IRCBrowse

2022/10/12

2022-10-12 00:00:44 +0000loras(~loras@c-73-139-125-125.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
2022-10-12 00:01:57 +0000 <monochrom> You come across as starting from first principles and using Laplace analysis to reconstruct the wave function of the whole universe and finally you're done and it contains an apple pie. :)
2022-10-12 00:03:36 +0000 <hpc> just as carl sagan predicted
2022-10-12 00:03:44 +0000 <monochrom> APFFP >:)
2022-10-12 00:04:19 +0000 <monochrom> Chapter 1 teaches you Calculus. Literally. >:)
2022-10-12 00:05:02 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-10-12 00:05:04 +0000 <monochrom> #apple-pie-beginners
2022-10-12 00:05:16 +0000DDR(~DDR@2604:3d08:4c7f:8250:8f0b:51dd:a01f:4b3f)
2022-10-12 00:09:39 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Client Quit)
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2022-10-12 00:48:40 +0000 <talismanick> /JOIN #apple-pie-beginners
2022-10-12 00:52:24 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-10-12 00:57:22 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2022-10-12 00:58:30 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> Attempt 2 is better, but still terrible: I got partial results processing a million lines. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/j0jwBkg4
2022-10-12 00:59:07 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> I couldn't figure out the ByteString parsing; is the parsing monad not included?
2022-10-12 00:59:30 +0000 <Axman6> chunksOf looks very inefficient to me
2022-10-12 00:59:54 +0000 <Axman6> can't you just slice the input vector?
2022-10-12 01:00:12 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> Valid point
2022-10-12 01:00:18 +0000 <Axman6> like, I'm pretty sure that's O(n^20
2022-10-12 01:00:26 +0000 <Axman6> O(n^2)*
2022-10-12 01:00:47 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> Lmao I wouldn't put it past me to write something like the first
2022-10-12 01:01:20 +0000beteigeuze1(~Thunderbi@2001:8a0:61b5:6101:f0c:e4e3:bfdc:91df)
2022-10-12 01:01:22 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> I had forgotten about list comps, which would have been the only advantage of doing this with List; this is despite knowing y'all invented them
2022-10-12 01:01:33 +0000 <Axman6> using generate and slice it should be significantly more efficient
2022-10-12 01:02:23 +0000beteigeuze(~Thunderbi@bl14-81-220.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 01:02:23 +0000beteigeuze1beteigeuze
2022-10-12 01:03:11 +0000jargon(~jargon@184.101.208.112)
2022-10-12 01:03:13 +0000 <Axman6> also, as a style thing, we generally wouldn't hide Prelude functions like map, but instead import Vector qualified as V and use V.map
2022-10-12 01:04:37 +0000 <geekosaur> this is also more extensible, because for example Map also reuses some names, so you would have problems if you later started to use them in your code. importing qualified works better
2022-10-12 01:05:31 +0000 <Axman6> also, map f (generate n id) is just generate n f
2022-10-12 01:05:54 +0000 <Axman6> and will make the code look a lot nicer: generate n $ \k -> ...
2022-10-12 01:06:01 +0000 <Axman6> no need to extra brackets
2022-10-12 01:08:02 +0000jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-10-12 01:11:21 +0000andreabedini(~andreabed@8s8kj681vht2qj3xkwc5.ip6.superloop.com)
2022-10-12 01:12:02 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> I can translate j so that the other list is generate n id...I don't suppose there's a corresponding form for foldl' though?
2022-10-12 01:12:28 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> Or is there a way to make sum + map strict?
2022-10-12 01:13:28 +0000 <Axman6> I don't understand the question
2022-10-12 01:15:41 +0000 <Axman6> FlaminWalrus: sublength = (floor (fromIntegral n / fromIntegral samples)) is just sublength = n `div` samples, no?
2022-10-12 01:15:43 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> Sorry. That was somewhere between thinking out loud and asking; in both functions I foldl' over what is, in essence, (generate n id), so I was wondering how one would apply the refactoring to that
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2022-10-12 01:19:52 +0000 <monochrom> sum . map f = foldl' (\a x -> a + f x)
2022-10-12 01:19:53 +0000nurupo_nurupo
2022-10-12 01:20:11 +0000 <monochrom> err, sum . map f = foldl' (\a x -> a + f x) 0
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2022-10-12 01:25:18 +0000 <FlaminWalrus> including strictness concerns?
2022-10-12 01:26:19 +0000 <monochrom> I have already used foldl'
2022-10-12 01:28:31 +0000 <EvanR> foldl' is strict foldl
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2022-10-12 04:20:18 +0000 <Clinton[m]> Is there a class which is `MonadError` but without `catchError` and without the functional dependency?
2022-10-12 04:20:48 +0000sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10)
2022-10-12 04:20:48 +0000mbuf(~Shakthi@49.205.87.152) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-10-12 04:20:54 +0000 <Clinton[m]> (I could write one myself but I'd rather avoid reinventing the wheel)
2022-10-12 04:21:18 +0000mbuf(~Shakthi@49.205.87.152)
2022-10-12 04:22:12 +0000 <Clinton[m]> I've noticed purescript has this:
2022-10-12 04:22:12 +0000 <Clinton[m]> https://github.com/purescript/purescript-transformers/pull/91/files/9eb6543f36cec807e202d9e35b02f0…
2022-10-12 04:23:34 +0000 <Clinton[m]> But all the versions of `MonadThrow` I can fine on Haskell do not have `e` as part of the type parameters. They force `e = Exception`.
2022-10-12 04:26:45 +0000zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2022-10-12 04:30:38 +0000jonathanx(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2022-10-12 04:32:18 +0000 <Clinton[m]> I basically want this:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2c17d5f452458de4774b9434a3103d80ecf4…>)
2022-10-12 04:33:54 +0000 <Clinton[m]> * Basically, instead of the current MonadThrow... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/e2b389b66b936e66a0ec6dcf49cd882a88a2…>)
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2022-10-12 04:57:41 +0000 <EvanR> did pure script reverse the arrow on class definition syntax... jeez
2022-10-12 04:58:38 +0000 <EvanR> I guess it's a good way to know you're in purescript
2022-10-12 04:59:04 +0000 <davean> Clinton[m]: I think you're thinking something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mtl-2.2.2/docs/Control-Monad-Except.html ? Because thats very different than MonadThrow stuff.
2022-10-12 04:59:25 +0000 <davean> Haskell has a whole second exception thing thats less ... that
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2022-10-12 05:26:43 +0000 <ski> @type let chunksOf :: Int -> Data.Vector.Vector a -> Data.Vector.Vector (Data.Vector.Vector a); chunksOf m v0 | r == 0 = Data.Vector.generate q (\i -> Data.Vector.slice (q*i) m v0) | otherwise = Data.Vector.snoc (Data.Vector.generate q (\i -> Data.Vector.slice (q*i) m v0)) (Data.Vector.slice (q*m) r v0) where n = Data.Vector.length v0; (q,r) = n `divMod` m in chunksOf
2022-10-12 05:26:44 +0000 <lambdabot> Int -> Data.Vector.Vector a -> Data.Vector.Vector (Data.Vector.Vector a)
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2022-10-12 05:32:21 +0000 <ski> EvanR : well, evidently they took the view that the class implies its superclasses (rather than the superclasses being presuppositions of the class)
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2022-10-12 05:34:04 +0000 <ski> (btw, fwiw, imho it would have been better if the instance head syntactically preceded the instance body (the constraints) .. like Prolog rules. perhaps also for classes and superclasses (?))
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2022-10-12 06:06:15 +0000 <talismanick> Tangential to FlaminWalrus 's earlier line of questioning, if I wanted to numerically compute with APL-style rank polymorphism (but in Haskell), would it be better to study HMatrix or Repa first?
2022-10-12 06:07:03 +0000 <talismanick> (Tangential because treating data in terms of aggregates with "shape" can lend itself to algebraic clarity without sacrificing performance)
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2022-10-12 06:15:50 +0000 <Axman6> without understanding most of the question that does sound like more Repa than HMatrix to me
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2022-10-12 06:22:53 +0000 <kaol> Has nub ever required for the list to be sorted? A coworker used it without sort first and I was about to remark about that but when I checked the docs it had no such requirement.
2022-10-12 06:24:16 +0000 <Axman6> nope, it's never needed it, it has a very simple (and slow) implementation
2022-10-12 06:24:37 +0000 <Axman6> @src nub
2022-10-12 06:24:37 +0000 <lambdabot> nub = nubBy (==)
2022-10-12 06:24:37 +0000 <lambdabot> --OR
2022-10-12 06:24:38 +0000 <lambdabot> nub l = go l []
2022-10-12 06:24:38 +0000 <lambdabot> where go [] _ = []
2022-10-12 06:24:38 +0000 <lambdabot> go (x:xs) ls
2022-10-12 06:24:40 +0000 <lambdabot> | x `elem` ls = go xs ls
2022-10-12 06:24:41 +0000 <lambdabot> | otherwise = x : go xs (x:ls)
2022-10-12 06:25:33 +0000 <Axman6> hmm, the implementation I was thinking about was: nub [] = []; nub (x:xs) = x : nub (filter (/=x) xs)
2022-10-12 06:26:42 +0000 <kaol> O(n^2). I suppose I assumed that at some point since it'd be O(n) for the sorted case.
2022-10-12 06:27:31 +0000mncheck(~mncheck@193.224.205.254)
2022-10-12 06:29:56 +0000coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba)
2022-10-12 06:34:05 +0000 <jackdk> @src group
2022-10-12 06:34:05 +0000 <lambdabot> group = groupBy (==)
2022-10-12 06:34:11 +0000 <jackdk> @src groupBy
2022-10-12 06:34:11 +0000 <lambdabot> groupBy _ [] = []
2022-10-12 06:34:11 +0000 <lambdabot> groupBy eq (x:xs) = (x:ys) : groupBy eq zs
2022-10-12 06:34:12 +0000 <lambdabot> where (ys, zs) = span (eq x) xs
2022-10-12 06:34:44 +0000 <ski> @src nubBy
2022-10-12 06:34:44 +0000 <lambdabot> nubBy eq [] = []
2022-10-12 06:34:45 +0000 <lambdabot> nubBy eq (x:xs) = x : nubBy eq (filter (\ y -> not (eq x y)) xs)
2022-10-12 06:34:50 +0000 <jackdk> kaol, group needs sorting first if you want to group all occurrences of something within a list. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
2022-10-12 06:35:19 +0000 <ski> @hoogle nubSort
2022-10-12 06:35:20 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List.Extra nubSort :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:35:20 +0000 <lambdabot> Extra nubSort :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:35:20 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List.Ordered nubSort :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:35:22 +0000 <ski> @hoogle nubOrd
2022-10-12 06:35:22 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.Containers.ListUtils nubOrd :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:35:22 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List.Extra nubOrd :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:35:23 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List.NonEmpty.Extra nubOrd :: Ord a => NonEmpty a -> NonEmpty a
2022-10-12 06:35:37 +0000 <jackdk> @hoogle ordNub
2022-10-12 06:35:38 +0000 <lambdabot> Distribution.Simple.Utils ordNub :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:35:38 +0000 <lambdabot> Distribution.Utils.Generic ordNub :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:35:38 +0000 <lambdabot> Protolude ordNub :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:36:09 +0000 <jackdk> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/discrimination-0.4.1/docs/Data-Discrimination.html#v:nub
2022-10-12 06:37:03 +0000 <ski> > group "mississippi"
2022-10-12 06:37:04 +0000 <lambdabot> ["m","i","ss","i","ss","i","pp","i"]
2022-10-12 06:38:52 +0000 <ski> @hoogle sortNub
2022-10-12 06:38:52 +0000 <lambdabot> Relude.Nub sortNub :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:38:53 +0000 <lambdabot> Universum.Nub sortNub :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:38:53 +0000 <lambdabot> Language.Fixpoint.Misc sortNub :: Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2022-10-12 06:38:54 +0000 <ski> heh
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2022-10-12 06:42:46 +0000TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (*.net *.split)
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2022-10-12 06:47:40 +0000 <Axman6> kaol: also worth keeping in mind that nub only required Eq, not Ord, so the idea of sorting doesn't make much sense
2022-10-12 06:47:53 +0000int-e(~noone@int-e.eu)
2022-10-12 06:47:53 +0000Logio(em@kapsi.fi)
2022-10-12 06:47:56 +0000cods(~fred@82-65-232-44.subs.proxad.net)
2022-10-12 06:48:00 +0000 <Axman6> you could require that equal elements were grouped though
2022-10-12 06:48:01 +0000Zemyla(~ec2-user@ec2-54-80-174-150.compute-1.amazonaws.com)
2022-10-12 06:48:10 +0000ystael(~ystael@user/ystael)
2022-10-12 06:48:44 +0000 <dminuoso> Well, the reason why good implementations will demand Ord, is because they can use a Set internally.
2022-10-12 06:49:01 +0000 <dminuoso> "good" with respect to an unknown, unordered input of course.
2022-10-12 06:49:27 +0000 <Axman6> should be using the discrimination package anyway - give me that O(n) nub please
2022-10-12 06:50:52 +0000 <dminuoso> I would be interested in benchmarks about discrimination. How costly is its constant factor? What about locality of reference? How much extra memory indirections do you pay for.
2022-10-12 06:51:02 +0000Inoperable(~PLAYER_1@fancydata.science)
2022-10-12 06:52:02 +0000 <dminuoso> Worst time complexity is usually not the biggest concern you have. Often, with real world data, an algorithm with poorer complexity can perform better due to good cache performance for instance.
2022-10-12 06:52:11 +0000thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.180.7.159) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 06:55:02 +0000 <ski> hm, what if one only wants to merge adjacent duplicates ? anyone named the obvious wrapper around `group' ?
2022-10-12 06:55:37 +0000 <dminuoso> ski: how would "aaa" and "aaaa" be grouped?
2022-10-12 06:55:39 +0000 <Axman6> map head . group?
2022-10-12 06:55:45 +0000 <ski> yes
2022-10-12 06:56:42 +0000 <ski> @type map (head &&& length) . group -- and this related one, i suppose
2022-10-12 06:56:43 +0000 <lambdabot> Eq a => [a] -> [(a, Int)]
2022-10-12 06:57:10 +0000 <dminuoso> I use that particular one in an IPv6 pretty printing algorithm :)
2022-10-12 06:57:29 +0000ski. o O ( free idempotent monoid )
2022-10-12 06:58:22 +0000 <dminuoso> Though I wrote it as a handwritten unrolled loop, as it peformed better
2022-10-12 06:58:52 +0000zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a20a:3e00:5712:52b0:ca1d:bc63)
2022-10-12 06:58:54 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-10-12 06:59:05 +0000 <dminuoso> well not unrolled.
2022-10-12 06:59:21 +0000 <ski> fused
2022-10-12 06:59:41 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a811112d37158fd9527.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-10-12 07:00:06 +0000dsrt^(~dsrt@c-76-17-6-165.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 07:00:22 +0000 <dminuoso> Lately I have begun applying expected optimizations by hand, rather than relying on GHC to do it for me.
2022-10-12 07:00:28 +0000 <ski> one wants to remove repetition of elements, in IPv6 ?
2022-10-12 07:00:52 +0000echoreply(~echoreply@45.32.163.16) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2022-10-12 07:01:01 +0000 <dminuoso> Yes, see [RFC5952 Section 4.2.2](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5952#section-4.2.2) and [RFC5952 Section 5](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5952#section-5)
2022-10-12 07:01:08 +0000ski. o O ( counboxed sums )
2022-10-12 07:01:21 +0000echoreply(~echoreply@45.32.163.16)
2022-10-12 07:01:39 +0000cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2022-10-12 07:01:54 +0000 <dminuoso> So you cound the find the largest consecutive word16s, and that is going to be represented as ::
2022-10-12 07:02:02 +0000 <dminuoso> s/cound the//
2022-10-12 07:03:09 +0000nshepperd2(nshepperd@2600:3c03::f03c:92ff:fe28:92c9)
2022-10-12 07:05:50 +0000 <ski> hm, so merging repeated `0's
2022-10-12 07:06:15 +0000 <dminuoso> Yes, but only the largest occurence of repeated `0's.
2022-10-12 07:06:25 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 07:06:29 +0000 <dminuoso> Otherwise the representation would be ambiguous obviously
2022-10-12 07:06:47 +0000 <ski> (reminds me vaguely of representing a partition with finite support .. perhaps by transpositions)
2022-10-12 07:07:10 +0000skinods
2022-10-12 07:07:44 +0000azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-10-12 07:08:14 +0000 <ski> @type \f n g -> fmap f (Data.Vector.generate n g)
2022-10-12 07:08:15 +0000 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> Int -> (Int -> a) -> Data.Vector.Vector b
2022-10-12 07:08:21 +0000 <ski> @type \f n g -> Data.Vector.generate n (f . g)
2022-10-12 07:08:22 +0000 <lambdabot> (b -> a) -> Int -> (Int -> b) -> Data.Vector.Vector a
2022-10-12 07:08:35 +0000 <dminuoso> What is interesting, is that only in IPv6 the representation is actually standardized. In IPv4, most implementations support a large variety of legacy artifacts of many old systems.
2022-10-12 07:08:40 +0000 <ski> @type \n -> PamfPilfRewol (Data.Vector.generate n)
2022-10-12 07:08:41 +0000 <lambdabot> Int -> Yoneda Data.Vector.Vector Int
2022-10-12 07:08:50 +0000 <ski> @type \f n -> fmap f (PamfPilfRewol (Data.Vector.generate n))
2022-10-12 07:08:51 +0000 <lambdabot> (Int -> b) -> Int -> Yoneda Data.Vector.Vector b
2022-10-12 07:08:55 +0000 <ski> @type \f n -> PamfPilfRewol (Data.Vector.generate n . (. f))
2022-10-12 07:08:56 +0000 <lambdabot> (Int -> a) -> Int -> Yoneda Data.Vector.Vector a
2022-10-12 07:09:13 +0000 <dminuoso> 3232271615 is for example in most implementations considered a valid IPv4 address representation, and accepted by most generic parsers. :)
2022-10-12 07:09:36 +0000 <ski> (the middle one generates a yoneda-ed vector of indices, which you can then map over)
2022-10-12 07:09:38 +0000 <dminuoso> Or 192.11046143 even
2022-10-12 07:10:15 +0000 <Axman6> wtf is PamfPilfRewol
2022-10-12 07:10:16 +0000 <ski> hm
2022-10-12 07:11:05 +0000 <dminuoso> :k PamfPilfRewol
2022-10-12 07:11:06 +0000 <lambdabot> (forall b. (a -> b) -> f b) -> Yoneda f a
2022-10-12 07:11:47 +0000 <dminuoso> Your best bet is to probably ripgrep through the entirety of hackage packages?
2022-10-12 07:12:52 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-10-12 07:17:03 +0000 <ski> > (concat . map ((\(x:xs) -> toUpper x : map toLower xs) . reverse) . unfoldr (\case [] -> Nothing; x:xs | isUpper x -> Just (first (x:) (span (not . isUpper) xs)) | otherwise -> Just (break isUpper xs))) "PamfPilfRewol"
2022-10-12 07:17:04 +0000 <lambdabot> "FmapFlipLower"
2022-10-12 07:17:46 +0000coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba)
2022-10-12 07:19:39 +0000 <ski> using
2022-10-12 07:19:44 +0000 <ski> data CoYoneda f b = forall a. FMapLift (a -> b) (f a)
2022-10-12 07:19:50 +0000 <ski> @type FMapLift
2022-10-12 07:19:51 +0000 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> f a -> CoYoneda f b
2022-10-12 07:19:53 +0000 <ski> @type (. liftCoYoneda) . fmap
2022-10-12 07:19:54 +0000 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> f a -> CoYoneda f b
2022-10-12 07:19:55 +0000 <ski> and
2022-10-12 07:20:02 +0000 <ski> newtype Yoneda f a = PamfPilfRewol {lowerFlipFmap :: forall b. (a -> b) -> f b}
2022-10-12 07:20:07 +0000 <ski> @type PamfPilfRewol
2022-10-12 07:20:08 +0000 <lambdabot> (forall b. (a -> b) -> f b) -> Yoneda f a
2022-10-12 07:20:11 +0000 <ski> @type lowerFlipFmap
2022-10-12 07:20:13 +0000 <lambdabot> Yoneda f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
2022-10-12 07:20:13 +0000 <ski> @type (lowerYoneda .) . flip fmap
2022-10-12 07:20:14 +0000 <lambdabot> Yoneda f a1 -> (a1 -> a2) -> f a2
2022-10-12 07:20:28 +0000asm(~alexander@burner.asm89.io) (Changing host)
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2022-10-12 07:27:28 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 07:29:03 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-10-12 07:39:02 +0000 <Axman6> Who is responsible for this nonsense
2022-10-12 07:42:02 +0000gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2022-10-12 08:37:25 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 08:42:05 +0000 <kuribas> are there other jvm functional languages like scala?
2022-10-12 08:42:19 +0000 <kuribas> (semi-)mainstream, not some student project
2022-10-12 08:42:31 +0000 <probie> Clojure? What does "like Scala" mean?
2022-10-12 08:42:44 +0000jmorris(uid537181@id-537181.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2022-10-12 08:42:57 +0000 <kuribas> static typed
2022-10-12 08:43:11 +0000 <kuribas> and functional
2022-10-12 08:43:32 +0000 <kuribas> (with ADTs, pattern matching, ...)
2022-10-12 08:43:49 +0000 <kuribas> wait, scala doesn't even have pattern matching, does it?
2022-10-12 08:44:44 +0000 <Franciman> kuribas: there used to be a haskell's clone
2022-10-12 08:44:54 +0000 <Franciman> https://eta-lang.org/
2022-10-12 08:45:02 +0000 <Franciman> not sure whether it's mantained anymore or nawt
2022-10-12 08:45:21 +0000 <kuribas> that's dead
2022-10-12 08:45:28 +0000 <kuribas> for the last three years or so.
2022-10-12 08:46:03 +0000ph88(~ph88@tmo-114-149.customers.d1-online.com)
2022-10-12 08:46:06 +0000 <kuribas> I mean, I can think of a few jvm functional languages (idris!), but nothing that is actually used in production.
2022-10-12 08:46:40 +0000talismanick(~talismani@2601:200:c100:c9e0::1b0b) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-10-12 08:47:21 +0000Midjak(~Midjak@82.66.147.146) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-10-12 08:49:51 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 08:50:56 +0000 <probie> Depending on your threshold for "functional", it's possible to write functional code with Kotlin using Arrow (although if Scala doesn't meet your benchmark, this won't).
2022-10-12 08:52:59 +0000 <kuribas> I believe they added ADTs in scala lately.
2022-10-12 08:53:18 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2022-10-12 08:53:30 +0000 <lortabac> how do I reload a package in GHCI?
2022-10-12 08:53:53 +0000 <Hecate> good question
2022-10-12 08:54:05 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-10-12 08:54:05 +0000 <comerijn> lortabac: define "package"? as in "cabal repl"?
2022-10-12 08:54:27 +0000 <Franciman> you can reload it by restarting ghci
2022-10-12 08:54:37 +0000Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28)
2022-10-12 08:54:56 +0000 <lortabac> comerijn: yes, I'm in cabal repl and I modified one of the dependencies. Now I would like to reload it without restarting GHCI
2022-10-12 08:54:57 +0000 <comerijn> lortabac: Does your package happen to have multiple components? (multiple libraries/1 lib + executable/etc.)?
2022-10-12 08:55:56 +0000 <lortabac> no, the dependency is another package inside the same cabal project
2022-10-12 08:55:57 +0000 <comerijn> lortabac: In case of multiple components (be it libraries+executable or "local" dependencies) short answer: pretty sure you can't right now
2022-10-12 08:56:12 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-10-12 08:56:22 +0000 <comerijn> Tough luck, ask again in 1 or 2 GHC releases ;)
2022-10-12 08:57:00 +0000 <lortabac> ok, then question number 2: is there a way to save the session in GHCI? :)
2022-10-12 08:57:10 +0000ph88(~ph88@tmo-114-149.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-10-12 08:57:30 +0000Vq_Vq
2022-10-12 08:57:36 +0000 <comerijn> No
2022-10-12 08:57:36 +0000 <lortabac> maybe I should make a GHCI script
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2022-10-12 09:00:25 +0000 <kuribas> lortabac: what I do sometimes is write preparatory definitions in a file, then load that in ghci using :load
2022-10-12 09:00:47 +0000 <kuribas> lortabac: then when I need to reload code, I can just reload that file.
2022-10-12 09:01:17 +0000 <lortabac> kuribas: good idea
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2022-10-12 10:29:56 +0000 <pyrogenum> Hi there! Is there someone who has experience with named (fifo) pipes in Haskell? I need to make use of some nodejs library and I think it makes sense to do the communication via pipes. The problem is that things in System.IO are non-blocking, for instance readFile "test.fifo" will just return nothing when nobody is writing into the pipe, rather
2022-10-12 10:29:57 +0000 <pyrogenum> than wait for data (until hitting an eof) character. I have managed to make things work by using blocking IO from System.Posix.IO but this seems to block the entire Haskell runtime and now things like forkIO don't do what I want them to do (also Ctrl-C to kill the process don't work). Thanks a lot for any help :-)
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2022-10-12 10:43:29 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2022-10-12 10:46:55 +0000 <dminuoso> pyrogenum: Use the threaded runtime
2022-10-12 10:50:23 +0000 <dminuoso> pyrogenum: also note, you're probably better off just spawning a worker thread instead.
2022-10-12 10:50:32 +0000 <dminuoso> while using the non-blocking API
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2022-10-12 10:51:17 +0000 <dminuoso> So lets talk about `forkIO` perhaps. How does it not do what you want?
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2022-10-12 10:55:36 +0000 <pyrogenum> Thanks for your answers. I have a function getPipeResult :: String -> IO String which does the blocking write and read things and in main I am now joining `forkIO $ getPipeResult "..." >>= putStrLn` and then `callCommand "node processing.js"` (which reads the pipes on the other side). This does not work. What does work is if I just start node in a
2022-10-12 10:55:37 +0000 <pyrogenum> seperate terminal after starting the Haskell program.
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2022-10-12 11:05:26 +0000 <dminuoso> Can you share the code in its entirety, perhaps?
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2022-10-12 11:11:35 +0000 <pyrogenum> Sure: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/VxSvjJ6H (the javascript thing on the other side is just an infinite loop which reads the input, does something to it and sends it back).
2022-10-12 11:13:11 +0000 <pyrogenum> Apologies for using several unqualified imports, I hope it isn't too unclear which functions belong to which libraries.
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2022-10-12 11:15:00 +0000 <dminuoso> Okay one thing that immediately comes to mind, you should usually not use readFile, especially not here.
2022-10-12 11:15:04 +0000 <dminuoso> Skip the forkIO
2022-10-12 11:16:52 +0000 <dminuoso> Or maybe not mmm.
2022-10-12 11:17:45 +0000 <dminuoso> pyrogenum: Can you include callCommand as well?
2022-10-12 11:18:03 +0000 <dminuoso> Oh hold on, thats from System.Process isnt it
2022-10-12 11:18:27 +0000 <pyrogenum> I guess you are saying that readFile is bad because things will be evaluated lazily which will behave terribly with OS operations.
2022-10-12 11:18:42 +0000 <pyrogenum> Yes, it is.
2022-10-12 11:19:14 +0000 <dminuoso> Yeah, in this particular spot it probably isnt a problem, just pointing it out
2022-10-12 11:19:47 +0000 <dminuoso> pyrogenum: So whats the behavior of this program? Will it block at all?
2022-10-12 11:21:00 +0000 <pyrogenum> It does block, but it doesn't produce any output. I'll check quickly whether something arrives on the javascript side.
2022-10-12 11:21:11 +0000 <dminuoso> Note, that one big problem with the way you are using forkIO, is that exceptions in the separate thread will be silent. So if for some reason callCommand fails, you will not know that it does.
2022-10-12 11:21:43 +0000 <dminuoso> I suspect it will fail opening the write side with ENXIO
2022-10-12 11:22:24 +0000 <dminuoso> If memory serves right, the reader has to open the fifo before the writer can open it
2022-10-12 11:22:40 +0000bahamas(~lucian@188.24.138.239)
2022-10-12 11:22:48 +0000 <dminuoso> And ditch the forkIO here.
2022-10-12 11:23:10 +0000 <dminuoso> (Just as a quick step to validate my theory)
2022-10-12 11:23:24 +0000 <dminuoso> If Im right, you have to rather forkIO the *reading* side first, and then start the command.
2022-10-12 11:23:43 +0000 <dminuoso> With some sort of synchronization
2022-10-12 11:25:32 +0000 <dminuoso> Or you have to repeatedly try and open for writing, perhaps with some sort of delay and a counter.
2022-10-12 11:25:38 +0000 <pyrogenum> The weird thing is though that it does work if I'm starting the processes in two separate terminals. Your memory does serve you right but if one writes in blocking mode then things block until it's possible to write (maybe the point is though that following this approach is inadvisable).
2022-10-12 11:26:44 +0000 <dminuoso> Mmm, I guess defaultFileFlags has nonBlock = False then
2022-10-12 11:26:52 +0000 <pyrogenum> Yes!
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2022-10-12 11:28:06 +0000 <pyrogenum> Your idea with repeatedly trying things is also on option though which would avoid having to go down to Posix.System.IO and staying in System.IO.
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2022-10-12 11:53:20 +0000 <pyrogenum> I managed to resolve this with the help of one of your comments. The solution was to apply `forkIO` to both the `callCommand` part and the `getPipeResult` which does the blocking IO. I don't quite understand why it makes a difference whether `getPipeResult` runs in the main thread or a forked one but more reading should help. Anyway, thanks a lot!
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2022-10-12 15:21:07 +0000 <zero> i just found a delicious comment on r/haskell:
2022-10-12 15:21:10 +0000 <zero> I think Haskell excels in supporting a healthy programming life style. It's slow compilation allows for ample breaks, walk outs and focusing eyes at a remote point outside of a screen.
2022-10-12 15:21:42 +0000yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a01:c23:5c26:be00:187b:414e:bfdd:8cf2)
2022-10-12 15:22:17 +0000 <tdammers> it also helps prevent balding from pulling your hair out every other hour
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2022-10-12 15:46:31 +0000talismanick(~talismani@2601:200:c100:c9e0::1b0b)
2022-10-12 15:47:27 +0000 <olivermead[m]> remember the 20:20:20 rule, every 20 minutes look at something 20m away from the office and spend 20 years off grid in the woods
2022-10-12 15:54:10 +0000zns(~zns@user/zns) (Quit: zzz)
2022-10-12 15:54:30 +0000 <tdammers> or the 80:20 rule: perform 80% for 20 years, after that just look busy
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2022-10-12 16:02:09 +0000 <olivermead[m]> reach ~80% in a logarithmic growth then taper linearly to 20% after 20 days, repeat
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2022-10-12 16:30:03 +0000 <EvanR> @tell kuribas re: functional on JVM... Frege
2022-10-12 16:30:03 +0000 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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2022-10-12 16:43:19 +0000 <EvanR> the Frege README says the following is a pure function: greeting friend = "Hello, " ++ friend ++ "!"
2022-10-12 16:43:45 +0000 <EvanR> and the following is an impure function because it returns IO (): main args = println (greeting "World")
2022-10-12 16:44:07 +0000 <EvanR> making me thonk
2022-10-12 16:47:05 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2022-10-12 16:47:18 +0000 <EvanR> impure and laziness is supposed to be an unstable toxic mixture
2022-10-12 16:48:14 +0000yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@31-196-142-46.pool.kielnet.net)
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2022-10-12 16:57:41 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2022-10-12 16:58:09 +0000 <ski> .. confused terminology
2022-10-12 16:58:20 +0000 <geekosaur> as I understand it, it's not unstable or toxic, it just negates the advantages of laziness because you lose all the optimization possibilities
2022-10-12 16:58:54 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:9960:b0f8:561f:a74b)
2022-10-12 16:59:30 +0000 <EvanR> oh, maybe there is a way to define the evaluation so the effects you want somehow do happen? once?
2022-10-12 16:59:52 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
2022-10-12 17:00:07 +0000 <EvanR> in some predictable order, perhaps backwards
2022-10-12 17:00:37 +0000 <davean> EvanR: Infact that is exactly how IO works
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2022-10-12 17:01:00 +0000 <davean> it just has a chain of dependencies
2022-10-12 17:01:04 +0000 <davean> through the monad
2022-10-12 17:01:09 +0000 <EvanR> all I know about that is ReadWorld is deeply magical
2022-10-12 17:01:16 +0000 <geekosaur> in fact it's not
2022-10-12 17:01:18 +0000 <EvanR> s/Read/Real/
2022-10-12 17:01:19 +0000 <davean> newtype IO a = IO (State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, a #))
2022-10-12 17:01:27 +0000 <davean> Its not magical at all
2022-10-12 17:01:35 +0000 <geekosaur> it's just a phantoom dependency that ensures IO happens in order
2022-10-12 17:01:36 +0000 <davean> Its exactly a dependency
2022-10-12 17:01:53 +0000 <davean> which is also why they lie when they claim that example is impure
2022-10-12 17:02:00 +0000 <EvanR> is this an example of messing up optimizations like geekosaur said
2022-10-12 17:02:08 +0000 <geekosaur> no
2022-10-12 17:02:22 +0000 <davean> well it sorta prevents optimizations.
2022-10-12 17:02:29 +0000 <geekosaur> it does mean you can't for example do let-hoisting through IO
2022-10-12 17:02:41 +0000 <geekosaur> whereas you can if IO isn't involved (or ST or STM)
2022-10-12 17:03:03 +0000 <davean> The chain of RealWorlds locks everything in place
2022-10-12 17:03:13 +0000 <davean> because they are ACTUALLY LOCKED IN PLACE
2022-10-12 17:03:24 +0000 <davean> There is no optimization to do in the face of them
2022-10-12 17:03:35 +0000yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@31-196-142-46.pool.kielnet.net)
2022-10-12 17:04:09 +0000 <EvanR> so the function contained in that IO is an impure function? what's going on
2022-10-12 17:04:51 +0000 <davean> why do you think there is impurity, other than Frege lieing to you?
2022-10-12 17:05:02 +0000 <EvanR> asking about haskell
2022-10-12 17:05:03 +0000 <[exa]> EvanR: it is perfectly pure in haskell, but the runtime interprets it as something impure
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2022-10-12 17:05:47 +0000 <[exa]> (in haskell. I have no idea about Frege and I'm kinda surprised that the project still goes on)
2022-10-12 17:05:56 +0000 <geekosaur> you can think of Haskell as building a pure chain of actions which the runtime executes possibly impurely
2022-10-12 17:06:28 +0000 <davean> [exa]: Frege isn't anything but a GHC fork they changed the name of and tried to build a brand around?
2022-10-12 17:06:32 +0000 <geekosaur> linked together by data dependencies including the dependency on RealWorld injected by the IO monad
2022-10-12 17:06:41 +0000 <EvanR> e.g. the guts of getChar is a function which takes a dummy dependency, does the systemcall, and returns a new dep and a char?
2022-10-12 17:06:59 +0000 <davean> EvanR: that is what basicly happens.
2022-10-12 17:07:17 +0000 <[exa]> whew wait they forked ghc???
2022-10-12 17:07:17 +0000 <EvanR> interesting
2022-10-12 17:07:34 +0000 <davean> [exa]: yes? I mean blame SPJ and such for that, and refusing to accept new backends?
2022-10-12 17:07:58 +0000 <davean> Its not like they had a choice
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2022-10-12 17:08:20 +0000 <davean> You might notice like no one would accept GHCJS for a decade too
2022-10-12 17:08:22 +0000 <[exa]> Languages: Java 29% Frege 68%
2022-10-12 17:08:26 +0000 <[exa]> ok likely not a fork
2022-10-12 17:08:41 +0000 <[exa]> that would be one piece of effort back in 2014 :D
2022-10-12 17:09:53 +0000 <[exa]> EvanR: anyway you were kinda right that it's magic. Internally RealWorld is afaik either Void# or (# #) or something like that, and # is by definition a MagicHash!
2022-10-12 17:09:55 +0000 <davean> [exa]: I mean GHCJS was before 2014 and is
2022-10-12 17:10:46 +0000 <EvanR> the RealWorld is less magical than this function which when applied causes side effects xD
2022-10-12 17:10:53 +0000 <EvanR> shattering my haskell worldview
2022-10-12 17:11:17 +0000 <davean> I COULD be mixing up my Haskell on JVMs
2022-10-12 17:11:31 +0000 <geekosaur> there is one piece of magic: codegen realizes RealWorld# has a 0-length representation and removes it from the code
2022-10-12 17:11:52 +0000 <[exa]> EvanR: you can't apply it because there's no way to get the RealWorld for it (except obviously for unsafeBreakEverythingAlsoBurnifyPerformIO)
2022-10-12 17:12:07 +0000 <EvanR> yes it's behind the scenes
2022-10-12 17:12:08 +0000 <davean> oh I think I am, sorry [exa] I think i mean eta
2022-10-12 17:12:30 +0000 <[exa]> davean: ok good I was suspecting a mix-up :D
2022-10-12 17:12:56 +0000 <geekosaur> I have to say I don't blame the ghc devs much for refusing to accept new backends
2022-10-12 17:13:15 +0000 <geekosaur> they really need a rule saying "we accept <x> only if it comes with at least one maintainer"
2022-10-12 17:13:15 +0000 <EvanR> i saw a different way to do the guts involving primitive IO bind chains, like a free monad ish
2022-10-12 17:13:23 +0000 <geekosaur> otherwise you get e.g. DPH
2022-10-12 17:13:31 +0000 <[exa]> davean: btw eta project is alive or not?
2022-10-12 17:13:49 +0000 <davean> [exa]: oh dead
2022-10-12 17:14:07 +0000 <davean> Trying to make a company out of that sort of thing is hard
2022-10-12 17:14:46 +0000 <[exa]> ah.
2022-10-12 17:15:39 +0000 <EvanR> since the idea that frege is lying seems to be based on it being GHC... I go back to square 1 xD
2022-10-12 17:15:51 +0000 <geekosaur> EvanR, there's several ways to do it. Hugs used a different one from GHC IIRC
2022-10-12 17:16:06 +0000hochata(~user@user/hochata)
2022-10-12 17:16:20 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-10-12 17:16:57 +0000 <[exa]> EvanR: I'd still say it's better than in ye olden dayes when patternmatching a list caused this impure operation
2022-10-12 17:18:13 +0000 <EvanR> that sounds fun
2022-10-12 17:18:23 +0000 <EvanR> to explain
2022-10-12 17:19:18 +0000 <[exa]> well, you don't need monads then
2022-10-12 17:19:42 +0000 <davean> oh it was just a lazy list of input, transformed into a lazy list of outputs
2022-10-12 17:19:51 +0000 <[exa]> yap
2022-10-12 17:20:10 +0000 <ski> (Mercury does the same with FFI calls, does a `IO = IO0;' .. e.g. <https://lists.mercurylang.org/archives/users/2022-September/009675.html>)
2022-10-12 17:20:12 +0000 <EvanR> or was it a lazy list of responses transformed into a lazy list of requests
2022-10-12 17:20:22 +0000 <johnjaye> i've heard there are companies based on haskell
2022-10-12 17:20:31 +0000 <geekosaur> [Response] -> [Request]
2022-10-12 17:20:35 +0000 <[exa]> (LazyByteString can still do the same right?)
2022-10-12 17:20:38 +0000 <johnjaye> one time a guy told me he works in the military on jets and uses it
2022-10-12 17:20:43 +0000 <geekosaur> with the initial Response being the parameters, I think?
2022-10-12 17:20:53 +0000 <EvanR> that's so wacky I love it
2022-10-12 17:20:54 +0000 <geekosaur> unsafeInterleaveIO
2022-10-12 17:21:04 +0000 <davean> johnjaye: A decent number, but thats different than selling a compiler and ecosystem
2022-10-12 17:21:06 +0000 <EvanR> your program and the world form an ouroboros
2022-10-12 17:21:19 +0000 <johnjaye> oh you meant ghc itself
2022-10-12 17:21:28 +0000 <geekosaur> but $SOMEONE help you if you get out of sync
2022-10-12 17:21:36 +0000 <johnjaye> yeah that's more of a fuzzy thing. bug having a company to 'back' the ecosystem can be good sometimes
2022-10-12 17:21:39 +0000 <[exa]> johnjaye: there are really good tools for generating safe static code with haskell, which might be a good usecase there
2022-10-12 17:21:46 +0000 <johnjaye> like ubuntu and canonical or redhat and fedora/qemu/misc things
2022-10-12 17:22:04 +0000 <davean> johnjaye: it can be, but bootstrapping it from scratch by calling it "not haskell" makes your life harder.
2022-10-12 17:22:22 +0000 <davean> Note that like RH claims to be selling you linux support
2022-10-12 17:22:23 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 17:22:55 +0000 <EvanR> I've heard companies using haskell need to retain a "haskell professor". Which kind of sounds more expensive than a subscription to GHC tech support
2022-10-12 17:23:02 +0000 <dminuoso> I found, when you want XYZ support, its best to just hire or train someone to be competent in XYZ.
2022-10-12 17:23:05 +0000 <johnjaye> so a company couldn't call itself Haskell Inc and take over ghc and run things?
2022-10-12 17:23:06 +0000dminuososhrugs
2022-10-12 17:23:10 +0000 <ski> (iiuc, the main problem, from a theoretical standpoint, with the `State# RealWorld', is that it doesn't really account for exceptions, concurrency)
2022-10-12 17:23:17 +0000 <ski> EvanR : "i saw a different way to do the guts involving primitive IO bind chains, like a free monad ish" -- elaborate ?
2022-10-12 17:23:25 +0000 <dminuoso> johnjaye: To be fair, Well Typed is just that. :p
2022-10-12 17:23:31 +0000 <ski> geekosaur : yes, with explicit exception continuation, iirc
2022-10-12 17:24:05 +0000 <EvanR> way 1 is in the idris implementation, way 2 was in a talk by ekmett which might be what they did in (proprietary language). I can try to find links
2022-10-12 17:24:11 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-10-12 17:24:18 +0000 <ski> no the `type Dialogue = [Response] -> [Request]' was the pre-monadic way
2022-10-12 17:24:29 +0000 <geekosaur> Ermine?
2022-10-12 17:25:25 +0000 <ski> (basically coding in `Cont Dialogue' .. except with no `Cont', manual plumbing (sometimes with an alternative continuation, for failure))
2022-10-12 17:25:58 +0000 <ski> @type interact
2022-10-12 17:25:59 +0000 <lambdabot> (String -> String) -> IO ()
2022-10-12 17:29:53 +0000 <ski> @hoogle f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
2022-10-12 17:29:54 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.Functor (<&>) :: Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
2022-10-12 17:29:54 +0000 <lambdabot> Control.Lens.Lens (<&>) :: Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
2022-10-12 17:29:54 +0000 <lambdabot> Control.Lens.Operators (<&>) :: Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
2022-10-12 17:30:01 +0000 <ski> @hoogle f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
2022-10-12 17:30:03 +0000 <lambdabot> Control.Lens.Lens (??) :: Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
2022-10-12 17:30:03 +0000 <lambdabot> Control.Lens.Operators (??) :: Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
2022-10-12 17:30:03 +0000 <lambdabot> Diagrams.Prelude (??) :: Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
2022-10-12 17:30:12 +0000 <ski> @hoogle (a -> f b) -> f (a -> b)
2022-10-12 17:30:13 +0000 <lambdabot> No results found
2022-10-12 17:30:36 +0000 <ski> what could the last one be called ?
2022-10-12 17:30:50 +0000 <ski> `costrength' ??
2022-10-12 17:31:50 +0000 <EvanR> ski, hmm... this is the latest idris 1 https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris-dev/blob/28fa2d88a8620ea6d30ed3a6a282dffec1c4c9cb/libs/prelude…
2022-10-12 17:32:51 +0000zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a20a:3e00:5712:52b0:ca1d:bc63) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-10-12 17:33:40 +0000 <EvanR> they are using some kind of World (which was annoying when you wanted to use this word for your own purposes) in IO too, but they don't have laziness... ... they parameterize over an FFI but don't seem to use it for anything at the value level
2022-10-12 17:33:52 +0000 <EvanR> ok they do have lazy annotation maybe that's why
2022-10-12 17:34:21 +0000 <EvanR> now I go find way 2 which actually involved an ffi
2022-10-12 17:34:28 +0000freeside(~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-10-12 17:35:14 +0000mbuf(~Shakthi@49.205.87.152) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-10-12 17:37:38 +0000 <ski> hm, seems they don't return a `World' ?
2022-10-12 17:37:47 +0000 <ski> seems a fair bit magical
2022-10-12 17:39:52 +0000 <EvanR> and this is not what I was thinking of for way 2... where the hell is that blog post... https://github.com/ermine-language/ermine/blob/master/stdlib/Prelude/IO/Unsafe.e
2022-10-12 17:40:47 +0000jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2022-10-12 17:42:00 +0000 <ski> sorry, which one was way 1 and way 2 ?
2022-10-12 17:46:36 +0000Natch(~natch@c-9e07225c.038-60-73746f7.bbcust.telenor.se) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-10-12 17:47:30 +0000talismanick(~talismani@2601:200:c100:c9e0::1b0b) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 17:48:01 +0000 <EvanR> doesn't matter because I wouldn't find either
2022-10-12 17:48:26 +0000Natch(~natch@c-9e07225c.038-60-73746f7.bbcust.telenor.se)
2022-10-12 17:50:10 +0000razetime(~quassel@117.193.1.101) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2022-10-12 17:50:21 +0000freeside(~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg)
2022-10-12 17:55:19 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
2022-10-12 17:55:19 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-10-12 17:55:19 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-10-12 17:55:58 +0000 <EvanR> something like, ConstructorName :: ffi i o -> i -> (o -> IO a) -> IO a
2022-10-12 17:56:33 +0000 <dolio> hbc might have worked something like that. I've never looked at it in detail.
2022-10-12 17:59:43 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-12 18:00:15 +0000HP-UXLinux
2022-10-12 18:01:57 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 18:03:23 +0000 <dolio> I guess it's just the Cont Dialogue thing.
2022-10-12 18:03:37 +0000elbear(~lucian@188.24.138.239) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 18:06:11 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-10-12 18:06:39 +0000 <ski> EvanR : that does sound similar to `newtype IO a = MkIO ((a -> IOResult) -> IOResult)' with `data IOResult = Done | PutChar Char IOResult | GetChar (Char -> IOResult) | ...'
2022-10-12 18:08:31 +0000econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-10-12 18:08:45 +0000 <EvanR> yes. but there was this edk tweak which simplified it further, and the ffi "actions" were not to be interpreted, but implemented as i -> o, and strung together for effects. I think
2022-10-12 18:10:56 +0000 <dolio> EvanR's is a sort of free monad, which Cont is not.
2022-10-12 18:12:34 +0000 <ski> you could easily make a variant `data IO a = Return a | Done | PutChar Char (IO a) | GetChar (Char -> IO a) | ...'
2022-10-12 18:12:56 +0000 <dolio> Essentially it is the free monad generated from the algebraic signature `ffi`.
2022-10-12 18:13:27 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:9960:b0f8:561f:a74b) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 18:14:13 +0000 <dolio> Similar to what you do for algebraic effects.
2022-10-12 18:15:39 +0000elbear(~lucian@188.24.138.239)
2022-10-12 18:25:46 +0000 <EvanR> um https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bN7wwneC
2022-10-12 18:26:10 +0000 <EvanR> this is freemonad ish, yeah
2022-10-12 18:27:25 +0000 <ski> fmap = liftM
2022-10-12 18:27:44 +0000dr_merijn(~dr_merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-10-12 18:28:55 +0000 <EvanR> so it is
2022-10-12 18:29:43 +0000 <dolio> Yes, if `ffi` is just an enum GADT that uses i to specify input arity, and o to specify output arity, then this is exactly algebraic effects.
2022-10-12 18:30:20 +0000 <EvanR> \o/
2022-10-12 18:30:56 +0000 <dolio> An `i -> o` operation becomes an `(o -> T) -> (i -> T)` operation, and this is the free monad for that.
2022-10-12 18:31:27 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@104-55-37-220.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-10-12 18:32:12 +0000dr_merijn(~dr_merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-10-12 18:32:36 +0000 <EvanR> what's T
2022-10-12 18:33:22 +0000 <dolio> T is the model of the algebra. `IO a` is the free model with variables in `a`.
2022-10-12 18:33:59 +0000ski. o O ( ⌜(+),(⊕),(⋅) : 2² → 2¹⌝ )
2022-10-12 18:34:46 +0000 <Franciman> dolio: where did you learn all this model theory?
2022-10-12 18:35:17 +0000 <dolio> Just read the algebraic effects papers.
2022-10-12 18:35:24 +0000 <dolio> Plotkin and Power.
2022-10-12 18:35:30 +0000 <Franciman> thnx
2022-10-12 18:35:44 +0000 <Franciman> plotkin and power seems a nice slogan
2022-10-12 18:35:50 +0000ski. o O ( "Strong functors, strong monads" (slides) by Tarmo Uustalu at <https://cs.ioc.ee/~tarmo/ssgep15/ssgep-1a.pdf>,<https://cs.ioc.ee/~tarmo/ssgep15/> )
2022-10-12 18:36:26 +0000 <Franciman> apparently Moggi's work has faded and made room for many more developments!
2022-10-12 18:36:28 +0000 <Franciman> yay
2022-10-12 18:37:15 +0000hochata(~user@user/hochata) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-10-12 18:37:39 +0000nschoe(~q@2a01:e0a:8e:a190:2bc1:5610:b26:873c)
2022-10-12 18:38:14 +0000Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus)
2022-10-12 18:41:01 +0000atwm(~atwm@185.234.70.94)
2022-10-12 18:41:45 +0000ski. o O ( "In the Power Domain Order, they are all Plotkin." )
2022-10-12 18:41:51 +0000 <EvanR> Institute of Cybernetics in Tallinn, nice
2022-10-12 18:42:39 +0000 <EvanR> why couldn't I have have gone to college at a place with a fucking rad name like that
2022-10-12 18:43:38 +0000atwm(~atwm@185.234.70.94) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 18:45:06 +0000nschoe(~q@2a01:e0a:8e:a190:2bc1:5610:b26:873c) (Quit: Switching off)
2022-10-12 18:46:40 +0000k``(~user@152.1.137.158)
2022-10-12 18:48:09 +0000LinuxHP-UX
2022-10-12 18:48:21 +0000 <k``> Is the law `mx >> mzero` = `mzero` a mistake/typo? Or should the `IO` and `ReadP` `MonadPlus` instances be removed?
2022-10-12 18:48:22 +0000 <EvanR> ski, what is the relation between strong monads and stuff we were actually talking about xD
2022-10-12 18:49:05 +0000HP-UXSysV
2022-10-12 18:49:06 +0000 <EvanR> > Just 3 >> mzero
2022-10-12 18:49:07 +0000 <lambdabot> Nothing
2022-10-12 18:50:02 +0000 <k``> > print "Hi there" >> mzero
2022-10-12 18:50:04 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2022-10-12 18:50:04 +0000 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Typeable b0)
2022-10-12 18:50:04 +0000 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M36784398342963031606’
2022-10-12 18:51:14 +0000 <k``> > print Nothing >> mzero
2022-10-12 18:51:15 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2022-10-12 18:51:15 +0000 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Typeable b0)
2022-10-12 18:51:15 +0000 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M90845009386314507’
2022-10-12 18:51:21 +0000 <k``> ?
2022-10-12 18:51:26 +0000ski. o O ( "Non-determinism in Functional Languages" by Harald Søndergaard,Peter Sestoft in 1988-08,1992-05 at <http://comjnl.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/5/514.abstract> (mentions Hoare,Smyth,Plotkin / Egli-Milner orderings on power domains ) )
2022-10-12 18:51:35 +0000 <ski> @help run
2022-10-12 18:51:35 +0000 <lambdabot> run <expr>. You have Haskell, 3 seconds and no IO. Go nuts!
2022-10-12 18:51:35 +0000 <k``> > print () >> mzero
2022-10-12 18:51:37 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2022-10-12 18:51:37 +0000 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Typeable b0)
2022-10-12 18:51:37 +0000 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M9476205005181858498’
2022-10-12 18:51:57 +0000 <ski> > print () >> mzero :: IO ()
2022-10-12 18:51:59 +0000 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
2022-10-12 18:52:11 +0000 <EvanR> % print "hello"
2022-10-12 18:52:11 +0000 <yahb2> "hello"
2022-10-12 18:52:18 +0000 <EvanR> % print "hello" >> mzero
2022-10-12 18:52:18 +0000 <yahb2> <interactive>:30:18: error: Variable not in scope: mzero :: IO b
2022-10-12 18:54:06 +0000 <ski> % print "hello" >> Control.Monad.mzero
2022-10-12 18:54:06 +0000 <yahb2> "hello" ; *** Exception: user error (mzero)
2022-10-12 18:54:22 +0000 <ski> @wiki MonadPlus
2022-10-12 18:54:22 +0000 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/MonadPlus
2022-10-12 18:54:26 +0000 <ski> @wiki MonadPlus reform proposal
2022-10-12 18:54:26 +0000 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/MonadPlus_reform_proposal
2022-10-12 18:54:38 +0000 <ski> k`` : where are you looking ?
2022-10-12 18:54:46 +0000gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 18:55:11 +0000 <k``> The description of `MonadPlus` in its Haddoc:
2022-10-12 18:55:25 +0000 <k``> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/Control-Monad.html#t:MonadPlus
2022-10-12 18:55:50 +0000Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: Exeunt juan@acm.org)
2022-10-12 18:56:20 +0000 <ski> "The precise set of rules that MonadPlus should obey is not agreed upon."
2022-10-12 18:56:50 +0000SysVQNX
2022-10-12 18:56:55 +0000 <k``> Right. So it could obey some unspecified set of rules, plus the ones that are actually required in the doc.
2022-10-12 18:56:59 +0000 <EvanR> is there an imprecise set of rules it should obey?
2022-10-12 18:57:11 +0000 <k``> Like it doesn't have to satisfy left catch or distribution.
2022-10-12 18:57:17 +0000 <ski> .. also, i'm not really that fond of `MonadPlus IO' (randomly swallowing exceptions doesn't seem too great an idea, to me)
2022-10-12 18:57:24 +0000 <ski> k`` : what's the `ReadP' issue ?
2022-10-12 18:57:49 +0000 <k``> `get ; empty` consumes input.
2022-10-12 18:58:05 +0000 <ski> .. and commits ?
2022-10-12 19:00:22 +0000 <ski> iirc, `ReadP' does parallel parsing (due to Claessen, also see e.g. <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsek>), doesn't commit (so no `try')
2022-10-12 19:00:50 +0000 <ski> if it doesn't commit, surely it's equivalent to just `empty', ?
2022-10-12 19:01:05 +0000QNX(~kernel@user/OpenSource) (K-Lined)
2022-10-12 19:01:35 +0000 <EvanR> the link to the functional pearl is broken in there
2022-10-12 19:05:00 +0000 <k``> (<|>) is basically parallel, but `get *> empty` does not use <|>. That said, I'm not sure whether it's possible to observe that input was consumed in a failed branch. In which case I'm wrong about ReadP, but it still holds for IO (and I think Parsec-like parsers).
2022-10-12 19:05:47 +0000 <k``> I'm ignoring the monoid laws because a legal instance that didn't throw away useful errors could be defined for IO, even though it isn't.
2022-10-12 19:07:09 +0000 <dolio> Probably the right-zero rule should just be removed.
2022-10-12 19:07:34 +0000 <dolio> From the documentation.
2022-10-12 19:08:14 +0000 <k``> Makes sense. Would certainly be less disruptive than removing the IO instance...
2022-10-12 19:10:57 +0000gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-10-12 19:14:01 +0000 <ski> EvanR : try <https://web.archive.org/web/20100325144945/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~koen/pubs/entry-jfp04-parser…>,<https://web.archive.org/web/20061012125410if_/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~koen/pubs/jfp04-parser.ps>
2022-10-12 19:14:05 +0000waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:213:7200:cc36:a556:b1e8:b340)
2022-10-12 19:14:36 +0000 <EvanR> got it
2022-10-12 19:15:56 +0000 <ski> anyway .. one problem with right zero is partiality `undefined >> mzero = undefined >>= \_ -> mzero = undefined', not being `mzero'
2022-10-12 19:16:12 +0000nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-10-12 19:16:35 +0000 <k``> Also an example of why (<>) :: () -> () -> () should be strict.
2022-10-12 19:16:55 +0000zns(~zns@user/zns) (Quit: zzz)
2022-10-12 19:17:17 +0000 <ski> (`undefined *> empty' could conceivably get `empty', though. but if we want `empty *> undefined = empty' as well, we'd need "parallel or" kind of thing, spawing racing computations for the two matches)
2022-10-12 19:17:23 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-10-12 19:17:33 +0000 <ski> k`` : hm ?
2022-10-12 19:17:36 +0000talismanick(~talismani@99-113-70-120.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-10-12 19:18:14 +0000 <k``> () is the unit of (<>), so `undefined <> ()` should be `undefined`.
2022-10-12 19:18:47 +0000zerozzz
2022-10-12 19:18:49 +0000 <dminuoso> And indeed it is. :>
2022-10-12 19:18:51 +0000 <ski> yes, but we were talking about `Alternative' and `MonadPlus', not `Monoid' ?
2022-10-12 19:19:24 +0000 <k``> Right, just giving a similar example of laws affecting strictness requirements.
2022-10-12 19:19:24 +0000 <ski> and `undefined >> _' already is `undefined', for `IO',&c.
2022-10-12 19:19:28 +0000ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 19:19:39 +0000freeside(~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-12 19:19:45 +0000 <k``> > undefined <> ()
2022-10-12 19:19:47 +0000 <lambdabot> ()
2022-10-12 19:19:55 +0000 <k``> () <> undefined
2022-10-12 19:20:03 +0000 <k``> > () <> undefined
2022-10-12 19:20:05 +0000 <lambdabot> ()
2022-10-12 19:20:13 +0000 <ski> ah, so you're remarking specifically on the `Monoid ()' (or `Semigroup ()') instance
2022-10-12 19:20:41 +0000freeside(~mengwong@bb115-66-48-84.singnet.com.sg)
2022-10-12 19:20:41 +0000 <k``> Should be defined `() <> y = y` or `x <> () = x`.
2022-10-12 19:20:42 +0000 <dminuoso> Keep in mind that most laws that govern our typeclasses only exist if we pretend bottom does not exist.
2022-10-12 19:21:14 +0000nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 19:21:36 +0000causal(~user@50.35.83.177)
2022-10-12 19:22:16 +0000 <ski> > let !_ = second chr undefined :: (Bool,Char) in ()
2022-10-12 19:22:17 +0000 <lambdabot> ()
2022-10-12 19:22:17 +0000 <k``> The cool thing about Monoid is its laws work even in the presence of bottoms.
2022-10-12 19:22:18 +0000 <ski> > let !_ = fmap chr undefined :: (Bool,Char) in ()
2022-10-12 19:22:20 +0000 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
2022-10-12 19:22:44 +0000 <k``> Unlike, say naiive annihilative laws.
2022-10-12 19:23:01 +0000 <ski> k`` : or `() <> () = ()' or `() <> y@() = y', say
2022-10-12 19:23:34 +0000 <dminuoso> k``: Sure, but that would introduce an additional burden of say (<>) being strict on both sides.
2022-10-12 19:23:53 +0000azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2022-10-12 19:24:02 +0000 <dminuoso> So its best to not make that demand and pretend bottoms dont exist for the sake of the law. It's just more useful than the idealistic construction of a lawful universe in the presence of bottoms.
2022-10-12 19:24:09 +0000 <k``> Yeah, with `() <> () = ()` you have to know how GHC evaluates arguments to know which bottom you get in `undefined "first" <> undefined "second"`.
2022-10-12 19:24:14 +0000 <k``> But that's fine.
2022-10-12 19:24:28 +0000 <ski> hmm .. i wonder how these choices would affect stuff like `rnf' and strategies (e.g. re tail calls)
2022-10-12 19:24:28 +0000 <dminuoso> This applies to a lot of monoids.
2022-10-12 19:25:04 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@104-55-37-220.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 19:25:28 +0000 <k``> But the lazy <> for () has caused a few memorable memory leaks. Not sure if that's ideal.
2022-10-12 19:25:31 +0000 <ski> behaviour on bottoms tend to matter when you're tying knots
2022-10-12 19:26:01 +0000 <ski> (chasing your own tail, hoping you don't reach it, stopping progress)
2022-10-12 19:28:10 +0000finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192)
2022-10-12 19:28:13 +0000xsebek(~xsebek@swarm.znchost.com) (www.ZNCHost.com)
2022-10-12 19:29:17 +0000 <k``> Anyway, glad to hear I can safely ignore Monad right annihilation.
2022-10-12 19:29:58 +0000 <drlkf> janus: i ended up just doing it manually with a do block because i needed to read the strings into numbers too
2022-10-12 19:30:11 +0000 <k``> > fmap id (undefined :: ((),()))
2022-10-12 19:30:12 +0000 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
2022-10-12 19:31:25 +0000 <k``> foldMap (\_-> ()) (undefined :: ((), ()))
2022-10-12 19:31:27 +0000 <drlkf> but the question was more like is there something that exists in the same vein as the (.:) operator
2022-10-12 19:31:48 +0000elbear(~lucian@188.24.138.239) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 19:32:16 +0000 <k``> > foldMap (\_->()) (undefined :: ((),()))
2022-10-12 19:32:17 +0000 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
2022-10-12 19:32:18 +0000ft(~ft@p3e9bc57b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-10-12 19:32:32 +0000 <drlkf> otherwise i could always combine withArray, Aeson.Lens.nth and fail when matching Nothing
2022-10-12 19:33:08 +0000zero(~z@user/zero)
2022-10-12 19:33:28 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 19:35:59 +0000zzz(~z@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-10-12 19:41:48 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-10-12 19:42:21 +0000johnw(~johnw@2600:1700:cf00:db0:b1b8:33de:e15a:f4eb)
2022-10-12 19:46:54 +0000 <johnw> back when the world was young, I could use CABAL_BUILDDIR to decide where the `dist` directory goes. What is the equivalent now in the days of `dist-newstyle`?
2022-10-12 19:47:15 +0000 <jmcantrell> with ghcup, is there a way to set the system version as the default?
2022-10-12 19:51:59 +0000 <dmj`> johnw: --builddir=<dir> ?
2022-10-12 19:52:08 +0000 <johnw> it seems to be ignoring it
2022-10-12 19:52:25 +0000 <geekosaur> jmcantrell, just set the system version earlier on $PATH
2022-10-12 19:53:30 +0000takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 19:53:33 +0000 <jmcantrell> how would i use a ghcup version at the project level?
2022-10-12 19:54:23 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 19:55:16 +0000 <AndreasK> johnw: `cabal build --builddir=my-dist-dir` works for me
2022-10-12 19:56:05 +0000 <geekosaur> cabal -w (or cabal-project 'with-compiler')
2022-10-12 19:57:13 +0000 <geekosaur> note that the system one usually won't have a version, so '-w ghc' would get you that while '-w ghc-9.2.4' or etc. would get you a ghcup version. (verify this though)
2022-10-12 19:57:28 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2022-10-12 19:57:29 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:657b:163b:3e09:9614)
2022-10-12 19:57:52 +0000 <geekosaur> if necessary you can use a full pathname
2022-10-12 19:58:53 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-12 19:59:22 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 19:59:32 +0000 <jmcantrell> ok, thanks
2022-10-12 20:00:30 +0000Guest51(~Guest51@205.175.106.169)
2022-10-12 20:01:03 +0000 <Guest51> With Neovim and CoC, how can I get HLS to properly identify the project root?
2022-10-12 20:01:20 +0000 <Guest51> Is there at least a way to manually set or change the project root?
2022-10-12 20:02:11 +0000 <geekosaur> hie.yaml?
2022-10-12 20:05:20 +0000 <geekosaur> Guest51, I have an example https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0jiF7xM3
2022-10-12 20:05:35 +0000 <talismanick> I case-matched on readMaybe; HLS now suggests "replace case with maybe"
2022-10-12 20:05:54 +0000 <geekosaur> not much going on, I mostly created that one to stop HIE from poking at a lot of other stuff
2022-10-12 20:05:54 +0000 <talismanick> not sure how that works, looking at the type signature of maybe :: b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
2022-10-12 20:06:29 +0000 <geekosaur> <Nothing-case> <Just-case> <Maybe-expr>
2022-10-12 20:06:42 +0000_xor(~xor@74.215.182.83)
2022-10-12 20:06:46 +0000 <geekosaur> it's basically a case match as a function
2022-10-12 20:07:07 +0000 <talismanick> Where might I find an example of it in context?
2022-10-12 20:07:13 +0000 <geekosaur> that said, that's the kind of HLS complaint I usually shut off
2022-10-12 20:07:14 +0000 <Guest51> This is relatively common practice in Haskell thanks to lazy evaluation
2022-10-12 20:07:44 +0000 <_xor> Not very familiar with Haskell/Cabal. What do I need to look into if I want to vendor dependencies and run `cabal v2-update && cabal v2-build ...` offline?
2022-10-12 20:08:18 +0000 <geekosaur> https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-project.html#specifying-the-local-packages
2022-10-12 20:09:25 +0000 <ski> talismanick : hlint is sometimes better ignored
2022-10-12 20:09:45 +0000 <tomsmeding> it's not HLS directly that gives this particular notice; that's the hlint plugin of HLS
2022-10-12 20:10:05 +0000 <tomsmeding> I say this because I love HLS but I don't like hlint, and I wish to note that it is possible to turn off hlint in HLS :)
2022-10-12 20:10:06 +0000 <_xor> Ah ok, I see.
2022-10-12 20:10:24 +0000 <geekosaur> that said, I don't think you meant running v2-update offline since by definition it's online to update the master package index. perhaps you wanted v2-build --only-dependencies
2022-10-12 20:10:38 +0000 <tomsmeding> _xor: oops, that was directed at talismanick and geekosaur
2022-10-12 20:10:43 +0000 <Guest51> I tried adding an hie.yaml file with similar contents and now I get "unknown local package: haskell-ide-engine"
2022-10-12 20:10:54 +0000biberu(~biberu@user/biberu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-10-12 20:11:08 +0000 <geekosaur> o.O
2022-10-12 20:11:33 +0000 <geekosaur> you might have to ask in #haskell-language-server
2022-10-12 20:15:36 +0000biberu(~biberu@user/biberu)
2022-10-12 20:18:27 +0000zerozzz
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2022-10-12 20:33:48 +0000 <dmj`> is there a good / elegant functional pearl abstraction for pretty printers? Looking for something as elegant as the Hutton paper's 'type Parser a = String -> [(a,String)]'
2022-10-12 20:34:23 +0000wonko(~wjc@2a0e:1c80:2:0:45:15:19:130)
2022-10-12 20:36:36 +0000 <ski> hm, i recall reading "A prettier printer" by Philip Wadler in 1997-04,1998-03 at <https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/language-design.html#prettier>, years ago
2022-10-12 20:37:08 +0000 <ski> <https://wiki.haskell.org/Research_papers/Functional_pearls> has two pretty printing pearls, it seems
2022-10-12 20:39:22 +0000caryhartline(~caryhartl@2600:1700:2d0:8d30:c527:6c1:a00c:e1d4)
2022-10-12 20:41:32 +0000 <ski> (also find e.g. "Functional Pearl: Replaying the stack for parsing and pretty printing" by Mathieu Boespflug at <https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~mboes/papers/cassette.pdf>, "The Final Pretty Printer" David Darais at <https://david.darais.com/assets/papers/final-pretty-printer/fpp.pdf>, "Linear, Online, Functional Pretty Printing" by S. Doaitse Swierstra in 2004-08-24 at
2022-10-12 20:41:37 +0000 <ski> <https://www.cs.uu.nl/research/techreps/repo/CS-2004/2004-025a.pdf>, "FUNCTIONAL PEARL Pretty Printing with Lazy Dequeues" at <https://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/pubs/2001/1813/content.pdf>)
2022-10-12 20:41:56 +0000Everything(~Everythin@37.115.210.35) (Quit: leaving)
2022-10-12 20:42:18 +0000 <ski> (i also recall reading one paper which did pretty-printing with attribute grammar techniques (lazy encoding, iirc), to make multiple passes .. can't recall author or title, though)
2022-10-12 20:42:48 +0000 <dmj`> I'll try the Swiestra one first, thank you ski.
2022-10-12 20:46:42 +0000 <EvanR> the beginning of wadler's paper defines a set of operations on a type Doc yet to be defined at that point. Without backpack, is there a way to express this directly in haskell
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2022-10-12 20:47:10 +0000 <EvanR> type classes add a certain amount of noise, but might work
2022-10-12 20:48:09 +0000wolfshappen(~waff@irc.furworks.de) (Quit: later)
2022-10-12 20:49:33 +0000 <EvanR> like, an abstract data type and its operations, allowing multiple concrete implementations
2022-10-12 20:49:57 +0000 <EvanR> reflection?
2022-10-12 20:51:32 +0000 <EvanR> (dangit I basically answered my own question, "backpack")
2022-10-12 20:59:28 +0000 <ski> EvanR : another option is to define a `data' type with fields, possibly also using existentials
2022-10-12 20:59:46 +0000 <ski> (i'm talking about the ADT (Abstract Data Type) use of existentials, not the OO one)
2022-10-12 20:59:48 +0000k``(~user@152.1.137.158) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 21:00:50 +0000 <ski> data QueueImpl q a = QI { empty :: q,enqueue :: a -> q -> q,dequeue :: q -> Maybe (q,a) }
2022-10-12 21:01:09 +0000 <ski> data QueueOps a = forall q. QO (QueueImpl q a)
2022-10-12 21:01:43 +0000 <ski> (`q' here, not `QueueImpl' or `QueueOps', would correspond to the abstract data type, btw)
2022-10-12 21:02:17 +0000elbear(~lucian@188.24.138.239)
2022-10-12 21:02:28 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.222) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 21:03:32 +0000 <ski> basically, `QueueImpl q a' behaves like a module, where `q' and `a' are transparent, while for `QueueOps a', `q' is opaque/hidden/abstract/forgotten/encapsulated/skolem
2022-10-12 21:04:53 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-12 21:05:53 +0000 <ski> to use it, you'd open up the operations, and then use them directly on `q's. in the OO view, though, you'd rather use something like `data QueueObj a = forall q. QObj { state :: q,methods :: QueueImpl q a }', defining wrappers around the operations/methods that rewrap in `QObj' each time they want to return an object
2022-10-12 21:06:43 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2022-10-12 21:09:06 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 21:09:40 +0000 <dminuoso> Is there a simple primitive in `base` or `container` that would let me `lookup` and remove at the same time comfortably and efficiently for small lists/data sets (5-10)
2022-10-12 21:10:03 +0000 <dminuoso> Using a Set with alterF seems a bit much
2022-10-12 21:10:22 +0000 <ski> (of course, since there are no binary methods (like a `merge' one, needing to peek into implementation of two abstract data structures), we can refactor, "using closures" (partial application), to get `data QueueObj a = QObj { enqueue :: a -> QueueObj a,dequeue :: Maybe (QueueObj a,a) }' and `newEmpty :: QueueOps a -> QueueObj a', distributing the existential inwards (forgetting that we were returning an
2022-10-12 21:10:28 +0000 <ski> object using the same state type))
2022-10-12 21:14:16 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@104-55-37-220.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-10-12 21:19:54 +0000Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier)
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2022-10-12 21:24:18 +0000 <ski> can't think of anything better than `break', or `findIndex'/`elemIndex' with `splitAt'
2022-10-12 21:24:25 +0000Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-10-12 21:24:33 +0000 <ski> (which isn't really "at the same time")
2022-10-12 21:25:03 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
2022-10-12 21:25:27 +0000 <dminuoso> So handwritten it is? https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/f9a82bd74e4f568c08ff499d8a53e124
2022-10-12 21:25:48 +0000 <dminuoso> (For reasons beyond me, that implementation reverses the list when the located element is at the end)
2022-10-12 21:27:47 +0000 <dminuoso> Oh, nevermind I see why now.
2022-10-12 21:28:03 +0000 <ski> @hoogle (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe (a,[a])
2022-10-12 21:28:04 +0000 <lambdabot> Text.XML.HXT.Arrow.Pickle.Xml findElem :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe (a, [a])
2022-10-12 21:28:04 +0000 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent.SupervisorInternal pickFromSaveStack :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe (a, [a])
2022-10-12 21:28:26 +0000 <dminuoso> But I can actually live with the list being somewhat reordered.
2022-10-12 21:28:28 +0000jargon(~jargon@184.101.208.112)
2022-10-12 21:29:07 +0000 <dminuoso> I dont have any benefit with the dlist here, do I?
2022-10-12 21:29:39 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-10-12 21:30:19 +0000 <ski> .. i don't think so ?
2022-10-12 21:30:37 +0000 <ski> you're not using `dlistSnoc' or `dlistAppend'
2022-10-12 21:30:57 +0000 <ski> (also, does the wrapper base really help ?)
2022-10-12 21:31:38 +0000 <dminuoso> What do you mean by wrapper base?
2022-10-12 21:31:51 +0000 <ski> lookupDel _key [] = Nothing
2022-10-12 21:31:59 +0000 <dminuoso> Ah yes that is redundant
2022-10-12 21:32:10 +0000 <dminuoso> It's just some leftover from starting with a plain lookup
2022-10-12 21:32:35 +0000 <ski> .. maybe you'll avoid some small allocation of `emptyDList'. or some other cost of using the nested function
2022-10-12 21:32:43 +0000 <ski> i suspect it wouldn't be a big deal
2022-10-12 21:33:20 +0000 <ski> anyway, the "obvious" solution is the direct style, using `fmap'/`(<$>)' on `Maybe' over the recursive call
2022-10-12 21:33:36 +0000 <EvanR> splitAt is efficient due to some kind of update frame shenanigan
2022-10-12 21:34:09 +0000 <ski> but that suffers from the "left-associated `(>>=)'" kind of problem .. i might try using CPS for the worker in `lookupDel'
2022-10-12 21:34:20 +0000 <ski> EvanR : hm ?
2022-10-12 21:34:33 +0000 <dminuoso> ski: I think the handwritten version is just easier to predict mmm.
2022-10-12 21:35:05 +0000 <ski> try the CPS ?
2022-10-12 21:35:58 +0000 <dminuoso> Ah, I see you mean instead of the Maybe on the top signature?
2022-10-12 21:36:07 +0000 <dminuoso> Yeah, I was going to do that anyway
2022-10-12 21:38:27 +0000perrierjouet(~perrier-j@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.7)
2022-10-12 21:38:37 +0000 <ski> i mean using `go :: [(k,v)] -> o -> (v -> [(k,v)] -> o) -> o'
2022-10-12 21:39:14 +0000jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2022-10-12 21:39:15 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-10-12 21:39:19 +0000 <ski> (well, `forall o.', but it's implicit (`v' doesn't matter))
2022-10-12 21:40:55 +0000mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@193.185.223.3)
2022-10-12 21:41:41 +0000perrierjouet(~perrier-j@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca)
2022-10-12 21:42:56 +0000 <dminuoso> Im so deep into continuations already. :(
2022-10-12 21:43:19 +0000 <dminuoso> newtype ExStateT s e m a = ExStateT { runExStateT :: forall r. s -> (e -> m r) -> (s -> a -> m r) -> m r }
2022-10-12 21:43:59 +0000 <dminuoso> Is my outer monad, while Im working over an ad-hoc continuation, using continuation constructors to build up a tree...
2022-10-12 21:44:04 +0000 <dminuoso> And now this. :(
2022-10-12 21:44:23 +0000 <Franciman> dminuoso: does this perform decently?
2022-10-12 21:44:57 +0000 <dminuoso> Honestly I dont even know yet, its not finished enough to run proper benchmarks yet
2022-10-12 21:46:37 +0000 <[Leary]> :t \k -> first (fmap snd) . partition ((k ==) . fst)
2022-10-12 21:46:38 +0000 <lambdabot> Eq a => a -> [(a, b)] -> ([b], [(a, b)])
2022-10-12 21:47:15 +0000 <[Leary]> It's a bit weird to use partition for lookup, but it should work.
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2022-10-12 21:51:59 +0000shawwwn(sid6132@id-6132.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2022-10-12 21:52:26 +0000 <[Leary]> Though I guess it's lacking if you want early stopping, which you probably do.
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2022-10-12 22:02:16 +0000 <johnw> AndreasK: I wonder why it's ignore the env var then...
2022-10-12 22:03:05 +0000king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:c5:4fb1:a8c9:906f:c6e0)
2022-10-12 22:04:53 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2022-10-12 22:12:13 +0000talismanick(~talismani@c-73-41-86-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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2022-10-12 22:15:01 +0000 <dminuoso> johnw: Its as per documentation at least
2022-10-12 22:15:07 +0000 <dminuoso> https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/installing-packages.html#environment-variables
2022-10-12 22:16:13 +0000 <dminuoso> johnw: With v2 build, you can use the --builddir flag (or control via cabal.project): https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-project.html#cmdoption-builddir
2022-10-12 22:16:36 +0000 <dminuoso> Oh, cannot be specified via cabal.project apparently. Interesting
2022-10-12 22:17:07 +0000albet70(~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 22:21:16 +0000 <talismanick> So, I'm trying to use Polysemy with the Template Haskell shortcut syntax (`makeSem`) to generate boilerplate for me
2022-10-12 22:21:51 +0000 <talismanick> but no matter what GADT I pass to it (including examples from docs and tutorials), it errors out with "Parse error: module header, import declaration"
2022-10-12 22:23:14 +0000albet70(~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8)
2022-10-12 22:24:01 +0000 <ski> dminuoso : fwiw, with an explicit signature like that (specifying being polymorphic in `o'), you'll guard against inadvertent nqCPS
2022-10-12 22:24:14 +0000 <talismanick> building with GHC 9.2.4, polysemy v1.7.1.0 (latest)
2022-10-12 22:24:42 +0000 <ski> (unless nqCPS is what you're after, of course .. then you can't really do that .. unless if you parameterize on all the operations you intende to do nqCPS with)
2022-10-12 22:25:00 +0000 <dminuoso> What is nqCPS?
2022-10-12 22:25:25 +0000 <talismanick> non <something> continuation passing style?
2022-10-12 22:25:37 +0000 <ski> [Leary] : nice :)
2022-10-12 22:25:47 +0000 <ski> not-quite CPS
2022-10-12 22:25:48 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:657b:163b:3e09:9614)
2022-10-12 22:25:55 +0000 <ski> when not all your calls are tail calls
2022-10-12 22:26:09 +0000 <ski> sometimes you'll "do something extra" to the "final answer computed by a call"
2022-10-12 22:26:23 +0000AlexZenon_2(~alzenon@178.34.161.92)
2022-10-12 22:26:31 +0000 <dminuoso> Yeah, Im doing a lot of nqCPS already
2022-10-12 22:26:47 +0000 <ski> `Codensity f a = forall o. (a -> f o) -> f o' is a principled way to do this, you can only mess with the `f' part of the result, not the `o' part
2022-10-12 22:27:12 +0000 <dminuoso> Mmm interesting
2022-10-12 22:27:16 +0000 <ski> nqCPS is what delimited continuations are all about
2022-10-12 22:27:42 +0000 <dminuoso> Im looking at a paper Continuation-Based Partial Evaluation right now, that seems to touch that subject
2022-10-12 22:28:05 +0000dr_merijn(~dr_merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-10-12 22:28:06 +0000AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.161.92) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-10-12 22:28:13 +0000 <ski> ah, that's a fun topic :)
2022-10-12 22:28:29 +0000 <ski> found the papers by Olivier Danvy and Caroline Malmkjer, yet ?
2022-10-12 22:28:46 +0000 <dminuoso> I've never really understood what delimited continuations were about, I guess its time now
2022-10-12 22:28:47 +0000 <ski> (those were how i was introduced to partial evaluation)
2022-10-12 22:30:36 +0000mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@193.185.223.3) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 22:31:55 +0000 <ski> iirc, one of the MetaML examples involved staging a regex (or similar) pattern-matcher, so it offline computed an matcher, before in the later stage being fed inputs to match on (cf. "run-time compilation")
2022-10-12 22:32:30 +0000 <ski> anyway, that example was written in explicit CPS (for success and failure to match) .. except when it was staged, it became nqCPS !
2022-10-12 22:32:40 +0000libertyprime(~libertypr@118-92-78-165.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
2022-10-12 22:32:40 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
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2022-10-12 22:33:19 +0000 <ski> now, MetaML also has `shift' & `reset', so i translated the example back to direct style, inserting a few judicious calls to those two control operations
2022-10-12 22:34:19 +0000ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2022-10-12 22:35:46 +0000libertyprime(~libertypr@118-92-78-165.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 22:36:41 +0000 <dminuoso> ski: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/3b1e7a2f5eab7055e7438f8dd5da7f1f
2022-10-12 22:36:48 +0000 <dminuoso> So this is the code as it is right now
2022-10-12 22:37:23 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 22:37:36 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-10-12 22:39:19 +0000AlexZenon_2AlexZenon
2022-10-12 22:39:39 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 22:40:30 +0000 <AlexNoo> 1778
2022-10-12 22:41:00 +0000 <shapr> good year, that
2022-10-12 22:41:08 +0000 <shapr> hi AlexNoo, how's code?
2022-10-12 22:42:23 +0000 <ystael> Is there a way to make stack _not_ destroy .stack-work/dist when it dies with a build failure?
2022-10-12 22:42:42 +0000 <AlexNoo> hi AlexNoo, how's code?
2022-10-12 22:42:46 +0000 <ystael> I want to examine the battered corpse
2022-10-12 22:42:52 +0000 <AlexNoo> got it wrong
2022-10-12 22:43:46 +0000 <ski> dminuoso : oh, you're still doing an accumulator
2022-10-12 22:43:47 +0000 <shapr> gutetag AlexNoo, wie gehts?
2022-10-12 22:43:59 +0000 <shapr> bah, I'm starting German lessons in two weeks :-|
2022-10-12 22:44:45 +0000 <ski> (also, i was thinking of doing the CPS internally, but not on the outer interface. but i guess you could have it there .. or maybe you could do some `build'-like fusion)
2022-10-12 22:45:27 +0000 <dminuoso> ski: Yeah its a bit of impedence mismatching. :(
2022-10-12 22:45:30 +0000 <AlexNoo> auf keine Weise
2022-10-12 22:46:09 +0000 <dminuoso> Not much of a choice, since Im not just comparing two lists. Im sort of merging two lists on an element-by-element basis, erroring out of any side has extras
2022-10-12 22:46:13 +0000 <ski> doing it without accumulator, in the CPS, should be easy
2022-10-12 22:46:25 +0000c209e6dc-4d76-47(~aditya@2601:249:4300:1296:195:dac6:592c:a55a)
2022-10-12 22:46:31 +0000 <ski> well, you do need to pass `just' as argument
2022-10-12 22:46:39 +0000 <ski> (effectively that becomes your accumulator, instead)
2022-10-12 22:47:18 +0000 <ski> (you could think of `just' as becoming a difference list, if you want to)
2022-10-12 22:47:54 +0000raehik1(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 22:48:03 +0000 <dminuoso> Yeah the perspective has crossed my mind. In a difference place, Im using continuations to construct a nested type, as to avoid stack space for things like `(foo :>) <$> buildInner`
2022-10-12 22:48:08 +0000skitwitches at the redundant bracket pair
2022-10-12 22:48:33 +0000 <ski> with `buildInner' being of type `Maybe Whatever' ?
2022-10-12 22:48:56 +0000 <dminuoso> Something along these lines originally
2022-10-12 22:49:26 +0000 <ski> yea, so you want to avoid percolating up your `Nothing' exception, step-by-step, instead directly jumping to the handler
2022-10-12 22:49:28 +0000 <dminuoso> Now its just `decodeAttr__ attrLen subtree (c . (asNam next :>))`
2022-10-12 22:49:37 +0000 <dminuoso> Indeed
2022-10-12 22:49:47 +0000 <ski> which is what the CPS does, since it allows the `nothing' to be a semi-tail call
2022-10-12 22:50:11 +0000 <ski> this is what the Shivers' paper i mentioned the other day is all about, except that's about doing it in direct style, rather than explicit CPS
2022-10-12 22:50:14 +0000 <dminuoso> I think Ill get some rest, I cant focus to imagine how to put your suggestion in place.
2022-10-12 22:50:59 +0000 <dminuoso> What I like about the continuation construction by the way, is that I can just suspend it.
2022-10-12 22:51:18 +0000 <ski> yea, you can easily do coroutiney stuff with it
2022-10-12 22:51:28 +0000 <shapr> AlexNoo: Are you writing cool Haskell code?
2022-10-12 22:51:30 +0000 <ski> there's a Claessen paper, "A Poor Man's Concurrency Monad"
2022-10-12 22:51:57 +0000 <dminuoso> Which is really helpful. Im decoding a sort of encoded algebra of types, and there's this notion of "split attributes", where attributes are encoded across other attributes, so at some point I must suspend the layers I have constructed so far, build the outer attributes, splice together, and then resume.
2022-10-12 22:52:10 +0000Midjak(~Midjak@82.66.147.146) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2022-10-12 22:52:28 +0000 <ski> i also used a similar idea, when i implemented `zipWith'/`zip' using two `foldr' calls on the lists, no other recursion or matching/deconstruction (explicit or indirect) of the lists
2022-10-12 22:52:32 +0000 <dminuoso> What is really amazing how simple it: | DecodedNeedsSpliceAll (IntTree ASpec) BS.ByteString (Attr -> Attr)
2022-10-12 22:53:03 +0000 <ski> yea, that does sound like a coroutiney situation
2022-10-12 22:53:07 +0000 <dminuoso> Yup
2022-10-12 22:53:40 +0000 <AlexNoo> shapr: I do not know this language. * gloomy*
2022-10-12 22:53:49 +0000 <Axman6> o/
2022-10-12 22:54:04 +0000 <ski> (i'm reminded the declarative debugger for Mercury allowed a similar thing, to defer one question about whether an intermediate function call result was intended, to possibly try looking for other questions, before looping back to the original one)
2022-10-12 22:54:05 +0000 <shapr> AlexNoo: want to learn? I can suggest some starter things if you want?
2022-10-12 22:54:37 +0000 <dminuoso> At any rate, I really have to get some sleep. o/
2022-10-12 22:54:46 +0000 <dminuoso> Thanks for your insights, ski
2022-10-12 22:54:56 +0000 <ski> yw :)
2022-10-12 22:55:00 +0000 <ski> good night and pleasant dreams
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2022-10-12 22:55:22 +0000 <Axman6> AlexNoo: There was a time when none of us knew this language
2022-10-12 22:55:49 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a811112d37158fd9527.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 22:55:55 +0000 <Axman6> (that time was 1990)
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2022-10-12 22:56:35 +0000Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 22:56:53 +0000 <AlexNoo> shapr: no. I would like to learn C, then C++, and only then... be interested in other languages. and I don't know English either. :-(
2022-10-12 22:58:32 +0000 <AlexNoo> 1775
2022-10-12 22:59:04 +0000 <Axman6> are we counting down to something?
2022-10-12 22:59:09 +0000 <AlexNoo> well, again, I drove the rating into the wrong tab.
2022-10-12 22:59:19 +0000Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28)
2022-10-12 22:59:35 +0000Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 22:59:37 +0000 <ski> do you know any other languages ?
2022-10-12 22:59:44 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-34.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-10-12 22:59:59 +0000Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28)
2022-10-12 23:00:11 +0000 <AlexNoo> native only.
2022-10-12 23:00:31 +0000 <Axman6> native as in German or native as in assembly?
2022-10-12 23:00:53 +0000pavonia_(~user@user/siracusa)
2022-10-12 23:01:28 +0000 <AlexNoo> native, as in Russia, or the Soviet Union.
2022-10-12 23:02:03 +0000 <AlexNoo> and in German I only know "hands up".
2022-10-12 23:02:04 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-10-12 23:02:11 +0000pavonia_pavonia
2022-10-12 23:04:00 +0000 <talismanick> nvm, I forgot to enable TemplateHaskell
2022-10-12 23:04:03 +0000td_(~td@94.134.91.145) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 23:05:23 +0000td_(~td@83.135.9.60)
2022-10-12 23:05:33 +0000 <ski> AlexNoo : ah, sorry. i meant any other proramming languages ?
2022-10-12 23:06:25 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
2022-10-12 23:06:37 +0000 <talismanick> AlexNoo: zachem schitaesh?
2022-10-12 23:06:59 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 23:08:14 +0000 <AlexNoo> only Python, partially. not completely.
2022-10-12 23:08:59 +0000 <ski> добрый вечер/ночь
2022-10-12 23:09:40 +0000 <AlexNoo> добрый.
2022-10-12 23:10:03 +0000 <dolio> David Turner knew Haskell in 1990.
2022-10-12 23:10:39 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-12 23:12:24 +0000 <AlexNoo> But I'm already sleeping. good night.
2022-10-12 23:12:33 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
2022-10-12 23:12:39 +0000skiwaves
2022-10-12 23:12:49 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-12 23:13:05 +0000 <ski> shapr : möchtest Du mit deutsche Leute arbeiteteteten ?
2022-10-12 23:15:30 +0000 <yushyin> i'm not sure if this is inflected properly
2022-10-12 23:16:54 +0000 <EvanR> :t splitAt
2022-10-12 23:16:54 +0000EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-12 23:16:55 +0000 <lambdabot> Int -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
2022-10-12 23:17:13 +0000EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
2022-10-12 23:17:15 +0000 <EvanR> :t splitAt
2022-10-12 23:17:16 +0000 <lambdabot> Int -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
2022-10-12 23:17:23 +0000 <EvanR> @src splitAt
2022-10-12 23:17:23 +0000 <lambdabot> splitAt n xs = (take n xs, drop n xs)
2022-10-12 23:17:41 +0000nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-10-12 23:18:12 +0000 <EvanR> :t space
2022-10-12 23:18:12 +0000 <lambdabot> Doc
2022-10-12 23:18:14 +0000 <EvanR> :t span
2022-10-12 23:18:16 +0000 <lambdabot> (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
2022-10-12 23:18:19 +0000 <EvanR> @src span
2022-10-12 23:18:19 +0000 <lambdabot> span _ xs@[] = (xs, xs)
2022-10-12 23:18:19 +0000 <lambdabot> span p xs@(x:xs') | p x = let (ys,zs) = span p xs' in (x:ys,zs)
2022-10-12 23:18:19 +0000 <lambdabot> | otherwise = ([],xs)
2022-10-12 23:18:28 +0000 <EvanR> I was thinking of break / span not splitAt
2022-10-12 23:22:42 +0000 <shapr> ski: jag lära mig tysk för jobbet, ja
2022-10-12 23:22:52 +0000 <EvanR> hopefully the same magic applies to splitAt though
2022-10-12 23:23:01 +0000nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 23:23:53 +0000skistudsar upp och ner på stolen
2022-10-12 23:24:13 +0000 <ski> EvanR : magic as in `RULE's ?
2022-10-12 23:24:58 +0000 <shapr> ski: hah, I'm excited about learning German for a Haskell job, yes!
2022-10-12 23:25:40 +0000 <EvanR> not rules, something about stg
2022-10-12 23:26:44 +0000 <ski> hm, 'd be curious to learn what it was about / how it works
2022-10-12 23:26:44 +0000 <Axman6> shapr: congrats - can you say where the job is?
2022-10-12 23:26:58 +0000noctux(~noctux@user/noctux) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-10-12 23:27:04 +0000 <shapr> Axman6: yeah, I'm working for Least Authority on the PrivateStorage team
2022-10-12 23:28:16 +0000noctux(~noctux@user/noctux)
2022-10-12 23:28:34 +0000 <Axman6> "formerly S4" I feel like they could have also called it PS3 =)
2022-10-12 23:29:04 +0000 <shapr> :-)
2022-10-12 23:29:23 +0000 <shapr> it's Python, Haskell, and Nix
2022-10-12 23:30:42 +0000 <Axman6> looks like a cool product, and one I've wanted for a while
2022-10-12 23:31:16 +0000 <EvanR> the problem setup is: you want to lazily process the first part of a list one way, then after the split or break, process it another way. So you probably just do break or splitAt to get two "new" lists, and just use them as input to a lazy algorithm. Eventually when something starts consuming the first part, it's not obvious that it can be dropped soon, because there was that 2nd component based on the whole list, "not needed yet"
2022-10-12 23:32:16 +0000rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 23:32:58 +0000 <EvanR> but apparently it can be collected soon, i.e. the dropping is evaluating along with the taking, sometimes, for some reason
2022-10-12 23:33:10 +0000 <EvanR> "update frames"
2022-10-12 23:33:16 +0000 <Axman6> shapr: HMMMMMMM, I tick a lot of the boxes for "Helpful skills and attributes for this role include" on https://leastauthority.com/blog/jobs/senior-software-developer-privatestorage/
2022-10-12 23:34:10 +0000 <shapr> Axman6: you could apply
2022-10-12 23:34:27 +0000 <shapr> I just started, I like it so far.
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2022-10-12 23:49:38 +0000 <talismanick> Does "runtime strictness analysis" make sense terminologically, by analogy with a JIT versus a compiler?
2022-10-12 23:50:12 +0000 <talismanick> Is there a way to annotate data types with "potentially make strict at runtime", like a weaker bang pattern?
2022-10-12 23:51:08 +0000 <talismanick> Like, opportunistically make strict if a) no results change and b) guaranteed performance increase
2022-10-12 23:51:36 +0000 <EvanR> if a JIT runs your code slow for a while before deciding to compile it and replace it for future calls, is it actually "just in time" or "somewhat late"
2022-10-12 23:52:01 +0000 <EvanR> because if you do that with strictness your code starts acting differently
2022-10-12 23:52:57 +0000 <talismanick> EvanR: well, don't space leaks usually come from intermediate data structures?
2022-10-12 23:53:17 +0000 <L29Ah> talismanick: the compiler is too dumb to predict if the results would change, and that in fact sounds like the halting problem
2022-10-12 23:53:29 +0000Sciencentistguy7(~sciencent@hacksoc/ordinary-member)
2022-10-12 23:53:39 +0000 <EvanR> yeah in some cases adding strictness can make it use less intermediate data. In other cases it makes the code fail to terminate when it otherwise would
2022-10-12 23:53:44 +0000 <L29Ah> performance increase depends a lot on if/when exactly the data would be demanded
2022-10-12 23:54:21 +0000L29Ahjust uses -XStrict and adds ~'s when needed
2022-10-12 23:54:30 +0000 <davean> "don't space leaks usually come from intermediate data structures?" No!
2022-10-12 23:54:35 +0000 <talismanick> L29Ah: that's why I asked if it could be done at runtime
2022-10-12 23:54:43 +0000 <talismanick> davean: oh?
2022-10-12 23:54:47 +0000 <EvanR> yeah I dunno about usually, but that's sometimes a thing
2022-10-12 23:55:24 +0000 <EvanR> strict fields for an Int that is computed from a large thunk
2022-10-12 23:55:42 +0000 <EvanR> (that would definitely terminate)
2022-10-12 23:55:44 +0000Sciencentistguy(~sciencent@hacksoc/ordinary-member) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-12 23:55:44 +0000Sciencentistguy7Sciencentistguy
2022-10-12 23:55:57 +0000 <davean> Space leaks come from something being depended on. The only way an intermediate datastructure causes one is exactly the same way as a pair where you only need one of the two values leaks the unneeded one's space
2022-10-12 23:56:17 +0000loras(~loras@c-73-139-125-125.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
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2022-10-12 23:56:31 +0000 <L29Ah> my last space leak was due to the pinned memory fragmentation that could have been fixed either by a smarter allocator or an ability to temporarily pin any chunk of memory in order to push it down the syscall
2022-10-12 23:56:46 +0000 <davean> All your space leaks come from exactly the same place (unless you look at forgien data stuff)
2022-10-12 23:57:35 +0000 <EvanR> so what you're saying is, the space leak is not caused by intermediate data. But by intermediate data outstaying its welcome
2022-10-12 23:57:59 +0000 <EvanR> because if you evaluated the results earlier the intermediate data still exists but is not a problem
2022-10-12 23:58:36 +0000 <davean> non-strictness is control flow