2022/09/18

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2022-09-18 00:42:55 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> EvanR, you could say so, though I did come across Stack briefly...
2022-09-18 00:43:25 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> geekosaur, I 'fixed it' by adding that cabal.project to the dependent project and pointing it to the library. Apparently you don't explicitly install things these days? So I read on SO.
2022-09-18 00:43:48 +0000 <geekosaur> right
2022-09-18 00:43:55 +0000 <sclv> yep, that's basically correct -- the packages are managed in a store for you
2022-09-18 00:44:15 +0000 <geekosaur> cabal (or stack) manages installation, and more importantly exposure, of things so they don't conmflict with each other and cause "cabal hell"
2022-09-18 00:44:19 +0000 <sclv> much easier than explicitly attempting to maintain a single coherent package set for all your dev needs across projects
2022-09-18 00:44:36 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> At least now I can say I revived 10-year old code from the rot. 20% coding, 80% figuring out the new tooling.
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2022-09-18 00:48:14 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Apparently you don't use ExceptT or ErrorT anymore and go with IO exceptions? I had some trouble getting my ResourceT (ErrorT IO) to work and read you just throw exceptions inside IO these days.
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2022-09-18 00:55:33 +0000 <EvanR> or do you have a custom monad stack that can only do anything with something like unlift IO or base control
2022-09-18 00:57:22 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> StateT s (R.ResourceT IO) -- That's the monad stack now. IO was previously ErrorT String IO
2022-09-18 00:57:40 +0000 <EvanR> I know ErrorT is out
2022-09-18 00:57:42 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> ErrorT is deprecated and ExceptT is not MonadUnliftIO.
2022-09-18 00:58:10 +0000caryhartline(~caryhartl@2600:1700:2d0:8d30:217b:7ac0:b547:e8d8)
2022-09-18 00:58:27 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> I briefly read something from Snoyman about how you're doing it all wrong and that every IO has an implicit "this can fail" contract. Seemed fair enough, so I went with that.
2022-09-18 00:58:29 +0000stiell_(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2022-09-18 00:59:06 +0000 <EvanR> IO can fail, therefore it should. What is this, elixir? xD
2022-09-18 00:59:58 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Yeah but some time ago you had these transformers for error handling.
2022-09-18 01:00:13 +0000 <EvanR> what's wrong with ExceptT again
2022-09-18 01:00:35 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> ResourceT requires that the underlying monad be MonadUnliftIO, but only IO, ReaderT and another one implement that apparently.
2022-09-18 01:00:43 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> So ResourceT doesn't stack with ExceptT
2022-09-18 01:01:45 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-18 01:02:03 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Or maybe I got all that entirely wrong.
2022-09-18 01:02:16 +0000 <EvanR> ReaderT over IO was cool at one point a million years ago
2022-09-18 01:02:33 +0000 <EvanR> somewhere in the geologic record of what's cool to do in haskell
2022-09-18 01:03:05 +0000 <EvanR> maybe when we reach the singularity it will be cool to just pass stuff around
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2022-09-18 01:08:27 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> What's the goto book these days for intermediate/advanced topics?
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2022-09-18 01:32:36 +0000 <dsal> Jeanne-Kamikaze: Depends on the topic.
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2022-09-18 01:43:28 +0000 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> I guess I'm looking for 'modern' code patterns and ways of doing things.
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2022-09-18 02:17:09 +0000 <jackdk> I have written code which is an ExceptT over (eventually) a ResourceT. It's fine to runExceptT and get an `m (Either e a)` that is unliftable - this forces you to be explicit about how to handle errors which is fine
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2022-09-18 04:39:07 +0000rembo10(~rembo10@main.remulis.com)
2022-09-18 04:39:27 +0000 <sm> I see stack docs have had a nice facelift: https://haskellstack.org
2022-09-18 04:41:45 +0000 <maerwald> sm: mpilgrem is rocking it
2022-09-18 04:43:25 +0000 <sm> hooray! I'm grateful to such impactful maintainers.. mpilgrem, yourself, mikolaj come to mind (I'm omitting many others of course)
2022-09-18 04:44:49 +0000 <sm> the hls team (it seems more shared than the rest, don't know who does what)
2022-09-18 04:45:27 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-18 04:46:54 +0000 <maerwald> well-typed has been engaged in HLS lately (I think even in official capacity... but don't take my word for it)
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2022-09-18 05:24:54 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2022-09-18 05:48:03 +0000 <mjrosenb> ok, I'm using a zipper in my state; but the library that I'm providing a state for wants it to be an instance of eq. Is there a reason that zippers don't have an eq based on their contents having an eq?
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2022-09-18 06:12:25 +0000 <EvanR> what does it mean for two zippers to be equal
2022-09-18 06:13:16 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-18 06:13:28 +0000 <EvanR> is 1 :> [2,3] equal to [1,2] <: 3
2022-09-18 06:13:47 +0000 <EvanR> or [1] 2 [3]
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2022-09-18 06:30:06 +0000 <cpli> EvanR those aren't equivalent in representation, nor in behaviour, no?
2022-09-18 06:31:12 +0000 <EvanR> using random unsubstantiated reasoning, the zipper contains the same data but the pointer is not in the same location
2022-09-18 06:31:29 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-09-18 06:31:33 +0000 <EvanR> if so, the ideal == test would return false
2022-09-18 06:31:41 +0000 <mjrosenb> I'd say no?
2022-09-18 06:32:12 +0000 <EvanR> there might be counter examples where it's not so clear
2022-09-18 06:32:18 +0000 <mjrosenb> since I'm only going to be rendering the focus of the zipper, focusing on a different element would be vastly different
2022-09-18 06:32:44 +0000 <EvanR> and if you're focusing on something else with the same value?
2022-09-18 06:32:56 +0000 <cpli> that's possible?
2022-09-18 06:33:03 +0000 <cpli> oh
2022-09-18 06:33:50 +0000 <mjrosenb> I also need to know why miso wants this eq instance, since what I implement depends on how it is used.
2022-09-18 06:34:22 +0000 <cpli> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/miso
2022-09-18 06:34:56 +0000 <EvanR> there are alternative ways to define equality on stuff, but usually, whatever it is, it satisfies the laws of equivalence relations
2022-09-18 06:35:35 +0000 <EvanR> and there are many ways to define equality which screws that up and is confusing / bogus as a result
2022-09-18 06:36:09 +0000 <EvanR> alternatively if you can only think of one way, could be a good candidate
2022-09-18 06:36:25 +0000 <cpli> EvanR: having a default a la equality of indiscernibles ought to make sense, no?
2022-09-18 06:36:50 +0000 <EvanR> that's what deriving Eq does right
2022-09-18 06:36:53 +0000 <mjrosenb> since you seem to know about zippers, do you know how downward / within are supposed to be used?
2022-09-18 06:37:18 +0000 <EvanR> what zipper is this anyway
2022-09-18 06:37:21 +0000 <cpli> EvanR true.
2022-09-18 06:37:38 +0000 <mjrosenb> zippers zipper
2022-09-18 06:37:40 +0000 <mjrosenb> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zippers-0.3.2/docs/Control-Zipper.html
2022-09-18 06:39:07 +0000 <EvanR> ah. kmett
2022-09-18 06:39:12 +0000 <EvanR> no idea
2022-09-18 06:39:26 +0000 <mjrosenb> should the first argument be traverse? or ix/at?
2022-09-18 06:40:31 +0000 <mjrosenb> I guess `within traverse` is what I want.
2022-09-18 06:42:22 +0000 <mjrosenb> or do I want iWithin, and itraverse?
2022-09-18 06:43:47 +0000 <dolio> Depends if you want to see the indices, presumably.
2022-09-18 06:44:38 +0000 <mjrosenb> riiigh, that's the difference between traverse and itraverse. I use either of them so infrequently. I thought the i just meant that an index existed, not that it tracked it.
2022-09-18 06:46:43 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-18 06:47:39 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.176.158)
2022-09-18 06:48:46 +0000 <mjrosenb> Guess I should just get ghci working, and try shit until I get the output that I want
2022-09-18 06:48:58 +0000nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16)
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2022-09-18 06:55:12 +0000 <vglfr> Thinking of NaN as sorta bottom within the "domain" of floats - is it a good intuition? (reading about Ord v PartialOrd)
2022-09-18 06:55:42 +0000 <c_wraith> it works decently well as a model
2022-09-18 06:57:10 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-18 06:58:38 +0000 <vglfr> Thanks.
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2022-09-18 19:47:13 +0000 <EvanR> I thought I had a slick way to execute some abstract C-like statement code with continuation passing style. Then I read about Duff's device
2022-09-18 19:47:50 +0000 <EvanR> I don't know what's real anymore
2022-09-18 19:48:18 +0000f-a(~f-a@151.36.148.23) ()
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2022-09-18 19:49:08 +0000 <Rembane> EvanR: What put you into programmer limbo?
2022-09-18 19:50:11 +0000LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-09-18 19:51:18 +0000chexum_(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2022-09-18 19:51:29 +0000 <geekosaur> if you're worried about Duff's device you're not worrying about abstraction 🙂
2022-09-18 19:52:09 +0000chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-09-18 19:53:16 +0000 <EvanR> like, you can simply jump into a loop, wtf
2022-09-18 19:53:38 +0000 <EvanR> wrote a lot of C, not a lot of gotos
2022-09-18 19:53:40 +0000Rembanehands EvanR a sack of GOTOs
2022-09-18 19:53:49 +0000 <Rembane> My timing isn't optimal. :D
2022-09-18 19:54:15 +0000emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@2a01cb0000f39300c038d63b00f83cab.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2022-09-18 19:54:42 +0000 <EvanR> my parser parses duff's device correctly, so ... it has to work
2022-09-18 19:55:23 +0000 <geekosaur> switch is dirt simple, so it's actually not difficult for a C compiler to do that
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2022-09-18 19:57:06 +0000 <EvanR> so I need to write a real compiler to get it to work? ;_;
2022-09-18 19:57:28 +0000 <geekosaur> or at least pretend to, instead of trying to get clever with CPS
2022-09-18 19:57:48 +0000 <EvanR> nooo
2022-09-18 19:57:58 +0000 <geekosaur> of course you could just say "my compiler is about abstraction, not pretending to be just above assembler, so no Duff's device"
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2022-09-18 19:59:31 +0000 <geekosaur> of course, you could also just write whatever you intended originally and then see what it does when handed DD
2022-09-18 20:02:05 +0000 <dolio> Do people even hand-unroll their loops anymore?
2022-09-18 20:02:34 +0000 <EvanR> I did on last years advent of code
2022-09-18 20:02:54 +0000 <dolio> In C?
2022-09-18 20:03:27 +0000 <EvanR> correction, asked GCC to unroll the loops for me
2022-09-18 20:03:27 +0000 <dolio> I wouldn't even be surprised if unrolling a loop by hand is worse, because it prevents the C compiler from unrolling it better or something.
2022-09-18 20:04:28 +0000 <EvanR> even awesome game EXAPunks comes with a assembler macro to repeat some code N times
2022-09-18 20:12:25 +0000 <EvanR> the language recognized is actually B, which didn't have initializers, so I guess there's no question what should be happening if you jump into a loop
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2022-09-18 20:54:38 +0000 <ski> EvanR : i once wrote a loop in C, with a `goto' out of it, and a `goto' back inside it (just after the one out). i first conceived of the algorithm in my head, drew a flowchart of it, then translated that to (mostly) more structured constructs in C
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2022-09-18 20:57:49 +0000chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-09-18 21:02:37 +0000 <ski> (see <https://paste.debian.net/plainh/f0571cc8>. it's enumerating combinations ("ordered selections"), doing backtracking. it's essentially simulating a "power loop" in the sense of the second chapter of "Advanced Programming Language Design" by Raphael Finkel in 1996 at <https://web.archive.org/web/20150522052725/http://www.nondot.org/sabre/Mirrored/AdvProgLangDesign/>)
2022-09-18 21:03:00 +0000 <Rembane> \m/ power loop \m/
2022-09-18 21:05:06 +0000rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-18 21:08:05 +0000Guest97(~Guest97@2601:602:a080:fa0::b9fc)
2022-09-18 21:08:06 +0000 <ski> the `goto's simulate recursive calls and returns, using an array to simulate the corresponding stack (of known depth). power loops are definite (known "recursive" depth)
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2022-09-18 21:29:47 +0000 <EvanR> oh hell yeah, power loops
2022-09-18 21:31:16 +0000 <EvanR> in that code... the for loop has an initialization. If you jump into the loop, does the initialization just not happen
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2022-09-18 22:00:53 +0000edrx(~Eduardo@2804:18:6020:97ea:4484:f432:54e5:8220)
2022-09-18 22:01:29 +0000 <edrx> hi all! I am an emacs old-timer and a haskell newbie...
2022-09-18 22:01:34 +0000 <sclv> fhello!
2022-09-18 22:02:25 +0000 <Hecate> hiya
2022-09-18 22:02:26 +0000 <edrx> is there an emacs package that lets me navigate the libraries with M-. for "go to the definition of this symbol" and M-, for "go back"?
2022-09-18 22:02:29 +0000 <edrx> hi! =)
2022-09-18 22:02:58 +0000 <c_wraith> Hmm. probably, but there's a problem.. by default, the source of libraries isn't installed anywhere
2022-09-18 22:03:45 +0000 <edrx> here the sources for Process.System - for example - is in ~/bigsrc/ghc-8.10.3/libraries/process/System/
2022-09-18 22:05:04 +0000 <c_wraith> what is bigsrc?
2022-09-18 22:05:06 +0000 <edrx> nevermind, let me ask my other question too... I am trying to port this to Haskell: http://angg.twu.net/eev-maxima.html#luatree
2022-09-18 22:05:48 +0000 <ski> EvanR : note that what is initialized depend on `cur_sel' .. and `cur_sel' is exactly what is changed, as i jump out and in
2022-09-18 22:05:49 +0000 <Hecate> c_wraith: technically they are in the FS at a deterministic location… just in a tarball :p
2022-09-18 22:05:50 +0000 <edrx> c_wraith: I put the sources of things that are very big, like emacs, ghc, and agda, in ~/bigsrc/, and the smaller things in ~/usrc/
2022-09-18 22:06:08 +0000 <c_wraith> Hecate: and if you never clean up the cabal store
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2022-09-18 22:07:08 +0000 <Hecate> c_wraith: :D
2022-09-18 22:07:11 +0000 <sclv> edrx: you can use haskell-hoogle to lookup the function name in hoogle, which often suffices
2022-09-18 22:07:18 +0000 <ski> EvanR : effectively, i have `sel_count' number of `for' loops nested inside each other (with a call to `act' innermost), each one initializing, checking, and incrementing `opt_of[cur_sel]' for its particular `cur_sel' (one `for' for each value of `cur_sel')
2022-09-18 22:07:41 +0000 <edrx> my first idea was to call my script in Lua - that produces the 2D representations of trees - using the Process thing, but that's hard
2022-09-18 22:07:47 +0000 <edrx> sclv: thanks! looking
2022-09-18 22:07:58 +0000 <sclv> edrx: for your own code you can use a haskell etags generator (there are many as well) and then traditional emacs tags functions
2022-09-18 22:08:13 +0000 <sclv> or generate tags for other libs you've unpacked just to have around...
2022-09-18 22:09:32 +0000 <edrx> sclv: can you recommend me one of the etags generators?
2022-09-18 22:09:33 +0000 <ski> @where hoogle
2022-09-18 22:09:34 +0000 <lambdabot> https://hoogle.haskell.org
2022-09-18 22:09:35 +0000 <ski> @where hayoo
2022-09-18 22:09:35 +0000 <lambdabot> http://hayoo.fh-wedel.de/ -- See also Hoogle: http://haskell.org/hoogle http://fpcomplete.com/hoogle
2022-09-18 22:09:46 +0000 <edrx> hi ski! thanks!
2022-09-18 22:09:51 +0000 <ski> @hoogle mapAccumL
2022-09-18 22:09:52 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List mapAccumL :: Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
2022-09-18 22:09:52 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable mapAccumL :: Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
2022-09-18 22:09:52 +0000 <lambdabot> GHC.OldList mapAccumL :: (acc -> x -> (acc, y)) -> acc -> [x] -> (acc, [y])
2022-09-18 22:10:05 +0000 <ski> @hoogle (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
2022-09-18 22:10:06 +0000 <lambdabot> Prelude filter :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
2022-09-18 22:10:06 +0000 <lambdabot> Prelude takeWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
2022-09-18 22:10:06 +0000 <lambdabot> Prelude dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
2022-09-18 22:10:10 +0000 <ski> @hoogle+
2022-09-18 22:10:11 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List takeWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
2022-09-18 22:10:11 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
2022-09-18 22:10:11 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List dropWhileEnd :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
2022-09-18 22:10:28 +0000 <ski> heya edrx :)
2022-09-18 22:10:50 +0000 <edrx> =)
2022-09-18 22:11:06 +0000 <sclv> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hs-tags and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasktags are the two common tags generators iirc
2022-09-18 22:11:22 +0000 <EvanR> ski, yep my brain just exploded
2022-09-18 22:11:36 +0000skiwhistles innocently
2022-09-18 22:12:19 +0000 <EvanR> I have saved this code for stress testing lol
2022-09-18 22:12:21 +0000 <ski> EvanR : it's not that different from `replicateM_' for the list monad
2022-09-18 22:13:12 +0000 <edrx> I will have to go offline soon, so let me ask some basic questions to work on them offlineishly...
2022-09-18 22:13:29 +0000 <ski> EvanR : if you want to, i can give you the whole file (with call to `app_ordered_selections')
2022-09-18 22:14:43 +0000 <EvanR> sure
2022-09-18 22:15:54 +0000tdsdp^(~tdsdp@173-160-76-137-atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
2022-09-18 22:15:54 +0000 <ski> (oh and `app' was named after val app : ('a -> unit) -> 'a list -> unit in SML, which is basically `mapM_')
2022-09-18 22:16:26 +0000 <EvanR> at least the motivation makes more sense talking about list monads
2022-09-18 22:17:26 +0000shapr(~user@68.54.166.125)
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2022-09-18 22:20:31 +0000 <edrx> I found some old notes on cabal here, from when I used it to install agda without understanding it... I'm on Debian, does this look right?
2022-09-18 22:20:40 +0000 <edrx> sudo apt-get install cabal; cabal update
2022-09-18 22:20:52 +0000 <edrx> oops
2022-09-18 22:20:59 +0000 <edrx> sudo apt-get install cabal-install; cabal update
2022-09-18 22:21:02 +0000 <sclv> the current way is install ghcup, then use that to install ghc and cabal binaries both
2022-09-18 22:21:23 +0000 <sclv> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/
2022-09-18 22:21:35 +0000 <sclv> the cabal you get from apt-get may be somewhat old
2022-09-18 22:21:47 +0000 <edrx> thanks!
2022-09-18 22:21:49 +0000 <sclv> that said, apt-get should still work, just not give you the most up to dat
2022-09-18 22:22:41 +0000 <ski> EvanR, PMed you the link
2022-09-18 22:23:04 +0000 <edrx> going offline now! all hints saved! thanks, cya later =)
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2022-09-18 22:43:36 +0000 <EvanR> got it
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