2022/10/02

2022-10-02 00:00:03 +0200edrx(~Eduardo@2804:18:580b:d1fe:c1d0:9f8d:e583:678c) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-10-02 00:00:15 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
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2022-10-02 00:05:03 +0200jero98772(~jero98772@2800:484:1d80:d8ce:efcc:cbb3:7f2a:6dff)
2022-10-02 00:07:36 +0200 <ski> @tell edrx hm, i think i would either look into one of the `ListT' alternatives (including `LogicT') (possibly also using `MonadComprehensions'), see if i could insert `IO' or `StateT' or `WriterT' into that for the plotting; or try to go for `ContT' directly .. or else separate the plot stuff, doing it to the result of this comprehension
2022-10-02 00:07:36 +0200 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2022-10-02 00:08:43 +0200 <ski> @tell edrx well, the various streaming packages could possibly also be worthwhile to take a look at
2022-10-02 00:08:43 +0200 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2022-10-02 00:08:49 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:509f:aac5:1bc5:5910) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-02 00:11:49 +0200 <ski> @tell edrx unrelated. you asked about `={...}=' notation for justifying equality reasoning steps earlier. i got that particular notation from (short paper, six pages) "Equality proofs in Cayenne" by augustss in 1999 at <https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.37.9415>
2022-10-02 00:11:49 +0200 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2022-10-02 00:20:27 +0200qrpnxz(~qrpnxz@fsf/member/qrpnxz)
2022-10-02 00:20:39 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2022-10-02 00:22:44 +0200 <qrpnxz> lexi-lambda: hey lexi, i saw that delim prim ops got merged. Congrats! Has there been research into using these for coroutines? I'm very excited to play around with them for that kind of thing. Do you know what GHC release will have them?
2022-10-02 00:24:48 +0200anthezium(~anthezium@75.164.54.59)
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2022-10-02 00:42:51 +0200Kaipei(~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28)
2022-10-02 00:44:57 +0200 <anthezium> hey folks, is there a preferred way to do list operations on type-level lists lifted with DataKinds? Map a closed type family over a list of types, for instance?
2022-10-02 00:45:35 +0200 <anthezium> I see there is a deprecated library on hackage for this (type-lists), but I am assuming it was deprecated in favor of something better
2022-10-02 00:46:21 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-10-02 00:47:13 +0200 <geekosaur> I, uh, suspect there won't truly be anything better until Dependent Haskell happens
2022-10-02 00:47:26 +0200 <geekosaur> also I don't find type-lists, did you mean something else?
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2022-10-02 00:54:09 +0200 <anthezium> thanks geekosaur! oops, it is type-list: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-list-0.5.0.0
2022-10-02 00:55:59 +0200 <geekosaur> I nnote it has a dependency on an older version of singletons; have you checked to see if newer versions supersede it?
2022-10-02 00:58:14 +0200 <anthezium> geekosaur: Ah, Data.List.Singletons is what I want
2022-10-02 00:58:21 +0200 <anthezium> geekosaur: thank you!
2022-10-02 00:58:31 +0200 <anthezium> geekosaur: in singletons-base
2022-10-02 01:04:22 +0200jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
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2022-10-02 01:37:31 +0200 <maralorn> Aaargh, note the difference between cabal run <prog> +RTS -s and cabal run -- <prog> +RTS -s …
2022-10-02 01:37:34 +0200 <maralorn> I have been staring at the memory consumption of cabal for days.
2022-10-02 01:37:53 +0200 <maralorn> without knowing that it wasn‘t about my programm at all …
2022-10-02 01:38:13 +0200 <maralorn> Thinking I would be seeing some patterns and changes x
2022-10-02 01:38:26 +0200 <geekosaur> alias R='cabal run --'
2022-10-02 01:38:39 +0200 <maralorn> But I was actually reading tealeaves there …
2022-10-02 01:38:50 +0200 <geekosaur> (I actually have that alias)
2022-10-02 01:39:12 +0200jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
2022-10-02 01:39:32 +0200 <maralorn> The other day when we were talking about the weird memory profile of my program in #ghc, that was also just cabal /o\
2022-10-02 01:40:00 +0200 <maralorn> And it was so weird because cabal basically doesn‘t do anything other than waiting for <prog> to finish.
2022-10-02 01:40:27 +0200 <maralorn> Mistery solved.^^
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2022-10-02 02:48:16 +0200 <sm> maralorn: ha.. bad luck
2022-10-02 02:48:28 +0200 <sm> very easy to do
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2022-10-02 13:21:08 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2022-10-02 13:22:00 +0200Guest73(~Guest73@p200300ef971835d82be951927fa6facb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2022-10-02 13:23:09 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-10-02 13:24:20 +0200 <Guest73> Is something like "... -> Constraint" considered to be a type?
2022-10-02 13:25:49 +0200rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
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2022-10-02 13:28:15 +0200jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2022-10-02 13:28:38 +0200 <Guest73> Example: Is (Type -> Type) -> Constraint (e.g. Functor, Monad type class) a type? And a higher kinded one because it takes a (Type -> Type)?
2022-10-02 13:29:13 +0200Maeda(~Maeda@91-161-10-149.subs.proxad.net)
2022-10-02 13:30:38 +0200jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
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2022-10-02 13:31:36 +0200simendsjo(~user@84.211.91.241) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2022-10-02 13:35:18 +0200coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot)
2022-10-02 13:37:02 +0200coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba)
2022-10-02 13:37:33 +0200 <ncf> it's a kind
2022-10-02 13:38:25 +0200 <chreekat> ... and kinds are types
2022-10-02 13:38:43 +0200Maeda(~Maeda@91-161-10-149.subs.proxad.net) (Quit: gathering Alsa logs...)
2022-10-02 13:38:56 +0200 <probie> kinds are types, but not `Type`s
2022-10-02 13:39:39 +0200 <Guest73> So it's correct to say that the kind (which is a type) of the Functor type class is a higher-kinded type because it takes a (Type -> Type)?
2022-10-02 13:39:55 +0200Maeda(~Maeda@91-161-10-149.subs.proxad.net)
2022-10-02 13:41:06 +0200 <ncf> i think the higher-kinded type would be Functor, because its kind is higher-order
2022-10-02 13:41:57 +0200 <chreekat> I thought GHC had unified everything at some point, but I could be thinking of something else, and I could also be confusing language details with implementation details
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2022-10-02 13:44:15 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:509f:aac5:1bc5:5910)
2022-10-02 13:48:02 +0200rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2022-10-02 13:48:59 +0200 <jackdk> The kind of types-that-may-have-values is `Type`, and I think the kind of `Type` is `Type`, which you sometimes see written `Type :: Type` (enabled by the now-default `TypeInType` extension)
2022-10-02 13:49:20 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2022-10-02 13:54:12 +0200 <ski> Guest73 : `(Type -> Type) -> Constraint' is a kind, but `Functor' is not a kind. `Functor' is a higher-order type class, yes
2022-10-02 13:54:25 +0200 <ski> ncf : its kind is not higher-order
2022-10-02 13:55:18 +0200 <ski> (just like `(String -> String) -> IO ()' is not higher-order (its kind is `Type'). `interact' (having the former as its type) is higher-order)
2022-10-02 13:56:41 +0200ski. o O ( "inhabitable/concrete types" )
2022-10-02 13:57:41 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c706232fee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-10-02 14:00:04 +0200 <ncf> the terminology is a bit confusing, i guess, because a "higher-order thing" is a thing whose *type* has a certain property
2022-10-02 14:00:45 +0200coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot)
2022-10-02 14:00:47 +0200 <ncf> IMO it would make more sense to call that property "higher-order" and to call the elements "higher-typed" (just like we have "higher-kinded"), but that's maybe not the convention
2022-10-02 14:02:08 +0200 <ski> `interact' is higher-order because it accepts a function as parameter
2022-10-02 14:02:37 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95700eb002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-10-02 14:02:38 +0200 <ski> we can describe this as its type being a function type where the argument type is also a function type
2022-10-02 14:03:06 +0200skithinks "higher-kinded" is an abomination
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2022-10-02 17:50:19 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
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2022-10-02 17:56:33 +0200mud(~mud@user/kadoban) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2022-10-02 18:00:10 +0200adziahel[m](~adziahelm@2001:470:69fc:105::b4d) (Quit: You have been kicked for being idle)
2022-10-02 18:00:14 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-10-02 18:02:31 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-86.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-10-02 18:03:28 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux)
2022-10-02 18:03:55 +0200 <monochrom> Follow McQueen and say "higher-order types" plus it has an exciting acronym HOT >:)
2022-10-02 18:04:29 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-02 18:05:12 +0200 <ski> that one's fine :)
2022-10-02 18:06:15 +0200 <geekosaur> seems to me "higher kinded type" should mean the result of DataKinds promotion
2022-10-02 18:07:10 +0200 <EvanR> if a basic function has order zero, and a higher order function has order 1. Well, it's obviously higher order. What exactly is high about higher kinded .. things xD
2022-10-02 18:07:28 +0200 <EvanR> kindedness?
2022-10-02 18:08:08 +0200 <EvanR> I'm with sky
2022-10-02 18:08:11 +0200 <EvanR> ski
2022-10-02 18:08:21 +0200 <geekosaur> "data Bool = False | True", when promoted via DataKinds, makes 'Bool a higher kinded type, is my thinking
2022-10-02 18:08:25 +0200 <ski> usually you'd say basic functions has order one, and non-functions order zero. `interact' having order two
2022-10-02 18:08:36 +0200 <EvanR> oof, off by 1
2022-10-02 18:09:14 +0200bitdex_(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2022-10-02 18:09:28 +0200 <EvanR> meanwhile the kindedness of Bool and Maybe are both "yes"
2022-10-02 18:10:15 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::778c)
2022-10-02 18:10:45 +0200 <EvanR> datakinds don't seem particularly ordered vs *
2022-10-02 18:11:34 +0200rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-10-02 18:11:49 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@145.224.100.164) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-10-02 18:12:41 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@145.224.100.164)
2022-10-02 18:14:55 +0200 <ski> sorry, no idea what "kindedness" here is supposed to mean
2022-10-02 18:15:05 +0200 <ski> (and i second that about "higher")
2022-10-02 18:16:05 +0200rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-10-02 18:19:43 +0200 <EvanR> that it has a kind at all, yes
2022-10-02 18:20:48 +0200mixphix(~cigsender@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-10-02 18:22:14 +0200titibandit(~titibandi@xdsl-212-8-150-57.nc.de)
2022-10-02 18:22:15 +0200mixphix(~cigsender@bras-base-otwaon237cw-grc-11-174-91-129-69.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-10-02 18:25:22 +0200bitdex_(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-10-02 18:26:54 +0200 <ski> @quote OlinShivers
2022-10-02 18:26:54 +0200 <lambdabot> OlinShivers says: Just as C has no string type, Lisp has no list type.
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2022-10-02 22:04:51 +0200 <hololeap> EvanR: you might be interested in this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/generic-data-1.0.0.0/docs/Generic-Data.html#t:GShow1
2022-10-02 22:05:19 +0200 <EvanR> probably
2022-10-02 22:05:35 +0200 <EvanR> though I completed the Show1 instance last night, it works great
2022-10-02 22:06:08 +0200 <EvanR> I need to step up my generics fu at some point
2022-10-02 22:06:17 +0200 <geekosaur> that was what I originally suggested, in fact
2022-10-02 22:06:30 +0200 <geekosaur> wel, "go via generics"
2022-10-02 22:06:48 +0200 <geekosaur> "GShow1" follows from that if you know the naming style
2022-10-02 22:08:29 +0200 <hololeap> I think the Generically newtype is a really neat addition, or maybe I just never noticed it before.
2022-10-02 22:08:49 +0200 <hololeap> (or maybe I didn't understand DerivingVia at the time)
2022-10-02 22:10:14 +0200 <hololeap> I'm curious how well generically deriving Applicative and Alternative would work
2022-10-02 22:11:15 +0200 <hololeap> seems a bit odd to try it at all, considering something as simple as a list has (at least) two possible valid Applicative instances
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2022-10-02 22:18:08 +0200 <EvanR> deriving (Semigroup, Monoid) via Generically MyType, what is this alien tech
2022-10-02 22:19:22 +0200 <kilolympus> Hi! The behaviour of "cabal configure" seems to have changed when upgrading cabal from 3.6 to 3.8, but I have found no changelog regarding this -- does anyone know more about it?
2022-10-02 22:19:42 +0200 <kilolympus> It is specifically 1. no longer printing anything to stdout, and 2. no longer generating a plan.json
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2022-10-02 22:23:31 +0200 <geekosaur> the latter is a known issue, `cabal build --dry-run`
2022-10-02 22:24:02 +0200 <geekosaur> beyond that, try asking in #hackage
2022-10-02 22:24:13 +0200 <kilolympus> Ah that's brilliant, the dry-run generated the plan.
2022-10-02 22:24:21 +0200rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2022-10-02 22:24:22 +0200 <kilolympus> I'll do so, thanks geekosaur !
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2022-10-02 22:32:21 +0200 <hololeap> yeah deriving Semigroup/Monoid doesn't make sense to me either, unless I'm missing something
2022-10-02 22:32:54 +0200 <hololeap> might try it with Int and see what it does
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2022-10-02 22:45:15 +0200 <probie> hololeap: I assume it'll complain about not having a Monoid instance on Int. I assume to be able to derive monoid, the type needs to have a single constructor and all fields must be monoids
2022-10-02 22:45:34 +0200 <hololeap> yeah that's what I realized
2022-10-02 22:46:28 +0200 <hololeap> still very cool considering sometimes you want to use records instead of newtype A = (X,Y,Z) haha
2022-10-02 22:46:57 +0200 <ski> could conceivably work with multiple constructors of a GADT, in case they've disjoint indices
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2022-10-02 22:47:49 +0200 <probie> Can you derive generic on a GADT with disjoint indices?
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2022-10-02 23:08:28 +0200 <EvanR> hololeap, Int is a Generic?
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2022-10-02 23:15:21 +0200 <hololeap> well, I was trying it on a newtype wrapper around Int
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