IRCBrowse

2022/07/28

2022-07-28 00:01:36 +0200 <qrpnxz> if you don't need the result of the replicate (i.e. you do replicateM_) i think you don't need the codensity it looks like.
2022-07-28 00:01:49 +0200 <qrpnxz> which makes sense
2022-07-28 00:02:58 +0200 <monochrom> I heard that free monads also have that. The ADT version Free vs the CPS version F
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2022-07-28 00:06:51 +0200 <qrpnxz> indeed Stream is a free monad i believe, and Pipes's Proxy is equivalent to Stream with a particular Functor
2022-07-28 00:07:44 +0200Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17)
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2022-07-28 01:18:09 +0200enemeth79(uid309041@id-309041.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-07-28 01:18:36 +0200 <Haskelytic> when you say some function `f x y = ...` is strict in its first argument, does that mean, for example, that if `x :: [Int]` that `f` would evaluate `x` up to `[_, _, _]` or is it `[1,2,3]` where the list members themselves are fully evaluated?
2022-07-28 01:19:01 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 01:19:46 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-170-66-70.range86-170.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 01:20:28 +0200 <hpc> (f x = ...) is strict in x iff f bottom = bottom
2022-07-28 01:20:54 +0200 <hpc> or in more practical terms, it would mean x is evaluated up to being either bottom, [], or _:_
2022-07-28 01:21:58 +0200 <hpc> extending it to (f x y = ...), the things to google are weak head normal form and head normal form
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2022-07-28 01:22:14 +0200 <hpc> but in practical terms it means the same thing, just with extra parameters
2022-07-28 01:22:19 +0200 <Haskelytic> hpc: thanks!
2022-07-28 01:22:31 +0200 <Haskelytic> yeah that extra `y` wasn't relevant lol
2022-07-28 01:22:37 +0200 <hpc> heh
2022-07-28 01:23:09 +0200 <hpc> you should look those up anyway, it's good vocabulary to know when you encounter other stuff that deals with laziness and evaluation
2022-07-28 01:23:11 +0200 <Haskelytic> you could say I was being lazy :)
2022-07-28 01:23:31 +0200 <hpc> like if you ever see code using the "rnf" function, that stands for "reduce to normal form"
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2022-07-28 02:37:21 +0200 <hasbae> im trying to grok the difference between stack and cabal. I *think* cabal is mostly analagous to make, it's for building targets and specifying target dependencies. Stack is close to apt-get, helps download and manage dependencies, plus convenience things like running the project and setup.
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2022-07-28 02:37:51 +0200 <hasbae> is that close to reasonably correct?
2022-07-28 02:37:56 +0200 <Axman6> not really
2022-07-28 02:38:24 +0200 <Axman6> Cabal can do basically everything Stack can these days, other than providing LTS snapshots (which IIRC you can grab the cabal lock files and get the same thing)
2022-07-28 02:38:52 +0200 <Axman6> Personally I don't see any need to use stack these days, it's less compatible, missing features that cabal supports
2022-07-28 02:39:20 +0200 <yushyin> https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07 also this
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2022-07-28 02:41:17 +0200 <Axman6> we need a cabal holy trinity meme a la https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/786h5w/the_father_the_son_and_the_holy_spirit/
2022-07-28 02:41:20 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-184-129-206.range86-184.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 02:42:13 +0200 <sclv> lol. cabal the library is not cabal-install the executable is not cabal the file format ALL ARE cabal the common architecture for building applications and libraries
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2022-07-28 02:43:12 +0200 <Axman6> :cheff-kiss:
2022-07-28 02:43:12 +0200 <hasbae> so cabal is almost as overloaded as nix
2022-07-28 02:43:15 +0200 <Axman6> chef*
2022-07-28 02:43:29 +0200 <hasbae> yushyin: thanks for the link, that is helpful
2022-07-28 02:44:00 +0200 <hasbae> Axman6: thanks for the perspective
2022-07-28 02:47:42 +0200 <Axman6> basically, if you use cabal, it will work with everything, if you use stack, it may work with cabal but might come at the cost of not being able to use newer GHC features
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2022-07-28 03:17:21 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-163-164-140.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:21:04 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 03:21:06 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-151-44-188.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 03:21:26 +0200haritz(~hrtz@82-69-11-11.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk)
2022-07-28 03:21:27 +0200haritz(~hrtz@82-69-11-11.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) (Changing host)
2022-07-28 03:21:27 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz)
2022-07-28 03:24:07 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@host86-151-44-188.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:25:07 +0200tstat(~user@user/tstat)
2022-07-28 03:25:35 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:32:37 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-151-44-188.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 03:34:45 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-151-44-188.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:36:04 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a1b3:d33d:90f:3255:af90) (Quit: king_gs)
2022-07-28 03:36:19 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@187.201.95.222)
2022-07-28 03:38:27 +0200naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au)
2022-07-28 03:39:17 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2022-07-28 03:39:23 +0200ober(~ober@c-24-61-81-45.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-07-28 03:39:38 +0200nunggu(~q@user/nunggu) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:39:58 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
2022-07-28 03:39:58 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-07-28 03:39:58 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-07-28 03:40:18 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@host86-149-51-21.range86-149.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 03:41:23 +0200Guest3(~textual@223.15.195.173.client.static.strong-in52.as13926.net) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-28 03:41:24 +0200nunggu(~q@user/nunggu)
2022-07-28 03:42:11 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 03:42:27 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-151-44-188.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:42:47 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-07-28 03:45:37 +0200naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:45:45 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:46:54 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-86-154.abhsia.telus.net)
2022-07-28 03:49:53 +0200Guest3(~textual@222.15.195.173.client.static.strong-in52.as13926.net)
2022-07-28 03:54:13 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 03:56:17 +0200juri_(~juri@84-19-175-179.pool.ovpn.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 03:58:26 +0200Guest3(~textual@222.15.195.173.client.static.strong-in52.as13926.net) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-28 03:58:47 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:02:57 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2022-07-28 04:03:02 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:03:02 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:03:02 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:03:02 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 04:03:02 +0200nunggu(~q@user/nunggu) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 04:03:02 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:03:34 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
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2022-07-28 04:03:35 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2022-07-28 04:03:37 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2022-07-28 04:03:46 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-07-28 04:03:50 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-07-28 04:06:17 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:11:19 +0200Katarushisu4(~Katarushi@cpc147790-finc20-2-0-cust502.4-2.cable.virginm.net)
2022-07-28 04:11:32 +0200juri_(~juri@79.140.114.82)
2022-07-28 04:12:08 +0200sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:12:31 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@ad003234.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:12:51 +0200Katarushisu(~Katarushi@cpc147334-finc20-2-0-cust27.4-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:12:51 +0200Katarushisu4Katarushisu
2022-07-28 04:14:10 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:14:44 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-07-28 04:15:44 +0200liz(~liz@host86-159-158-175.range86-159.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 04:15:44 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@187.201.95.222) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 04:16:09 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-07-28 04:17:04 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a1b3:d33d:90f:3255:af90)
2022-07-28 04:18:13 +0200Guest3(~textual@222.15.195.173.client.static.strong-in52.as13926.net)
2022-07-28 04:19:39 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:22:39 +0200tstat(~user@user/tstat) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:23:06 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:23:20 +0200Guest3(~textual@222.15.195.173.client.static.strong-in52.as13926.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:23:29 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-07-28 04:24:50 +0200Guest3(~textual@pool-100-11-18-203.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2022-07-28 04:25:52 +0200Guest3(~textual@pool-100-11-18-203.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Client Quit)
2022-07-28 04:25:53 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@ae133242.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
2022-07-28 04:25:55 +0200tdammers(~tdammers@77.109.72.118.res.static.edpnet.net)
2022-07-28 04:25:59 +0200use-value(~Thunderbi@2a00:23c6:8a03:2f01:2cec:3cb3:dd6:44cd) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:26:20 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 04:29:09 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2022-07-28 04:29:42 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-07-28 04:30:52 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:31:13 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@ae133242.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:33:08 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:f2c8:df52:4c4b:1c78)
2022-07-28 04:34:23 +0200tremon(~tremon@83-84-18-241.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: getting boxed in)
2022-07-28 04:36:31 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-07-28 04:37:03 +0200nunggu(~q@user/nunggu)
2022-07-28 04:43:16 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-07-28 04:44:16 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 04:44:28 +0200pierrot(~pi@user/pierrot) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - http://znc.in)
2022-07-28 04:44:33 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-07-28 04:45:05 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2022-07-28 04:46:01 +0200pierrot(~pi@user/pierrot)
2022-07-28 04:48:00 +0200td_(~td@muedsl-82-207-238-210.citykom.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:49:23 +0200td_(~td@muedsl-82-207-238-045.citykom.de)
2022-07-28 04:50:44 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-07-28 04:54:40 +0200Guest3(~textual@pool-100-11-18-203.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2022-07-28 04:58:33 +0200morrow(~user@31.168.110.106) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 05:00:33 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 05:03:50 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a1b3:d33d:90f:3255:af90) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-28 05:03:54 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::909a)
2022-07-28 05:05:16 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 05:09:55 +0200Guest3(~textual@pool-100-11-18-203.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 05:11:16 +0200jargon(~jargon@184.101.188.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 05:14:06 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 05:19:12 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-86-154.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 05:20:41 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 05:21:01 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10)
2022-07-28 05:25:41 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 05:26:43 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10)
2022-07-28 05:27:24 +0200lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-07-28 05:28:19 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-07-28 05:29:13 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@host86-149-51-21.range86-149.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 05:29:36 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@host86-149-51-21.range86-149.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 05:30:12 +0200winny_(~weechat@user/winny) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 05:30:35 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn)
2022-07-28 05:31:10 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 05:31:11 +0200winny_(~weechat@user/winny)
2022-07-28 05:32:28 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10)
2022-07-28 05:34:50 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 05:35:07 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-177-125-79.range86-177.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 05:37:35 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@host86-149-51-21.range86-149.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 05:39:48 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 05:43:27 +0200juri_(~juri@79.140.114.82) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 05:43:59 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 05:44:37 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-07-28 05:46:12 +0200juri_(~juri@79.140.114.82)
2022-07-28 05:48:01 +0200juri_(~juri@79.140.114.82) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 05:50:34 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-07-28 05:51:31 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 05:53:06 +0200juri_(~juri@84-19-175-179.pool.ovpn.com)
2022-07-28 05:55:18 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:01:28 +0200nunggu(~q@user/nunggu) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:03:10 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-07-28 06:04:15 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-07-28 06:06:40 +0200azimut_(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-07-28 06:07:01 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:07:19 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 06:07:31 +0200califax_(~califax@user/califx)
2022-07-28 06:07:38 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:08:44 +0200califax_califax
2022-07-28 06:08:52 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:09:22 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-07-28 06:09:24 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 06:12:29 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:12:35 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-07-28 06:12:43 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-07-28 06:13:48 +0200nunggu(~q@user/nunggu) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:16:44 +0200nunggu(~q@user/nunggu)
2022-07-28 06:17:45 +0200 <qrpnxz> getting terrible performance trying to do a (mapsM f . chunksOf n) on a stream. Haven't figured out exactly why but if i chunk and reduce it by hand things become sane again.
2022-07-28 06:22:17 +0200winny_(~weechat@user/winny) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 06:22:26 +0200 <qrpnxz> in particular the memory use is absolute poo poo
2022-07-28 06:22:50 +0200 <qrpnxz> i think it may even be exponential. really bad
2022-07-28 06:22:58 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:24:05 +0200winny_(~weechat@user/winny)
2022-07-28 06:24:07 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10)
2022-07-28 06:25:58 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:31:15 +0200nunggu(~q@user/nunggu) (Quit: nunggu)
2022-07-28 06:36:42 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:38:18 +0200 <qrpnxz> splitsAt on the other hand works awesome
2022-07-28 06:41:06 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 06:47:15 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 06:47:24 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 06:48:17 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10)
2022-07-28 06:48:24 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2022-07-28 06:56:02 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Quit: quit)
2022-07-28 06:56:59 +0200Techcable(~Techcable@user/Techcable) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 06:59:04 +0200Techcable(~Techcable@user/Techcable)
2022-07-28 07:00:01 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2022-07-28 07:01:41 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 07:01:43 +0200Techcable(~Techcable@user/Techcable) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 07:01:52 +0200Techcable(~Techcable@user/Techcable)
2022-07-28 07:04:22 +0200use-value(~Thunderbi@2a00:23c6:8a03:2f01:2cec:3cb3:dd6:44cd)
2022-07-28 07:05:52 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 07:08:10 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 07:09:13 +0200winny_winny_please_hel
2022-07-28 07:09:37 +0200winny_please_helwinny_tor_dc_grr
2022-07-28 07:10:57 +0200winny_tor_dc_grr(~weechat@user/winny) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 07:11:28 +0200winny_tor_dc_grr(~weechat@user/winny)
2022-07-28 07:11:39 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-07-28 07:21:36 +0200 <qrpnxz> i cracked the code
2022-07-28 07:21:38 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 07:23:03 +0200 <qrpnxz> Stream Step is strict on the functor. If you build the stream from S.each (or just via forever or simple loop like that) then there's not enough laziness. If you use repeats or cycles, that will add a dummy sure Effect that does nothing. Effect is not struct on the monad. Result is that it behaves sanely!
2022-07-28 07:23:05 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-07-28 07:23:18 +0200 <qrpnxz> s/sure/pure
2022-07-28 07:23:26 +0200 <qrpnxz> s/struct/strict
2022-07-28 07:23:31 +0200liz(~liz@host86-159-158-175.range86-159.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2022-07-28 07:23:46 +0200alp_(~alp@user/alp)
2022-07-28 07:24:54 +0200 <qrpnxz> manual chunk is now only twice as fast, my guess is because it literally traverses half the number of constructors!
2022-07-28 07:28:22 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 07:29:50 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10)
2022-07-28 07:30:27 +0200alp_(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-28 07:34:19 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 07:36:35 +0200zaquest(~notzaques@5.130.79.72) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 07:37:48 +0200zaquest(~notzaques@5.130.79.72)
2022-07-28 07:38:57 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 07:39:19 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 07:40:03 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10)
2022-07-28 07:40:54 +0200Kaipei(~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253)
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2022-07-28 08:13:06 +0200 <Haskelytic> quick jargon check: when they say polymorphic type, they mean something like `Maybe a` implicitly quantified over all types `a` whereas monomorphic type means something like `[Int]` where there are no type variables, only a type of kind `*`
2022-07-28 08:13:17 +0200 <Haskelytic> is my understanding correct here?
2022-07-28 08:14:22 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95)
2022-07-28 08:14:24 +0200 <c_wraith> Usually yes.
2022-07-28 08:14:51 +0200 <c_wraith> But as with most words, "polymorphic" can have slightly different meanings in more precise contexts.
2022-07-28 08:15:30 +0200tomekgrzesiak(~tomekgrze@109-206-198-75.host.skynet.net.pl)
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2022-07-28 08:20:35 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc00:5a00:8d6e:98d7:e6d8:2a33)
2022-07-28 08:23:42 +0200 <Haskelytic> there seems to be a notion of polymorphism over type constructors, which I assume means something like `f Int` for all `f`
2022-07-28 08:24:25 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.192.47.10) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 08:24:55 +0200 <c_wraith> type constructors are just more types.
2022-07-28 08:25:16 +0200 <c_wraith> types that aren't inhabited, but still types
2022-07-28 08:25:29 +0200 <Haskelytic> hmm...i saw that used in this paper https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.121.9744&rep=rep1&type=pdf
2022-07-28 08:25:39 +0200 <Haskelytic> the author maintained a separation between types/type cons
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2022-07-28 08:26:16 +0200 <Haskelytic> c_wraith: so basically `Maybe` is a type, just one that is not inhabited by any values?
2022-07-28 08:26:25 +0200 <Haskelytic> is that what you meant?
2022-07-28 08:26:28 +0200 <c_wraith> yes
2022-07-28 08:26:42 +0200 <Haskelytic> ah, I see. thanks for the clarification
2022-07-28 08:27:07 +0200 <c_wraith> that view explains why you can be polymorphic over type constructors - they don't get special treatment
2022-07-28 08:27:54 +0200 <Haskelytic> right...so basically something like `(>>=)` would be an example of being polymorphic over typecons?
2022-07-28 08:28:02 +0200 <c_wraith> yes
2022-07-28 08:28:21 +0200 <Haskelytic> nice nice...it's all clicking now :)
2022-07-28 08:29:30 +0200 <c_wraith> you might run into some papers that use the terms "polytype" or "polytypic". This refers specifically to when something has different implementations for each type instantiation
2022-07-28 08:29:56 +0200Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-07-28 08:29:58 +0200 <c_wraith> so like.. (>>=) is polytypic in m, but polymorphic in a and b
2022-07-28 08:30:47 +0200 <c_wraith> it's not something you'll see very often, but there is a minor difference there.
2022-07-28 08:31:00 +0200 <c_wraith> Sometimes you'll want to talk about that difference
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2022-07-28 09:30:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> c_wraith: also called "parametric polymorphism" (polymorphic) and "ad-hoc polymorphism" (polytypic), right? Or am I mixing up things?
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2022-07-28 09:35:02 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-5.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2022-07-28 09:35:18 +0200 <retropikzel> I see many haskell web framework havent been updated in a while, is it because with haskell you get to some point when things are pretty much just done?
2022-07-28 09:35:43 +0200 <retropikzel> havent been updated in a while meaning some seem abandoned
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2022-07-28 09:38:56 +0200 <Axman6> which frameworks?
2022-07-28 09:39:46 +0200 <qrpnxz> tomsmeding: i believe a distinction is made. Parametric polymorphism is like id :: a -> a, ad-hoc is with type classes
2022-07-28 09:40:34 +0200MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-167-213.wlan.tudelft.nl)
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2022-07-28 09:40:59 +0200 <qrpnxz> well, i think that's what you meant so nvm
2022-07-28 09:41:28 +0200 <retropikzel> Axman6, for example Spock, github shows activity but latest release was 2017. I mean it good that thinks dont update every week but am I right to suspect that its because there is no need for updates in many cases?
2022-07-28 09:41:43 +0200 <retropikzel> *it's good that things
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2022-07-28 09:44:38 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@host213-122-124-201.range213-122.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 09:45:30 +0200 <qrpnxz> the amount of updates i expect depend on the nature of the project, the size of the user base. To determine if a project is abandoned or at least not much maintained i look at something else. Namely the tracked issues, if they are serious or not, if the supposed mantainers are commenting on them, if PRs are getting looked at and merged. I think these paint a more useful picture.
2022-07-28 09:46:50 +0200use-value(~Thunderbi@2a00:23c6:8a03:2f01:2cec:3cb3:dd6:44cd) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2022-07-28 09:49:10 +0200 <retropikzel> Maybe I should put my question in another way, if I see say 10 year old code and it works for me and compiles. Should I be worrited that it stops working at some point? In javascript world if code is 2 secodns old its already unusable(joke) but in common lisp world I see code that is 15 years old and its fine
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2022-07-28 10:07:37 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele)
2022-07-28 10:08:04 +0200 <qrpnxz> well again it depends the nature of the project. Something need to be updated pretty often, other things not. Non-specific answer for non-specific question. 10-15 years is starting to be quite a while, I could definitely see various things being deprecated in that time frame, so if it doesn't have a maintainer, not working anymore in the future may be a problem, but again it just depend on a lot
2022-07-28 10:08:06 +0200 <qrpnxz> of things.
2022-07-28 10:10:05 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:9433:a300:ada9:d25f:5ab0:f8a9)
2022-07-28 10:11:21 +0200enemeth79(uid309041@id-309041.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-07-28 10:12:59 +0200 <lortabac> retropikzel: I personally avoid packages that are not maintained, the Haskell ecosystem is not as stable as Common Lisp
2022-07-28 10:16:11 +0200benin01(~benin@2401:4900:2320:8d1e:64fa:951e:c1ff:936a)
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2022-07-28 10:18:08 +0200 <jackdk> The more polymorphic code is, the less likely it will need regular revision
2022-07-28 10:18:23 +0200 <jackdk> something like monad-loops or hoist-error is pretty well "done" at this point
2022-07-28 10:20:16 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79)
2022-07-28 10:20:56 +0200 <retropikzel> Thanks, I think I'll learn for example yesod then instead of spock or scotty. It seems more complicated but in the long run I propably dont have to learn another framework or rewrite much code
2022-07-28 10:21:59 +0200 <lortabac> I see recent commits on scotty
2022-07-28 10:22:52 +0200 <lortabac> same for Spock, even though the activity seems slower
2022-07-28 10:23:56 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 10:24:05 +0200 <sm> " if I see say 10 year old code and it works for me and compiles" - never happens in Haskell :)
2022-07-28 10:24:10 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 10:24:16 +0200 <lortabac> I'd say yesod, scotty and servant are all safe choices
2022-07-28 10:24:26 +0200 <sm> +1 for learning yesod
2022-07-28 10:24:27 +0200 <retropikzel> I wouldnt say they look bad, but yesod looks better: scotty version 0.12.0, 45 contributors last release two years ago, yesod version 1.6.24.0, 450 contributors last release 8 days ago
2022-07-28 10:25:52 +0200 <Rembane> Maybe scotty is done?
2022-07-28 10:26:30 +0200 <retropikzel> Version number suggests otherwise :/
2022-07-28 10:26:31 +0200dextaa(~DV@user/dextaa) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 10:26:45 +0200 <lortabac> scotty is much simpler than yesod, so it might be kind of "done", and only need version bumps and small changes
2022-07-28 10:26:48 +0200 <sm> yesod is the most (only) active general haskell web framework. Servant is also popular but more specialised and harder. All the smaller frameworks are less featureful
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2022-07-28 10:41:14 +0200 <jackdk> retropikzel: haskell uses the package versioning policy, not semver, so a 0.x.y.z number is not inherently untrustworthy
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2022-07-28 10:45:13 +0200 <merijn> @where pvp
2022-07-28 10:45:13 +0200 <lambdabot> https://pvp.haskell.org/
2022-07-28 10:45:27 +0200 <merijn> Including handy flowchart
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2022-07-28 11:04:35 +0200 <retropikzel> jackdk, good to know
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2022-07-28 13:07:44 +0200Sciencentistguy(~sciencent@hacksoc/ordinary-member)
2022-07-28 13:09:23 +0200 <slack1256> I got a memory leak and my heap is dominated by PINNED values. Obviously these are bytestrings or text, but I use them in lots of places. The `-hc` flag on the RTS does not tell more info apart from telling it is PINNED. What could I do to diagnose it?
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2022-07-28 14:07:46 +0200jumper149(~jumper149@base.felixspringer.xyz)
2022-07-28 14:08:40 +0200 <geekosaur> what ghc version? I think better diagnostics for PINNED values were added to some 9.2.x version (try 9.2.3 or 9.2.4)
2022-07-28 14:08:58 +0200 <geekosaur> also text doesn't used pinned memory, only ByteString
2022-07-28 14:17:31 +0200 <albet70> zip <*> tail = \x -> zip x $ tail x
2022-07-28 14:17:48 +0200 <albet70> what's the (>>=) for Reader?
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2022-07-28 14:39:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> slack1256: are you taking huge bytestrings, slicing out a small portion of them, and keeping around only the small portion?
2022-07-28 14:40:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> If so, `copy` might be worth looking at
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2022-07-28 14:47:07 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-28 14:47:21 +0200 <jackdk> :t (>>=)
2022-07-28 14:47:23 +0200 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
2022-07-28 14:47:38 +0200 <jackdk> you have `instance Monad ((->) r)`, so substitute that in for `m` and rearrange
2022-07-28 14:48:29 +0200 <jackdk> `((->) r a) -> (a -> ((->) r b) -> ((->) r) b` => `(r -> a) -> (a -> r -> b) -> r -> b` => There is exactly one sensible function with this type
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2022-07-28 14:49:47 +0200benin07(~benin@183.82.26.87)
2022-07-28 14:51:16 +0200 <albet70> which function?
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2022-07-28 14:59:17 +0200retropikzel(9d1a4f9f46@2604:bf00:561:2000::ce) ()
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2022-07-28 15:03:50 +0200sandy_doo(~sandydoo@185.115.6.24)
2022-07-28 15:04:34 +0200 <jackdk> it doesn't matter what you call it, there can be only one
2022-07-28 15:04:49 +0200 <jackdk> @djinn (r -> a) -> (a -> r -> b) -> r -> b
2022-07-28 15:04:49 +0200 <lambdabot> f a b c = b (a c) c
2022-07-28 15:05:14 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 15:05:44 +0200 <hasbae> is that one of the bird combinators?
2022-07-28 15:05:55 +0200sandydoo(~sandydoo@138.199.6.214) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 15:06:04 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-07-28 15:06:43 +0200 <jackdk> It's >>= for the "reader monad" aka "function" aka `(->) r` instance
2022-07-28 15:10:00 +0200naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au)
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2022-07-28 15:17:05 +0200 <slack1256> tomsmeding: The producer of these bytestring is an underlying library. I do source access to it. The main difficulty is knowing on which cost-center are these PINNED values allocated on an unfamiliar code base.
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2022-07-28 15:23:20 +0200 <albet70> jackdk, <*> zip tail x = zip x (tail x); <*> a b c = a c (b c); >>= a b c = b (a c) c; could <*> and >>= be in an relation?
2022-07-28 15:23:40 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-07-28 15:25:00 +0200 <geekosaur> take a look at ap
2022-07-28 15:25:08 +0200 <geekosaur> @src ap
2022-07-28 15:25:08 +0200 <lambdabot> ap = liftM2 id
2022-07-28 15:25:24 +0200 <geekosaur> @src liftM2
2022-07-28 15:25:24 +0200 <lambdabot> liftM2 f m1 m2 = do
2022-07-28 15:25:24 +0200 <lambdabot> x1 <- m1
2022-07-28 15:25:24 +0200 <lambdabot> x2 <- m2
2022-07-28 15:25:24 +0200 <lambdabot> return (f x1 x2)
2022-07-28 15:26:31 +0200 <geekosaur> Applicative didn't exist back then, so we did it with Monad
2022-07-28 15:30:39 +0200 <albet70> I don't get it
2022-07-28 15:30:52 +0200 <albet70> what mean didn't exist
2022-07-28 15:31:55 +0200 <albet70> liftM2 is fmap a binary on two m a
2022-07-28 15:32:48 +0200joo-__(~joo-_@172-105-65-159.ip.linodeusercontent.com)
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2022-07-28 15:35:44 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-07-28 15:36:24 +0200 <jackdk> `(<*>) @((->) r) :: ((->) r (a -> b) -> ((->) r) a -> ((->) r) b` => `(r -> a -> b) -> (r -> a) -> r -> b`; seems like you move between that and >>= _for this monad only_ because everything is `->`
2022-07-28 15:37:02 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-07-28 15:39:18 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2022-07-28 15:40:40 +0200 <geekosaur> liftM2 is noiw liftA2, ap is now <*>, etc.
2022-07-28 15:40:51 +0200 <geekosaur> we did not have `class Applicative` originally
2022-07-28 15:41:31 +0200 <geekosaur> (and we didn't have Functor as a prerequisite for Monad, so liftM reconstructed fmap from >>😃
2022-07-28 15:41:35 +0200 <geekosaur> gah
2022-07-28 15:41:38 +0200 <geekosaur> (and we didn't have Functor as a prerequisite for Monad, so liftM reconstructed fmap from >>= )
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2022-07-28 15:53:25 +0200 <c_wraith> tomsmeding: actually, polytypic and ad-hoc are slightly different things. polytypic refers to the more narrow case of a definition having multiple instantiations. But it's not a transitive property. So like (+) is polytypic because it has a different definition at each type, but x = 1 + 1 is not. It has the same definition at each type, even if one of the components is polytypic. It's about whether you can write a uniform definition for something across
2022-07-28 15:53:26 +0200 <c_wraith> all ad-hoc instances, or whether you need to write each type's version of that definition separately.
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2022-07-28 15:55:41 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-07-28 16:02:02 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2022-07-28 16:10:12 +0200 <albet70> I wonder when Cont expressed by (->) r, what they mean
2022-07-28 16:10:13 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-07-28 16:15:32 +0200 <int-e> Hmm, that seems odd (why is r the first argument here? That's Reader...) But they could mean working with functions of type (a -> r) -> r instead of the Cont r a newtype?
2022-07-28 16:15:59 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-28 16:16:20 +0200 <albet70> Cont f >>= g = \ar -> f (\a -> g a ar)
2022-07-28 16:16:39 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2022-07-28 17:24:58 +0200naso(~naso@193-116-244-197.tpgi.com.au) ()
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2022-07-28 18:03:38 +0200 <zebrag> What is "free" for in "free algebras"? "Its left adjoint is then called free, because it freely ad-libs the forgotten information" ([cite:@milewskiFreydAdjointFunctor2020]) Is the view above "generally accepted to some point"? Can we embed "free variables" in this "freeness" setting?
2022-07-28 18:03:56 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-171-59-23.range86-171.btcentralplus.com)
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2022-07-28 18:04:56 +0200 <c_wraith> free means a lot of different things. I doubt you can connect all of them into an especially coherent picture.
2022-07-28 18:05:12 +0200 <zebrag> I'm troubled because when we speak of free variables, they are not free at all. It seems to me that in many circumstances they are even more constrained than bound variables
2022-07-28 18:05:27 +0200 <zebrag> c_wraith: Oh, okay
2022-07-28 18:05:39 +0200 <c_wraith> heck, "free" doesn't even mean exactly the same thing in the phrases "free monoid" and "free monad"
2022-07-28 18:06:41 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-171-59-23.range86-171.btcentralplus.com)
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2022-07-28 18:09:16 +0200 <zebrag> About those two later instances, they seem related to me. With a free monoid you can perform any reduction you want. And similarly with free monad
2022-07-28 18:09:25 +0200 <zebrag> but free variables miust be out of that scope
2022-07-28 18:09:55 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a1b3:f2e8:e66c:24a2:a2e8)
2022-07-28 18:10:21 +0200 <zebrag> is there a famous paper on the use of word "free" in math?
2022-07-28 18:10:49 +0200 <c_wraith> that's actually what's different between a free monoid and a free monad. A free monoid can do any monoidal reduction. A free monad can't.
2022-07-28 18:11:12 +0200 <c_wraith> Famously, you can't embed continuations in a free monad.
2022-07-28 18:11:58 +0200 <zebrag> I'll look into that later point that seems fun
2022-07-28 18:12:13 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 18:12:48 +0200 <zebrag> "I'm not a number I'm a free variable" https://twitter.com/kmett/status/1532179249095970816
2022-07-28 18:15:09 +0200 <younder> Pretty much.. Free means unbound.
2022-07-28 18:15:20 +0200finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-07-28 18:15:20 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
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2022-07-28 18:15:56 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-07-28 18:16:03 +0200 <c_wraith> free variables are definitely a can of worms. There are contexts where free variables are only fictions of analysis. "x is free in the definition of g, but g is part of the definition of f which does bind x"
2022-07-28 18:16:50 +0200 <zebrag> Maybe on the one hand you have freeness as being able to do whatever you want, when in the other hand you have freeness as out of jail card (can't be captured)
2022-07-28 18:16:54 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 18:16:58 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 18:17:08 +0200 <zebrag> can of worms: I concur
2022-07-28 18:17:09 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 18:17:11 +0200 <c_wraith> There are other contexts where free variables really can exist, but they're much less likely to be programming languages.
2022-07-28 18:18:01 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2022-07-28 18:18:03 +0200 <younder> More like a free variable need a bunch of constraints to be satisied before being bound.
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2022-07-28 18:20:19 +0200 <c_wraith> (programming languages tend to frown on truly unbound variables)
2022-07-28 18:21:17 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 18:21:42 +0200 <c_wraith> > foo + 1
2022-07-28 18:21:44 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2022-07-28 18:21:44 +0200 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: foo
2022-07-28 18:21:44 +0200 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘for’ (imported from Data.Traversable)
2022-07-28 18:21:51 +0200 <c_wraith> but it's free!
2022-07-28 18:22:14 +0200 <younder> Well the general rule is to define a varaibe only when you have something to assign to it. (If the language allows it)
2022-07-28 18:22:25 +0200 <zebrag> c_wraith: yes, being free for a variable depends on which part of the lambda-expression you are considering, and when you see them as "free", it's because their constraints are hidden in the environment/context. So not so free in that matter.
2022-07-28 18:22:43 +0200 <zebrag> and "programming languages tend to frown on truly unbound variables"
2022-07-28 18:22:50 +0200 <hasbae> is it correct to say that Base is a package, and that Prelude is one of the modules in the Base package?
2022-07-28 18:23:00 +0200 <merijn> hasbae: Yes
2022-07-28 18:23:02 +0200 <c_wraith> hasbae: yes, though the package name is all lowercase
2022-07-28 18:23:50 +0200dknite(~dknite@94.198.43.71) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-28 18:23:51 +0200 <zebrag> c_wraith: thanks for sharing your pov on the free variables thing
2022-07-28 18:24:23 +0200 <hasbae> and Prelude is implicitly imported... does base have any kind of special treatment different than some other package?
2022-07-28 18:25:08 +0200 <geekosaur> base is very different, it's hardwired into the compiler
2022-07-28 18:25:08 +0200 <c_wraith> base has a few special things in it. First and foremost, it's wired in to GHC - you can't change versions of base without changing versions of GHC
2022-07-28 18:25:25 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-07-28 18:25:55 +0200 <c_wraith> base also has some placeholder definitions in it that are there only to provide documentation stubs for things truly built into the compiler, like the (->) type
2022-07-28 18:26:04 +0200dknite(~dknite@49.37.45.188)
2022-07-28 18:26:11 +0200 <c_wraith> No other package gets to do that. :)
2022-07-28 18:26:33 +0200 <hasbae> is base statically compiled into ghc?
2022-07-28 18:26:56 +0200mbuf(~Shakthi@122.165.55.71) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-07-28 18:26:57 +0200 <geekosaur> by default, yes
2022-07-28 18:27:03 +0200 <c_wraith> that question can be interpreted in several ways.
2022-07-28 18:27:10 +0200 <c_wraith> It might be worth clarifying.
2022-07-28 18:27:40 +0200 <c_wraith> like.. ghc is a haskell program, usually compiled by a previous version of ghc. When it does that, it statically links in definitions from base.
2022-07-28 18:27:46 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 18:28:11 +0200 <c_wraith> At the same time, the base library is a separate set of files from the ghc binary in an installation of ghc.
2022-07-28 18:28:52 +0200 <hasbae> here it says https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base "contains a large of collection of useful libraries", so I'm wondering if the use of library means a compiled piece of code that is linked into ghc.
2022-07-28 18:29:18 +0200 <c_wraith> your terminology is ambiguous again
2022-07-28 18:29:28 +0200 <c_wraith> only the things ghc uses are linked into ghc.
2022-07-28 18:29:30 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-28 18:29:43 +0200 <younder> ?
2022-07-28 18:29:50 +0200 <c_wraith> but ghc is hard-wired to use a specific version of base
2022-07-28 18:30:41 +0200 <c_wraith> the problem is the ambiguity of the word "link".
2022-07-28 18:30:41 +0200 <hasbae> what part of my terminology is ambiguous?
2022-07-28 18:31:16 +0200 <c_wraith> "linking" is a very specific part of compilation, in which units which have been compiled separately are combined together into an executable or library.
2022-07-28 18:31:20 +0200zxx7529(~Thunderbi@user/zxx7529) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-07-28 18:31:57 +0200 <hasbae> yeah, that's what I mean. What other interpretation do you have?
2022-07-28 18:31:58 +0200 <c_wraith> But you can also say "a specific version of ghc is linked to a specific version of base" using a more colloquial definition of "link" and be correct
2022-07-28 18:32:00 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-28 18:32:14 +0200 <hasbae> ok, i don't mean the colloquial version.
2022-07-28 18:32:31 +0200 <c_wraith> So.. base has a lot of stuff in it. I'm willing to bet ghc doesn't use *all* of it.
2022-07-28 18:32:31 +0200 <dolio> zebrag: Free in the context of algebra means a similar thing to data types. You take some unstructured set (or similar) and add all the algebraic structure as sort of uninterpreted syntax, except the syntax is identified by any equations of the algebra.
2022-07-28 18:33:05 +0200 <geekosaur> you can also use it to mean the interrelationships themselves (the collection of "wired-in" and "known-key" types and values defined in base that ghc uses)
2022-07-28 18:33:17 +0200 <younder> Clearly GHC interfaces to other languages than Haskell. Like the Linux core is written i C. So there is a huge amount of Code that is not as rigorously tested for errors as is Haskell.
2022-07-28 18:33:31 +0200 <c_wraith> when ghc is built, it links against base, and a lot of base gets included into it. But when ghc is distributed, it includes full copies of the base library so that it can hand them to the linker when linking code it compiles.
2022-07-28 18:33:33 +0200 <dolio> Data types are very simple free algebras; the constructors are the operation you add, and there are no equations.
2022-07-28 18:33:53 +0200 <hasbae> ok. i wanted a better overview of the relationship of base and prelude, both from a haskell POV, and one layer underneath. so thanks :>, and sorry for being ambiguous
2022-07-28 18:34:10 +0200 <c_wraith> not a problem, I just wanted to be sure to answer the question you meant to ask. :)
2022-07-28 18:34:14 +0200 <dolio> And the unstructured type it's building on is empty.
2022-07-28 18:36:43 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@87.215.131.98) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-28 18:37:35 +0200 <younder> I find Haskell/Rust a appealing combo.
2022-07-28 18:38:06 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2022-07-28 18:39:39 +0200 <c_wraith> I wish I could find some less-tutorial rust introductions. I don't want to be hand-held through a bunch of projects, I want to be told "here's a construct, go play with it"
2022-07-28 18:41:04 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 18:41:26 +0200 <younder> I read 'Rust for rustations' by Jon Engseth.  That is beyond introductory.
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2022-07-28 18:50:08 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 18:52:07 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2022-07-28 18:54:36 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-28 18:58:52 +0200 <zebrag> I was just thinking about that. They say iron-oxide. Other people say it is related to Mozilla.
2022-07-28 18:59:45 +0200 <darkling> I thought rust was named for the fungi?
2022-07-28 18:59:46 +0200benin0(~benin@183.82.30.242) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2022-07-28 19:00:07 +0200 <zebrag> "Graydon Hoare designed Rust while working at Mozilla"
2022-07-28 19:00:09 +0200sandy_doo(~sandydoo@185.209.196.136)
2022-07-28 19:00:13 +0200 <zebrag> yes there is a fungi too
2022-07-28 19:01:26 +0200 <younder> Anyhow both have algebraic proof system as basis for their type system.
2022-07-28 19:01:41 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-07-28 19:01:49 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::311d)
2022-07-28 19:02:10 +0200 <zebrag> (you mean rust and the fungi)
2022-07-28 19:02:13 +0200 <younder> So they produce robust programs
2022-07-28 19:02:25 +0200 <younder> Haskell and Rust
2022-07-28 19:05:43 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-86-154.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:06:36 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 19:07:09 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-07-28 19:07:57 +0200vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:12:05 +0200 <zebrag> Seriously rust seems a good thing, if only because it's not c++. I'm wondering to what extent it could replace python.
2022-07-28 19:12:34 +0200MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@c-001-026-031.client.tudelft.eduvpn.nl)
2022-07-28 19:13:01 +0200 <zebrag> (so far I've never been able to compile a single rust thing, but I didn't spend so much time on it)
2022-07-28 19:16:14 +0200 <zebrag> https://towardsdatascience.com/learning-rust-by-converting-python-to-rust-259e735591c6
2022-07-28 19:16:56 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2022-07-28 19:18:33 +0200sandy_doo(~sandydoo@185.209.196.136) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:23:17 +0200vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw)
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2022-07-28 19:24:39 +0200brence(~brence@45.240.170.35)
2022-07-28 19:25:40 +0200mikail(~mikail@2a02:c7f:bc47:8c00:5aa7:b193:11e3:d108)
2022-07-28 19:25:44 +0200 <brence> What's the memory overhead/footprint of the info table for a fully evaluated value?
2022-07-28 19:26:12 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 19:26:16 +0200 <mikail> what happened to that haskell discord server? does it no longer exist? I can't find an invite to it anywhere...
2022-07-28 19:27:55 +0200 <geekosaur> brence, I'm not sure that question is meaningful
2022-07-28 19:28:11 +0200gehmehgehgmg
2022-07-28 19:28:13 +0200 <geekosaur> an info table is associated with a type, and is compiled in
2022-07-28 19:29:15 +0200econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-07-28 19:30:02 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:30:19 +0200 <brence> geekosaur what do you mean by compiled in?
2022-07-28 19:30:29 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:31:04 +0200 <geekosaur> it becomes part of the Haskell binary
2022-07-28 19:31:11 +0200 <geekosaur> only one is needed for each type
2022-07-28 19:32:48 +0200 <brence> that also holds for dynamically constructed closures?
2022-07-28 19:33:35 +0200 <geekosaur> their types are statically known, so yes
2022-07-28 19:34:39 +0200 <c_wraith> there is overhead for GC headers per value, but there's no info table required.
2022-07-28 19:35:52 +0200 <brence> are GC headers different than the heap object header?
2022-07-28 19:36:01 +0200 <brence> for some value
2022-07-28 19:37:10 +0200 <c_wraith> that sounds like the same thing. it's a bit field that indicates what fields are pointers to heap values.
2022-07-28 19:38:01 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::311d) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:39:10 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:357f:5f50:899a:d5a4)
2022-07-28 19:40:40 +0200dknite(~dknite@49.37.45.188) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-28 19:40:54 +0200dknite(~dknite@94.198.43.103)
2022-07-28 19:43:32 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:357f:5f50:899a:d5a4) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:44:36 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::311d)
2022-07-28 19:45:00 +0200 <brence> From what I understand, the constructor of a type occupies one word. That word is the header which has a pointer to the info table, and has the constructor tag in the last 2/3 bits and an indicator for evaluatedness. Is the bit field that indicates what fields are pointers also part of this header?
2022-07-28 19:45:04 +0200alternateved(~user@staticline-31-183-144-54.toya.net.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 19:49:04 +0200 <qrpnxz> hasbae: join is warbler, bind is (blackbird warbler blue)
2022-07-28 19:49:55 +0200 <qrpnxz> blue as in bluebird
2022-07-28 19:50:20 +0200sandy_doo(~sandydoo@185.209.196.136)
2022-07-28 19:50:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-07-28 19:50:51 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 19:51:20 +0200alternateved(~user@staticline-31-183-144-54.toya.net.pl)
2022-07-28 19:51:42 +0200dknite(~dknite@94.198.43.103) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:51:46 +0200k8yun(~k8yun@user/k8yun)
2022-07-28 19:52:02 +0200 <hasbae> qrpnxz: thanks! relatedly, I recently saw a video of a kestrel flying, and thought it was an apt choice for the I combinator
2022-07-28 19:52:17 +0200 <hasbae> i mean K combinator
2022-07-28 19:52:18 +0200 <qrpnxz> kestrel is K
2022-07-28 19:52:20 +0200 <qrpnxz> lol
2022-07-28 19:52:23 +0200 <qrpnxz> 💀
2022-07-28 19:52:34 +0200dknite(~dknite@49.37.45.188)
2022-07-28 19:52:46 +0200 <qrpnxz> kestrel is the red bird right?
2022-07-28 19:52:47 +0200 <qrpnxz> pretty
2022-07-28 19:54:29 +0200 <hasbae> I see it closer to brown... https://youtu.be/7j6OsP7zL6w, but my color choices have been questioned before
2022-07-28 19:54:37 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:357f:5f50:899a:d5a4)
2022-07-28 19:55:21 +0200 <qrpnxz> mmm, i was probably thinking of a totally different bird
2022-07-28 19:55:24 +0200 <qrpnxz> maybe the cardinal
2022-07-28 19:55:46 +0200 <hasbae> cardinal is certainly red
2022-07-28 19:56:19 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 19:57:44 +0200codaraxis(~codaraxis@user/codaraxis)
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2022-07-28 19:59:55 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2022-07-28 20:00:39 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@host109-154-231-142.range109-154.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 20:01:16 +0200cosimone(~user@93-44-186-171.ip98.fastwebnet.it)
2022-07-28 20:01:17 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 20:01:59 +0200 <hasbae> qrpnxz: I had to look up blackbird. It's not in the mockingbird book
2022-07-28 20:02:39 +0200Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2022-07-28 20:02:43 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a1b3:f2e8:e66c:24a2:a2e8) (Quit: king_gs)
2022-07-28 20:03:44 +0200codaraxis(~codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-07-28 20:03:45 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-171-59-23.range86-171.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 20:04:05 +0200 <brence> c_wraith is the GC header part of the object's pointer?
2022-07-28 20:06:12 +0200 <c_wraith> uh. not completely sure what you're asking, but... I don't think so. pointers can be tagged with whether they're evaluated or not, but the GC header is part of the heap value
2022-07-28 20:06:56 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@host109-154-231-142.range109-154.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-28 20:08:06 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 20:08:12 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 20:08:40 +0200 <brence> makes sense, thanks!
2022-07-28 20:08:41 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:357f:5f50:899a:d5a4) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 20:11:06 +0200 <hasbae> qrpnxz: warbler's type signature is (a->a->b)->a->b, so how is that same as join:: a -> m a?
2022-07-28 20:12:20 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 20:14:48 +0200 <c_wraith> that's not the type of join
2022-07-28 20:14:53 +0200 <c_wraith> :t join
2022-07-28 20:14:54 +0200 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
2022-07-28 20:15:42 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 20:16:02 +0200 <hasbae> oops
2022-07-28 20:16:23 +0200 <hasbae> now it makes sense
2022-07-28 20:17:01 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 20:20:32 +0200elkcl(~elkcl@broadband-37-110-156-162.ip.moscow.rt.ru)
2022-07-28 20:20:52 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2022-07-28 20:26:22 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 20:27:51 +0200malte(~malte@mal.tc) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 20:28:13 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-184-242-54.range86-184.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2022-07-28 20:29:56 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 20:31:56 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:357f:5f50:899a:d5a4)
2022-07-28 20:32:00 +0200 <qrpnxz> lol
2022-07-28 20:32:47 +0200 <qrpnxz> a -> m a would be pure, which is kestrel :)
2022-07-28 20:32:56 +0200 <qrpnxz> (const)
2022-07-28 20:33:06 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-184-129-152.range86-184.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 20:34:22 +0200malte(~malte@mal.tc)
2022-07-28 20:34:35 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-184-129-152.range86-184.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 20:39:00 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-184-129-152.range86-184.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-28 20:39:51 +0200causal(~user@2001:470:ea0f:3:329c:23ff:fe3f:1e0e)
2022-07-28 20:41:36 +0200 <EvanR> haskell is supposedly purely functional. But it only has 1 pure function
2022-07-28 20:41:58 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host109-149-1-170.range109-149.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 20:42:05 +0200k8yun(~k8yun@user/k8yun) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-28 20:42:11 +0200 <qrpnxz> xD
2022-07-28 20:43:01 +0200tstat(~user@user/tstat)
2022-07-28 20:43:41 +0200 <geekosaur> :)
2022-07-28 20:43:52 +0200k8yun(~k8yun@user/k8yun)
2022-07-28 20:47:30 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-28 20:47:40 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-07-28 20:50:13 +0200 <qrpnxz> man, flipping the flow of my compositions is bit of a pain with the current precedences, but it can be done alright with a few parens
2022-07-28 20:51:10 +0200 <EvanR> you need a flow flipper
2022-07-28 20:53:03 +0200 <qrpnxz> i should try learning to appreciate just absolutely everything flowing right to left, then i wouldn't have any problems and readability would probably improve
2022-07-28 20:55:22 +0200 <qrpnxz> function application is fundamentally right to left in haskell after all. The types decided to be backwards though :( Except in lens :)
2022-07-28 20:56:39 +0200 <EvanR> oh you're trying to flip the direction of . ?
2022-07-28 20:56:50 +0200 <EvanR> yeah just don't xD
2022-07-28 20:57:27 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) (Quit: coot)
2022-07-28 20:57:53 +0200 <EvanR> though, function application associates to the left, not the right
2022-07-28 20:57:56 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
2022-07-28 20:58:05 +0200 <qrpnxz> for normal function it's (.) into >>> yeah, for monadic it's >>= and >=>
2022-07-28 20:58:20 +0200 <geekosaur> :t (&)
2022-07-28 20:58:22 +0200 <lambdabot> a -> (a -> b) -> b
2022-07-28 20:58:27 +0200 <qrpnxz> right, exactly, so no matter what you've got bbits of right to left because of application
2022-07-28 20:58:38 +0200 <qrpnxz> unless you wanna sprinkle (&) everywhere
2022-07-28 20:58:45 +0200 <qrpnxz> and that will probably need parens
2022-07-28 20:58:55 +0200 <qrpnxz> so really, i should just embrace right to left all the way
2022-07-28 20:59:14 +0200geekosaurjust uses right to left, yeh. because math
2022-07-28 21:00:55 +0200 <EvanR> after learning about associativity versus evaluation order which matters in haskell, I no longer understand anyone when they speak of "right to left" or "left to right"
2022-07-28 21:01:23 +0200 <c_wraith> also, in important ways in Haskell, f (g x) actually runs f first
2022-07-28 21:01:39 +0200 <EvanR> yeah that's part of why
2022-07-28 21:01:54 +0200 <matthewmosior> Has anyone here played with linear haskell yet? Specifically reading in entire files? Just curious, I still need to try it. I believe that it can allow one to avoid GC if I'm understanding correctly?
2022-07-28 21:02:30 +0200 <EvanR> is that true?
2022-07-28 21:02:59 +0200 <c_wraith> I don't think that's true. it's only type system changes. there are no runtime changes associated with it
2022-07-28 21:04:37 +0200 <c_wraith> what I suppose it can do is allow you to use in-place mutation safely, if you design libraries specifically around that. (isn't that also possible using IO or ST? yes it sure is!)
2022-07-28 21:06:02 +0200mncheck-m(~mncheck@193.224.205.254) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 21:06:07 +0200 <EvanR> that's what I thought. There is no magic garbage collector collector associated with linear haskell, or with the equivalent in idris (used to be uniqueness types)
2022-07-28 21:06:48 +0200mncheck-m(~mncheck@193.224.205.254)
2022-07-28 21:06:56 +0200 <EvanR> but this magic is still highly associated with linear types. Is there a language that does this?
2022-07-28 21:07:38 +0200 <dolio> Idris does some things with its system.
2022-07-28 21:07:53 +0200 <dolio> Maybe not the linear things, but the 0 things are erased, right?
2022-07-28 21:08:13 +0200 <EvanR> erased types don't "run" at runtime, there's that
2022-07-28 21:08:25 +0200 <EvanR> which is good
2022-07-28 21:10:03 +0200 <c_wraith> I think a lot of this idea comes from Clean
2022-07-28 21:10:25 +0200 <c_wraith> which did use its type system to make mutation safe, without having an equivalent of ST or IO
2022-07-28 21:11:37 +0200 <c_wraith> so libraries were already built around it.
2022-07-28 21:11:43 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:357f:5f50:899a:d5a4) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 21:12:13 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 21:12:23 +0200 <dolio> Linear types aren't really the same as what's in Clean, though.
2022-07-28 21:13:40 +0200 <c_wraith> no, but people (including me) are really bad at remembering the difference between linear and uniqueness types. :)
2022-07-28 21:14:16 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-28 21:22:44 +0200sandydoo(~sandydoo@185.209.196.136)
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2022-07-28 21:26:27 +0200_xor(~xor@74.215.182.83) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2022-07-28 21:30:01 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc00:5a00:7d31:dffe:9d62:f2ae)
2022-07-28 21:30:16 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-177-223-225.range86-177.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 21:31:48 +0200sonologico(~raphael@77.251.118.129)
2022-07-28 21:33:22 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 21:34:12 +0200 <unclechu> Hey, can I somehow apply a patch for a dependency using Stack?
2022-07-28 21:34:48 +0200 <unclechu> Or override dependency bounds for it?
2022-07-28 21:35:07 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-150-18-23.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 21:37:31 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-177-223-225.range86-177.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 21:37:35 +0200 <qrpnxz> geekosaur: here is a comparison going one direction versus the other https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bj7SxBXL
2022-07-28 21:39:11 +0200 <geekosaur> mm, that's just precedence, right? try seeing if (&) has better precedence compared to (>>=) than (>>>)
2022-07-28 21:39:17 +0200 <brence> In modern ghc, when a thunk is evaluated does it get replaced by the actual value or an indirection to the value?
2022-07-28 21:39:26 +0200 <geekosaur> (oh yay, my hack to the emoji script worked)
2022-07-28 21:40:12 +0200 <geekosaur> brence, depending on what exactly you mean, it's an indirection because alll lazy values (and it must be lazy to be a thunk) are indirect
2022-07-28 21:40:37 +0200 <geekosaur> also this means things like trees can be shared by reusing their pointers
2022-07-28 21:41:01 +0200 <dolio> In general it has to be an indirection, because there isn't enough room to update a thunk to its contents.
2022-07-28 21:41:17 +0200 <dolio> Then garbage collection will eliminate indirections.
2022-07-28 21:41:42 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-150-18-23.range86-150.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 21:42:33 +0200Player-205[m](~sashaserp@2001:470:69fc:105::2:30b8)
2022-07-28 21:43:07 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 21:45:22 +0200 <dolio> Also you need the indirections anyway for some cases.
2022-07-28 21:45:38 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:357f:5f50:899a:d5a4)
2022-07-28 21:47:37 +0200 <brence> That makes sense, thanks. What does it mean for the GC to eliminate indirections? Does it update the references to point to the new value instead of the thunk?
2022-07-28 21:49:02 +0200euandreh(~euandreh@179.214.113.107)
2022-07-28 21:49:05 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, when you GC, with a copying GC at least, your copy can point directly to the actual value, instead of pointing to a pointer to the value.
2022-07-28 21:49:57 +0200 <brence> gotcha
2022-07-28 21:50:43 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:357f:5f50:899a:d5a4) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 21:51:05 +0200sonologico(~raphael@77.251.118.129) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 21:51:09 +0200 <dolio> Might be more complicated if you're doing something like mark/compact.
2022-07-28 21:52:25 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc00:5a00:7d31:dffe:9d62:f2ae) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-28 21:53:12 +0200Player-205[m](~sashaserp@2001:470:69fc:105::2:30b8) ()
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2022-07-28 23:08:20 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-07-28 23:11:23 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2022-07-28 23:17:35 +0200 <qrpnxz> playing around with streaming has made me really appreciate Free monads :) I'm getting to the point where i am extending the functor so much that i should probably start to use an actual effect system.
2022-07-28 23:18:43 +0200M3w0[m](~M3w0matri@2001:470:69fc:105::2:55b3)
2022-07-28 23:19:45 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-204.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-07-28 23:22:07 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-07-28 23:23:08 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-07-28 23:24:22 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 23:27:50 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 23:33:53 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@191.126.99.71)
2022-07-28 23:34:16 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca)
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2022-07-28 23:34:39 +0200 <slack1256> I got a memory leak with PINNED values. Would manually inserted SCC be more helpful at diagnosing who is producing these values?
2022-07-28 23:35:19 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-07-28 23:36:07 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 23:36:44 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-07-28 23:36:47 +0200 <slack1256> Another question is that `stack --profile` inserts SCC everywhere. These have not been helpful, what is more they muddle the output with unhelp SCC. Anyway to tell stack to `use -prof but not -fprof-auto-all`? passing it via ghc-options throws an error message.
2022-07-28 23:39:46 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
2022-07-28 23:39:47 +0200 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.1/docs/html/users_guide/9.2.1-notes.html#runtime-system
2022-07-28 23:40:15 +0200 <geekosaur> as I mentioned earlier, profiling used to not account pinned memory to SCCs, as of 9.2.1 it does
2022-07-28 23:40:29 +0200 <maralorn> Is there a way to query the time and memory consumption of a part of my code will running the code? e.g. I have a loop over a list of inputs which trigger different code paths but I don‘t know which of the iterations are the inperformant ones. Can I change my program to collect that data?
2022-07-28 23:41:34 +0200 <EvanR> if you have IO lying around you could check the monotonic timer, evaluate your code however much is relevant, check the time again afterward
2022-07-28 23:41:43 +0200 <EvanR> how much to evaluate seems tricky
2022-07-28 23:42:04 +0200 <maralorn> Yeah, I have IO around.
2022-07-28 23:42:25 +0200 <EvanR> I like the clock package to get this monotonic clock value
2022-07-28 23:42:43 +0200 <maralorn> I already force the result of every step anyways so that shouldn‘t be a problem.
2022-07-28 23:42:47 +0200 <hpc> i just use acme-now :D
2022-07-28 23:42:59 +0200 <EvanR> acme-now would work for some value of work
2022-07-28 23:43:16 +0200 <EvanR> value = 0 probably
2022-07-28 23:43:29 +0200 <hpc> it applies force over time
2022-07-28 23:43:44 +0200 <EvanR> is that an elon musk reference
2022-07-28 23:44:04 +0200 <EvanR> oh, it's the definition of work
2022-07-28 23:44:07 +0200 <hpc> work is the integral of force over time in physics
2022-07-28 23:44:32 +0200 <hpc> and also "forcing" can mean to try and make something fit where it actually shouldn't fit at all
2022-07-28 23:44:44 +0200 <EvanR> dW = force dot dDistance
2022-07-28 23:44:55 +0200 <monochrom> I think the "criterion" package may help.
2022-07-28 23:45:03 +0200 <hpc> bah, space and time are the same thing anyway
2022-07-28 23:45:12 +0200 <maralorn> "for some value of work" not sure if I understood Marx right, but I think if the time difference is zero there is also no value as result of the work …
2022-07-28 23:45:18 +0200 <monochrom> But why are we drifting to physics? :)
2022-07-28 23:45:39 +0200 <slack1256> geekosaur: WOAH
2022-07-28 23:45:44 +0200 <EvanR> no no, now it's communism
2022-07-28 23:46:18 +0200 <monochrom> And if we are drifting to physics, why aren't we bringing up Noether's theorem and discuss the symmetries that underlie work and force? >:)
2022-07-28 23:48:06 +0200 <maralorn> Is there also a monotonic clock function in some more standard packages?
2022-07-28 23:48:09 +0200 <maralorn> e.g. time?
2022-07-28 23:48:24 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 23:48:46 +0200 <monochrom> time doesn't expose unix's monotonic clock. Maybe unix does.
2022-07-28 23:49:21 +0200 <hpc> is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/clock-0.8.3/docs/System-Clock.html#v:Monotonic not it?
2022-07-28 23:49:36 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-07-28 23:49:47 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.77) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-28 23:50:05 +0200 <maralorn> hpc: Yeah it is. I just was wondering if I should pull in a new dependency for this.
2022-07-28 23:50:36 +0200 <hpc> (that was at monochrom saying it didn't have it :P)
2022-07-28 23:50:41 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-28 23:50:58 +0200 <monochrom> But I was only talking about time and unix.
2022-07-28 23:51:15 +0200 <hpc> ... doh, that's the "clock" package
2022-07-28 23:51:23 +0200 <maralorn> Yeah.
2022-07-28 23:51:29 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7058640883c7bf2a50d2bab.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-28 23:51:48 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-28 23:52:50 +0200 <EvanR> since to do anything at all really you have to "pull in" vector... I consider all bets off xD
2022-07-28 23:53:09 +0200 <mon_aaraj> i wonder, is there any sort of "bracket" EFFECT in haskell-effectful? I can do it with ContT by using mtl and transformers, but I want to switch to effectful (polysemy is what i'll last go to), but they don't support delimited continuations... but also, i believe the bracket effect is a small subset of delimited continuations, so I'm not sure if it's even possible to do in effectful
2022-07-28 23:53:18 +0200 <EvanR> the only question will be if you want to pull in linear, which pulls in the kmettiverse
2022-07-28 23:55:00 +0200sonologico(~raphael@dhcp-077-251-118-129.chello.nl)
2022-07-28 23:55:38 +0200 <monochrom> If you have vector and clock, you have vector clock, you can do cloud computing
2022-07-28 23:56:07 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-8.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-28 23:56:54 +0200 <EvanR> is vector clock like vector graphics or vector victor clearance clarence
2022-07-28 23:57:22 +0200 <EvanR> or a new kind of vector
2022-07-28 23:57:50 +0200 <geekosaur> https://scitechdaily.com/physicists-create-mind-bending-new-phase-of-matter-that-acts-like-it-has-…
2022-07-28 23:59:01 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-167-90-210.range86-167.btcentralplus.com)
2022-07-28 23:59:21 +0200alternateved(~user@staticline-31-183-144-54.toya.net.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)