2022/04/23

2022-04-23 00:01:10 +0200 <abastro[m]> Oh so -haddock is indeed necessary to see documentation!
2022-04-23 00:01:29 +0200 <abastro[m]> Interesting how it is enough for me to see documentation when hovering with HLS
2022-04-23 00:01:48 +0200 <abastro[m]> Now how to make the documentation link come up tho..
2022-04-23 00:04:20 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> puzzle:
2022-04-23 00:04:29 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> > f :: (forall a. a -> a) -> (); f _ = ()
2022-04-23 00:04:30 +0200 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:30: error: parse error on input ‘;’
2022-04-23 00:04:40 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> doh
2022-04-23 00:05:06 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> it wasn't supposed to be that puzzle
2022-04-23 00:05:16 +0200 <abastro[m]> :P lambdabot
2022-04-23 00:05:27 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> in ghci this works
2022-04-23 00:06:33 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> scratch that
2022-04-23 00:06:36 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> > f (_ :: forall a. a -> a) = ()
2022-04-23 00:06:39 +0200 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:27: error: parse error on input ‘=’
2022-04-23 00:06:45 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> > f id
2022-04-23 00:06:47 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2022-04-23 00:06:47 +0200 <lambdabot> • Could not deduce (Typeable a0) arising from a use of ‘f’
2022-04-23 00:06:47 +0200 <lambdabot> from the context: FromExpr t
2022-04-23 00:07:16 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> I'm sorry; this works in ghci, too ;(
2022-04-23 00:07:56 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> anyway
2022-04-23 00:08:02 +0200ManofLetters[m]sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/58261ff14bb7e532c42758b693851e93f2f6…
2022-04-23 00:08:12 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> puzzle ^^^
2022-04-23 00:08:24 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> argh, sorry, wrong puzzle
2022-04-23 00:08:50 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> again:
2022-04-23 00:08:57 +0200ManofLetters[m]sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/f3022b39778575dd92b57cb874befbe56559…
2022-04-23 00:09:03 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> puzzle ^^^
2022-04-23 00:09:08 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> why so?
2022-04-23 00:09:32 +0200 <monochrom> What does ":type id f" say?
2022-04-23 00:09:38 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> how do I make it work? (in real life, the `id` is `inline`)
2022-04-23 00:10:06 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> hmm, it fail
2022-04-23 00:10:29 +0200ManofLetters[m]sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2bc2a877a9b00f9b00334a98fed4856dd916…
2022-04-23 00:10:59 +0200 <abastro[m]> Yea that explains it
2022-04-23 00:11:00 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> good catch, but I still don't understand
2022-04-23 00:11:07 +0200 <abastro[m]> id is not sufficiently powerful for rhis
2022-04-23 00:11:43 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> what is? how to make `inline` sufficienty powerful so that I can do `inline f foo`?
2022-04-23 00:12:19 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> (GHC.Exts.inline)
2022-04-23 00:12:54 +0200 <geekosaur> % :set ImpredicativeTypes
2022-04-23 00:13:04 +0200 <geekosaur> uh, did we lose yahb?
2022-04-23 00:13:19 +0200 <geekosaur> yep :(
2022-04-23 00:13:57 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-04-23 00:14:37 +0200 <geekosaur> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/z0DyQwhU
2022-04-23 00:15:02 +0200 <abastro[m]> Oh right, that was impredicativetypes
2022-04-23 00:15:38 +0200 <abastro[m]> I thought impredicativetypes is on by default in ghc 9.2.2 - so it doesn't?
2022-04-23 00:15:56 +0200 <monochrom> No. Instead, the claim is "it actually works".
2022-04-23 00:16:15 +0200 <monochrom> "it finally actually works"
2022-04-23 00:16:38 +0200 <monochrom> Not even GHC2021 is on by default.
2022-04-23 00:17:21 +0200 <monochrom> maerwald would have left, not merely voicing objections, if GHC ever turns on any substantial extension by default. :)
2022-04-23 00:17:28 +0200 <geekosaur> ImpredicativeTypes has been a bit harum-scarum for a long time because there was no actual definition of how it ought to work, just hacks. but as of 9.0 it got a real, consistent definition
2022-04-23 00:17:58 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@24.105.81.50) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-04-23 00:19:06 +0200littlebobeep(~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)
2022-04-23 00:20:07 +0200 <abastro[m]> Aha, now it actually works
2022-04-23 00:21:01 +0200 <abastro[m]> Hmm I'd personally love new haskell standard..
2022-04-23 00:21:27 +0200 <abastro[m]> So that some are no longer left as extensions
2022-04-23 00:21:33 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> geekosaur: thank you; the puzzle award goes to you; now I need a better example, because it still fails in the real life code ;)
2022-04-23 00:21:35 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-04-23 00:21:41 +0200 <geekosaur> the problem is,someone needs to go through and document all the additions and how they interact with each other
2022-04-23 00:21:49 +0200 <geekosaur> ManofLetters[m], what version of ghc?
2022-04-23 00:21:56 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> 9.2.2
2022-04-23 00:22:21 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> but it's a bit more complex in real life
2022-04-23 00:22:48 +0200 <geekosaur> hm, so you have QuickLook. (I don't, at least not without a little work; I'm on 8.10.7) can you pastebin your actual code or at least enough to reproduce the issue?
2022-04-23 00:23:09 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> yep, working on it
2022-04-23 00:24:44 +0200 <geekosaur> hm, actually no work needed, I can specify it directly by version. yay ghcup :)
2022-04-23 00:25:32 +0200 <monochrom> "inline f id" is still OK.
2022-04-23 00:25:58 +0200 <geekosaur> actually I'd wonder if this might be the opposite
2022-04-23 00:26:11 +0200 <geekosaur> QuickLook made some eta expansions mandatory
2022-04-23 00:26:20 +0200 <geekosaur> and ytiou get odd type errors otherwise
2022-04-23 00:26:26 +0200 <geekosaur> *you
2022-04-23 00:26:33 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> got it:
2022-04-23 00:26:38 +0200briandaed(~briandaed@109.95.142.93.r.toneticgroup.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 00:26:40 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> f :: forall r. (forall a. Either a r -> Either a r) -> (); f _ = ()
2022-04-23 00:26:40 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> id f
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2022-04-23 00:33:58 +0200 <geekosaur> mm, I think this might be a question for #ghc or even filing a ticket. seems odd that the one works but the other doesn't
2022-04-23 00:34:03 +0200Midjak(~Midjak@82.66.147.146)
2022-04-23 00:34:20 +0200 <geekosaur> (repeated here, and getting `it` out of the way didn't help)
2022-04-23 00:36:23 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah a bit strange.
2022-04-23 00:37:00 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> ok, thank you, will go molest the #ghc guys
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2022-04-23 05:03:57 +0200 <abastro> What is inverse of parser combinators?
2022-04-23 05:04:10 +0200 <abastro> We have inverse of read, show
2022-04-23 05:04:43 +0200 <monochrom> pretty printer
2022-04-23 05:05:11 +0200 <monochrom> pretty printer combinators :)
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2022-04-23 05:23:10 +0200 <abastro> Pretty printer?
2022-04-23 05:24:19 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 05:24:49 +0200 <abastro> Which pretty printer do you mean, monochrom?
2022-04-23 05:25:22 +0200 <monochrom> That is analogous to "which parser do you mean?".
2022-04-23 05:25:46 +0200 <monochrom> And the answer to both is "it shouldn't matter, I'm referring to the concept".
2022-04-23 05:26:11 +0200 <abastro> Hmm
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2022-04-23 05:26:56 +0200 <abastro> Perhaps I am missing something. After my shallow skim, it seems like pretty printers are for colors
2022-04-23 05:29:23 +0200littlebobeep(~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)
2022-04-23 05:30:52 +0200deadmarshal_(~deadmarsh@95.38.228.198)
2022-04-23 05:31:06 +0200 <EvanR_> the opposite of a pretty printer is to dump all information on one line, possibly word wrapped so as to be incomprehensible
2022-04-23 05:31:36 +0200 <EvanR_> the analogous concept to parsers is parsing by using regex
2022-04-23 05:32:12 +0200EvanR_EvanR
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2022-04-23 10:10:41 +0200dostoevsky(~5c42c5384@user/dostoevsky)
2022-04-23 10:13:28 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2022-04-23 10:14:25 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211)
2022-04-23 10:14:49 +0200yauhsien(~Yau-Hsien@61-231-27-3.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-04-23 10:17:06 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2022-04-23 10:19:20 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-04-23 10:21:59 +0200jhagborg(~jhagborg@068-187-237-099.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 10:23:31 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-04-23 10:23:43 +0200vorpuni(~pvorp@2001:861:3881:c690:48b:1c3e:9664:889b)
2022-04-23 10:27:04 +0200zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f444:8f00:7447:c149:bef5:4b2b)
2022-04-23 10:27:34 +0200deadmarshal_(~deadmarsh@95.38.228.198) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-04-23 10:29:23 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95)
2022-04-23 10:34:25 +0200jgeerds(~jgeerds@d53604b0.access.ecotel.net)
2022-04-23 10:34:28 +0200 <anomal> Does the brain map well to functional programming?
2022-04-23 10:34:35 +0200 <anomal> As in can we have a functional ANN?
2022-04-23 10:34:43 +0200 <anomal> I think not
2022-04-23 10:36:50 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211)
2022-04-23 10:37:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> I think standard dense neural networks are pretty functional
2022-04-23 10:40:44 +0200 <[Leary]> There's nothing imperative about NNs---they're all compositions of pure functions.
2022-04-23 10:42:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> well you have these weird LSTM things that seem to have memory -- though I could be misunderstanding those
2022-04-23 10:43:03 +0200 <[Leary]> So does the state monad.
2022-04-23 10:43:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> sure
2022-04-23 10:43:58 +0200 <dibblego> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRszt-AlKOc
2022-04-23 10:44:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> but it's a question of perspective anyway: a state monad can be seen as 's -> (a, s)' which is purely functional, or a computation returning an 'a' with state, which is not functional
2022-04-23 10:44:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> "being functional" is subjective and dependent on perspective
2022-04-23 10:47:47 +0200 <[Leary]> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2022-04-23 10:50:37 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-04-23 10:51:29 +0200anomal(~anomal@87.227.196.109) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 10:52:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> I think that's precisely the appropriate response :p
2022-04-23 10:52:19 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 10:54:04 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 10:55:45 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-04-23 10:57:18 +0200laolmtdea^(~laolmtdea@96-89-88-129-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 11:00:09 +0200charukiewicz[m](~charukiew@2001:470:69fc:105::ded4) (Quit: You have been kicked for being idle)
2022-04-23 11:04:30 +0200 <abastro[m]> We don't know how true brains are done
2022-04-23 11:04:54 +0200 <abastro[m]> Btw what is the result of the video dibblego posted?
2022-04-23 11:05:05 +0200abastro(~abab9579@220.75.216.63) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-04-23 11:05:10 +0200 <abastro[m]> Don't wanna watch personally
2022-04-23 11:19:29 +0200neurocyte8614492(~neurocyte@IP-094016064194.dynamic.medianet-world.de)
2022-04-23 11:19:29 +0200neurocyte8614492(~neurocyte@IP-094016064194.dynamic.medianet-world.de) (Changing host)
2022-04-23 11:19:29 +0200neurocyte8614492(~neurocyte@user/neurocyte)
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2022-04-23 11:41:57 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2022-04-23 12:38:19 +0200sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2022-04-23 12:38:31 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
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2022-04-23 12:51:43 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2022-04-23 13:58:28 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2022-04-23 14:04:34 +0200Hiring(~Hiring@31.222.238.38)
2022-04-23 14:04:45 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2022-04-23 14:14:50 +0200 <Hiring> HR Manager hiring programmers and certified specialists in readteaming. Interested ppl DM me and we will exchange with our linkedin etc
2022-04-23 14:15:53 +0200 <__monty__> What even is readteaming?
2022-04-23 14:15:55 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 14:16:20 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-04-23 14:17:16 +0200 <Hiring> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_team
2022-04-23 14:17:48 +0200 <hpc> is it haskell-related?
2022-04-23 14:18:03 +0200 <Hiring> Yes.
2022-04-23 14:20:11 +0200 <hpc> maybe post a link or something, so it's not just a solicitation for PMs
2022-04-23 14:20:27 +0200 <hpc> it could be interesting even to people that don't apply, and this is a discussion channel after all :P
2022-04-23 14:22:23 +0200kaph(~kaph@151.35.125.127)
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2022-04-23 14:51:35 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> your daily type-level puzzle (both errors are puzzling me): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/W1DfJbNL
2022-04-23 14:51:56 +0200AlexZenon_2AlexZenon
2022-04-23 14:52:13 +0200AlexNoo_AlexNoo
2022-04-23 14:53:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> ManofLetters[m]: first error is because `f` cannot be called without type applications (because `z` is then always ambiguous)
2022-04-23 14:53:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> GHC prevents you from accidentally writing such a type signature, and requires AllowAmbiguousTypes to disable the check
2022-04-23 14:53:34 +0200jgeerds(~jgeerds@d53604b0.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-04-23 14:53:59 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> TIL
2022-04-23 14:54:06 +0200namkeleser(~namkelese@124.188.206.148) (Quit: Client closed)
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2022-04-23 14:55:26 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-04-23 14:56:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> ManofLetters[m]: the second I don't know exactly, but I suspect that that is because type class dictionaries are applied implicitly, so `c => a` unifies with `a` unifies with `d => a`, hence `y` in g's type signature is ambiguous
2022-04-23 14:56:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> but not sure
2022-04-23 14:58:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> in any case it does work if you add a `Proxy x` argument to the argument of `f` and to the type of `g`
2022-04-23 14:59:06 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2022-04-23 14:59:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> ManofLetters[m]: more info about the first error: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/ambiguous_types.html#extensio…
2022-04-23 15:01:00 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> got it, thank you; Proxies would be so sad ;(
2022-04-23 15:01:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> ManofLetters[m]: lol your example is literally there in the docs
2022-04-23 15:01:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> (though without explanation about why)
2022-04-23 15:04:03 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> wow, amazing; but it's sad, because it means I need to duplicate the type applications (once per each added proxy); oh well; thank you!
2022-04-23 15:04:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> you don't, right?
2022-04-23 15:04:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> `forall x. KnownNat x => Proxy x -> ()`
2022-04-23 15:04:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> then `f (Proxy @42)` is enough
2022-04-23 15:04:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> don't need `f @42 (Proxy @42)`
2022-04-23 15:05:38 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> oh, ok, I thought it's `f (Proxy @42) (g (Proxy @42))
2022-04-23 15:05:53 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> will try and report
2022-04-23 15:06:01 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> (try in the real life code)
2022-04-23 15:06:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> hm, true, though `f` happens to work without proxy in this toy example :p
2022-04-23 15:06:52 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.254.35.46) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2022-04-23 15:10:21 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
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2022-04-23 15:18:33 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2022-04-23 15:20:59 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> ok, tried out, it's not so bad, no code duplication (which is error-prone), fortunately
2022-04-23 15:21:13 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> `f (Proxy @42) g` is enough
2022-04-23 15:21:20 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> and `f` applies the proxy to `g`
2022-04-23 15:21:59 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> the biggest pain is that all the `g`-like function require (multiple, because there are many type parameters) proxies
2022-04-23 15:22:12 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> ta
2022-04-23 15:24:17 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 15:24:38 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-04-23 15:25:42 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> tomsmeding: ta
2022-04-23 15:25:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> ta?
2022-04-23 15:28:53 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> thank you again :)
2022-04-23 15:28:57 +0200 <ManofLetters[m]> thanks again?
2022-04-23 15:29:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah, didn't know that abbreviation
2022-04-23 15:29:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> cheers :)
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2022-04-23 17:39:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: styling is not yet improved, but the layout using css is much more stable now that I've used css grid (thanks arjun I guess for the suggestion): https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/play
2022-04-23 17:40:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> you said that working with css is like harvesting asparagus; maybe it's still unpleasant, but css grid does make this particular application a lot more intuitive
2022-04-23 17:40:41 +0200dextaa4(~dextaa@user/dextaa)
2022-04-23 17:42:40 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: nice
2022-04-23 17:45:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: see also the new button at the top :p
2022-04-23 17:45:50 +0200abastro(~abab9579@220.75.216.63) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-04-23 17:45:54 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: I'm trying to come up with an example that blows up heap size, but doesn't time out
2022-04-23 17:45:55 +0200 <maerwald> any idea?
2022-04-23 17:47:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> as in, use lots of memory in little time?
2022-04-23 17:48:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> let l = [1..1000000] in sum l + product l + length l
2022-04-23 17:49:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> hm
2022-04-23 17:50:13 +0200 <maerwald> times out
2022-04-23 17:50:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> yeah I noticed :p
2022-04-23 17:50:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah {-# NOINLINE l #-}
2022-04-23 17:51:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> with 100000000
2022-04-23 17:51:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> ghc being too smart again
2022-04-23 17:52:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/cd85IVb8
2022-04-23 17:52:47 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/LdCgMv9k
2022-04-23 17:52:50 +0200 <maerwald> doesn't work for me
2022-04-23 17:53:31 +0200 <maerwald> yours also times out
2022-04-23 17:53:35 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-04-23 17:53:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's on the border then apparently
2022-04-23 17:54:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> if I remove '+ length l' and add an 'Int' annotation to l, it gives heap exhausted fairly often, but not always
2022-04-23 17:54:57 +0200 <[_________]> what's the time limit ? putStrLn might always reach it if there's a lot of data
2022-04-23 17:54:59 +0200 <abastro[m]> Could I get dark mode for the playground
2022-04-23 17:55:09 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: 9.2.2 worked
2022-04-23 17:55:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> [_________]: timeout is here https://github.com/tomsmeding/pastebin-haskell/blob/play/GHCPool.hs#L37 , print is just an Int here so that's not it
2022-04-23 17:55:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> abastro[m]: noted, I would like it too
2022-04-23 17:57:05 +0200 <abastro[m]> Thanks!!!
2022-04-23 17:57:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> but no promises as to delivery time :p
2022-04-23 17:57:25 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: so did you get your bubblewrap line reviewed?
2022-04-23 17:57:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> not by a professional
2022-04-23 17:57:45 +0200dextaa4(~dextaa@user/dextaa) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 17:58:03 +0200 <maerwald> are there bubblewrap professionals other than the author?
2022-04-23 17:58:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> :')
2022-04-23 17:59:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: this one is much more efficient at exhausting heap https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/HrZJmcvi
2022-04-23 18:00:42 +0200o-90(~o-90@gateway/tor-sasl/o-90)
2022-04-23 18:01:19 +0200 <maerwald> you set max heap size to 500mb?
2022-04-23 18:01:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> Yes
2022-04-23 18:01:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> Is that too small?
2022-04-23 18:01:41 +0200 <maerwald> so there's only one worker thread?
2022-04-23 18:01:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> 3
2022-04-23 18:01:46 +0200 <maerwald> I was thinking smaller
2022-04-23 18:01:50 +0200 <maerwald> hmm
2022-04-23 18:02:02 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
2022-04-23 18:02:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> machine has 3.7G ram according to htop, and 3 cores
2022-04-23 18:02:33 +0200 <maerwald> I think I'd set it to 50mb and increase workers
2022-04-23 18:02:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> is it useful to have more workers than cores
2022-04-23 18:02:49 +0200 <maerwald> write efficient code :p
2022-04-23 18:03:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> I already have queueing functionality, if there's more jobs than workers they get queued
2022-04-23 18:03:03 +0200 <maerwald> no idea
2022-04-23 18:03:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> though the maximum queue length is also 3, no idea what's a good choice there
2022-04-23 18:04:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: also have this ulimit because it's trivial to System.Cmd.system your way out of the RTS limits https://github.com/tomsmeding/pastebin-haskell/blob/play/bwrap-files/start.sh#L40
2022-04-23 18:05:31 +0200 <maerwald> 3 workers seems a lil small imo... maybe the heap size can be a function of the number of workers
2022-04-23 18:05:35 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-04-23 18:05:46 +0200 <maerwald> and the current queue size
2022-04-23 18:05:56 +0200o-90(~o-90@gateway/tor-sasl/o-90) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-04-23 18:05:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: I doubt adding more workers than cores is helpful
2022-04-23 18:06:13 +0200 <maerwald> why does it have so few cores
2022-04-23 18:06:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> Rather run it on a bigger machine, for which I need $ :p
2022-04-23 18:06:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> Because I rented a cheap vps
2022-04-23 18:06:28 +0200 <maerwald> um
2022-04-23 18:06:37 +0200 <maerwald> ping HF
2022-04-23 18:06:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> I mean it's not that expensive, but poor phd
2022-04-23 18:06:56 +0200 <maerwald> 100$ per month should be cheap for them
2022-04-23 18:07:18 +0200 <maerwald> Hecate: can we make this happen?
2022-04-23 18:07:25 +0200 <Hecate> hello
2022-04-23 18:07:28 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2.1)
2022-04-23 18:07:36 +0200 <maerwald> we want a big machine for the haskell playground
2022-04-23 18:07:41 +0200 <maerwald> https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/play/paste/cd85IVb8/1
2022-04-23 18:07:45 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:07:50 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
2022-04-23 18:07:59 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro) (Client Quit)
2022-04-23 18:08:08 +0200 <Hecate> maerwald: you should contact haskell.org first I guess?
2022-04-23 18:08:13 +0200 <Hecate> they have the infra
2022-04-23 18:08:19 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
2022-04-23 18:08:42 +0200 <Hecate> maerwald: and Tom Ellis is on the board of Haskell.org btw
2022-04-23 18:08:45 +0200 <maerwald> this is not hosted on haskell.org
2022-04-23 18:08:48 +0200 <Hecate> this should
2022-04-23 18:09:05 +0200vicfred(~vicfred@user/vicfred)
2022-04-23 18:09:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> yeah I guess this shouldn't continue to be hosted on my personal domain :p
2022-04-23 18:09:09 +0200 <maerwald> not sure, that's up to tomsmeding
2022-04-23 18:09:09 +0200 <Hecate> this is too important to be left on someone's personal infra
2022-04-23 18:09:28 +0200 <Hecate> I mean, at a private individual's burden and cost
2022-04-23 18:09:28 +0200vicfred(~vicfred@user/vicfred) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 18:09:42 +0200 <Hecate> this is the kind of stuff that would benefit from mutualising the costs
2022-04-23 18:10:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> you guys figure this out, I'm going to make some food :p
2022-04-23 18:10:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> be back in a while
2022-04-23 18:10:27 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: we can prolly also make the ghc backend a microservice and scale it horizontally?
2022-04-23 18:10:45 +0200 <mikoto-chan> is there also a "namespace" for global packages with cabal?
2022-04-23 18:10:54 +0200 <Hecate> mikoto-chan: there isn't, and shouldn't
2022-04-23 18:11:10 +0200 <Hecate> if you're trying to do what I'm thinking you're trying to do: don't do it
2022-04-23 18:11:19 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro) (Client Quit)
2022-04-23 18:11:27 +0200 <mikoto-chan> Hecate: so even for a simple hello world that needs an external package I need to create a new project?
2022-04-23 18:11:44 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
2022-04-23 18:11:51 +0200 <mikoto-chan> what happens when I run `cabal install foo` in my home directory?
2022-04-23 18:12:05 +0200 <Hecate> mikoto-chan: it created an abomination and we learned our lesson
2022-04-23 18:12:15 +0200 <maerwald> mikoto-chan: https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/steps/#an-interactive-environment
2022-04-23 18:12:15 +0200 <Hecate> see: The Python ecosystem
2022-04-23 18:12:30 +0200 <maerwald> mikoto-chan: this explains how to add dependencies ad-hoc so you can use them in a repl
2022-04-23 18:12:41 +0200 <mikoto-chan> Hecate: idk about Python, I have a Go background
2022-04-23 18:12:46 +0200 <maerwald> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/steps/#using-external-packages-in-ghci rather
2022-04-23 18:12:49 +0200 <mikoto-chan> maerwald: thanks :)
2022-04-23 18:12:53 +0200 <geekosaur> if foo is a library, it installs in cabal's internal package database and does nothing else. you can't access it without e.g. cabal repl --build-depends=foo
2022-04-23 18:12:53 +0200 <mikoto-chan> oh
2022-04-23 18:13:10 +0200 <mikoto-chan> geekosaur: so cabal has a repl too?
2022-04-23 18:13:13 +0200 <Hecate> yes
2022-04-23 18:13:19 +0200 <geekosaur> if it's an executable, the executable is installed in ~/.cabal/bin (or windows equivalent)
2022-04-23 18:13:46 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-04-23 18:14:07 +0200 <geekosaur> "cabal repl" runs ghci with youtr dependencies. if you have no current project it uses a fake one, and you can use --build-depends to add packages to that fake one
2022-04-23 18:15:06 +0200 <mikoto-chan> thanks, that answers my question
2022-04-23 18:15:21 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2022-04-23 18:16:02 +0200 <monochrom> "A simple hello world" would not have any dependency other than what GHC already provides.
2022-04-23 18:16:26 +0200 <maerwald> monochrom: it needs 'say'
2022-04-23 18:16:39 +0200 <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/say-0.1.0.1/docs/Say.html :p
2022-04-23 18:16:50 +0200 <mikoto-chan> maerwald: XD
2022-04-23 18:16:51 +0200 <Hecate> hahaha
2022-04-23 18:17:46 +0200 <geekosaur> I have expected some kind of lambdasay (see cowsay)
2022-04-23 18:17:53 +0200 <geekosaur> *half expected
2022-04-23 18:18:12 +0200 <monochrom> Ugh the package is not an April 1st joke...
2022-04-23 18:18:17 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211)
2022-04-23 18:18:18 +0200 <albet70> if a language doesn't support tail call optimization, using fixed point call can avoid the recursive limit?
2022-04-23 18:19:13 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn)
2022-04-23 18:19:42 +0200 <monochrom> That depends on what else the language supports and the semantics of "fixed point call" in that language.
2022-04-23 18:20:00 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95732ec002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:20:06 +0200 <monochrom> Fully specify the language you have in mind, and then the question can be answered.
2022-04-23 18:20:26 +0200 <albet70> "monochrom :Fully specify the language you have in mind, and then the question can be answered.", python or javascript
2022-04-23 18:20:35 +0200 <monochrom> Broad "conceptual" "intuitive" vague questions don't work.
2022-04-23 18:21:15 +0200xff0x_(~xff0x@om126158190036.30.openmobile.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-04-23 18:21:15 +0200 <monochrom> What is "fixed point call" in Python?
2022-04-23 18:21:20 +0200 <albet70> fib _fib = _fib, call fib in the last of _fib, could avoid?
2022-04-23 18:21:42 +0200 <monochrom> Have you benchmarked that?
2022-04-23 18:21:50 +0200 <albet70> not yet
2022-04-23 18:21:55 +0200 <albet70> just wondering
2022-04-23 18:22:02 +0200 <mikoto-chan> monochrom: can you link me your Haskell writeups again?
2022-04-23 18:22:18 +0200 <monochrom> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/
2022-04-23 18:22:26 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: please also add "access to stackage LTS dependencies" to playground TODO. That shouldn't even be hard to implement via a script.
2022-04-23 18:22:45 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-04-23 18:24:52 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-04-23 18:26:56 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2022-04-23 18:27:32 +0200neurocyte8614492(~neurocyte@IP-094016064194.dynamic.medianet-world.de)
2022-04-23 18:27:32 +0200neurocyte8614492(~neurocyte@IP-094016064194.dynamic.medianet-world.de) (Changing host)
2022-04-23 18:27:32 +0200neurocyte8614492(~neurocyte@user/neurocyte)
2022-04-23 18:29:00 +0200dextaa4(~dextaa@user/dextaa)
2022-04-23 18:29:22 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2.1)
2022-04-23 18:29:27 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:30:00 +0200AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
2022-04-23 18:30:02 +0200 <albet70> how to construct a function f by its fixed point _f? if _f is defined
2022-04-23 18:30:09 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 18:30:24 +0200 <albet70> no with the 'const' way
2022-04-23 18:30:46 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2022-04-23 18:32:45 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@213.177.151.239) (Quit: mikoto-chan)
2022-04-23 18:32:59 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@213.177.151.239)
2022-04-23 18:33:40 +0200kenran(~kenran@200116b82b09c300fe68b4ac7bae351b.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
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2022-04-23 18:36:54 +0200sprout(~quassel@2a02-a45f-f170-1-b4a4-4f2b-ed80-5245.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:37:00 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::c90f)
2022-04-23 18:37:04 +0200 <hpc> i am not sure that it's possible
2022-04-23 18:37:29 +0200 <hpc> try doing it to a specific recursive definition, like the factorial function
2022-04-23 18:37:39 +0200gpncarl(~gpncarl@120.244.221.62) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:38:01 +0200 <monochrom> You should not even be sure what that question means. It's deranged.
2022-04-23 18:38:25 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:39:10 +0200gpncarl(~gpncarl@120.244.221.62)
2022-04-23 18:39:16 +0200dextaa4(~dextaa@user/dextaa) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 18:40:24 +0200 <EvanR> damn
2022-04-23 18:40:54 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@24.105.81.50) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:43:39 +0200gpncarl(~gpncarl@120.244.221.62) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:44:43 +0200gpncarl(~gpncarl@120.244.221.62)
2022-04-23 18:45:43 +0200 <EvanR> in context where optimization doesn't change behavior but only performance, tail call optimization should be called tail call not-brokenation
2022-04-23 18:46:27 +0200 <EvanR> TCNB
2022-04-23 18:47:11 +0200 <albet70> it's hard to implement? and why so many languages don't support it?
2022-04-23 18:47:25 +0200 <EvanR> I think most languages don't think it's important
2022-04-23 18:47:32 +0200 <albet70> I only know scheme and haskell support it
2022-04-23 18:47:42 +0200 <EvanR> scheme and haskell both support tail call not brokenation
2022-04-23 18:47:58 +0200 <EvanR> in wildly different ways
2022-04-23 18:48:19 +0200 <albet70> but scheme make it within its standard
2022-04-23 18:48:53 +0200gpncarl(~gpncarl@120.244.221.62) (Ping timeout: 247 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:48:59 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:49:04 +0200 <albet70> despite its so many variants implement
2022-04-23 18:49:06 +0200 <EvanR> stuff being not broken is a much more general concept and often not something you even bring up
2022-04-23 18:49:25 +0200 <EvanR> like, a lot of people just assume things aren't broken
2022-04-23 18:50:08 +0200 <EvanR> but schema and javascript both assume the same background function call strategy, using a call stack
2022-04-23 18:51:27 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-04-23 18:51:47 +0200 <EvanR> haskell's call by name stuff doesn't work that way, it happens recursive tail calling isn't automatically broken, so it awkward to even bring it up
2022-04-23 18:53:50 +0200 <EvanR> I guess it's more constructive to say javascript features broken recursion
2022-04-23 18:54:10 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@dslb-178-012-018-212.178.012.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2022-04-23 18:54:32 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211)
2022-04-23 18:54:44 +0200 <albet70> "call me by your name"
2022-04-23 18:57:18 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-04-23 18:57:27 +0200 <EvanR> tbf writing code in most languages as if it were scheme is probably bad
2022-04-23 18:57:47 +0200 <EvanR> your coworkers would revolt
2022-04-23 18:58:27 +0200 <EvanR> in haskell it's likely to lead to breakage too
2022-04-23 19:00:19 +0200 <mikoto-chan> maerwald: the real question is, why does say operate on the Text set by default and not String like print?
2022-04-23 19:01:19 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 19:01:32 +0200 <monochrom> String = [Char] gets old quickly. (One of the few things I agree with Snoyman.) (Yes Snoyman is involved, follow the links to see his post.)
2022-04-23 19:02:28 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-04-23 19:04:00 +0200_ht(~quassel@231-169-21-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
2022-04-23 19:04:58 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2022-04-23 19:05:02 +0200 <EvanR> the next real question might be, why doesn't say operate on the abstract intersection of things it would need from Text or String
2022-04-23 19:05:16 +0200 <monochrom> EvanR: Haskell's is s/name/need/. The difference: "(\x -> x*x)(2+2)" do I get two copies of "2+2"? call-by-name: yes. call-by-need: no.
2022-04-23 19:05:41 +0200 <EvanR> I was pretty sure I used the wrong call by
2022-04-23 19:06:51 +0200 <monochrom> Perhaps there is insufficient interest in the "say" package altogether to advance on that front (or any front).
2022-04-23 19:07:36 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211)
2022-04-23 19:08:00 +0200 <monochrom> Like, I know the issue, but I have another solution already. Have a service thread dedicated for putStrLn, every other thread has to message it to output to stdout.
2022-04-23 19:08:55 +0200 <monochrom> Even putStrLn itself (generally GHC's Handle system) already has some degree of atomicity.
2022-04-23 19:09:00 +0200 <EvanR> I guess that improves the random ordering of characters to random ordering of lines
2022-04-23 19:11:13 +0200econo(uid147250@user/econo)
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2022-04-23 19:19:34 +0200abhixec(~abhinav@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2022-04-23 19:22:08 +0200zmv(~zmv@2804:431:c7f2:bc76:d25c:c233:e0ba:665f)
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2022-04-23 19:22:38 +0200roconnor(~roconnor@coq/roconnor)
2022-04-23 19:23:11 +0200 <roconnor> Is there a varient of Data.Array.! somewhere that returns a Maybe element?
2022-04-23 19:24:54 +0200 <monochrom> I think no. vector has it.
2022-04-23 19:25:17 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211)
2022-04-23 19:27:04 +0200 <EvanR> you can cook one up using Control.Exception, maybe
2022-04-23 19:27:33 +0200 <geekosaur> or with bounds
2022-04-23 19:27:58 +0200 <roconnor> ya, I've written my own for now.
2022-04-23 19:28:07 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah please use "inRange" instead of waiting for an async exception.
2022-04-23 19:28:20 +0200 <EvanR> double the bounds checking, since it already has to check bounds to throw an exception xD
2022-04-23 19:28:21 +0200 <roconnor> but I'm at the point where I'll need to write my own module just to export it to various places.
2022-04-23 19:28:53 +0200 <EvanR> I guess checking bounds combined with unsafe index
2022-04-23 19:29:30 +0200 <roconnor> I'm sure Lens has something.
2022-04-23 19:29:33 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah it should have been in the standard library.
2022-04-23 19:30:13 +0200 <monochrom> Who knows, probably someone proposed this 10 years ago already and the library comittee is still like "the jury is still out on this" haha.
2022-04-23 19:30:46 +0200 <geekosaur> I'd thought array already had at :(
2022-04-23 19:31:02 +0200 <roconnor> It would obviously be called Data.Array.lookup
2022-04-23 19:31:52 +0200 <roconnor> maybe it means I should just use Vector. :')
2022-04-23 19:32:15 +0200 <monochrom> Leslie Lamport speaks of "the part-time parliament". You would think that such a parliament would be the worst committee ever.
2022-04-23 19:32:15 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-04-23 19:32:54 +0200 <EvanR> I respect a committee that veers on the side of doing nothing, as opposed to messing everything up regularly
2022-04-23 19:33:12 +0200 <dolio> Pretty sure the library committee would say not to use Array.
2022-04-23 19:33:23 +0200 <roconnor> dolio: oh really?
2022-04-23 19:33:46 +0200sprout(~quassel@2a02-a467-ccd6-1-1ca0-7883-960c-afa4.fixed6.kpn.net)
2022-04-23 19:33:51 +0200 <roconnor> Okay then I will switch to Vector.
2022-04-23 19:34:04 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, there's been a replacement for like 15 years.
2022-04-23 19:34:49 +0200 <dolio> I think array is only still around for backwards compatibility.
2022-04-23 19:35:33 +0200roconnoropens up GHC to find ... type Array i e = (i,Vector e) j/k
2022-04-23 19:36:10 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-04-23 19:36:37 +0200 <monochrom> There is a circular-dependency obstacle discouraging that.
2022-04-23 19:37:00 +0200 <monochrom> Either that, or "oh so that's why GHC is a 500MB download and a 2GB install"
2022-04-23 19:37:06 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by allbery_b)))
2022-04-23 19:37:07 +0200allbery_b(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2022-04-23 19:37:10 +0200allbery_bgeekosaur
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2022-04-23 19:42:10 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95732ec002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-04-23 19:45:23 +0200 <roconnor> dolio: How about DiffArray :P
2022-04-23 19:45:34 +0200littlebobeep(~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 19:46:54 +0200 <dolio> I never use it.
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2022-04-23 20:23:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: horizontally scalable backend sounds like a great idea; stackage added to TODO
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2022-04-23 20:39:50 +0200 <Brandon_IX> why does [x | x <- [20..1], 20 `mod` x == 0] give me an empty list?
2022-04-23 20:40:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> > ([20..1], [20,19..1])
2022-04-23 20:40:11 +0200 <lambdabot> ([],[20,19,18,17,16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1])
2022-04-23 20:40:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> the step is +1 by default, unless you explicitly override it
2022-04-23 20:40:45 +0200 <geekosaur> the .. syntax is not "smart" and does not realize you want it to count backwards
2022-04-23 20:41:04 +0200 <Brandon_IX> perfect tyvm
2022-04-23 20:41:20 +0200 <monochrom> But it's smart and realize that [20, 19 .. 1] means the step is 19-20.
2022-04-23 20:42:34 +0200bahamas(~lucian@37.251.222.126) (Quit: leaving)
2022-04-23 20:42:46 +0200 <monochrom> As a result if I try to translate BASIC "for i=37 to 3 step -4" I have to think "OK what is 37-4 again?"
2022-04-23 20:42:59 +0200 <Brandon_IX> it's probably a naive questions to ask but couldn't the interpreter just check if the first number is greater than the second
2022-04-23 20:43:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> the [..] syntax technically also works for types that don't have a (<) operation
2022-04-23 20:43:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> :t \x -> [x..x]
2022-04-23 20:43:30 +0200 <lambdabot> Enum a => a -> [a]
2022-04-23 20:43:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> only has an Enum constraint, not an Ord
2022-04-23 20:44:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> though that's a weak argument because Enum also includes a bijection with Int...
2022-04-23 20:44:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> so I guess the correct answer is "dunno, it doesn't"
2022-04-23 20:44:38 +0200 <monochrom> Because there are times I want [5..4] to be the empty list.
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2022-04-23 20:57:59 +0200sedman(~sedman@45.40.14.156) ()
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2022-04-23 21:00:26 +0200 <Hecate> monochrom: you mean ]4;5[?
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2022-04-23 21:03:07 +0200 <hpc> Hecate: that evaluates to ꙱
2022-04-23 21:04:04 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-04-23 21:05:30 +0200 <monochrom> I mean [5..4].
2022-04-23 21:07:42 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
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2022-04-23 21:08:09 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2022-04-23 21:08:41 +0200 <monochrom> Consider the mathematical convention of "Sigma i=5 to 7" to mean 3 terms, "i=5 to 5" to mean one term, "i=5 to 4" to mean the empty sum.
2022-04-23 21:09:42 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 21:11:54 +0200 <geekosaur> also consider the case of [5..x] where x might be 4. sometimes you want to reverse them, sometimes you want it to be empty
2022-04-23 21:12:12 +0200 <geekosaur> so has[21:15:33] *** Joins: machinedgod (~machinedg@24.105.81.50)
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2022-04-23 22:26:07 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2022-04-23 22:26:27 +0200 <exarkun> if I have a record type X that has a value of Y as a field and there is an instance of Z for Y, is there a succinct way to make an instance of Z for X that just uses Y and Y's instance?
2022-04-23 22:28:10 +0200 <exarkun> (Alternatively, what should I want in Haskell for cases where I wanted https://github.com/twisted/twisted/blob/trunk/src/twisted/python/components.py#L178 in Python?)
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2022-04-23 23:00:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> exarkun: is that Y the only field of the record? If so, `deriving via`
2022-04-23 23:01:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> otherwise, not possible in general; for example, how would that work for Z = Monoid and its mempty method? What should it invent for the other fields of X
2022-04-23 23:02:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> or <> from Semigroup, for that matter
2022-04-23 23:02:47 +0200renzhi(~xp@2607:fa49:6500:b100::19a0) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 23:02:49 +0200 <exarkun> hm, indeed.
2022-04-23 23:14:39 +0200 <Sgeo> With Isos, do I need to think about type changes? s->a and b->t, or is it always s->a and a->s?
2022-04-23 23:15:40 +0200renzhi(~xp@2607:fa49:6500:b100::1d4a)
2022-04-23 23:17:12 +0200ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2022-04-23 23:19:35 +0200Guest81(~Guest81@172.77.31.247)
2022-04-23 23:20:39 +0200 <Guest81> Trying to get into haskell again. Anything you'd recommend besides the learn you a haskell?
2022-04-23 23:21:15 +0200 <monochrom> Perhaps my http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html can help.
2022-04-23 23:21:20 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
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2022-04-23 23:21:20 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-04-23 23:21:47 +0200 <geekosaur> @where books
2022-04-23 23:21:47 +0200 <lambdabot> https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books, see also @where LYAH, RWH, YAHT, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, HTAC, TwT, FoP, PFAD, WYAH, non-haskell-books
2022-04-23 23:22:03 +0200 <hpc> https://www.haskell.org/documentation/
2022-04-23 23:22:03 +0200 <geekosaur> also
2022-04-23 23:22:07 +0200 <geekosaur> @where cis194
2022-04-23 23:22:07 +0200 <lambdabot> https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html
2022-04-23 23:22:51 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211)
2022-04-23 23:23:06 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2022-04-23 23:23:49 +0200 <geekosaur> @where+ books https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html, see also @where LYAH, RWH, YAHT, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, HTAC, TwT, FoP, PFAD, WYAH, non-haskell-books
2022-04-23 23:23:49 +0200 <lambdabot> Okay.
2022-04-23 23:24:19 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95732ec002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-04-23 23:24:20 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-04-23 23:24:48 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-04-23 23:26:02 +0200 <geekosaur> @where learn
2022-04-23 23:26:02 +0200 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Learning_Haskell
2022-04-23 23:27:03 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-04-23 23:28:29 +0200 <Guest81> Oh thank you all. Seems this community is active and great! Thank you all very much. I'll be back once I get a little under my belt as melas0nos
2022-04-23 23:29:10 +0200ystael(~ystael@user/ystael)
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2022-04-23 23:50:28 +0200kayprish(~kayprish@cable-24-135-254-227.dynamic.sbb.rs) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-04-23 23:50:48 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c73533234d791baa780baa3f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-04-23 23:50:57 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-04-23 23:54:07 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc1a:6000:9ad:a6d1:4aec:2764)
2022-04-23 23:54:20 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc1a:6000:9ad:a6d1:4aec:2764) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-04-23 23:56:45 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::c90f)
2022-04-23 23:57:24 +0200redb(~nmh@136.49.49.211)