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2022/08/06

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2022-08-06 02:30:12 +0000 <qrpnxz> if you index a representable functor that holds multiple values, the resulting Monad is "zippy" on the tabulation. That's pretty suspicious because last I checked ZipList isn't a Monad. I see Complex is an instance so I do go to Data.Complex, and hmmm Complex has Monad instance. I try it out and indeed it is zippy. Is Complex a valid Monad? If so why isn't ZipList one?
2022-08-06 02:33:16 +0000 <monochrom> You can go through the monad laws to verify that Complex is a monad.
2022-08-06 02:33:40 +0000 <monochrom> ZipList's issue is variable size.
2022-08-06 02:34:56 +0000 <qrpnxz> that is, dismatching sizes on (<*>) don't break applicative, but they break (>>=)?
2022-08-06 02:35:01 +0000 <qrpnxz> wow
2022-08-06 02:36:42 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2022-08-06 02:48:22 +0000 <byorgey> ZipList is not representable.
2022-08-06 02:55:48 +0000 <qrpnxz> i think it would be possible to actually index a ziplist with type level lengths. (I actually plan to try this because it gives Yoneda like benefits 🙂). However, all monad operations on the resulting index must be on values with the same rep (therefore same length), so all good!
2022-08-06 02:57:33 +0000 <byorgey> yep, ZipList with a fixed length is a valid monad, no problem.
2022-08-06 02:57:43 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 02:58:26 +0000 <qrpnxz> pretty mind blowing honestly, feels like a secret :)
2022-08-06 02:58:36 +0000 <c_wraith> infinite streams also tend to form zippy monads.
2022-08-06 02:59:05 +0000 <qrpnxz> oh my god of cource
2022-08-06 02:59:07 +0000 <qrpnxz> course'
2022-08-06 02:59:14 +0000 <qrpnxz> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/streams-3.3/docs/Data-Stream-Infinite.html
2022-08-06 02:59:19 +0000 <qrpnxz> monad!
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2022-08-06 04:41:11 +0000 <albet70> that Identity in most of monad trans, why it's a functor?
2022-08-06 04:43:12 +0000 <geekosaur> why wouldn't it be? it obeys the Functor laws trivially
2022-08-06 04:43:42 +0000 <geekosaur> and it must if it's to be a Monad, so it can be used as an identity for monad transformers
2022-08-06 04:44:38 +0000 <albet70> so could we put a functor into a monad trans?
2022-08-06 04:45:20 +0000 <geekosaur> no, the point is that to be a Monad it must also be a Functor
2022-08-06 04:45:48 +0000 <geekosaur> we want the Identity Monad, so we must also have the Identity Functor
2022-08-06 04:46:10 +0000 <geekosaur> it's not especially useful by itself, but as a Monad it acts as an identity for monad transformers
2022-08-06 04:46:13 +0000 <albet70> then why use Identity Monad in monad trans?
2022-08-06 04:46:21 +0000 <albet70> not use
2022-08-06 04:46:39 +0000 <geekosaur> not sure what you're asking
2022-08-06 04:47:02 +0000 <geekosaur> originally we had separate things like State s a vs. StateT s m a
2022-08-06 04:47:26 +0000 <geekosaur> these days State s a is a type alias for StateT s Identity a
2022-08-06 04:47:58 +0000 <geekosaur> so we don'[t have to duplicate the State machinery to support both, as was necessary in mtl 1.x
2022-08-06 04:48:11 +0000 <albet70> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-0.6.0.4/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-Cont.html#g:1
2022-08-06 04:48:21 +0000 <albet70> typeCont r = ContT r Identity
2022-08-06 04:48:41 +0000 <albet70> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/Data-Functor-Identity.html#t:Identity
2022-08-06 04:48:51 +0000 <geekosaur> same thing, yes
2022-08-06 04:49:12 +0000 <albet70> why not Control.Monad.Identity if there is
2022-08-06 04:49:53 +0000 <albet70> and why there're Data.Functor.xxx and Control.Monad.xxx?
2022-08-06 04:50:43 +0000 <geekosaur> don't try to make sense of the module hierarchy. most of it is historical accident
2022-08-06 04:51:29 +0000 <geekosaur> dating from when Monad didn't have Functor as a prerequisite, so we reconstructed it from >>= as liftM
2022-08-06 04:55:41 +0000 <monochrom> Module hierarchies are social constructs. You may as well ask why feudalism existed.
2022-08-06 04:59:16 +0000 <albet70> :t fmap
2022-08-06 04:59:17 +0000 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
2022-08-06 04:59:58 +0000 <albet70> when m~ e->, fmap :: (a->b) -> (e->a) -> (e->b), but fmap (+) (+1) would be?
2022-08-06 05:01:44 +0000 <geekosaur> :t fmap (+) (+1)
2022-08-06 05:01:45 +0000 <lambdabot> Num a => a -> a -> a
2022-08-06 05:02:02 +0000 <albet70> liftA2 :: (a -> b -> c) -> f a -> f b -> f c; liftA2 f x = (<*>) (fmap f x); this f is binary, when x is an unary, fmap a-binary on an unary, it doesn't match fmap's type
2022-08-06 05:02:49 +0000 <geekosaur> a can unify with (b -> c)
2022-08-06 05:02:56 +0000 <albet70> fmap an unary on an unary is function compose
2022-08-06 05:03:57 +0000 <geekosaur> that is, a -> b -> c is the same as a -> (b -> c), which can be treated as unary producing a function
2022-08-06 05:05:08 +0000 <albet70> but x :: f a
2022-08-06 05:06:08 +0000 <albet70> x :: (_->_)->a?
2022-08-06 05:06:45 +0000 <geekosaur> that's not how it works
2022-08-06 05:07:14 +0000 <geekosaur> x :: e -> a, f is (e ->), a is (b -> c)
2022-08-06 05:08:23 +0000 <albet70> liftA2 :: (a -> (b->c)) -> (e->a) ->(e->b) ->e -> c
2022-08-06 05:09:36 +0000 <albet70> fmap :: (a -> (b->c)) -> (e->a) -> e -> b
2022-08-06 05:10:25 +0000 <geekosaur> I think that last part is wrong. … -> e -> (b->c) (that is, result is a function)
2022-08-06 05:11:00 +0000 <geekosaur> which brings us back where it started when you asked about fmap (+) (+1)
2022-08-06 05:11:06 +0000 <geekosaur> the result being a function
2022-08-06 05:12:25 +0000 <albet70> fmap :: (a->(b->c)) -> (e->a) -> e -> (b->c)
2022-08-06 05:13:18 +0000 <albet70> fmap (+) (+1) = \x -> (+) ((+1) x)
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2022-08-06 06:15:15 +0000 <mastarija> How does one import a type alias operator explicitly? I'm trying to do this `import Data.Type.Ord ( (>?) )` but GHC complains that `Data.Type.Ord` does not export `(>?)`. However, when I remove it from the list, it says "...perhaps you want to add `>?` `to Data.Type.Ord`?".
2022-08-06 06:16:13 +0000Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2022-08-06 06:16:39 +0000 <dsal> mastarija: I think you want `type (>?)`
2022-08-06 06:17:23 +0000irfan(~irfan@user/irfan)
2022-08-06 06:18:40 +0000 <mastarija> dsal, that was indeed the case :)
2022-08-06 06:18:43 +0000 <mastarija> Thanks!
2022-08-06 06:19:28 +0000 <mastarija> Why is that though? I remember importing type aliases without a `type` prefix. Is it only necessary for operators?
2022-08-06 06:19:54 +0000 <dsal> I've not used this before. I just looked at how it was exported. :)
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2022-08-06 09:36:10 +0000[Leary](~Leary]@122-58-224-198-vdsl.sparkbb.co.nz)
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2022-08-06 10:06:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-007.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
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2022-08-06 10:33:24 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2022-08-06 10:48:34 +0000frost(~frost@user/frost)
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2022-08-06 11:03:08 +0000dcoutts__(~duncan@host86-153-247-178.range86-153.btcentralplus.com)
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2022-08-06 11:06:00 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2022-08-06 11:14:53 +0000aeka(~aeka@user/hiruji)
2022-08-06 11:15:34 +0000aeka(~aeka@user/hiruji) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-08-06 11:22:13 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 11:22:29 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@194.9.14.33) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-08-06 11:25:07 +0000[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-08-06 11:26:42 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-08-06 11:28:18 +0000dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-153-247-178.range86-153.btcentralplus.com)
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2022-08-06 11:30:41 +0000absentia(~absentia@24-246-53-210.cable.teksavvy.com)
2022-08-06 11:30:47 +0000dcoutts(~duncan@host86-153-247-178.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-08-06 11:31:50 +0000kenran(~kenran@200116b82bde68009a1957906f65488f.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-08-06 11:33:44 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2022-08-06 11:54:10 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 11:55:51 +0000 <qrpnxz> yo, i noticed stack uses some threads, but just a few. How to tell it to crank it?
2022-08-06 11:57:11 +0000naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-08-06 12:14:07 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@194.9.14.33) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-08-06 12:18:27 +0000naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au) ()
2022-08-06 12:21:13 +0000Midjak(~Midjak@82.66.147.146)
2022-08-06 12:25:21 +0000nehsou^(~nehsou@047-044-030-074.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-08-06 12:44:40 +0000naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au)
2022-08-06 12:45:02 +0000nasonilradical
2022-08-06 12:45:43 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-08-06 12:46:52 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-08-06 12:47:14 +0000nilradicalnasosev
2022-08-06 12:47:24 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.176.158)
2022-08-06 12:47:32 +0000nasosevnilradical
2022-08-06 12:47:42 +0000nilradical(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au) (Client Quit)
2022-08-06 12:48:00 +0000naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au)
2022-08-06 12:48:23 +0000naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au) (Client Quit)
2022-08-06 12:48:40 +0000nilradical(~nilradica@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au)
2022-08-06 12:52:06 +0000nilradical(~nilradica@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au) (Changing host)
2022-08-06 12:52:06 +0000nilradical(~nilradica@user/naso)
2022-08-06 12:53:59 +0000 <maerwald[m]> qrpnxz: https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/search.html?q=jobs
2022-08-06 12:54:44 +0000pwug(~pwug@user/pwug)
2022-08-06 12:54:59 +0000chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-08-06 13:02:15 +0000nilradical(~nilradica@user/naso) ()
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2022-08-06 13:08:06 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.176.158) (Quit: coot)
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2022-08-06 13:29:00 +0000ubert(~Thunderbi@91.141.47.190.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2022-08-06 13:32:49 +0000_________(~nobody@user/noodly)
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2022-08-06 13:33:51 +0000chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-08-06 13:36:42 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-08-06 13:40:00 +0000arjun(~arjun@user/arjun) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-08-06 13:40:51 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@194.9.14.33) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-08-06 13:45:18 +0000arjun(~arjun@user/arjun)
2022-08-06 13:49:14 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@194.9.14.33) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-08-06 13:49:46 +0000kenran(~kenran@200116b82bde680009db6f0db09a86b2.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Quit: WeeChat info:version)
2022-08-06 13:49:53 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@194.9.14.33)
2022-08-06 13:50:04 +0000Deide(~deide@user/deide) (Quit: Reconnecting)
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2022-08-06 13:55:06 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 13:56:59 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@194.9.14.33) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-08-06 13:58:00 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@194.9.14.33)
2022-08-06 13:58:17 +0000MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@31-161-190-199.mobile.kpn.net)
2022-08-06 14:01:33 +0000MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@31-161-190-199.mobile.kpn.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-08-06 14:05:24 +0000euandreh(~euandreh@179.214.113.107)
2022-08-06 14:06:43 +0000MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@31-161-190-199.mobile.kpn.net)
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2022-08-06 14:24:12 +0000 <Guest50> Hi, I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this SO question?:
2022-08-06 14:24:13 +0000 <Guest50> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/73249262/design-options-for-recursive-sum-product-type-in-hask…
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2022-08-06 15:39:30 +0000 <c_wraith> Guest50: My thoughts on that have been "what the heck is this question trying to ask?" since it was posted. Seems the comments agree.
2022-08-06 15:41:39 +0000Guest50(~Guest50@2a00:23c6:1c8b:f901:c8b:d9e2:b265:a2c2) ()
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2022-08-06 16:23:45 +0000 <hololeap> it seems like X is a glorified Applicative?
2022-08-06 16:25:01 +0000zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2022-08-06 16:25:28 +0000 <hololeap> Lit looks like pure, Sum looks like bisequenceA, Product looks like 'uncurry (liftA2 (,))'
2022-08-06 16:26:21 +0000 <geekosaur> Guest50 left
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2022-08-06 16:27:09 +0000 <hololeap> don't break my heart like that
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2022-08-06 17:08:15 +0000 <monochrom> And I'm always too late to interesting conversations :) :(
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2022-08-06 17:30:53 +0000 <hpc> maybe you're just really early
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2022-08-06 19:38:06 +0000 <hololeap> optparse-applicative is really interesting
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2022-08-06 19:39:10 +0000 <hpc> it's a nice reminder that parsing isn't over just because you don't have one big long string anymore
2022-08-06 19:39:37 +0000 <hpc> you can think about manipulating data structures as parsing too
2022-08-06 19:41:58 +0000 <hololeap> it's making me think deeply about command-line semantics, like I have a --verbosity=... option, and -v flags. should --verbosity=... set the verbosity in stone, or should -v be allowed to augment it? should more than one --verbosity=... option be allowed, where the each one overrides the last?
2022-08-06 19:43:28 +0000 <hololeap> because it's taking my code very literally and forcing me to think about this stuff
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2022-08-06 19:46:23 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah you should multiply. "-v 3 -v 4 -v 5" means 3*4*5. It's a monoid. >:)
2022-08-06 19:46:29 +0000 <c_wraith> Haskell libraries in general tend to have that effect - forcing you to think about edge conditions you used to confidently ignore
2022-08-06 19:47:16 +0000 <hololeap> love it
2022-08-06 19:47:26 +0000 <monochrom> Hutton says something along that line. Programming is hard, Haskell exposes that, other languages hide that, this is why other languages look easy.
2022-08-06 19:47:47 +0000 <monochrom> Although, I am not sure I completely agree. Maybe partly. :)
2022-08-06 19:48:10 +0000 <c_wraith> well, it's certainly true of some languages
2022-08-06 19:48:22 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-08-06 19:48:41 +0000 <hololeap> that was essentially the reason why I moved from ruby as my fav language to haskell
2022-08-06 19:49:09 +0000 <c_wraith> but as with most general statements, it overstates its case to be pithy
2022-08-06 19:50:12 +0000 <hololeap> c_wraith: you just made a general statement about general statements :o
2022-08-06 19:50:53 +0000 <c_wraith> very intentionally!
2022-08-06 19:51:07 +0000 <c_wraith> I didn't stumble into that trap. I leapt!
2022-08-06 19:51:25 +0000 <monochrom> This is why I stick to tautologies. Overstatements are overstated. Haha.
2022-08-06 19:52:29 +0000 <hololeap> nice
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2022-08-06 19:57:15 +0000 <hololeap> is there a nice way to simplify this? maybe V.normal S.getLast $ mconcat $ Just . S.Last <$> vos
2022-08-06 19:58:18 +0000 <hololeap> I suppose I could define safeLast :: [a] -> Maybe a
2022-08-06 20:01:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-007.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-08-06 20:01:52 +0000 <hololeap> there's one in Distribution.Simple.Utils
2022-08-06 20:13:39 +0000 <monochrom> > mempty :: Data.Monoid.Last Bool
2022-08-06 20:13:41 +0000 <lambdabot> Last {getLast = Nothing}
2022-08-06 20:14:13 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.87)
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2022-08-06 20:15:12 +0000 <[Leary]> hololeap: `foldl (\_ y -> y) V.normal`? Or something like `S.getLast . foldMap1 S.Last . (V.normal :|)` if you really want to use `Last`.
2022-08-06 20:15:15 +0000mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-08-06 20:16:07 +0000 <hololeap> nah, I just settled with `fromJust V.normal (safeLast vos)`
2022-08-06 20:16:18 +0000 <hololeap> and then I decided that wasn't what I wanted to do anyway :3
2022-08-06 20:16:24 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 20:17:09 +0000Guest8730(~Guest87@cpc77311-basf12-2-0-cust212.12-3.cable.virginm.net)
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2022-08-06 20:18:20 +0000 <hololeap> I went with this as my verbosity flag semantics: verbosityOption <|> (`appEndo` V.normal) . mconcat <$> many verbosityFlag
2022-08-06 20:18:51 +0000 <hololeap> so either use --verbosity=3 or -vv, not both
2022-08-06 20:19:18 +0000 <hololeap> I should probably throw a --silent in there as well
2022-08-06 20:25:18 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2022-08-06 20:30:46 +0000 <erisco> sup
2022-08-06 20:30:57 +0000dolio(~dolio@130.44.130.54)
2022-08-06 20:31:04 +0000 <dsal> I took my dog on my sup for like an hour and half this morning.
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2022-08-06 20:33:44 +0000 <hololeap> nice, my dog isn't very good at that :)
2022-08-06 20:34:05 +0000 <erisco> monochrom, having been a web-glue code monkey for a long time now, I think it is as simple as most programming work out there aint that hard
2022-08-06 20:34:12 +0000 <hololeap> got him to lay down for 5 minutes one time XD
2022-08-06 20:39:11 +0000MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@86-88-79-148.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-08-06 20:43:38 +0000 <dsal> hololeap: Mine will stand up until his legs are shaking. I can get him to sit now and then, but he's super excited about everything. Today was pretty calm, but we had some good times last Saturday: https://youtu.be/VGt8-f1Jclw :)
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2022-08-06 20:45:19 +0000 <hololeap> yeah, the shaking and overall squirreliness doesn't really help with the SU part of SUP
2022-08-06 20:46:29 +0000azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-08-06 20:46:36 +0000chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-08-06 20:46:45 +0000shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.167.202)
2022-08-06 20:47:06 +0000adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-08-06 20:47:31 +0000 <hololeap> dsal, looks awesome :) are you on the ocean?
2022-08-06 20:48:58 +0000hgolden(~hgolden2@cpe-172-251-233-141.socal.res.rr.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-08-06 20:51:00 +0000 <dsal> Yeah, I'm out in the middle of the pacific. That's my morning before work. My day starts a bit later than most of the folks I work with. heh.
2022-08-06 20:51:16 +0000 <dsal> To steer towards relevance, though, I do work in Haskell. heh
2022-08-06 20:52:13 +0000 <hpc> there's a liquid haskell joke here somewhere
2022-08-06 20:52:47 +0000 <dsal> haha. I've not actually used that.
2022-08-06 20:52:50 +0000EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
2022-08-06 20:52:56 +0000 <dmj`> is backpack for real not supported by stack?
2022-08-06 20:52:58 +0000 <dsal> I did get to use QualifiedDo last week which was very exciting.
2022-08-06 20:53:29 +0000nattiestnate(~nate@180.243.13.242)
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2022-08-06 20:56:28 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2022-08-06 20:56:40 +0000mastarija(~mastarija@2a05:4f46:e02:8c00:5d6d:dddd:e86a:2db4)
2022-08-06 20:57:05 +0000 <mastarija> Does anyone know if this paper was implemented into GHC? https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/higher-order-type-level-programming-in-haskell/
2022-08-06 20:57:30 +0000 <mastarija> Basically, do we have `~>` the unmatchable arrow available?
2022-08-06 20:58:06 +0000 <geekosaur> not in current ghc. don't know if there's a proposal for it
2022-08-06 20:58:41 +0000 <mastarija> I've watched Csongors talk from 2019, and wanted to try it out :)
2022-08-06 21:00:08 +0000 <mastarija> In particular, I've noticed they are proposing `->{m}` arrow syntax, to allow for both unsaturated type families and regular type constructors to be mapped over a type level list which seems unnecessary
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2022-08-06 21:20:45 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2022-08-06 21:28:06 +0000 <qrpnxz> maerwald[m]: tyvm, sir
2022-08-06 21:30:59 +0000 <EvanR> i dunno why I can't stand stabby "unbalanced" arrow syntaxes
2022-08-06 21:31:36 +0000 <EvanR> at least make it ->{m}<- xD
2022-08-06 21:31:49 +0000 <EvanR> so it doesn't accelerate off to the right
2022-08-06 21:32:10 +0000 <dsal> You don't like fast code?
2022-08-06 21:32:16 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-08-06 21:32:17 +0000 <erisco> {w}<-->{m}
2022-08-06 21:32:28 +0000 <monochrom> Do you like >_< ? :)
2022-08-06 21:32:33 +0000 <erisco> it threatens to spin right off the page
2022-08-06 21:32:50 +0000 <EvanR> when concrete syntax is an accurate ephemism for code performance that'll be the day
2022-08-06 21:33:01 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 21:34:15 +0000jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d46bad.access.ecotel.net)
2022-08-06 21:34:35 +0000 <EvanR> another way to salvage the situation, some other feature looks like {m}->
2022-08-06 21:34:54 +0000phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-54.hnremote.net)
2022-08-06 21:34:56 +0000 <geekosaur> don't give them ideas
2022-08-06 21:35:10 +0000 <EvanR> the arrow to nowhere
2022-08-06 21:36:27 +0000 <darkling> x↫↺↷y
2022-08-06 21:37:11 +0000 <darkling> (That's not a "y", that's a dizzy lambda)
2022-08-06 21:37:59 +0000 <EvanR> it's the 2010 era obligatory reflection beneath lambda
2022-08-06 21:38:22 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-08-06 21:38:24 +0000 <monochrom> I like drunk lambda. :)
2022-08-06 21:38:31 +0000 <EvanR> with a fade out
2022-08-06 21:38:45 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.176.158)
2022-08-06 21:38:58 +0000 <geekosaur> clearly unicode needs a butterfly arrow
2022-08-06 21:39:03 +0000 <qrpnxz> are arrows still relevant? I vaguely though that Applicative killed them, but i saw a post from haxl guys saying actually arrows would have been perfect for them if it weren't for do notation and maybe some slight change in the type class hierarchy. They said they might submit a change later but who knows. Still haven't used arrows almost at all since without arrow syntax, which i haven't learned,
2022-08-06 21:39:05 +0000 <qrpnxz> it's a bit of a tough ask 😄
2022-08-06 21:39:48 +0000 <geekosaur> Cale wants to submit some changes to arrows as well iirc
2022-08-06 21:39:49 +0000 <EvanR> it's not Applicative, but Profunctor and friends
2022-08-06 21:40:03 +0000 <geekosaur> anyway they still have their uses
2022-08-06 21:40:08 +0000 <erisco> get rid of arr and you're on to something, I think
2022-08-06 21:40:37 +0000 <EvanR> it's almost symmetric monoidal categories
2022-08-06 21:40:42 +0000 <EvanR> which are cool
2022-08-06 21:40:43 +0000 <qrpnxz> yeah that stand out to me a lot in profunctors, no arr anywhere. I realized that you can get arr by just adding the Category instance though
2022-08-06 21:41:04 +0000 <monochrom> For now, arrows aren't very relevant outside hxt-arrows and some FRP approaches. But perhaps the future is different.
2022-08-06 21:41:05 +0000 <geekosaur> that iiirc was where Cale wanted to go with them
2022-08-06 21:41:19 +0000 <geekosaur> (symetric monoidal categories, that is)
2022-08-06 21:41:48 +0000 <EvanR> category doesn't let you do arr, only id :: f a a
2022-08-06 21:41:58 +0000 <monochrom> Hey I don't know what that is, but you can't go wrong with something with an elegant math name. :)
2022-08-06 21:42:19 +0000 <qrpnxz> EvanR: so it does let you :), it's just more than necessary
2022-08-06 21:42:45 +0000 <monochrom> Right? All three words "symmetric", "monoidal", and "category" are like the holy grails of elegance >:)
2022-08-06 21:42:54 +0000 <qrpnxz> haha, and isomorphism
2022-08-06 21:42:57 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-007.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-08-06 21:43:27 +0000 <EvanR> yeah, I'm a fan. A cargo cult member, but a fan
2022-08-06 21:44:20 +0000mastarija(~mastarija@2a05:4f46:e02:8c00:5d6d:dddd:e86a:2db4) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-08-06 21:45:20 +0000 <EvanR> I was clued in to the blog https://graphicallinearalgebra.net/ which delves into it
2022-08-06 21:46:12 +0000qrpnxzbookmarks
2022-08-06 21:46:51 +0000 <EvanR> I like this blog for secretly being category theory without spending any time explaining anything about category theory
2022-08-06 21:47:17 +0000 <monochrom> "Liber Abaci" is a cool name. Computers want to be free!
2022-08-06 21:47:18 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 21:47:22 +0000 <erisco> kind of the opposite of Haskell then
2022-08-06 21:47:26 +0000 <qrpnxz> lol
2022-08-06 21:48:08 +0000 <EvanR> ikr
2022-08-06 21:51:39 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-231.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-08-06 21:51:56 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-08-06 21:54:07 +0000 <erisco> chapter one says defining 2x3 matrices as a collection of numbers is like defining poetry as a collection of words... I think I see this reductionist error committed all the time in programming
2022-08-06 21:54:29 +0000nattiestnate(~nate@180.243.13.242) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
2022-08-06 21:54:41 +0000 <erisco> like, for example, an integer is just a collection of bits
2022-08-06 21:54:42 +0000 <monochrom> You know what, I completely don't get poetry, that definition works for me. :)
2022-08-06 21:55:20 +0000 <monochrom> (If someone can define poetry by a CFG or something, I'm all ears.)
2022-08-06 21:56:07 +0000 <erisco> and it can make certain conversations impossible
2022-08-06 21:57:26 +0000 <monochrom> But that's a hyperbole. Mathematicians speak like reductionists without actually being reductionists.
2022-08-06 21:58:09 +0000 <monochrom> "A monoid is a tuple of a set, an identity element, and a binary operation; and these axioms..."
2022-08-06 21:58:27 +0000 <monochrom> The "a set" there sounds reductionists right there.
2022-08-06 21:58:38 +0000 <erisco> yes, but then students, such as myself, can get confused about different levels of description
2022-08-06 21:59:16 +0000 <monochrom> But you read on and find out that the writer respects the structure induced by the identity element, the binary operations, and the axioms. It is not reductionist at all.
2022-08-06 22:01:22 +0000 <monochrom> I believe that the status quo is already the least worst.
2022-08-06 22:01:26 +0000 <erisco> I see this all the time in designing computer systems... for example, "user" might refer to a human interacting with the system, or it might refer to a username, or it might refer to a table row, or an object class, and so on
2022-08-06 22:02:39 +0000 <monochrom> Consider the alternative: "The integers are an abstract type that supports the following API and obeys the following axioms". You will be left with no audience at all.
2022-08-06 22:03:35 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-08-06 22:03:45 +0000 <monochrom> With "an integer is a bunch of bits/digits" you at least can retain some audience and you can tell the abstract reality later.
2022-08-06 22:04:37 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 22:04:39 +0000 <erisco> it is a lure... I know ones and zeros, and if so if an integer is just a collection of those, it can't be so hard
2022-08-06 22:05:10 +0000geekosaureyes "CFG" suspiciously
2022-08-06 22:05:49 +0000 <geekosaur> emotion is unlikely to ever boil down to anything so simple
2022-08-06 22:06:10 +0000 <monochrom> I know how to teach queues abstractly, i.e., without referring to any model such as "a linked list and you may only front-add and back-delete". I know no one actually does that, not even myself. There is a reason.
2022-08-06 22:06:14 +0000 <erisco> obv... emotion can only be described with an attribute grammar
2022-08-06 22:07:41 +0000 <erisco> I dunno monochrom, I feel like this sort of reductionism can be a curse
2022-08-06 22:08:27 +0000 <qrpnxz> i've never seen "user" refer to username, or table row, or object class. I thought you were going to say it can refer to a human, or also to some computer client
2022-08-06 22:08:42 +0000 <geekosaur> I have
2022-08-06 22:08:50 +0000 <geekosaur> but I used to be a DBA
2022-08-06 22:08:59 +0000 <erisco> you have never seen a users table or a User class?
2022-08-06 22:09:32 +0000 <qrpnxz> Well User pretty distinct form user :), i guess what was missing is the context.
2022-08-06 22:09:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-007.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-08-06 22:09:56 +0000phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-54.hnremote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-08-06 22:10:05 +0000 <monochrom> I've never seen an OOP programmer who doesn't use the word "car" to refer to an in-memory imposter object that pretends to be a car. >:)
2022-08-06 22:10:17 +0000phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-54.hnremote.net)
2022-08-06 22:10:38 +0000nattiestnate(~nate@180.243.13.242)
2022-08-06 22:11:16 +0000 <erisco> there is something that seems better about more fundamental descriptions... more real, or more informed, more advanced, etc... it has merit in physics I think but it doesn't translate the same to mathematics, or to computer science by extension, and I think that is where the harm comes from
2022-08-06 22:11:22 +0000 <monochrom> Oh hey to be fair, I have never seen a Haskell programmer who doesn't use the word "Person" to refer to "data Person = Person { ...}" which is a record type not a person. >:)
2022-08-06 22:11:22 +0000 <qrpnxz> monochrom: btw, ...abstract reality? That sounds oxymoronic xD
2022-08-06 22:11:59 +0000 <geekosaur> no? some ways rerality is the ultimate abstraction
2022-08-06 22:12:08 +0000 <darkling> Have a look at the http-range-14 arguments some time. :)
2022-08-06 22:12:11 +0000 <qrpnxz> to me reality is the opposite of abstraction
2022-08-06 22:12:20 +0000 <monochrom> When I teach the State monad I also say "the fantasy of mutable state" and "the mathematical reality" >:)
2022-08-06 22:12:26 +0000 <qrpnxz> reality is as specific as you get, sample of one, unique
2022-08-06 22:12:35 +0000 <qrpnxz> all abstraction is extracting a pattern out of that
2022-08-06 22:12:48 +0000 <monochrom> Right? "Reality" means whatever I define it to mean!
2022-08-06 22:12:56 +0000 <geekosaur> you might look at how well that worked for robotics
2022-08-06 22:13:20 +0000 <geekosaur> abstraction turned out to be necessary, becayuse treating everything as a concrete one-off lost hard
2022-08-06 22:14:06 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.87) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-08-06 22:15:44 +0000 <monochrom> But more concretely (pun!), in the case of trying to describe an "integer type", suppose you are given Haskell 2020 without the Data.Bits module. Then Haskell's "Integer type" is truly an abstract type, you are not given access to its representation, you may only use a puny API such as read, (+), show. Your reality is abstract.
2022-08-06 22:15:56 +0000 <monochrom> Err Haskell 2010!
2022-08-06 22:16:01 +0000 <EvanR> you can have many mutually incompatible realities coexisting for whatever reason
2022-08-06 22:16:11 +0000 <erisco> I shy away from "abstraction" anymore because it suggests something illusory, and that is not what I intend
2022-08-06 22:16:21 +0000 <monochrom> (There is no "Haskell 2020 The Pandemic Special Edition" haha)
2022-08-06 22:16:27 +0000kyborg2011(~kyborg201@host-176-36-215-61.b024.la.net.ua)
2022-08-06 22:16:40 +0000 <qrpnxz> arguable even bits respects ADT, because you can think it only pulls bits from "where they should be". You can implement bits for something that didn't have bits.
2022-08-06 22:17:01 +0000 <EvanR> I'm doubling down on abstraction any time I mean "stuff I care about" and this is not literally everything in sight
2022-08-06 22:17:22 +0000 <monochrom> I have begun to tell students "it's telephone games all the way down".
2022-08-06 22:17:26 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7058605e481051ccd0ab90b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-08-06 22:17:28 +0000 <qrpnxz> noooo
2022-08-06 22:17:37 +0000 <EvanR> and it's annoying when someone comes to a conclusion that we care about everything in sight
2022-08-06 22:18:02 +0000JimL(~quassel@89-162-2-132.fiber.signal.no)
2022-08-06 22:18:33 +0000 <monochrom> Strictly technicality speaking, as far as science has found, the only reality for computing is the quantum world. But what's the fun in that?
2022-08-06 22:18:37 +0000 <darkling> There are multiple abstractions, depending on who you're talking to and what they do with the ideas.
2022-08-06 22:18:48 +0000 <EvanR> if you begin from pure constructions and move toward a solution from nothing, it's impossible to care about everything ever, much easier xD
2022-08-06 22:18:58 +0000 <darkling> The difficulties come when two of those domains collide, and you've got to make sense of both at the same time.
2022-08-06 22:19:15 +0000 <monochrom> Anything above the quantum level is a fictional abstraction, by definition.
2022-08-06 22:19:35 +0000 <EvanR> quantum physics is its own perfectly cromulent abstraction
2022-08-06 22:19:36 +0000zanyan(~zanyan@2a02:6b64:f194:0:d0c7:84be:16ed:9f2a)
2022-08-06 22:19:40 +0000 <qrpnxz> sure? i've seen above the quantum level, never seen below it.
2022-08-06 22:19:41 +0000 <darkling> I'm pretty sure quantum mechanics is a poor abstraction, too. We just haven't worked out what of yet.
2022-08-06 22:19:45 +0000 <monochrom> And also a social construct!
2022-08-06 22:20:14 +0000 <zanyan> Hey there! Was wondering whether I could get some help on a Haskell project I'm working on? The modules don't seem to be loading
2022-08-06 22:20:35 +0000 <qrpnxz> could you be more specific
2022-08-06 22:20:43 +0000 <zanyan> Well I'm using this http://learn.hfm.io/fractals/fractals.html to try and draw some recursive fractal code
2022-08-06 22:20:52 +0000kyborg2011(~kyborg201@host-176-36-215-61.b024.la.net.ua) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-08-06 22:20:54 +0000PiDelport(uid25146@id-25146.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-08-06 22:21:22 +0000EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-08-06 22:21:27 +0000 <qrpnxz> lol
2022-08-06 22:21:39 +0000 <qrpnxz> sorry guy, i don't have a mac
2022-08-06 22:21:47 +0000 <zanyan> no no, I don't have one either
2022-08-06 22:21:52 +0000nattiestnate(~nate@180.243.13.242) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
2022-08-06 22:22:06 +0000 <zanyan> I don't think you need one(?...)
2022-08-06 22:22:18 +0000 <zanyan> or wait, do you? which would probably explain why none of the code is working
2022-08-06 22:23:17 +0000 <geekosaur[m]> Looks to me like it uses cabal v1
2022-08-06 22:23:39 +0000 <qrpnxz> "Run GHCi inside the Fractals.hsproj directory after downloading and unpacking. Then, load the Fractals module"
2022-08-06 22:23:43 +0000 <qrpnxz> did you do that?
2022-08-06 22:23:57 +0000 <zanyan> yup, ran GHCi in the directory, and loaded the fractals module
2022-08-06 22:24:04 +0000 <geekosaur[m]> Things don't work that way with cabal v3, you need to create a project
2022-08-06 22:24:09 +0000 <zanyan> but when I did, it said no modules loaded
2022-08-06 22:24:23 +0000 <zanyan> right right, thank you!
2022-08-06 22:24:42 +0000 <geekosaur[m]> Dependencies won't be found otherwise
2022-08-06 22:24:53 +0000 <zanyan> I'm trying to find some nice interactive tutorials on haskell... it's a shame this tut is outdated then
2022-08-06 22:25:01 +0000 <qrpnxz> hoogle says you need https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Rasterific and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/JuicyPixels
2022-08-06 22:25:17 +0000 <zanyan> I'm applying to universities so I thought it would it be neat to learn some functional programming ahead of time
2022-08-06 22:25:17 +0000 <qrpnxz> you can get those with `cabal install --lib [namehere]`
2022-08-06 22:25:25 +0000 <geekosaur[m]> You could also force v1 but we got rid of it for very good reason
2022-08-06 22:25:26 +0000 <zanyan> alright I'll try that!
2022-08-06 22:25:27 +0000 <qrpnxz> zanyan: neat!
2022-08-06 22:25:45 +0000 <zanyan> (well, I'm still unsure whether I want to do Econ or CS but still :P)
2022-08-06 22:26:04 +0000 <monochrom> Do both.
2022-08-06 22:26:15 +0000 <qrpnxz> lol
2022-08-06 22:26:24 +0000 <zanyan> oh, if only I could
2022-08-06 22:26:27 +0000 <monochrom> We need more programmers who understand and accept that a lot of programming decisions are economical.
2022-08-06 22:26:29 +0000 <qrpnxz> why not
2022-08-06 22:26:36 +0000 <qrpnxz> haha
2022-08-06 22:26:51 +0000 <qrpnxz> super combo: actuarial science + CS
2022-08-06 22:27:03 +0000 <zanyan> Unfortunately the universities in the UK do not offer it :(
2022-08-06 22:27:09 +0000 <qrpnxz> ????
2022-08-06 22:27:15 +0000 <zanyan> well, econ + cs
2022-08-06 22:27:17 +0000 <qrpnxz> who doesn't offer econ
2022-08-06 22:27:32 +0000 <qrpnxz> what? You can't do two degrees in UK?
2022-08-06 22:27:32 +0000 <zanyan> oh, many offer econ, but not many offer a joint degree of econ and cs
2022-08-06 22:27:49 +0000 <zanyan> well, I'm 17 so I'm going to be an undergrad. I can only pick one at the moment
2022-08-06 22:28:22 +0000 <zanyan> @qr
2022-08-06 22:28:22 +0000 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v url src rc pl id do bf arr @ ? .
2022-08-06 22:28:31 +0000 <monochrom> I have a feeling that if you go for a game theory degree then it's one degree but it does both economics and CS.
2022-08-06 22:28:38 +0000 <zanyan> uhhh yeah installing the libraries again doesn't do much
2022-08-06 22:29:11 +0000 <zanyan> monochrom oh yeah, I love reading about game theory
2022-08-06 22:29:24 +0000 <zanyan> https://github.com/Zzzayaan/the_prisoners_dilemma/blob/main/the_prisoners_dilemma.ipynb (here's my little notebook where I've looked into it)
2022-08-06 22:29:56 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.176.158) (Quit: coot)
2022-08-06 22:30:21 +0000 <erisco> what job does an economist hold after graduating? I am wondering if it is like CS where you learn propositional logic and how to balance AVL trees to then write HTTP handlers than shuffle JSON around for the next 30 years
2022-08-06 22:30:28 +0000 <zanyan> I feel like I would have a better chance of getting into a good university for econ though, we at least have an economics teacher. Unfortunately I haven't studied CS yet and we have no support for the subject
2022-08-06 22:30:57 +0000 <zanyan> erisco well a lot go into IB and consultancy
2022-08-06 22:31:18 +0000 <zanyan> I suppose a lot head into the public sector too
2022-08-06 22:32:56 +0000jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d46bad.access.ecotel.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-08-06 22:33:05 +0000kyborg2011(~kyborg201@host-176-36-215-61.b024.la.net.ua)
2022-08-06 22:33:22 +0000 <qrpnxz> loading the file work just fine for me after cabal installing the libs
2022-08-06 22:33:26 +0000jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d46bad.access.ecotel.net)
2022-08-06 22:34:11 +0000 <zanyan> really?
2022-08-06 22:34:18 +0000 <qrpnxz> yes
2022-08-06 22:34:21 +0000 <zanyan> I'll try do it again
2022-08-06 22:35:05 +0000 <zanyan> `cabal install --lib JuicyPixels` and `cabal install --lib Rasterific` right?
2022-08-06 22:35:16 +0000 <zanyan> then cd into the directory
2022-08-06 22:35:32 +0000 <geekosaur> I think you need to be in the directory
2022-08-06 22:35:48 +0000 <zanyan> oh, cd first and load them then?
2022-08-06 22:35:55 +0000 <geekosaur> so the environment file containing those libraries is available to it
2022-08-06 22:36:11 +0000 <zanyan> alright, that's where I might've been wrong
2022-08-06 22:37:01 +0000 <zanyan> no, still getting the error :/
2022-08-06 22:37:30 +0000niko(niko@libera/staff/niko) (Ping timeout: 615 seconds)
2022-08-06 22:37:42 +0000 <zanyan> after installing them in the directory, I run ghci and then do `:l Fractals.hs` and that's where I see the "Failed, no modules loaded" dialogue
2022-08-06 22:38:03 +0000 <geekosaur> there should be more errors before that, can you pastebin them?
2022-08-06 22:38:08 +0000 <geekosaur> @where paste
2022-08-06 22:38:08 +0000 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
2022-08-06 22:38:08 +0000 <zanyan> will do
2022-08-06 22:38:45 +0000 <zanyan> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jYK8CNdd
2022-08-06 22:39:07 +0000 <erisco> zanyan, maybe your intersection is automated trading
2022-08-06 22:39:35 +0000 <zanyan> aha, I'm not sure. I've told my school I want to do CS at Oxford
2022-08-06 22:39:49 +0000 <geekosaur> so you have it installed in the environment twice and that's confusing ghci
2022-08-06 22:39:57 +0000 <zanyan> but if I feel like I would like to switch to Econ, then Cambridge is probably the better choice for me
2022-08-06 22:40:11 +0000 <zanyan> geekosaur ah right, how would I go about fixing that?
2022-08-06 22:40:19 +0000noteness(~noteness@user/noteness) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-08-06 22:40:22 +0000 <erisco> academically, I know profs involved with economic simulations
2022-08-06 22:41:19 +0000 <geekosaur> there should be a file .ghc.environment.<platform>-<ghcversion> in that directory
2022-08-06 22:41:41 +0000noteness(~noteness@user/noteness)
2022-08-06 22:41:46 +0000 <geekosaur> so for example I have a .ghc.environment.x86_64-linux-9.2.2
2022-08-06 22:41:51 +0000 <erisco> there aint all that much for programmers that doesn't intersect with another discipline
2022-08-06 22:42:04 +0000 <geekosaur> edit that file and look for duplicate lines
2022-08-06 22:42:17 +0000 <geekosaur> or lines that only differ in the hash
2022-08-06 22:42:29 +0000 <geekosaur> or remove the file completely and `cabal install --lib` again
2022-08-06 22:42:46 +0000 <zanyan> hmmm, alright, I'll try do that now, thanks!
2022-08-06 22:43:02 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-007.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-08-06 22:44:45 +0000 <zanyan> okay well I created a new directory with a fresh copy of those .hs project files
2022-08-06 22:44:49 +0000 <zanyan> would that work?
2022-08-06 22:45:13 +0000 <geekosaur> yes. a bit silly since everything else is okay, just that environment file needs to be regenerated properly
2022-08-06 22:46:11 +0000 <zanyan> I couldn't find that file for some reason
2022-08-06 22:47:20 +0000 <geekosaur> hm. possibly it's in the global environment then, in which case it needs to be removed from there
2022-08-06 22:47:53 +0000 <zanyan> yeah, I'll try do that since I'm getting the same message
2022-08-06 22:48:18 +0000 <geekosaur> ~/.ghc/<platform>-<ghcver>/environments
2022-08-06 22:48:30 +0000 <geekosaur> I think it's a file default in that directory
2022-08-06 22:48:59 +0000takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-08-06 22:50:52 +0000JimL(~quassel@89-162-2-132.fiber.signal.no) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2022-08-06 22:51:41 +0000qrpnxz(~qrpnxz@fsf/member/qrpnxz) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-08-06 22:52:05 +0000JimL(~quassel@89-162-2-132.fiber.signal.no)
2022-08-06 22:52:30 +0000qrpnxz(~qrpnxz@fsf/member/qrpnxz)
2022-08-06 22:54:01 +0000 <zanyan> ah, it's proving to be a pain
2022-08-06 22:54:17 +0000 <zanyan> I'm using windows so I'm not sure how different that'll be for linux systems
2022-08-06 22:56:42 +0000aeka(~aeka@user/hiruji) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-08-06 22:57:39 +0000aeka(~aeka@2606:6080:1001:17:9ea4:71f9:d294:d7b7)
2022-08-06 23:01:02 +0000 <geekosaur> hrm. 9.2.2 at least only documents unix paths for environment files 😞
2022-08-06 23:03:21 +0000hgolden(~hgolden2@cpe-172-251-233-141.socal.res.rr.com)
2022-08-06 23:06:42 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-08-06 23:08:43 +0000 <zanyan> oh well, maybe it's a sign I shouldn't work on this project lol
2022-08-06 23:08:51 +0000Midjak(~Midjak@82.66.147.146) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2022-08-06 23:08:55 +0000 <qrpnxz> idk why even after you said you never programmed and don't use mac, i just assume you are on linux lol. You poor soul
2022-08-06 23:09:04 +0000 <zanyan> (maybe it's a sign I should go study Econ instead???)
2022-08-06 23:09:12 +0000 <zanyan> haha it's fine!
2022-08-06 23:09:17 +0000 <qrpnxz> it's a sign programming not trivial :)
2022-08-06 23:09:42 +0000 <zanyan> I have programmed a little - I used Python here when discussing some game theory https://github.com/Zzzayaan/the_prisoners_dilemma/blob/main/the_prisoners_dilemma.ipynb
2022-08-06 23:09:56 +0000 <zanyan> very very simple python algorithms but yeah that's about it
2022-08-06 23:10:37 +0000 <qrpnxz> i think about the very first thing i played with (after bash) was python, but went immediately to C
2022-08-06 23:11:01 +0000 <zanyan> interesting choice
2022-08-06 23:11:22 +0000 <zanyan> my first programming language wasn't a language at all, I just got experienced at messing with actionscript bytecode
2022-08-06 23:11:35 +0000 <qrpnxz> i think best choice, personally (for learning)
2022-08-06 23:11:43 +0000 <zanyan> after that it's pretty much been tinkering
2022-08-06 23:12:37 +0000 <qrpnxz> C don't have many very good online resources but i made do. Later I learned about the K&R C book and it's my go to recommend. Excellent book
2022-08-06 23:12:47 +0000 <zanyan> I don't think I have time to learn C in depth within this month though
2022-08-06 23:12:58 +0000 <zanyan> I have to send my application off by October
2022-08-06 23:13:27 +0000 <qrpnxz> with the book you could learn pretty good C in a month easy i think. As to whether that gives any advantage for some college application, i have no idea
2022-08-06 23:14:05 +0000 <zanyan> It might do, depends if I have enough time to apply that knowledge somewhere (maybe binary exploitation?)
2022-08-06 23:14:47 +0000JimL(~quassel@89-162-2-132.fiber.signal.no) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-08-06 23:14:54 +0000 <geekosaur> more like making trivially exploitable binaries, if you;re learningf from K&R
2022-08-06 23:15:02 +0000 <geekosaur> it's a book from an earlier age
2022-08-06 23:15:12 +0000 <zanyan> oh right
2022-08-06 23:15:55 +0000JimL(~quassel@89-162-2-132.fiber.signal.no)
2022-08-06 23:16:24 +0000 <zanyan> it's going to be pretty weird using it on Windows though. Heard Linux is a very C-friendly OS
2022-08-06 23:16:39 +0000 <zanyan> I suppose WSL exists for a reason though
2022-08-06 23:16:46 +0000 <erisco> C is the 101 at my uni
2022-08-06 23:17:01 +0000 <qrpnxz> erisco: what uni?
2022-08-06 23:17:04 +0000 <qrpnxz> nice
2022-08-06 23:17:17 +0000 <erisco> university of windsor (canada)
2022-08-06 23:17:20 +0000 <zanyan> nice
2022-08-06 23:17:35 +0000 <qrpnxz> zanyan: linux is generally programming friendly. I consider windows to be generally not technical user friendly
2022-08-06 23:18:11 +0000 <zanyan> I want to apply to Oxford, Imperial, UCL, St Andrews and Durham if I'll be applying for CS. For economics, probably Cambridge, LSE, UCL, Imperial and Kings
2022-08-06 23:18:27 +0000 <zanyan> qrpnxz Gotchu
2022-08-06 23:19:22 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
2022-08-06 23:19:22 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-08-06 23:19:22 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-08-06 23:20:57 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-06 23:22:37 +0000 <erisco> I wonder if schools should update C to Rust
2022-08-06 23:24:01 +0000 <qrpnxz> i doubt it. C is much simpler, and the direct memory manipulation is very informative. But I would be in support of doing Rust shortly after C
2022-08-06 23:26:26 +0000[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-08-06 23:30:05 +0000[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-08-06 23:30:57 +0000zanyan(~zanyan@2a02:6b64:f194:0:d0c7:84be:16ed:9f2a) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-08-06 23:33:19 +0000 <erisco> the memory manipulation with Assembly is better
2022-08-06 23:38:25 +0000 <qrpnxz> i disagree
2022-08-06 23:38:44 +0000 <qrpnxz> math is too much of a pain in assembly
2022-08-06 23:39:07 +0000 <qrpnxz> C at least have expressions
2022-08-06 23:40:28 +0000 <erisco> math in assembly is alright if you are good at towers of honoi :P
2022-08-06 23:40:38 +0000 <qrpnxz> lmao
2022-08-06 23:41:28 +0000 <monochrom> Schools will not update C to Rust if Unix does not update C to Rust.
2022-08-06 23:43:13 +0000 <erisco> the number of profs for who C was a breakthrough will only decrease, and I think that will lead to its academic extinction... but likely no sooner
2022-08-06 23:44:03 +0000 <monochrom> No. As long as all OSes are written in C, C will not go extinct. The standard OS course must still use C.
2022-08-06 23:44:51 +0000 <monochrom> Show me an OS written in Rust or C++ or Go, and maybe you will have marginally a case of using it for an OS course.
2022-08-06 23:45:05 +0000 <erisco> Chrome OS
2022-08-06 23:45:15 +0000 <monochrom> Until then your anti-C ideology does not matter.
2022-08-06 23:45:45 +0000 <erisco> apparently is Linux-based... that was my best shot
2022-08-06 23:45:49 +0000 <monochrom> And I don't see why "breakthrough" is relevant.
2022-08-06 23:46:32 +0000 <monochrom> Undergrad curricula are not about teaching breakthroughs in the first place.
2022-08-06 23:46:56 +0000 <monochrom> Binary search trees are no longer a breakthrough, that's why it's taught. Similarly for C.
2022-08-06 23:47:19 +0000 <monochrom> If anything it's the real breakthroughs such as Clojure or Lean that is not taught.
2022-08-06 23:47:52 +0000 <monochrom> Or the polynomial-time primality algorithm.
2022-08-06 23:48:43 +0000 <qrpnxz> well, ocaml does have a "app as operating system" thing, which is pretty bloody sick actually, but idk how that's entirely relevant to your point mono :)
2022-08-06 23:50:18 +0000kyborg2011(~kyborg201@host-176-36-215-61.b024.la.net.ua) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-08-06 23:50:33 +0000 <monochrom> I teach a Unix course and I have a lot of ideological friends who are fascinated by C++ or Rust and ask me why I am still sticking to C in that course.
2022-08-06 23:50:38 +0000 <erisco> I don't know if an OS course needs to be mandatory
2022-08-06 23:50:39 +0000 <monochrom> Dude, it's a Unix course.
2022-08-06 23:50:39 +0000kyborg2011(~kyborg201@host-176-36-215-61.b024.la.net.ua)
2022-08-06 23:51:46 +0000 <erisco> and I know some profs teach based on what they personally find cool
2022-08-06 23:51:54 +0000 <qrpnxz> Unix course should be mandatory imo
2022-08-06 23:52:17 +0000 <qrpnxz> where unix means linux of course, but if you stick to posix i'm ok too
2022-08-06 23:52:18 +0000 <erisco> so, that is why I think, over time, as profs contemporary with the advent and rise of C retire, that particular bias will diminish
2022-08-06 23:53:02 +0000jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d46bad.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-08-06 23:53:33 +0000kyborg2011(~kyborg201@host-176-36-215-61.b024.la.net.ua) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-08-06 23:53:58 +0000 <erisco> I think C is Crappy compared to some more modern languages
2022-08-06 23:53:59 +0000 <qrpnxz> if there are no more unix profs left, we are in dire straits
2022-08-06 23:54:04 +0000 <monochrom> If it's any consolation for you, in an alternate universe where Unix loses to the Mac Classic, their MacOS course uses Pascal, because that's how you make MacOS syscalls there.
2022-08-06 23:54:40 +0000kyborg2011(~kyborg201@host-176-36-215-61.b024.la.net.ua)
2022-08-06 23:54:44 +0000 <geekosaur> or original windows
2022-08-06 23:55:08 +0000 <qrpnxz> idk much about pascal except it's about same level as C and that it does some possibly cringy call by name, but really i'm ignorant
2022-08-06 23:55:12 +0000 <geekosaur> C API for syscalls dodn't come along until win32
2022-08-06 23:55:48 +0000 <monochrom> Algol had call by name, Pascal doesn't.
2022-08-06 23:56:14 +0000 <monochrom> Pascal has call by reference. But C++ does too. And less cringy than C's "pass me your pointer".
2022-08-06 23:58:28 +0000 <monochrom> If you want to make C irrelevant, you must first make Unix irrelevant.
2022-08-06 23:58:35 +0000 <monochrom> But good luck with that.
2022-08-06 23:58:51 +0000 <erisco> I already think it can be made irrelevant
2022-08-06 23:59:14 +0000 <monochrom> Seeing that no data centre runs PalmOS or something.
2022-08-06 23:59:26 +0000kyborg2011(~kyborg201@host-176-36-215-61.b024.la.net.ua) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-08-06 23:59:56 +0000 <geekosaur> even Microsoft failed to make Unix irrelevant
2022-08-06 23:59:58 +0000 <erisco> OSes are a specialisation... once upon a time, they were an intimate partner for any programming activity