IRCBrowse

2022/01/16

2022-01-16 00:01:31 +0000 <zero> the Applicative instance for pairs is interesting. it's Monoid a => Applicative (a,) where pure = (mempty,)
2022-01-16 00:01:36 +0000 <zero> did not know that
2022-01-16 00:02:28 +0000 <geekosaur> it has to be able to get a value for the other half of the pair from somewhere
2022-01-16 00:02:46 +0000 <zero> yup, makes sense
2022-01-16 00:03:15 +0000hsiktas[m](~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4) (Quit: Reconnecting)
2022-01-16 00:03:31 +0000hsiktas[m](~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4)
2022-01-16 00:03:46 +0000 <EvanR> when I first saw return and tried to understand it, I was confused because of its name
2022-01-16 00:04:06 +0000 <EvanR> also for 5 seconds
2022-01-16 00:04:42 +0000 <geekosaur> return not being what it sounded like was one of the first things I encountered in chatter after joining #haskell
2022-01-16 00:05:22 +0000 <EvanR> at least pure doesn't have that kind of baggage, and you immediately know it's not making something pure because everything is pure anyway
2022-01-16 00:05:37 +0000 <EvanR> because this is HAASSKEELLLLLLLL
2022-01-16 00:05:50 +0000 <zero> (:
2022-01-16 00:06:11 +0000zerounsafely performs IO
2022-01-16 00:06:19 +0000 <jackdk> :o
2022-01-16 00:06:20 +0000 <EvanR> also who the hell named pure that
2022-01-16 00:06:52 +0000 <zero> i'm more upset with "otherwise"
2022-01-16 00:06:58 +0000 <zero> way to long
2022-01-16 00:07:13 +0000 <geekosaur> frankly it's better than "t"
2022-01-16 00:07:53 +0000 <ephemient> you could always write | True if you want
2022-01-16 00:07:56 +0000hsiktas[m](~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4) (Client Quit)
2022-01-16 00:08:11 +0000 <zero> not readable, not canonical
2022-01-16 00:08:12 +0000hsiktas[m](~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4)
2022-01-16 00:09:01 +0000 <geekosaur> and they couldn't get away with reusing "else"
2022-01-16 00:09:11 +0000 <zero> i wonder if...
2022-01-16 00:09:14 +0000 <zero> brb
2022-01-16 00:09:30 +0000benin(~benin@183.82.30.17)
2022-01-16 00:09:30 +0000hsiktas[m](~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4) (Client Quit)
2022-01-16 00:09:46 +0000hsiktas[m](~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4)
2022-01-16 00:10:01 +0000 <EvanR> otherwise is readable
2022-01-16 00:10:15 +0000 <EvanR> code is read more times than it's written... unless it's my code
2022-01-16 00:11:51 +0000 <lechner> so true
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2022-01-16 00:14:52 +0000alx741(~alx741@157.100.93.160)
2022-01-16 00:20:09 +0000 <lechner> Hi, how can i daisy-chain the SQL statements starting in line 179 please? the error is below. Session vs Session () https://paste.tomsmeding.com/C8cs9CTz
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2022-01-16 00:22:45 +0000 <geekosaur> you're misreading the error. you're passing it a Session (), it wants a Transaction ()
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2022-01-16 00:26:08 +0000zero(~z@user/zero) (haskell)
2022-01-16 00:26:21 +0000zzz(~z@user/zero)
2022-01-16 00:26:44 +0000 <zzz> is there an extension to make shadowing illegal?
2022-01-16 00:27:24 +0000 <zzz> or "overloading", i think it's the most used term arond here
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2022-01-16 00:28:59 +0000 <geekosaur> -Wname-shadowing -Werror ?
2022-01-16 00:29:22 +0000 <geekosaur> (someday it will be possible to write -Werror=name-shadowing, but not currently)
2022-01-16 00:29:24 +0000 <ephemient> or -Werror=name-shadowing if you don't want to turn on -Werror for everything else
2022-01-16 00:29:26 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@24.105.81.50) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-01-16 00:29:30 +0000 <ephemient> isn't it possible now?
2022-01-16 00:29:32 +0000 <geekosaur> oh, that does work now?
2022-01-16 00:29:38 +0000 <geekosaur> I thought it wasn't in ghc
2022-01-16 00:29:52 +0000 <zzz> nice, thanks!
2022-01-16 00:29:54 +0000 <dmj`> ghc --show-options | grep shadow --color
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2022-01-16 00:30:43 +0000 <ephemient> seems to work as I expect in GHC 8.10: > Main.hs:4:19: error: [-Wname-shadowing, -Werror=name-shadowing] This binding for ‘main’ shadows the existing binding …
2022-01-16 00:35:22 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@24.105.81.50)
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2022-01-16 00:40:49 +0000 <EvanR> wat, without shadowing how do I pretend I'm overwriting vars in do notation xD
2022-01-16 00:41:09 +0000SummerSonw(~The_viole@203.77.49.232)
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2022-01-16 00:43:04 +0000 <geekosaur> ew
2022-01-16 00:43:25 +0000 <EvanR> x, x', x'', x''', x'''' is too confusing!
2022-01-16 00:44:39 +0000 <ephemient> mdo x <- pure $ x + 1; pure x -- 🙃
2022-01-16 00:44:48 +0000 <pavonia> x, x', x'', x'3, x'4 etc.
2022-01-16 00:45:29 +0000 <EvanR> x_i x_i+1 x_i+2
2022-01-16 00:45:35 +0000 <EvanR> with editor support to show fancy
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2022-01-16 00:46:17 +0000alx741(~alx741@157.100.93.160)
2022-01-16 00:46:28 +0000 <EvanR> and language support to make i work
2022-01-16 00:47:21 +0000 <ephemient> > xᵢ + xᵢ₊₁ + xᵢ₊₂
2022-01-16 00:47:22 +0000 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: error: lexical error at character '\8321'
2022-01-16 00:50:31 +0000 <pavonia> Why doesn't it accept general Unicode digits in identifiers?
2022-01-16 00:50:31 +0000alx741(~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-01-16 00:51:46 +0000 <EvanR> > let xᵢ = 'c' in xᵢ
2022-01-16 00:51:47 +0000 <lambdabot> 'c'
2022-01-16 00:51:53 +0000 <EvanR> \o/
2022-01-16 00:54:41 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-01-16 00:57:53 +0000mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5cdd:f000::55f8)
2022-01-16 01:00:57 +0000zzzfacepalms
2022-01-16 01:01:30 +0000 <zzz> i thought no-name-shadowing would give me the warnings
2022-01-16 01:01:47 +0000 <zzz> but it's name-shadowing
2022-01-16 01:02:13 +0000 <zzz> "no" refers to the warning
2022-01-16 01:02:30 +0000 <zzz> not to the shadowing
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2022-01-16 01:27:42 +0000alx741(~alx741@157.100.93.160)
2022-01-16 01:29:39 +0000 <zzz> why does `main = pure 7` print `7`?
2022-01-16 01:30:12 +0000 <EvanR> in ghci ?
2022-01-16 01:30:48 +0000 <tommd> It doesnt' in the context of a Haskell language specification or ghc-compiled program.
2022-01-16 01:31:00 +0000 <zzz> ah ok
2022-01-16 01:31:09 +0000 <zzz> so it's a ghci quirk
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2022-01-16 01:31:23 +0000 <lechner> geekosaur: thanks! it took ages and is ugly, but it works. best of all, it makes sense & i'm in love with it somehow
2022-01-16 01:31:24 +0000 <EvanR> if you type main in ghci, it'll execute the IO action and return the result, and print it
2022-01-16 01:31:51 +0000 <EvanR> works with any IO action in ghci (that returns something that can Show)
2022-01-16 01:32:38 +0000 <EvanR> and if there's no Show... it prints nothing... apparently
2022-01-16 01:32:50 +0000 <zzz> EvanR: ok thanks. i understand how that's useful but it caused a moment of confusion for me
2022-01-16 01:32:58 +0000 <geekosaur> yes. this is documented in the ghc user manual
2022-01-16 01:33:26 +0000 <geekosaur> along with a way to change what typeclass it uses, so in principle you could use a prettyprinting typeclass instead
2022-01-16 01:33:45 +0000 <zzz> that's nice
2022-01-16 01:34:15 +0000 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html#using-a-custom-interactiv…
2022-01-16 01:34:20 +0000 <EvanR> oh wow
2022-01-16 01:34:50 +0000 <ephemient> ghc should only cares what the type of main is in the main module when it's building an executable
2022-01-16 01:36:52 +0000 <geekosaur> yes, i only cares about the type of Main.main (or whatever entry point is specified by -main-is)
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2022-01-16 01:53:57 +0000 <justsomeguy> Why should I care that kinds exist? What are they useful for?
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2022-01-16 01:59:01 +0000drewolson(~drewolson@user/drewolson)
2022-01-16 01:59:15 +0000 <EvanR> probably good when you get a kind mismatch, i.e. tried to use f on a when f doesn't take any arguments
2022-01-16 01:59:31 +0000 <EvanR> "don't care until it saves your ass"
2022-01-16 01:59:53 +0000ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2022-01-16 01:59:56 +0000 <pavonia> Kinds are to types what types are to values. So they are useful for "type-safe" type-level programming
2022-01-16 02:00:27 +0000 <EvanR> stops you from putting wrong number of arguments to a type constructor among other things
2022-01-16 02:00:47 +0000 <EvanR> guides you to what sort of things can be Functor, or Monad
2022-01-16 02:00:53 +0000 <EvanR> or what can't be
2022-01-16 02:02:41 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
2022-01-16 02:02:53 +0000 <pavonia> What do we call the next level, btw, to get type-safe kinds?
2022-01-16 02:03:06 +0000tired(~tired@user/tired) (Quit: /)
2022-01-16 02:03:09 +0000 <EvanR> sorts, then snaps, then crackles, then pops
2022-01-16 02:03:30 +0000 <EvanR> or cumulative hierarchy of types
2022-01-16 02:03:44 +0000 <pavonia> Ah right, I've heard of sorts before
2022-01-16 02:04:04 +0000 <pavonia> Is that already a thing in GHC?
2022-01-16 02:04:17 +0000 <EvanR> * :: BOX ?
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2022-01-16 02:34:53 +0000 <EvanR> that might have been removed to make way for dependent haskell
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2022-01-16 02:56:21 +0000 <jackdk> yeah the axiom Type :: Type was added by the extension -XTypeInType
2022-01-16 02:57:31 +0000 <jackdk> the extension is now deprecated because it's always-on, now that the rework in GHC is solid
2022-01-16 02:58:05 +0000 <EvanR> the unreasonable effectiveness of Type in Type
2022-01-16 02:58:29 +0000 <EvanR> hey, martin lof originally defined it so
2022-01-16 03:01:59 +0000 <EvanR> can I take a moment to complement the base data structure Data.List.NonEmpty, it is surprisingly nice and somehow isn't hell to integrate with other stuff
2022-01-16 03:02:14 +0000 <EvanR> unlike anything other than Int for integers
2022-01-16 03:03:00 +0000 <EvanR> also it's required by sconcat
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2022-01-16 03:47:41 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@client-8-72.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
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2022-01-16 03:54:14 +0000 <zzz> sorts snaps crackles pops that's a joke, right? i believe anything at this point
2022-01-16 04:00:45 +0000yauhsien_(~yauhsien@61-231-24-192.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-01-16 04:00:45 +0000yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-24-192.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-01-16 04:09:26 +0000 <EvanR> according to a physics book I read, the derivative of acceleration is jerk. The derivative of jerk is snap. The derivative of snap is crackle. And the derivative of crackle is pop
2022-01-16 04:09:43 +0000 <EvanR> so the joke is on us
2022-01-16 04:13:03 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2022-01-16 04:17:02 +0000little_mac(~little_ma@2601:410:4300:3ce0:c8a9:440b:1eee:6f25)
2022-01-16 04:24:11 +0000SummerSonw(~The_viole@203.77.49.232)
2022-01-16 04:26:17 +0000mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5cdd:f000::55f8) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2022-01-16 04:29:48 +0000 <zzz> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth,_fifth,_and_sixth_derivatives_of_position
2022-01-16 04:30:03 +0000meer(~delicacie@c-98-208-218-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-01-16 04:30:41 +0000 <zzz> great
2022-01-16 04:36:26 +0000Morrow[m](~morrowmma@2001:470:69fc:105::1d0)
2022-01-16 04:42:32 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-01-16 04:44:18 +0000 <EvanR> Char :: *
2022-01-16 04:44:22 +0000 <EvanR> * :: BOX
2022-01-16 04:44:30 +0000 <EvanR> BOX :: WithAFox
2022-01-16 04:44:41 +0000 <EvanR> WithAFox :: GreenEggsAndHam
2022-01-16 04:46:43 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
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2022-01-16 05:42:48 +0000gentauro(~gentauro@user/gentauro)
2022-01-16 05:52:24 +0000mbuf(~Shakthi@110.225.247.38)
2022-01-16 05:55:02 +0000deadmarshal(~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-01-16 05:58:47 +0000tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2022-01-16 06:00:12 +0000tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Client Quit)
2022-01-16 06:08:17 +0000 <zzz> how does Solo differ from Identity?
2022-01-16 06:09:16 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-01-16 06:10:15 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2022-01-16 06:11:00 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Client Quit)
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2022-01-16 06:15:48 +0000mbuf(~Shakthi@110.225.247.38) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-01-16 06:16:10 +0000 <ephemient> zzz, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/Data-Tuple.html#t:Solo explains
2022-01-16 06:16:31 +0000kaph(~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2022-01-16 06:17:41 +0000 <zzz> seems equivalent to me
2022-01-16 06:18:13 +0000 <zzz> oh nvm
2022-01-16 06:18:25 +0000 <zzz> Identity is a newtype
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2022-01-16 13:14:29 +0000 <Inst> haskell is just painful
2022-01-16 13:14:30 +0000 <Inst> :(
2022-01-16 13:15:28 +0000 <Inst> okay, even weirder stuff since very few people do winhaskell
2022-01-16 13:16:08 +0000 <Inst> i'm trying to figure out if hready can be used to detect keypresses (answer is no)
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2022-01-16 13:16:41 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@24.105.81.50)
2022-01-16 13:16:51 +0000 <Inst> but, when I try to do a function application via fmap and bool into io handle, I get false. When I try to do the same via lambda case, I get true
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2022-01-16 13:24:26 +0000 <xsperry> Inst, you can foreign import c_getch and c_kbhit from conio.h
2022-01-16 13:25:01 +0000 <Inst> i'll try haskeline first, i was told to try that
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2022-01-16 13:30:07 +0000 <xsperry> s/c_getch/getch
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2022-01-16 13:34:23 +0000sha296(~shakil@2409:4060:208:b748:90bc:94d2:ef56:d69d)
2022-01-16 13:34:39 +0000 <sha296> Hello
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2022-01-16 13:36:42 +0000DNH(~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:2032:bbef:e5a8:56de)
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2022-01-16 13:41:43 +0000sha296(~shakil@2409:4060:208:b748:90bc:94d2:ef56:d69d)
2022-01-16 13:41:57 +0000 <sha296> Hi
2022-01-16 13:42:30 +0000 <xsperry> hi
2022-01-16 13:43:18 +0000 <sha296> I am a beginner when it comes to Haskell
2022-01-16 13:43:19 +0000Guest1715(~Guest17@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-01-16 13:43:42 +0000 <sha296> I am looking forward to benefit from you people
2022-01-16 13:46:55 +0000 <polyphem> sha296: whats your background, and where are you at on your journey into haskell ?
2022-01-16 13:47:03 +0000mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5cdd:f000::55f8)
2022-01-16 13:47:47 +0000 <sha296> My background is in discrete maths and theoretical CS (algorithms specifically)
2022-01-16 13:48:02 +0000 <sha296> Currently, I am looking into some books
2022-01-16 13:48:06 +0000FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte) (Quit: Quit)
2022-01-16 13:48:20 +0000 <sha296> How does one quote?
2022-01-16 13:48:28 +0000 <sha296> I am using hexchat?
2022-01-16 13:49:32 +0000 <kitzman> Hm, beginner question: how can a type be in scope, but its data constructor not?
2022-01-16 13:50:09 +0000FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte)
2022-01-16 13:50:12 +0000 <polyphem> kitzman: a module exports a typename but not its constructors
2022-01-16 13:50:53 +0000 <polyphem> thats how encapsulation is done in haskell
2022-01-16 13:50:59 +0000deadmarshal(~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
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2022-01-16 13:51:32 +0000 <polyphem> usually there are also some "smart constructors" i.e. functions that construct the ype for you in scope
2022-01-16 13:51:41 +0000 <kitzman> oh. i see - so i would have to manipulate the struct just inside the module (and probs this will be beneficial for my code as well)
2022-01-16 13:52:17 +0000sha296(~shakil@2409:4060:208:b748:90bc:94d2:ef56:d69d)
2022-01-16 13:52:21 +0000 <polyphem> is it your own type/module ?
2022-01-16 13:52:44 +0000 <kitzman> yes. between the Endpoint and the Service layer.
2022-01-16 13:52:56 +0000 <geekosaur> sha296, irc doesn't have built-in quoting. you might want to try matrix.org as a more modern interface to irc
2022-01-16 13:53:04 +0000 <geekosaur> should be the same room name (#haskell)
2022-01-16 13:53:16 +0000 <sha296> Oh, I see
2022-01-16 13:53:23 +0000 <polyphem> in the module export list you exportet the type , and not its constructors
2022-01-16 13:53:30 +0000 <sha296> I do have matrix but I prefer xmpp
2022-01-16 13:54:44 +0000 <polyphem> module ServiceLayer (MyType) where ... exports only the type, wheras module ServiceLayer (MyType(..)) where ... exports also the constructors
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2022-01-16 13:55:51 +0000 <kitzman> polyphem: thank you, now I see my mistake
2022-01-16 13:56:24 +0000 <polyphem> not necessarily a mistake, it depends what you want to encapsulate/export ...
2022-01-16 13:56:50 +0000 <kitzman> yeah, I think it makes sense to do this in this particular case
2022-01-16 13:57:15 +0000 <polyphem> kitzman: thats your design desicion to make :)
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2022-01-16 13:58:15 +0000 <geekosaur> not aware of any xmpp gateways, sorry
2022-01-16 13:58:30 +0000 <geekosaur> just matrix and irccloud
2022-01-16 13:58:48 +0000 <polyphem> kitzman: check out "smart constructors" to get a broader idea ... usefull
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2022-01-16 14:11:04 +0000 <kitzman> thank you I will ^^
2022-01-16 14:11:39 +0000deadmarshal(~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
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2022-01-16 14:13:12 +0000 <zzz> how does `length = sum . map (const 1)` differ from the "normal" way or is it just a matter of style?
2022-01-16 14:13:29 +0000 <zzz> s/^how//
2022-01-16 14:13:48 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-157.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2022-01-16 14:14:25 +0000 <polyphem> zzz: sum itself is a fold , you are adding another tracersal of the list by map
2022-01-16 14:14:44 +0000 <polyphem> *traversal
2022-01-16 14:16:38 +0000 <zzz> isn't it subject to fusion?
2022-01-16 14:16:48 +0000 <polyphem> so instead of just folding , you are folding after mapping , which might get optimized
2022-01-16 14:17:23 +0000 <zzz> ah yes, i'm assuming optimization
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2022-01-16 14:17:47 +0000 <polyphem> i guess , but i really dont know much about optimization , i guess so
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2022-01-16 14:19:38 +0000 <zzz> i expect this kind of optimization to be trivial but am also not sure
2022-01-16 14:20:29 +0000 <polyphem> its a "readable" implementation which is good IMO
2022-01-16 14:22:00 +0000 <Sqaure> anyone know if there exist some trick (using TH presumably) to turn servant "Api" types into typeclasses. I find their approach gives horrible error messages. Every type error become a "Api type" error.
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2022-01-16 14:51:36 +0000 <carbolymer> what was the name of the GHC extension which was disabling lazines? something like StrictHaskell
2022-01-16 14:53:00 +0000 <carbolymer> Strict
2022-01-16 14:53:04 +0000 <yushyin> carbolymer: https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/strict.html
2022-01-16 14:53:59 +0000 <geekosaur> or StrictData. note that using -XStrict means you can't use most of the Prelude, which relies on laziness
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2022-01-16 15:01:20 +0000 <carbolymer> thx
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2022-01-16 15:56:23 +0000 <cheater> people still haven't made a strict prelude?
2022-01-16 15:56:50 +0000yehoshua[m]Yehoshua
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2022-01-16 16:05:49 +0000 <Sqaure> I guess im not seeing the obvious but i had to create this function to convert my Servant app actions to Servants context : eitherToHandler :: (e -> ServantErr) -> Either e a -> Handler a ; eitherToHandler f = Handler . withExceptT f . liftEither
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2022-01-16 16:30:59 +0000 <sprout> > nil
2022-01-16 16:31:00 +0000 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: nil
2022-01-16 16:31:19 +0000 <sprout> > []
2022-01-16 16:31:21 +0000 <lambdabot> []
2022-01-16 16:31:27 +0000 <sprout> > head []
2022-01-16 16:31:29 +0000 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
2022-01-16 16:34:45 +0000shapr(~user@2601:7c0:c37c:46d0:2bce:110:d6ba:469e)
2022-01-16 16:40:42 +0000mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-01-16 16:41:38 +0000cjay-cjay
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2022-01-16 16:47:27 +0000spaceseller(~spacesell@31.147.205.13)
2022-01-16 16:49:31 +0000 <zzz> why would you want a strict prelude?
2022-01-16 16:50:53 +0000spaceseller(~spacesell@31.147.205.13) (Client Quit)
2022-01-16 16:50:56 +0000 <EvanR> what even is a strict prelude
2022-01-16 16:53:32 +0000 <zzz> i never got this fixation on strictness
2022-01-16 16:54:45 +0000 <zzz> haskell is *the* lazy language, and actually does it well. why do people keep trying to make it strict?
2022-01-16 16:54:48 +0000teddyc(theodorc@cassarossa.samfundet.no) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2022-01-16 16:55:12 +0000 <jkaye> It's very easy to leak memory unintentionally with lazy semantics by default. It can be hard to find these leaks, and similarly hard to reason about them
2022-01-16 16:55:17 +0000 <geekosaur> because figuring out where laziness is / isn't appropriate is hard
2022-01-16 16:55:26 +0000 <jkaye> So, it becomes an issue for a lot of people, and they look for a solution
2022-01-16 16:55:41 +0000 <jkaye> These problems are well-documented and (I think) well agreed upon within the community at large
2022-01-16 16:55:51 +0000 <geekosaur> that said, I kinda feel like you lose the point of purity, and thereby the point of Haskell, if you lose laziness
2022-01-16 16:56:26 +0000xb0o2(~xb0o2@user/xb0o2)
2022-01-16 16:56:46 +0000 <Rembane> I'd prefer tooling that helped me with finding where my code has the wrong amount of laziness rather than throwing it all out.
2022-01-16 16:57:54 +0000tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-01-16 16:57:58 +0000 <EvanR> a visualizer of the program-in-motion, tony stark style
2022-01-16 16:58:11 +0000 <EvanR> you point at a hologram in space and see the space leaking in real time
2022-01-16 16:58:48 +0000 <jkaye> Rembane, I tend to agree. IF it somehow became easier to work with/reason about I think a lot of the questions/complaints would melt. I'd use a tool like that for sure
2022-01-16 16:59:09 +0000 <EvanR> ghc-vis is good but not that
2022-01-16 17:00:03 +0000 <geekosaur> the ghc devs and folks working woith them are still wokring on tooling based around the eventlog that is supposed to help with that
2022-01-16 17:00:14 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2022-01-16 17:00:18 +0000 <Rembane> geekosaur: That's really cool.
2022-01-16 17:00:19 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-01-16 17:00:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-01-16 17:00:57 +0000Constraintegic(~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-130.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
2022-01-16 17:02:08 +0000 <geekosaur> that said, it is notable that even ghc devs have big problems finding and reasoning about laziness leaks
2022-01-16 17:02:22 +0000 <geekosaur> but I have to think turning Haskell into a worse OCaml is not the solution
2022-01-16 17:03:07 +0000 <Rembane> Maybe laziness leaks are really hard to keep track of?
2022-01-16 17:04:00 +0000 <geekosaur> they are. but that's what the eventlog is about
2022-01-16 17:05:26 +0000 <EvanR> if you're expecting to get away with very little heap usage, you can turn the heap limit low which acts like gutter bumpers during testing. But real code might need to use a bunch of space at some point, and not be a bug
2022-01-16 17:05:49 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-01-16 17:05:49 +0000 <EvanR> how does a tool know the diff
2022-01-16 17:05:54 +0000zmt01(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
2022-01-16 17:06:11 +0000 <jkaye> One super naive way would be to see if the memory is being used by thunks vs. values
2022-01-16 17:06:34 +0000 <jkaye> 10Gb of thunks is probably not what someone meant to do. Operative word being probably, because I'm sure there are situations where that is intended
2022-01-16 17:06:56 +0000 <jkaye> But for the type of thing that I'm referring to, it would be strategies similar to that
2022-01-16 17:06:57 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-01-16 17:07:07 +0000 <jkaye> I'm sure smarter GHC people could come up with much better ways
2022-01-16 17:08:20 +0000teddyc(theodorc@cassarossa.samfundet.no)
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2022-01-16 17:13:08 +0000Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@static-198-54-131-125.cust.tzulo.com)
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2022-01-16 17:17:58 +0000 <geekosaur> there's some refinements to that, like you can ignore thunks that never make it out of the nursery
2022-01-16 17:18:01 +0000ProfSimm(~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg)
2022-01-16 17:19:43 +0000bontaq(~user@ool-45779fe5.dyn.optonline.net)
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2022-01-16 17:22:21 +0000 <dmj`> Csaba's STG interpreter can detect space leaks
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2022-01-16 18:21:32 +0000Shiranai(~Shiranai@190.237.13.17)
2022-01-16 18:24:54 +0000tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2022-01-16 18:25:05 +0000 <Shiranai> Hello, I want to do "popping" on the natural numbers, i.e., `a  = [1..]`, `a' = pop 1 a`, `a' == [1,3,4,..]`. It doesn't have to be lists, but I want this popping functionality, how to implement this?
2022-01-16 18:25:54 +0000 <dsal> :t splitAt
2022-01-16 18:25:55 +0000 <lambdabot> Int -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
2022-01-16 18:26:03 +0000 <dsal> splitAt 1 [1..10]
2022-01-16 18:26:08 +0000 <dsal> > splitAt 1 [1..10]
2022-01-16 18:26:10 +0000 <lambdabot> ([1],[2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10])
2022-01-16 18:26:45 +0000 <EvanR> so this pop is more like a "lookup delete"
2022-01-16 18:26:56 +0000shriekingnoise(~shrieking@201.231.16.156)
2022-01-16 18:26:57 +0000 <EvanR> Data.Map and Data.IntMap have that
2022-01-16 18:27:29 +0000 <EvanR> for infinite number of natural numbers, maybe use a Data.Set to track which numbers you already deleted
2022-01-16 18:29:30 +0000 <dsal> Yeah, doing it with lists is probably not cheap.
2022-01-16 18:29:32 +0000 <EvanR> a co-finite set represented by it's finite complement
2022-01-16 18:29:36 +0000 <dsal> > second (drop 1) $ splitAt 1 [1..10]
2022-01-16 18:29:37 +0000 <lambdabot> ([1],[3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10])
2022-01-16 18:29:44 +0000 <EvanR> its*
2022-01-16 18:29:50 +0000 <sofviic[m]> the naive solution would probs be `pop n l = take n l ++ drop (n+1) l`
2022-01-16 18:29:53 +0000 <sofviic[m]> s/naive/naïve/
2022-01-16 18:30:24 +0000 <EvanR> oh, was that 1 the index of what to lookup-delete
2022-01-16 18:31:02 +0000 <EvanR> a jenga stack
2022-01-16 18:31:33 +0000 <dsal> > let pop x = uncurry (<>) . second (drop 1) . splitAt x in pop 1 [1..10]
2022-01-16 18:31:34 +0000 <lambdabot> [1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
2022-01-16 18:32:01 +0000 <EvanR> it's cheap if you stay near the top of the stack / list
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2022-01-16 18:35:37 +0000evocatus(~evocatus@62.182.77.224)
2022-01-16 18:35:39 +0000tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-01-16 18:35:43 +0000n3rdy1(~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480::41)
2022-01-16 18:36:00 +0000 <sofviic[m]> * the naïve solution would probs be `pop n l = take n l ++ drop (n+1) l`,
2022-01-16 18:36:00 +0000 <sofviic[m]> without the `l` argument: `pop n = ((<>) . take n) <*> (drop (n+1))`.
2022-01-16 18:42:17 +0000econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-01-16 18:50:17 +0000biog(~user1@static.39.160.132.142.clients.your-server.de)
2022-01-16 18:52:41 +0000tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2022-01-16 18:54:25 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
2022-01-16 18:56:58 +0000 <Shiranai> great, thanks guys
2022-01-16 18:59:54 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
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2022-01-16 19:04:21 +0000 <EvanR> if haskell pops all the boards from stack of theseus and replaces them, is it still the same stack
2022-01-16 19:04:50 +0000kjak(~kjak@pool-108-45-56-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
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2022-01-16 19:09:37 +0000 <Shiranai> no because pushing the values into the stack again probably made them get allocated in a different part in memory :^)
2022-01-16 19:10:13 +0000 <EvanR> isn't the point of a ship to move around!
2022-01-16 19:10:20 +0000 <monochrom> hahaha
2022-01-16 19:11:40 +0000kaph(~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2022-01-16 19:12:00 +0000 <monochrom> But what about the point of a stack? :)
2022-01-16 19:14:48 +0000 <EvanR> many languages feature generators that output another value on demand, it's funny haskell gets "put value back into generator" for free, something often not in the generator API
2022-01-16 19:15:35 +0000 <EvanR> also KLAX was awesome
2022-01-16 19:16:07 +0000 <EvanR> a game made for implementing as haskell list
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2022-01-16 21:25:30 +0000 <energizer> shot in the dark - is there a unicode symbol in math that represents `isInfixOf`?
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2022-01-16 21:27:22 +0000 <hpc> the closest symbols i can think of all operate on sets
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2022-01-16 21:28:58 +0000 <d34df00d> energizer: if you're asking that, then probably your readers won't know either, so I'd go with inventing your own for your domain.
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2022-01-16 22:03:26 +0000 <energizer> is there a package somewhere with safe versions of functions like `safeMaximum :: [a] -> Maybe a`
2022-01-16 22:04:36 +0000 <xsperry> safe package, perhaps
2022-01-16 22:04:36 +0000 <ephemient> (∣) = isSubsequenceOf would be *somewhat* understandable, maybe. can't think of one for isInfixOf though
2022-01-16 22:04:59 +0000 <johnw> Can I use cabal to compile .agda files in my project, in order to import compiled Agda modules into my Haskell project?
2022-01-16 22:06:26 +0000 <energizer> xsperry: that's it, thanks
2022-01-16 22:06:34 +0000 <xsperry> np
2022-01-16 22:07:01 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-01-16 22:07:37 +0000 <hololeap> energizer: I wonder if you could borrow something from relational algebra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_algebra
2022-01-16 22:08:15 +0000Sgeo_(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2022-01-16 22:08:36 +0000 <energizer> hololeap: i'm not seeing the connection
2022-01-16 22:09:12 +0000 <EvanR> I've been avoiding safeMaximum by putting an item at the head of the list to act as the default
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2022-01-16 22:09:54 +0000hololeapshrugs
2022-01-16 22:10:01 +0000 <energizer> i guess isInfixOf is really a regular expression match query
2022-01-16 22:10:10 +0000gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-01-16 22:10:12 +0000 <hololeap> isInfixOf seems like it could be related to some kind of join
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2022-01-16 22:10:38 +0000 <hololeap> I'm not familiar enough with all that to give more detail than that
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2022-01-16 22:12:09 +0000 <geekosaur> johnw, cabal doesn't currently know about Agda. there's been a proposal made for a plugin mechanism which would allow adding support for arbitrary languages (rather than, say, adding wired-in support for Agda or Rust or whatever) but it's only a proposal at present
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2022-01-16 22:16:16 +0000 <energizer> ephemient: (|) actually seems right for isInfixOf, since "abc" is a product "a" \times "b" \times "c" in the regular-language sense and "bc" 'divides' that product. or am i wrong?
2022-01-16 22:16:47 +0000benin(~benin@106.198.88.241)
2022-01-16 22:16:56 +0000 <energizer> oh yeah i'm wrong
2022-01-16 22:16:58 +0000 <energizer> duh
2022-01-16 22:17:13 +0000 <energizer> cuz "ac" also divides "abc"
2022-01-16 22:19:09 +0000 <energizer> ...or does it
2022-01-16 22:19:24 +0000 <ephemient> also U+007C is special in Haskell, so I wrote U+2223 there
2022-01-16 22:19:42 +0000 <ephemient> which makes it all the more awkward
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2022-01-16 22:22:26 +0000 <energizer> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_(mathematics)#Left_and_right_division
2022-01-16 22:22:59 +0000Ruit(~textual@c-69-248-83-247.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2022-01-16 22:23:20 +0000 <monochrom> This × is non-commutative. abc is not ac × b
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2022-01-16 22:23:58 +0000 <energizer> that applies to the matrix case too, so i dont think that hurts us
2022-01-16 22:24:57 +0000 <sclv> johnw: the above is basically correct. in the meantime, if you want, you can use a custom setup.hs that compiles agda as a preconf hook
2022-01-16 22:24:59 +0000 <energizer> `"abc" / "bc"` is `Just "a"` i think?
2022-01-16 22:25:11 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah.
2022-01-16 22:28:50 +0000random-jellyfish(~random-je@user/random-jellyfish)
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2022-01-16 22:34:50 +0000 <energizer> `"aba" / "a"` makes "ab" or "ba" ?
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2022-01-16 22:37:00 +0000 <energizer> oh here we go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotient_of_a_formal_language
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2022-01-16 22:38:40 +0000 <Hecate> §3
2022-01-16 22:38:43 +0000 <Hecate> (woops)
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2022-01-16 22:41:46 +0000 <monochrom> Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_relations#Quotients >:)
2022-01-16 22:42:36 +0000 <energizer> ephemient: actually i think (|) can be correct, if it's defined to mean "right-divides" or to mean "left-divides"
2022-01-16 22:43:16 +0000 <EvanR> the poor disrespected broken pipe symbol, such a missed opportunity to mean "divides"
2022-01-16 22:43:28 +0000 <EvanR> I mean... seriously...
2022-01-16 22:43:47 +0000 <ephemient> but neither left-divides nor right-divides is what you want, is it?
2022-01-16 22:43:51 +0000 <EvanR> ¦
2022-01-16 22:44:18 +0000 <energizer> ephemient: aren't they equivalent and both equal to isInfixOf?
2022-01-16 22:45:56 +0000 <energizer> ...or are they equivalent to isPrefixOf and isSuffixOf
2022-01-16 22:48:13 +0000 <energizer> i think it might be prefix/suffix not infix but i'm not, like, good at this
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2022-01-16 22:49:28 +0000 <ephemient> if you're thinking of (⨉) = (<>) then it's definitely prefix/suffix
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