet70, if you track compilation down to STG level, you'll find that `let` is a primitive STG operation
2022-10-21 14:38:38 +0000 <geekosaur> (-ddump-stg)
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2022-10-21 15:11:04 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2022-10-21 15:12:52 +0000 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: do NOINLINE pragmas even do anything sensible on type class methods
2022-10-21 15:13:05 +0000 <tomsmeding> because surely whether it inlines should be a property of the _class_ member, not the _instance_ member
2022-10-21 15:13:15 +0000 <tomsmeding> but moving the pragma there yields an error
2022-10-21 15:14:27 +0000 <dolio> It's not a property of the class member.
2022-10-21 15:14:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> oh no forget what I just said that makes no sense
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2022-10-21 15:37:04 +0000 <EvanR> "let x = y in v` is `(\x -> v) y" is false, not just because of STG, but because y may contain x i.e. be a recursive definition?
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2022-10-21 15:43:46 +0000[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-10-21 15:47:39 +0000 <[Leary]> > (\x k -> k x) (\x k -> k x) $ \let_ -> let_ (\rb k -> k (fix rb)) $ \letrec -> letrec (\zs -> 0:zs) $ \zs -> take 10 zs
2022-10-21 15:47:40 +0000 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
2022-10-21 15:48:02 +0000 <[Leary]> What is broken, need merely be `fix`ed. :)
2022-10-21 15:48:12 +0000 <lortabac> EvanR: I guess an imaginary Haskell where 'let' is syntactic sugar would need some recursion primitive such as 'fix'
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2022-10-21 16:02:58 +0000 <monochrom> Yes, that's what the Haskell Report does. :)
2022-10-21 16:04:37 +0000 <monochrom> Although, it is a bit ambivalent because "let" and {"case", "\"} are treated differently at type checking. ("let" enjoys let-polymorphism.)
2022-10-21 16:05:17 +0000nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-10-21 16:05:54 +0000 <monochrom> It is when you're done with type checking and it's safe to ignore types, and you start evaluation, that Haskell Report treats let as case, lambda, application.
2022-10-21 16:06:18 +0000 <monochrom> with the help of fix.
2022-10-21 16:06:21 +0000grymzu(~zymurgy@user/zymurgy) (Leaving)
2022-10-21 16:06:47 +0000 <monochrom> Although, should be s/evaluation/denotation/
2022-10-21 16:06:58 +0000Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: Exeunt juan@acm.org)
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2022-10-21 16:07:20 +0000 <EvanR> dunno why but it seems like "let is just recursive" is simpler xD
2022-10-21 16:08:01 +0000 <monochrom> Sure! More people relate to evaluation better than to denotation.
2022-10-21 16:08:52 +0000 <monochrom> And since GHC is about running programs not giving programs mathematical meanings...
2022-10-21 16:09:02 +0000kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51epevt167943u7m.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2022-10-21 16:09:46 +0000 <EvanR> isn't a let binding kind of something that happens before you even get to any math or logic
2022-10-21 16:10:37 +0000nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-10-21 16:10:40 +0000 <EvanR> rather, the idea of defining terms to be used
2022-10-21 16:11:34 +0000 <dolio> Traditional mathematical practice is actually to pretend that let doesn't exist.
2022-10-21 16:11:42 +0000 <dolio> Every definition just gets substituted in.
2022-10-21 16:12:43 +0000 <dolio> It's very divorced from the realities of working with/implementing a logic.
2022-10-21 16:15:07 +0000lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:2ca4:6437:ce52:4a2b) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2022-10-21 16:15:33 +0000sauvinSauvin
2022-10-21 16:17:18 +0000 <monochrom> Creating thunks is a fundamental primitive in lazy evaluation, and this corresponds perfectly with "let".
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2022-10-21 16:20:14 +0000 <monochrom> For mathematicians, "let" lives at the meta level, not in the object or structure being studied.
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2022-10-21 17:15:34 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2022-10-21 17:17:53 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2022-10-21 17:26:24 +0000 <Guest|82> Using VS Code, how do I save a Haskell file as .hs, and not .txt ?
2022-10-21 17:28:05 +0000Guest6(~Guest6@2a01cb0408ee99001bcd18dfc58a6927.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2022-10-21 17:29:30 +0000titibandit(~titibandi@xdsl-78-34-208-230.nc.de)
2022-10-21 17:29:36 +0000 <Guest|82> The file is now saved as filename.hs.txt    How can I change the name to filename.hs?
2022-10-21 17:30:11 +0000danza(~francesco@151.82.229.143)
2022-10-21 17:32:09 +0000 <darkling> Right click on the file and select "rename"? (I'm guessing rfom watching other people use it)
2022-10-21 17:32:26 +0000 <Guest6> Hello o/ If somebody has the time and the knowledges to help me, i encounter an issue :
2022-10-21 17:32:26 +0000 <Guest6> I have a test suite that run in hspec-wai : https://github.com/hspec/hspec-wai#readme
2022-10-21 17:32:27 +0000 <Guest6> In one of my test, i would like to make a regular assertation (hspec Expectation: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hspec-expectations-0.8.2/docs/Test-Hspec-Expectations.html#v:s…), but it dont compile as a WaiExpectation is expected. How can i turn an Expectation into a WaiExpectation ?
2022-10-21 17:33:14 +0000 <Guest|82> ACtually you have to open the View tab and click the filename extensions option. Then Windows lets you do it. Thank you for the reply
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2022-10-21 17:57:50 +0000 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: What is interesting, that at first I had the same intuition, that (NO)INLINE'ing should be specified on the class member declaration, not instance member definitions.
2022-10-21 17:58:06 +0000 <dminuoso> Do you have any idea as to why that seems more intuitive at first?
2022-10-21 18:02:16 +0000axeman(~quassel@2a02:8109:a380:78:f510:9:411b:2d08) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2022-10-21 18:02:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: I thought it because I felt that a use of a typeclass method refers to the _class_ method in principle, and that the definition in an instance is only a later instantiation
2022-10-21 18:03:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> similar to how a HasCallStack constraint has to be put on the class member, not the instance member
2022-10-21 18:03:44 +0000 <dminuoso> To be fair, HasCallStack is about one of the most magical things we have in GHC.
2022-10-21 18:03:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> of course this is all nonsense because it's a _definition_ that gets inlined, not a declaration in some class, but we were talking about faulty intuitions :p
2022-10-21 18:03:48 +0000 <geekosaur> makes sense to me, the class one is just a pointer, the instance one is the real one
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2022-10-21 18:04:11 +0000 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: yeah it makes sense to me now too, but both dminuoso and I apparently briefly thought the opposite
2022-10-21 18:04:31 +0000 <geekosaur> but I guess I just automatically think of classes as record declarations and instances as values thereof
2022-10-21 18:04:32 +0000 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: right, but the same reasoning applies to any type class
2022-10-21 18:04:59 +0000 <tomsmeding> ah, I think this is what my intuition came from
2022-10-21 18:05:23 +0000 <tomsmeding> I was thinking about a quantified constraint like `foo :: (forall a. C a) => ...` where `C` has a {-# INLINE #-} method marked so in an instance
2022-10-21 18:05:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> that can never work
2022-10-21 18:05:38 +0000 <tomsmeding> so, I thought, "clearly" it should go in the class
2022-10-21 18:06:18 +0000 <tomsmeding> which is faulty reasoning because it's the same ideas as passing an {-# INLINE #-} marked function to an explicitly polymorphic (higher-rank) argument to a function
2022-10-21 18:07:10 +0000 <tomsmeding> both will actually work quite fine, as long as it's clear which instance it's going to be resolved to at compile-time -- which is a prerequisite for inlining _anyway_
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2022-10-21 18:19:05 +0000 <df> a
2022-10-21 18:19:10 +0000 <tomsmeding> b
2022-10-21 18:19:57 +0000 <Rembane> c
2022-10-21 18:20:00 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-10-21 18:20:15 +0000 <c_wraith> there are too many letters for that.
2022-10-21 18:20:37 +0000 <Rembane> Do you have a petition to truncate the alphabet?
2022-10-21 18:22:08 +0000 <c_wraith> No, I'm petitioning for orthography to accept that ' is a letter
2022-10-21 18:22:13 +0000 <c_wraith> Haskell's already there!
2022-10-21 18:22:30 +0000 <tomsmeding> the Kazakh alphabet is also already there
2022-10-21 18:22:59 +0000 <tomsmeding> and Breton
2022-10-21 18:23:16 +0000 <tomsmeding> they have a letter c'h , how cool is that
2022-10-21 18:23:35 +0000 <c_wraith> I like that.
2022-10-21 18:24:01 +0000 <boxscape_> Alphabets that claim that a sequence of letters is a single letter make me uncomfortable
2022-10-21 18:24:56 +0000 <dminuoso> boxscape_: Its just a narrowsighted imagination of what "letter" means
2022-10-21 18:25:03 +0000 <dminuoso> Or using that term at all
2022-10-21 18:25:30 +0000 <boxscape_> what would you call c'h instead of a "letter"?
2022-10-21 18:25:35 +0000 <dminuoso> A grapheme cluster
2022-10-21 18:25:40 +0000 <boxscape_> I can live with that
2022-10-21 18:25:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language#Alphabet
2022-10-21 18:27:24 +0000 <dminuoso> So Im not a linguistic, but I think that's incorrectly phrased.
2022-10-21 18:28:03 +0000LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2022-10-21 18:28:54 +0000LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Client Quit)
2022-10-21 18:29:05 +0000 <dminuoso> boxscape_: or it might even be a digraph
2022-10-21 18:29:58 +0000 <dminuoso> Or maybe trigraph, depending on the interpretation of '
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2022-10-21 18:30:32 +0000LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2022-10-21 18:30:43 +0000 <boxscape_> seems right, wikipedia says "in some languages' orthographies, digraphs (and occasionally trigraphs) are considered individual letters" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digraph_(orthography) )
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2022-10-21 18:44:00 +0000 <sclv> a little self advertisement for a post on my haskell symposium work http://comonad.com/reader/2022/internalized-guarded-recursion-for-equational-reasoning/
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2022-10-21 19:52:54 +0000 <dminuoso> Im re-reading SPJs STG paper, and in 3.2.3 he makes a remark: In the push-enter model, all that happens is that three more arguments are pushed on the evaluation stack b efore jumping to f. To put it another way, there are no identiable moments at which a new activation frame should be allocated or reclaimed.
2022-10-21 19:53:12 +0000 <dminuoso> Can someone elaborate what he means by activation frame in push-enter?
2022-10-21 19:54:47 +0000 <HackingSpring> is anyone currently able to compile ghc HEAD with ghc 9.0 for phase 0? the configure script currently recommends 9.X, but I only got to do it after bumping it up to 9.2
2022-10-21 19:55:52 +0000 <geekosaur> the usual rule is two past versions; since HEAD is 9.5 / 9.6-to-be, that implies 9.2 and 9.4 can be used
2022-10-21 19:56:23 +0000 <geekosaur> otherwise, ask in #ghc
2022-10-21 19:57:00 +0000 <HackingSpring> I see. nice, thanks!
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2022-10-21 20:23:53 +0000 <sclv> dminuoso: i think "activation frame" is just another name for "stack frame"
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2022-10-21 21:49:20 +0000 <dolio> More specifically, it is a stack frame that corresponds to the lifetime of a function call.
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