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2022/10/08

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2022-10-08 02:51:49 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
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2022-10-08 03:01:07 +0200pragma-(~chaos@user/pragmatic-chaos)
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2022-10-08 03:06:44 +0200wroathe_(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
2022-10-08 03:08:36 +0200 <aviladev[m]> Shouldn't these be equivalent? They all compile, however, only **1** and **2** work. When using **3** or **4**, `Network.Socket.accept` throws a runtime exception: `*** Exception: Network.Socket.accept: invalid argument (Invalid argument)`... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/dbc490c56015c1a5ab509bc265d0a1fe9519…>)
2022-10-08 03:08:37 +0200harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:c180:a570:3828:d8:e523:3f67)
2022-10-08 03:09:30 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-08 03:11:29 +0200 <pragma-> smh, if Matrix used a url-shortener or something...
2022-10-08 03:12:11 +0200frost(~frost@user/frost)
2022-10-08 03:17:19 +0200zns(~zns@user/zns) (Quit: zzz)
2022-10-08 03:19:14 +0200 <aviladev[m]> > <@aviladev:matrix.org> Shouldn't these be equivalent? They all compile, however, only **1** and **2** work. When using **3** or **4**, `Network.Socket.accept` throws a runtime exception: `*** Exception: Network.Socket.accept: invalid argument (Invalid argument)`... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/3eaae4cb04cc1a283f6fea7d924fc34123ac…>)
2022-10-08 03:19:16 +0200 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘<@’
2022-10-08 03:20:43 +0200 <aviladev[m]> * This is what I believe should be happening when doing ```(`S.listen` 1024) >> return```:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/7d54b2fc391f70efecd9aa3d8eda88ffee85…>)
2022-10-08 03:22:29 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-08 03:24:03 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-10-08 03:27:17 +0200zns(~zns@user/zns)
2022-10-08 03:27:29 +0200 <aviladev[m]> * This is what I expect to be happening when doing ``(`S.listen` 1024) >> return``:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/32b724711a887f1a507d52eb0f93dc791be4…>)
2022-10-08 03:32:48 +0200 <aviladev[m]> * Shouldn't these be equivalent? They all compile, however, only **1** and **2** work. When using **3** or **4**, `Network.Socket.accept` throws a runtime exception: `*** Exception: Network.Socket.accept: invalid argument (Invalid argument)`... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/16ba7029a056ca4e7892f2f7f77dfae36046…>)
2022-10-08 03:33:18 +0200zns(~zns@user/zns) (Quit: zzz)
2022-10-08 03:34:02 +0200 <aviladev[m]> * This is what I expect to be happening when doing ``(`S.listen` 1024) >> return``:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/60eb5638b57e8e9927ff1e4c459c5850b931…>)
2022-10-08 03:34:47 +0200rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2022-10-08 03:40:07 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by wroathe_)))
2022-10-08 03:40:08 +0200 <ski> aviladev[m] : yea, `foo >> bar' is `\x -> bar x', not `\x -> foo x >> bar x' (being `liftA2 (>>) foo bar')
2022-10-08 03:40:11 +0200wroathe_wroathe
2022-10-08 03:40:26 +0200ubert1(~Thunderbi@178.165.197.164.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
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2022-10-08 03:40:54 +0200ubert1ubert
2022-10-08 03:41:39 +0200 <ski> aviladev[m] : also, just so you know, all your edits appear as separate new messages here
2022-10-08 03:42:32 +0200zns(~zns@user/zns) (Quit: zzz)
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2022-10-08 03:45:02 +0200 <ski> but yea, you could say your mistake between 2 and 3 was to mistake `liftA2 (>>)' for `(>>)'
2022-10-08 03:46:32 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-08 03:46:44 +0200 <ski> .. so, what's happening differently in 3 and 4 is that your `S.listen s 1024' action is never executed
2022-10-08 03:47:06 +0200rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-08 03:48:00 +0200eN0n23eE4(eN0n23eE4@047-024-217-062.res.spectrum.com)
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2022-10-08 04:25:18 +0200 <aviladev[m]> <ski> "aviladev : also, just so you..." <- I'm sorry, didn't know that.
2022-10-08 04:25:39 +0200 <aviladev[m]> <ski> "aviladev : yea, `foo >> bar' is..." <- If `foo :: r -> a` and `bar :: r -> b`, shouldn't `foo >> bar` be `\x -> (\_ -> bar) (foo x) x`?
2022-10-08 04:25:39 +0200 <aviladev[m]> Are you saying that in this case, `foo x` will never run? Is this because its result is being ignored?
2022-10-08 04:26:13 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-08 04:27:41 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-10-08 04:28:50 +0200 <ski> aviladev[m] : yes, `\x -> (\_ -> bar) (foo x) x' is `\x -> bar x' (like i said). and yes, in this case, `foo x' is never evaluated (much less executed)
2022-10-08 04:29:56 +0200 <aviladev[m]> ski: That's because of lazy evaluation?
2022-10-08 04:30:22 +0200 <ski> (also, when you did that reply, it looks like ‟<aviladev[m]> <ski> "aviladev : also, just so you..." <- I'm sorry, didn't know that.”, on this end)
2022-10-08 04:30:34 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
2022-10-08 04:30:37 +0200 <ski> it's because of non-strict evaluation
2022-10-08 04:31:03 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:213:7200:cc36:a556:b1e8:b340) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-08 04:31:15 +0200rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-08 04:31:42 +0200califax_(~califax@user/califx)
2022-10-08 04:32:08 +0200 <aviladev[m]> ski: I'll just mention then.
2022-10-08 04:32:11 +0200 <ski> (Haskell doesn't have lazy evaluation. laziness is a particular way in which non-strictness may be implemented. strict vs. non-strict is about the "what" (what answer/result will you get ?), while by-value, by-name, by-need (aka lazy) is about the "how" (what are the steps needed to compute an answer ?))
2022-10-08 04:33:34 +0200 <ski> the reply isn't *that* annoying (though sure can look a bit weird), i guess. the edit message, otoh, can be a bit spammy
2022-10-08 04:33:50 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2022-10-08 04:33:50 +0200califax_califax
2022-10-08 04:34:48 +0200 <ski> @where lazy
2022-10-08 04:34:49 +0200 <lambdabot> "Lazy Evaluation of Haskell" by monochrom at <http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/lazy.xhtml>; "The Incomplete Guide to Lazy Evaluation (in Haskell)" by apfelmus in 2015-03-07 at <https://apfelmus.
2022-10-08 04:34:49 +0200 <lambdabot> nfshost.com/articles/lazy-eval.html>; "Laziness, strictness, guarded recursion" by bitemyapp at <https://github.com/bitemyapp/learnhaskell/blob/master/specific_topics.md#user-content-laziness-
2022-10-08 04:34:49 +0200 <lambdabot> strictness-guarded-recursion>
2022-10-08 04:35:12 +0200 <ski> might be interesting, to learn about laziness
2022-10-08 04:35:56 +0200bontaq(~user@ool-45779fe5.dyn.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-10-08 04:36:25 +0200 <ski> GHC does laziness. afaik, every Haskell implementation has. but some may also have experimented somewhat with other strategies (like parallel optimistic evaluation, evaluating something on another core, that you think might be needed soon, in case you have a core to spare)
2022-10-08 04:36:27 +0200rockystone(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-08 04:37:14 +0200 <ski> (laziness also implies important things for space usage, so in practice one should learn about it. just saying that the language itself doesn't actually specify it)
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2022-10-08 04:48:46 +0200off^(~off@c-76-17-6-165.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2022-10-08 04:52:35 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-08 04:53:57 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
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2022-10-08 05:03:35 +0200td_(~td@94.134.91.128)
2022-10-08 05:10:29 +0200 <aviladev[m]> @ski ok, that's a lot of information, I'll try to read about that when I have more time, although I don't think I'll understand too much of it 😅.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/fb652df9535397108d30855e1ab11d6a28ab…>)
2022-10-08 05:10:29 +0200 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wiki src ask
2022-10-08 05:12:20 +0200 <ski> heh, i guess i should also say that there's no need to adorn nicknames with sigils (like `@') (this is not an IRC custom), when referring to, or responding to, them. simply mention the nickname. if you want to respond, e.g. first list the nickname, then a comma or colon say, and the bulk of the message
2022-10-08 05:13:04 +0200 <ski> (most IRC clients will highlight/alert the user when their nickname is mentioned, *first* in a message (iow, *not* with `@' prefixing it). not as many will do it, if it's mentioned later in the message)
2022-10-08 05:13:31 +0200 <ski> (besides, `@' already means something (else), on IRC (specifically, it means channel operator))
2022-10-08 05:15:32 +0200potash(~foghorn@user/foghorn) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-10-08 05:15:57 +0200 <ski> foo >>= runReaderT (ReaderT bar >> ReaderT baz >> ReaderT return) -- this would work, i think
2022-10-08 05:16:11 +0200potash(~foghorn@user/foghorn)
2022-10-08 05:17:10 +0200 <ski> or (obviously) : foo >>= liftA2 (>>) bar (liftA2 (>>) baz return)
2022-10-08 05:17:20 +0200eN0n23eE4(eN0n23eE4@047-024-217-062.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2022-10-08 05:17:42 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2022-10-08 05:20:04 +0200 <ski> ooc :
2022-10-08 05:20:06 +0200 <ski> @pl foo >>= \x -> bar x >> baz x >> return x
2022-10-08 05:20:06 +0200 <lambdabot> ap ((>>) . liftM2 (>>) bar baz) return =<< foo
2022-10-08 05:20:21 +0200 <ski> yea .. nope
2022-10-08 05:20:25 +0200 <ski> @pl foo >>= \x -> bar x >> (baz x >> return x)
2022-10-08 05:20:25 +0200 <lambdabot> liftM2 (>>) bar (liftM2 (>>) baz return) =<< foo
2022-10-08 05:20:39 +0200 <ski> (which is what i already said)
2022-10-08 05:22:44 +0200 <ski> (`@' is used in here to indicate commands to lambdabot, if that wasn't clear. `pl' is short for `pointless', a command for converting code to "pointless form", by removing "points" (meaning elements/values), iow removing explicitly named function inputs, typically converting to function composition, and other function combinators)
2022-10-08 05:23:06 +0200 <ski> @help pl
2022-10-08 05:23:07 +0200 <lambdabot> pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code.
2022-10-08 05:31:05 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-10-08 05:31:56 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
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2022-10-08 06:02:53 +0200 <aviladev[m]> ski nice, thank you! Both `runReaderT` and nesting `liftM2` worked.
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2022-10-08 06:11:51 +0200 <ski> np
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2022-10-08 13:41:06 +0200 <chomwitt> hi. i'm doing some elementary tutorial exercises. I added in my foo.hs the line : toPart recipient = "Dear" ++ recipient ++ ",\n" and trying to load it in my ghci with :l foo.hs i get Failed, no modules loaded with a red arror highigthing the '='
2022-10-08 13:47:17 +0200ft(~ft@p3e9bc57b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
2022-10-08 13:47:59 +0200 <[Leary]> chomwitt: The real error is probably before that line.
2022-10-08 13:48:53 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
2022-10-08 13:50:32 +0200chomwittchecking
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2022-10-08 13:54:12 +0200 <chomwitt> https://pastes.io/ryymtyujhb
2022-10-08 13:56:41 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-10-08 13:56:57 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2022-10-08 13:59:14 +0200 <[Leary]> @where paste
2022-10-08 13:59:14 +0200 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
2022-10-08 13:59:47 +0200 <[Leary]> Try that one. Your pastebin denies ad blockers, so I don't know how many would bother to look at it.
2022-10-08 13:59:47 +0200 <jackdk> chomwitt: line 9 should begin with the keyword `let`
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2022-10-08 14:25:22 +0200 <chomwitt> sorry for my paste bin.
2022-10-08 14:25:35 +0200 <chomwitt> jackdk, 'let' helped.
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2022-10-08 14:46:34 +0200 <chomwitt> finally my error (althougt not clearly stated in the book) was that 'toPart' is a new fuction that must not be indented.
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2022-10-08 16:18:03 +0200heinz9(~trace@user/trace)
2022-10-08 16:18:04 +0200 <heinz9> Are there use cases for having morphisms in programming?
2022-10-08 16:18:40 +0200titibandit(~titibandi@xdsl-89-0-65-2.nc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-08 16:18:52 +0200 <geekosaur> every function is a morphism, so pretty obviously yes
2022-10-08 16:20:52 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-10-08 16:20:55 +0200 <int-e> but of course you can program without worrying about morphisms
2022-10-08 16:22:02 +0200 <geekosaur> knowing about morphisms doesn't help you program, it's more the other direction: functions being morphisms helps you reason about programs
2022-10-08 16:23:00 +0200 <geekosaur> (or, more to the point in Haskell in particular, tells the compiler more about what it can do to optimize a program)
2022-10-08 16:23:04 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:213:7200:cc36:a556:b1e8:b340) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-10-08 16:24:10 +0200 <geekosaur> it can treat a program as a mathematical graph and manipulate it as such, and "knowing" that functions are morphisms helps guide those manipulations
2022-10-08 16:24:31 +0200 <ski> knowing that a function you want to program is intended to be a homomorphism (wrt some algebra) can help you derive an implementation for it
2022-10-08 16:25:33 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-08 16:28:09 +0200geekosaurisn't quite there yet…
2022-10-08 16:31:33 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a48695c1121120f860b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-10-08 16:32:54 +0200 <heinz9> are programming functions more as math morphisms or more as math functions?
2022-10-08 16:34:14 +0200 <geekosaur> not clear to me there's a difference: [07 17:43:14] <monochrom> In fact mathematicians use "name: type -> type" too because category theory started that notation.
2022-10-08 16:34:42 +0200 <geekosaur> granting that this is less helpful in a language without pure functions
2022-10-08 16:34:46 +0200gqplox(~textual@97e654ef.skybroadband.com) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-10-08 16:35:00 +0200 <dolio> I don't think category theory actually started that notation.
2022-10-08 16:35:17 +0200 <dolio> I forget the details, though.
2022-10-08 16:36:49 +0200 <ski> hm, istr seeing some historical notice in "Categories for the Working Mathematician" by Saunders MacLane, about that, talking about it coming from algebraic topologists, Hurewicz, or somesuch
2022-10-08 16:37:26 +0200 <ski> (and that the notation contributed to considering the notion, iirc)
2022-10-08 16:37:32 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2022-10-08 16:37:49 +0200zns(~zns@user/zns)
2022-10-08 16:37:51 +0200 <dolio> I think there's some mathoverflow question where people dug up the history of the notation.
2022-10-08 16:39:02 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-10-08 16:41:54 +0200 <geekosaur> https://mathoverflow.net/questions/194377/when-was-the-arrow-notation-for-functions-first-introduced
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2022-10-08 16:58:15 +0200 <heinz9> are there use cases vor math categories in haskell
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2022-10-08 17:18:59 +0200 <EvanR> heinz9, .oO( conal elliot compiling to categories, paper, videos )
2022-10-08 17:19:12 +0200 <EvanR> elliott*
2022-10-08 17:20:49 +0200 <L29Ah> how do i debug a "thread blocked indefinitely in an STM transaction"? is there a better tool than just tracing what's happening with my STM primitives?
2022-10-08 17:21:11 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2022-10-08 17:21:31 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.193.3.193)
2022-10-08 17:23:02 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::778c)
2022-10-08 17:23:55 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-10-08 17:24:51 +0200 <zebrag> "[applicative parsers are] amenable to static analysis" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26301543). Very enticing but, despite months of searching in that direction, I haven't found many convincing examples, if any.
2022-10-08 17:25:46 +0200 <EvanR> L29Ah, one retroactive suggestion is to not use primitives, but async tasks from the async library. Which can be used in STM
2022-10-08 17:26:52 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-10-08 17:36:46 +0200 <EvanR> zebrag, not sure what language the blog post is in...
2022-10-08 17:37:07 +0200 <EvanR> ocaml...
2022-10-08 17:43:10 +0200 <L29Ah> EvanR: then i'll have to write my own library for thread pools
2022-10-08 17:43:36 +0200 <EvanR> that does not follow
2022-10-08 17:44:11 +0200 <EvanR> also, are you sure you need thread pools. This is haskell
2022-10-08 17:44:30 +0200 <L29Ah> i am using a modified async-pool library and experiencing the aforementioned STM problem with it, using tasks from the async library instead would require me to rewrite the pool logic
2022-10-08 17:44:44 +0200 <L29Ah> i am sure that i run out of resources if i spawn everything at once
2022-10-08 17:46:02 +0200 <EvanR> so you want a throttler, which could be a higher level task
2022-10-08 17:46:51 +0200 <EvanR> jobs have to wait for their work by going through the throttler
2022-10-08 17:47:15 +0200 <EvanR> I have no idea nvm
2022-10-08 17:47:45 +0200 <EvanR> just that the threads themselves are usually not the scarce resource
2022-10-08 17:48:08 +0200 <L29Ah> yes, but each thread needs a fd and a big chunk of memory in my case
2022-10-08 17:48:54 +0200 <EvanR> if each thread's code acquires the fd and memory, and blocks for whatever reason, then they can still be spawned all at once
2022-10-08 17:49:07 +0200 <EvanR> but it requires something throttling access
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2022-10-08 18:04:12 +0200 <L29Ah> EvanR: so, a thread pool seems like the easiest thing to implement :)
2022-10-08 18:05:11 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:e519:421e:c827:31f)
2022-10-08 18:05:13 +0200 <EvanR> my mistake I thought this was going to some java like thing
2022-10-08 18:06:05 +0200 <EvanR> 8 chonky threads revved up waiting in an array because it would be too slow to spawn them on demand
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2022-10-08 21:34:03 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:5fc0:4b16:ca65:e4e0)
2022-10-08 21:35:23 +0200 <anthezium> hey, anyone have some experience with singleton-base? I've been using the promoted type families in Data.List.Singletons, and many work as expected, e.g. All, but I'm getting a not-completely-reduced-looking value for some of the set operations. for example, (where X, Y are Types):> :kind! (Data.List.Singletons.Delete X '[X, Y])
2022-10-08 21:35:28 +0200 <anthezium> (Data.List.Singletons.Delete X '[X, Y]) :: [*]
2022-10-08 21:35:30 +0200 <anthezium> = singletons-base-3.1.1-ff54512716cfd5117f89ad150dcfbc806e804d7c85ee41539016ae5b972dc513:Data.List.Singletons.Internal.Case_6989586621679765428 (Data.Eq.Singletons.==@#@$) X X '[Y] (X Data.Eq.Singletons.== X)
2022-10-08 21:36:58 +0200 <anthezium> *singletons-base, on hackage here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/singletons-base
2022-10-08 21:37:19 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.193.3.193) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-08 21:37:41 +0200 <geekosaur> matrix edits do confusing things on IRC
2022-10-08 21:38:16 +0200 <anthezium> "matrix edit"?
2022-10-08 21:38:33 +0200zns_(~zns@user/zns)
2022-10-08 21:38:35 +0200zns_(~zns@user/zns) (Client Quit)
2022-10-08 21:38:36 +0200 <darkling> Using the message-edit feature of matrix.
2022-10-08 21:39:13 +0200 <geekosaur> which that looked like
2022-10-08 21:39:33 +0200 <geekosaur> it was still a bit confusing
2022-10-08 21:39:46 +0200 <anthezium> TIL about matrix
2022-10-08 21:40:13 +0200 <anthezium> it is not a matrix edit, but I agree that it is confusing
2022-10-08 21:41:22 +0200 <anthezium> I read it as "Delete X '[X, Y] has kind [*], and type (Case_6989586621679765428 (Data.Eq.Singletons.==@#@$) X X '[Y] (X Data.Eq.Singletons.== X))"
2022-10-08 21:42:14 +0200 <geekosaur> I meant the line starting with *
2022-10-08 21:42:29 +0200 <anthezium> geekosaur: oh, sorry about that
2022-10-08 21:43:04 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-10-08 21:43:21 +0200 <geekosaur> the rest is confusing too, but typical for singletons 🙂
2022-10-08 21:43:35 +0200 <anthezium> If I just reimplement Delete instead of using the version promoted with TH from singletons-base, then it works fine
2022-10-08 21:44:30 +0200geekosaurknows very little about singletons, but what he does know makes him think that stuff should have stayed in idris 🙂
2022-10-08 21:44:40 +0200 <anthezium> I am wondering if the singletons-base version is either using some notion of equality that doesn't work for this purpose, or is asking for me to supply a notion of equality
2022-10-08 21:45:20 +0200 <geekosaur> also there are some limitations to :kind! that mean it doesn't always reduce type functions, iirc
2022-10-08 21:45:36 +0200 <anthezium> I did not know that, that is helpful
2022-10-08 21:46:26 +0200jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2022-10-08 21:46:47 +0200 <geekosaur> % :kind!! Int
2022-10-08 21:46:48 +0200 <yahb2> unknown command ':kind!!' ; use :? for help.
2022-10-08 21:47:06 +0200 <anthezium> % :kind! Int
2022-10-08 21:47:06 +0200 <yahb2> Int :: * ; = Int
2022-10-08 21:47:12 +0200 <geekosaur> mm, not in that version. supposedly `:kind!!` is in the works somewhere
2022-10-08 21:47:21 +0200 <geekosaur> but I don't see it in 9.2 or 9.4
2022-10-08 21:48:07 +0200 <geekosaur> % :show version
2022-10-08 21:48:07 +0200 <yahb2> syntax: ; :show [args | prog | editor | stop | imports | modules | bindings | ; linker | breaks | context | packages | paths | language | targets]
2022-10-08 21:48:17 +0200 <geekosaur> ah well
2022-10-08 21:51:23 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2022-10-08 21:51:56 +0200 <anthezium> I am on 9.4.2 and no :kind!! '[B]
2022-10-08 21:52:06 +0200 <anthezium> oops, disregard the '[B]
2022-10-08 21:53:25 +0200 <geekosaur> yeh, I checked the manual for that
2022-10-08 21:55:13 +0200fjmorazan(~quassel@user/fjmorazan) ()
2022-10-08 21:55:28 +0200 <anthezium> looks like the issue transcends :kind!
2022-10-08 21:55:40 +0200 <anthezium> I loaded this in ghci:
2022-10-08 21:55:42 +0200 <anthezium> type SingletonsExample = Data.List.Singletons.Delete A '[B, A]
2022-10-08 21:55:42 +0200 <anthezium> checkSingletonsExample :: (SingletonsExample ~ '[B]) => ()
2022-10-08 21:55:42 +0200 <anthezium> checkSingletonsExample = ()
2022-10-08 21:56:01 +0200 <anthezium> > :t checkSingletonsExample
2022-10-08 21:56:01 +0200 <anthezium> <interactive>:1:1: error:
2022-10-08 21:56:01 +0200 <anthezium> • Couldn't match type: singletons-base-3.1.1:Data.List.Singletons.Internal.Case_6989586621679765428
2022-10-08 21:56:03 +0200 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’
2022-10-08 21:56:04 +0200fjmorazan(~quassel@user/fjmorazan)
2022-10-08 21:56:04 +0200 <anthezium> (==@#@$) A B '[A] (A == B)
2022-10-08 21:56:07 +0200 <anthezium> with: '[B]
2022-10-08 21:56:09 +0200 <anthezium> arising from a use of ‘checkSingletonsExample’
2022-10-08 21:56:12 +0200 <anthezium> • In the expression: checkSingletonsExample
2022-10-08 21:56:52 +0200 <anthezium> my workaround (reimplementing it myself) works fine, just was curious if there was something obvious i was missing.
2022-10-08 21:57:46 +0200 <anthezium> is there a more popular way to do programming at the type level in Haskell, or am I pretty much trying to do things that will only be easy if Haskell gets dependent types?
2022-10-08 21:58:16 +0200 <anthezium> I have spent some time in the typeclasses with functional dependencies salt mines, couldn't even get this far
2022-10-08 21:59:39 +0200 <geekosaur> singletons is pretty much it until real dependent Haskell
2022-10-08 21:59:50 +0200 <anthezium> thanks, that is good to know
2022-10-08 22:02:33 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@cpe5c7d7db831c8-cm5c7d7db831c6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2022-10-08 22:03:01 +0200 <anthezium> I am sad that instance chains never got an implementation in ghc, it is a good fit for e.g. computing a transitive closure of a relation, some of the other things I have ended up doing in type families with like, primitive pure functional programming
2022-10-08 22:04:59 +0200 <anthezium> you can compute the transitive closure of a relation w/typeclasses in ghc, it is just weirder and less intuitive. and I haven't been able to figure out many other "simple programs" in ghc typeclasses
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2022-10-08 23:18:06 +0200 <zebrag> EvanR: yes, the comments are mostly Haskell, but the reference at the top is ocaml indeed. Seems I mostly used that page as illustration for "applicative parser / static analysis", as a "proof" stat some people are considering it, and that it seems nice, but I haven't found any example yet of what they are really talking about.
2022-10-08 23:18:21 +0200 <zebrag> so let's put a pin on it
2022-10-08 23:24:04 +0200 <zebrag> But it's the whole point of why using applicative parsers instead of full fledge monadic parsers.
2022-10-08 23:24:07 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:c5:4fb1:a8c9:906f:c6e0) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-10-08 23:24:22 +0200 <heinz9> Can AI become really dangerous and why?
2022-10-08 23:24:37 +0200 <geekosaur> nobody knows
2022-10-08 23:24:47 +0200 <geekosaur> and it's not really a question for this channel
2022-10-08 23:28:31 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@187.201.131.180)
2022-10-08 23:29:04 +0200 <heinz9> isnt ai not often programed with functional languages?
2022-10-08 23:30:00 +0200 <heinz9> if no one knows, then why is it said to be common sense, that ai will become very dangeroud
2022-10-08 23:30:31 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-10-08 23:31:01 +0200 <geekosaur> "common sense" is neither
2022-10-08 23:31:25 +0200 <heinz9> what is the common sense
2022-10-08 23:31:48 +0200Morrow[m](~morrowmma@2001:470:69fc:105::1d0)
2022-10-08 23:31:49 +0200 <geekosaur> and this is a question about AI in general, not about Haskell. perhaps you want #haskell-offtopic
2022-10-08 23:31:55 +0200 <geekosaur> you misunderstood my comment
2022-10-08 23:32:21 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-08 23:32:42 +0200 <geekosaur> people talk about "common sense" but my observation is that "common sense" either isn't common, or isn't sense, or often isn't either
2022-10-08 23:32:43 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@cpe5c7d7db831c8-cm5c7d7db831c6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2022-10-08 23:32:54 +0200 <geekosaur> so I don't put a lot of stock into it
2022-10-08 23:33:32 +0200 <anthezium> yeah, it requires shared context and reasoning which may or may not be present
2022-10-08 23:34:58 +0200 <zebrag> "ai", is it the chimpanzee, or the sloth?
2022-10-08 23:35:05 +0200Guest|60(~Guest|60@75.164.41.35)
2022-10-08 23:35:08 +0200phma_(~phma@2001:5b0:211f:4578:e340:1f30:e6ab:a541)
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2022-10-08 23:36:00 +0200 <geekosaur> my opinion is that AI is made by humans and will therefore reflect humans. this could well be bad in the long run considering how humans behave when in power, but we're nowhere near the point where that will be relevant
2022-10-08 23:36:32 +0200 <Guest|60> I just installed ghcup. When I run ghc-pkg check, it reports some missing items. Can I retrieve those through ghcup?
2022-10-08 23:37:29 +0200 <geekosaur> make sure you don't have another ghc lying around somewhere. notably on arch, which will give you a defective ghc installation via pacman
2022-10-08 23:38:06 +0200mixphix(~mixphix@cpe5c7d7db831c8-cm5c7d7db831c6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-10-08 23:40:06 +0200 <Guest|60> Ok. which ghc brings up /usr/bin/ghc, which is probably the culprit. Thanks
2022-10-08 23:42:03 +0200 <EvanR> zebrag, I also heard about monoidal parsers from a video somewheres/
2022-10-08 23:42:19 +0200 <EvanR> / should have been ...
2022-10-08 23:42:56 +0200 <zebrag> yes...
2022-10-08 23:43:06 +0200 <EvanR> holy crap the intro to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txf7swrcLYs
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2022-10-08 23:45:25 +0200 <EvanR> all things being equal, monoids have gotta be nicer and applicative functor or monads, in case the later two are not also monoids somehow xD
2022-10-08 23:45:31 +0200 <EvanR> nicer than*
2022-10-08 23:47:46 +0200 <zebrag> "That makes it possible to perform certain kinds of static analysis on applicative values" https://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.0749.pdf "free applicative functor" but I never understood the gist of it
2022-10-08 23:49:04 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-10-08 23:50:10 +0200 <EvanR> an applicative "program" is kind of a what you see is what you get
2022-10-08 23:51:12 +0200 <EvanR> monad programs have arbitrary functions connecting things together, so... *hand wave* no static analysis
2022-10-08 23:51:38 +0200 <justsomeguy> Oh, an Edward Kmett video. This is going to be really information dense, isn't it?
2022-10-08 23:51:41 +0200 <zebrag> applicatives are fine and I have no problem understanding what they are and the difference with monads
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2022-10-08 23:52:37 +0200 <EvanR> this is a longer less dense version of the talk I originally saw I think from boston haskell
2022-10-08 23:52:44 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:50e1:7448:ac98:298f)
2022-10-08 23:53:01 +0200 <EvanR> so if you have the time your info baud rate might be ok
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