IRCBrowse

2021/10/21

2021-10-21 00:00:25 +0000 <noidedsuper> https://gist.github.com/AnthonySuper/7c8fcab8f31ad3d2ab4911c323294fdf
2021-10-21 00:03:48 +0000 <janus> noidedsuper: what would be an example of incorrect use?
2021-10-21 00:06:18 +0000tommd(~tommd@75-164-130-101.ptld.qwest.net)
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2021-10-21 00:09:13 +0000 <janus> "the inverse of `f`". the f is the record field selector here? it's inverse would be the record field value, we already have the key name
2021-10-21 00:10:22 +0000 <janus> in my head, BothSides would contain a list of Fields. the serializer and deserializer are derivable from that list.
2021-10-21 00:11:02 +0000 <noidedsuper> https://gist.github.com/AnthonySuper/a51be1414a9f63305fdcc9ec334f6299
2021-10-21 00:11:12 +0000 <noidedsuper> problem 1 already exists if you screw up and give it the wrong object key I suppose
2021-10-21 00:11:48 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-21 00:12:11 +0000 <janus> i don't think problem 1 is solvable... if people are worried about things like that, they must use generics and have the key names autoderived, such that they will always correspond
2021-10-21 00:12:18 +0000 <noidedsuper> I dunno, I might be overthinking the scope of the issue here I suppose lol
2021-10-21 00:14:19 +0000 <janus> hmm well i don't think people should be fmapping into the fields. just like you can't fmap into a lens
2021-10-21 00:14:37 +0000 <noidedsuper> fmap is a superclass of applicative though
2021-10-21 00:14:39 +0000abrantesasf(~abrantesa@187.36.170.211)
2021-10-21 00:14:49 +0000 <noidedsuper> I guess I coudl say "don't use it pls"
2021-10-21 00:15:24 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2021-10-21 00:15:39 +0000 <janus> you could also just not use applicative, use some other thing. i dunno
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2021-10-21 00:16:07 +0000 <janus> but one more thing: each combinator could reference a child schema, and there could be schemas provided for common types like strings or datetime
2021-10-21 00:16:09 +0000mcglk_(~mcglk@131.191.49.120)
2021-10-21 00:16:55 +0000 <janus> and there could be a "schemaWithDocString :: String -> Schema -> Schema"
2021-10-21 00:17:44 +0000 <noidedsuper> Yeah the docs part is difficult
2021-10-21 00:17:46 +0000 <noidedsuper> actually
2021-10-21 00:18:03 +0000 <noidedsuper> Hmmmm. Maybe it isn't.
2021-10-21 00:18:08 +0000 <janus> such that you can do `personGivenName = schemaWithDocString "The given name of a person, not the family name. Mentioned last in china" stringSchema`
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2021-10-21 00:18:55 +0000 <janus> which would have type `Schema String` such that it fits with the "firstName :: String" in the record
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2021-10-21 00:38:56 +0000 <janus> noidedsuper: if we have a sum type `data Foo = A | B` we could have `tag2 :: Schema a -> Schema b -> Key -> String -> String` where the first string is the tag for the first case, and the second string is the tag for the second case. and the Key would be the key used to store the tag in the JSON
2021-10-21 00:39:48 +0000 <janus> ah, it would also need the constructors for the two cases and the "reverse constructor"
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2021-10-21 00:41:43 +0000 <janus> the tricky thing is the reverse constructor which must decide which serializer to use. in the case of 2, it could return an "Either a b"
2021-10-21 00:42:01 +0000[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2021-10-21 00:42:03 +0000 <noidedsuper> That's what `Selectable` gets ya
2021-10-21 00:42:05 +0000 <noidedsuper> which is nice
2021-10-21 00:42:12 +0000 <janus> ah ok
2021-10-21 00:42:21 +0000 <janus> but it would be boiler-platey right?
2021-10-21 00:43:43 +0000 <janus> oops tag2 should of course return "Schema (Either a b)", i forgot that
2021-10-21 00:44:51 +0000 <janus> but the definition of Foo is too boring, it should be "A String | B Int"
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2021-10-21 00:47:20 +0000 <janus> then the call would be `tag2 stringSchema intSchema "tag" "a" "b" (\case A str -> Left str; B int -> Right int) :: Schema Foo)`... but now i forgot that it would also need A and B passed to it such that it can also construct a Foo...
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2021-10-21 00:49:18 +0000 <janus> i wonder how it looks with selectable with more than two cases
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2021-10-21 01:01:54 +0000 <noidedsuper> It's basically just nesting I think
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2021-10-21 01:13:24 +0000 <janus> noidedsuper: to generalize this in an arity safe maner, the tag values and the constructors (A, B, ...) and their schemata can be combined using a combinator. and then all those combined cases could be combined with a function that extracts the value from each case, in this case "... -> (Foo -> String) -> (Foo -> Int) -> Schema Foo". with applicative style, correspondence between the extracting function
2021-10-21 01:13:31 +0000 <janus> and the combined tag-cases is ensured
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2021-10-21 01:31:28 +0000 <noidedsuper> I can play around with it!
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2021-10-21 01:31:53 +0000 <noidedsuper> Tomorrow, unfortunately. But thanks for the feedback, Janus! It really helped.
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2021-10-21 01:32:57 +0000 <janus> good, happy to help, i should mention that i didn't invent any of this, my ideas are taken from libraries such as Orville
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2021-10-21 03:31:22 +0000 <jackdk> I'm trying to use servant-server's UVerb machinery, and am getting a strange type error: `Expected one of: '[WithStatus 200 [StoredResourceData id]], but got: WithStatus 200 [StoredResourceData id]`. I suspect that it's a type family thing: that the open union membership test fails before the type families reduce to being equal - should I be looking for ways to delay/force type family evaluation?
2021-10-21 03:31:52 +0000 <jackdk> `StoredResourceData :: Type -> Type` is an associated type family I've written for a `class Resource id`
2021-10-21 03:37:26 +0000 <jackdk> Here is a minimal example, using servant and servant-server 0.18.3 https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Zui39kYI/servant-generic-error.hs
2021-10-21 03:38:06 +0000 <jackdk> The error appears on the call to `respond`
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2021-10-21 03:46:43 +0000 <jackdk> https://github.com/haskell-servant/servant/issues/1381 seems to be related but I don't completely follow the discussion.
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2021-10-21 04:25:05 +0000 <hololeap> extendWith :: Comonad w => (w a -> b) -> w a -> w (a,b)
2021-10-21 04:25:13 +0000 <hololeap> extendWith f w = let a = extract w in (a,) <$> extend f w
2021-10-21 04:25:18 +0000 <hololeap> does this look reasonable?
2021-10-21 04:26:02 +0000 <hololeap> I'm just trying to use extend but keep the previous value around. is there a more idiomatic way to do this?
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2021-10-21 05:54:13 +0000jlamothe(~jlamothe@198.251.61.229)
2021-10-21 06:03:28 +0000 <hololeap> @hoogle Comonad w => (w a -> b) -> w a -> w (a,b)
2021-10-21 06:03:30 +0000 <lambdabot> No results found
2021-10-21 06:04:29 +0000ubert(~Thunderbi@77.119.208.184.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
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2021-10-21 06:10:15 +0000 <InstX1> uouououo
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2021-10-21 06:15:22 +0000 <hololeap> me too!
2021-10-21 06:15:46 +0000 <ski> % :type (<<=) . (extract &&&)
2021-10-21 06:15:46 +0000 <yahb> ski: Comonad w => (w a -> c') -> w a -> w (a, c')
2021-10-21 06:17:03 +0000 <hololeap> % :type (extract &&&)
2021-10-21 06:17:03 +0000 <yahb> hololeap: Comonad w => (w c -> c') -> w c -> (c, c')
2021-10-21 06:17:14 +0000 <hololeap> % :type (e&&&)
2021-10-21 06:17:14 +0000 <yahb> hololeap: ; <interactive>:1:2: error: Variable not in scope: e :: a b c
2021-10-21 06:17:16 +0000 <hololeap> % :type (&&&)
2021-10-21 06:17:16 +0000 <yahb> hololeap: Arrow a => a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c')
2021-10-21 06:17:18 +0000 <ski> % :type \f -> (=>> \wa -> (extract wa,f wa))
2021-10-21 06:17:18 +0000 <yahb> ski: Comonad w => (w a -> b) -> w a -> w (a, b)
2021-10-21 06:18:10 +0000Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:a94b:e46c:6690:e477)
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2021-10-21 06:21:37 +0000 <hololeap> % :type \f w -> extend f (EnvT (extract w) w)
2021-10-21 06:21:37 +0000 <yahb> hololeap: ; <interactive>:1:19: error: Data constructor not in scope: EnvT :: t -> w1 t -> w a
2021-10-21 06:21:53 +0000 <hololeap> % import Control.Comonad.Env
2021-10-21 06:21:53 +0000 <yahb> hololeap:
2021-10-21 06:21:57 +0000 <hololeap> % :type \f w -> extend f (EnvT (extract w) w)
2021-10-21 06:21:57 +0000 <yahb> hololeap: Comonad w => (EnvT a w a -> b) -> w a -> EnvT a w b
2021-10-21 06:22:58 +0000 <hololeap> well my first one is probably easiest to understand :D
2021-10-21 06:23:19 +0000 <ski> what's it supposed to do ?
2021-10-21 06:23:33 +0000 <hololeap> it should be pretty clear from the type signature
2021-10-21 06:23:43 +0000 <ski> % :i EnvT
2021-10-21 06:23:43 +0000 <yahb> ski: type role EnvT representational representational nominal; type EnvT :: * -> (* -> *) -> * -> *; data EnvT e w a = EnvT e (w a); -- Defined in `Control.Comonad.Trans.Env'; instance [safe] (Monoid e, Applicative m) => Applicative (EnvT e m) -- Defined in `Control.Comonad.Trans.Env'; instance [safe] Functor w => Functor (EnvT e w) -- Defined in `Control.Comonad.Trans.Env'; instance [safe] Traversable w
2021-10-21 06:24:25 +0000 <hololeap> EnvT is irrelevant. I just want to use `extend` while keeping the original `a` around
2021-10-21 06:25:08 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2021-10-21 06:25:20 +0000 <hololeap> it doesn't even have to be it's own function, really... I could just extract `a` before running extend
2021-10-21 06:28:40 +0000mbuf(~Shakthi@171.61.241.145)
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2021-10-21 06:33:53 +0000Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:a94b:e46c:6690:e477) ()
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2021-10-21 07:04:20 +0000favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-10-21 07:05:00 +0000 <Inst> erm
2021-10-21 07:05:03 +0000 <Inst> could I have some help?
2021-10-21 07:05:43 +0000 <Inst> I already finished my textbook's intro information on typeclasses, but I'm still having difficulty concerning the notation used in :type
2021-10-21 07:05:50 +0000wonko(~wjc@62.115.229.50)
2021-10-21 07:06:02 +0000 <Inst> type a => a -> b -> a etc...
2021-10-21 07:06:09 +0000 <Inst> this is an existing mathematical notation, right?
2021-10-21 07:06:25 +0000 <Inst> what's the name of it? I'd like to be able to look up the notation individually
2021-10-21 07:07:09 +0000 <dibblego> "Haskell"
2021-10-21 07:09:13 +0000 <c_wraith> Haskell is a lot less based on math than some would have you believe.
2021-10-21 07:10:13 +0000Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-204.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2021-10-21 07:14:01 +0000 <pavonia> Inst: What part of that is confusing to you?
2021-10-21 07:14:27 +0000danso(~danso@23-233-111-52.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2021-10-21 07:15:08 +0000 <Inst> on the left side, you have inputs, on the right side, you have outputs
2021-10-21 07:15:10 +0000 <Inst> that much I understand
2021-10-21 07:15:27 +0000 <Inst> why you have a -> a or a -> b -> a, on the other hand, I don't see the pattern
2021-10-21 07:15:32 +0000mei(~mei@user/mei) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-21 07:15:38 +0000 <dibblego> -> is right-associative
2021-10-21 07:15:42 +0000 <dibblego> a -> b -> a
2021-10-21 07:15:45 +0000 <dibblego> a -> (b -> a)
2021-10-21 07:16:07 +0000mei(~mei@user/mei)
2021-10-21 07:16:16 +0000 <dibblego> function application (space) is left-associative
2021-10-21 07:16:25 +0000 <dibblego> > const 7 "abc"
2021-10-21 07:16:25 +0000 <xsperry> a and b are type variables. names can be arbitrary, but there are some common conventions
2021-10-21 07:16:26 +0000 <lambdabot> 7
2021-10-21 07:16:30 +0000 <dibblego> > (const 7) "abc"
2021-10-21 07:16:32 +0000 <lambdabot> 7
2021-10-21 07:16:35 +0000 <Inst> i'll probably be fine on my own, reading existing texts
2021-10-21 07:16:51 +0000 <xsperry> :t id
2021-10-21 07:16:52 +0000 <lambdabot> a -> a
2021-10-21 07:17:04 +0000 <pavonia> Inst: x => y is not inputs and outputs, x are type constraints, y is the actual type of the function
2021-10-21 07:17:10 +0000 <xsperry> a in id declaration stands for any type
2021-10-21 07:17:30 +0000 <Inst> for x, y, then?
2021-10-21 07:18:47 +0000 <pavonia> I don't understand the question
2021-10-21 07:19:34 +0000 <Inst> read x => y as "for x, y" then?
2021-10-21 07:20:10 +0000 <xsperry> section left of => constrains types
2021-10-21 07:20:51 +0000 <yushyin> 'type y restricted by the context x'
2021-10-21 07:21:30 +0000 <xsperry> :t (+)
2021-10-21 07:21:31 +0000 <lambdabot> Num a => a -> a -> a
2021-10-21 07:21:37 +0000 <Inst> okay, fine
2021-10-21 07:21:42 +0000 <c_wraith> Haskell types do have an implicit top-level forall on all the type variables in them.
2021-10-21 07:21:43 +0000 <xsperry> type a has to be instance of Num typeclass
2021-10-21 07:21:55 +0000 <Inst> i see, thanks, still not getting it, but i have to leave soon
2021-10-21 07:21:55 +0000 <c_wraith> If that's a thing you're wondering about
2021-10-21 07:22:49 +0000 <Inst> heh
2021-10-21 07:22:50 +0000 <Inst> https://serokell.io/files/5x/5xzv88ej.TopReasons.png
2021-10-21 07:23:20 +0000 <ski> @type sort
2021-10-21 07:23:21 +0000 <lambdabot> Ord a => [a] -> [a]
2021-10-21 07:24:35 +0000 <ski> `sort' is a function taking a list of values of type `a' as input, and produces a list of values of type `a' as output, for all types `a', provided `a' is in the type class `Ord' (`Ord a' can be read as values of type `a' supporting ordering comparision)
2021-10-21 07:25:12 +0000 <ski> @type take
2021-10-21 07:25:13 +0000 <lambdabot> Int -> [a] -> [a]
2021-10-21 07:26:02 +0000 <ski> `take' is a function taking an `Int' as input, and producing another function as output, that in turn takes a list of `a's, producing a list of `a' -- again for all types `a' (no restriction this time)
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2021-10-21 10:50:27 +0000gensyst(gensyst@user/gensyst)
2021-10-21 10:50:55 +0000 <gensyst> I have a strange/noobish question about EDSLs, compiling Haskell code, and executables.
2021-10-21 10:50:55 +0000 <gensyst> Is it considered normal to have an EDSL in Haskell that "users" (e.g. programmers in my company) use to write their domain-specific "programs" (written in the EDSL) and run these programs by running GHC and running the binary executable over and over again?
2021-10-21 10:51:16 +0000 <gensyst> I think this is strange for two reasons:
2021-10-21 10:51:28 +0000 <gensyst> 1) You're running GHC every time for every little change in the domain-specific "program" (e.g. tweaking some parameter), so you're sort of "abusing" Haskell as a scripting language.
2021-10-21 10:51:29 +0000gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2021-10-21 10:51:45 +0000 <gensyst> 2) Isn't the whole point of Haskell to execute GHC once, get one binary executable once, and then run that executable thousands of times instead of... running GHC thousands of times and each of the thousand binary executables only once?
2021-10-21 10:51:51 +0000 <gensyst> Do you see what I mean? Some thoughts on this I'd appreciate a lot!
2021-10-21 10:53:52 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-036.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-10-21 10:57:05 +0000 <lortabac> gensyst: if I understand correctly, they are using a Haskell library to make programs that they compile with GHC
2021-10-21 10:57:15 +0000 <lortabac> I don't see anything wrong with this
2021-10-21 10:57:39 +0000nsilv(~NSilv@host-87-15-180-17.retail.telecomitalia.it)
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2021-10-21 10:57:57 +0000 <gensyst> lortabac, A part of me thinks it's a bit weird to be running "cabal build; cabal exec" all the time...
2021-10-21 10:58:03 +0000 <lortabac> except the requirement to install GHC, cabal etc.
2021-10-21 10:58:17 +0000 <lortabac> if these are non-tech people that's a different story
2021-10-21 10:58:42 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-10-21 10:58:48 +0000 <lortabac> in that case maybe you want to find a solution that doesn't require knowledge of Haskell compilation
2021-10-21 10:59:53 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-21 11:00:50 +0000alx741(~alx741@186.178.109.50)
2021-10-21 11:01:16 +0000 <gensyst> well they're technical enough to plug and play things together with haskell and run cabal.
2021-10-21 11:01:25 +0000 <gensyst> my question was just why this isn't strange lol
2021-10-21 11:01:48 +0000 <lortabac> another question is, do they already have all the cabal machinery?
2021-10-21 11:01:52 +0000 <gensyst> Hmm on the other hand, I am aware of e.g. the turtle library (shell scripting in Haskell), so scripting in Haskell isn't maybe all that weird
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2021-10-21 11:04:50 +0000 <gensyst> that part's not an issue. they can set up cabal
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2021-10-21 11:16:49 +0000 <geekosaur> gensyst, it may not even require cabal. there's runghc
2021-10-21 11:17:12 +0000 <gensyst> yeah, i use runghc. makes it convenient
2021-10-21 11:17:18 +0000 <geekosaur> especially helpful if you're constantly making small changes and testing, you can skip the compile step. of coyurse it'll be slower since it's interpreted
2021-10-21 11:17:23 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-21 11:17:42 +0000 <gensyst> oh sorry. i wasn't aware of runghc actually lol. (confused it with ghcup)
2021-10-21 11:17:44 +0000 <ggVGc> wish there was a multi-module version of runghc
2021-10-21 11:17:50 +0000hiruji(~hiruji@user/hiruji)
2021-10-21 11:18:01 +0000 <ggVGc> but I guess that would become very complicated very fast
2021-10-21 11:18:17 +0000 <gensyst> geekosaur, but is this practice of EDSL & running ghc over and over again considered "natural"?
2021-10-21 11:18:35 +0000off^(~off@wsip-68-227-92-38.mc.at.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-21 11:18:38 +0000 <hughjfchen> gensyst: i think you can take a look at propellor
2021-10-21 11:19:03 +0000 <geekosaur> "natural" is in the eye of the beholder. if it works for you, that's enough
2021-10-21 11:19:07 +0000 <hughjfchen> it
2021-10-21 11:19:50 +0000 <ggVGc> is propellor like ansible?
2021-10-21 11:20:05 +0000 <hughjfchen> is a config management using haskell lang to write config property
2021-10-21 11:20:25 +0000 <ggVGc> does it serve the same use-cases one would use ansible for?\
2021-10-21 11:21:03 +0000 <ggVGc> seems like it
2021-10-21 11:21:22 +0000 <merijn> ggVGc: cabal-install supports scripting so you can use it like runghc, but with library dependencies :p
2021-10-21 11:21:47 +0000 <merijn> ggVGc: The documentation of this feature can be called...Spartan, though :p
2021-10-21 11:21:50 +0000 <ggVGc> merijn: realy? I was looking for that a while back, but couldn't find anything
2021-10-21 11:22:12 +0000 <merijn> Has existed for, at least, 2 years
2021-10-21 11:22:23 +0000 <merijn> ggVGc: But I don't think hvr ever got around to writing docs
2021-10-21 11:23:13 +0000 <merijn> ggVGc: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/3843
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2021-10-21 11:26:06 +0000 <ggVGc> nice, thanks! Will have to give it a go when I get back to my haskell project, after these two physics exams which I am sure to fail
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2021-10-21 11:28:54 +0000 <gensyst> geekosaur, hmmmmm ok.
2021-10-21 11:30:04 +0000 <merijn> I mean, basically this question boils down to "what do you think of staged compilation?"
2021-10-21 11:30:27 +0000 <merijn> And my opinion would generally be "staged compilation is great, I wish GHC had better support!"
2021-10-21 11:31:04 +0000 <merijn> TH is kinda staged compilation, but with fucky interactions and lack of clear boundaries/separation
2021-10-21 11:31:10 +0000 <gensyst> well, doesn't EDSL sort of *imply* that's the way you're going to do things?
2021-10-21 11:31:19 +0000MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-10-21 11:31:47 +0000 <gensyst> it implies you're going to be doing stuff at Haskell level (to benefit from type system) instead of reusing final binary executables (or composing such binary executables)
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2021-10-21 11:32:54 +0000 <gensyst> the question was basically, is it "ok" to compile all the time. i think you guys are saying there's nothing wrong with it, so i'll just do it i guess :D
2021-10-21 11:33:27 +0000Rembane_shakes fist at TH
2021-10-21 11:34:01 +0000 <geekosaur> gensyst, take a look at xmonad. you may be mod-q recompiling quite a bit at first until you decide you're satisfied with the result. (of course you may then not touch it for years…)
2021-10-21 11:35:58 +0000 <geekosaur> (xmonad = window manager EDSL)
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2021-10-21 11:36:09 +0000 <gensyst> ok that's cool
2021-10-21 11:36:17 +0000 <gensyst> gives me more confidence
2021-10-21 11:36:24 +0000 <gensyst> this is the way :D
2021-10-21 11:39:20 +0000osa1(~osa1@178.233.26.94)
2021-10-21 11:40:26 +0000 <gensyst> geekosaur, hmm wow. somehow xmonad will use this new .o file? allowing you to plug and play
2021-10-21 11:40:42 +0000 <gensyst> at run time
2021-10-21 11:40:48 +0000 <gensyst> how...
2021-10-21 11:41:03 +0000 <osa1> Does QuickCheck's shrink (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck-2.10/docs/Test-QuickCheck-Arbitrary.html#v:shrink) do depth-first or breadth-first search? When it finds a shrunk example that fails, does it search further (if so, for how long?), or stop and return the first one it finds?
2021-10-21 11:42:36 +0000 <ggVGc> merijn: maybe I misunderstood. Should this allow me to make import another file in the same directory in a Main.hs file?
2021-10-21 11:42:43 +0000 <ggVGc> -make
2021-10-21 11:43:10 +0000 <ggVGc> merijn: e.g https://gist.github.com/0792e113c9b894f854e4675b221aefc6 and then have a Test/Foo.hs file in the same directory
2021-10-21 11:43:49 +0000 <ggVGc> This is what I get, https://gist.github.com/c595db27571a9ac7da18d92e417b85bd
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2021-10-21 11:49:17 +0000 <geekosaur> xmonad compiles the new config and then does a Unix exec()on it, replacing itself with the new config
2021-10-21 11:49:34 +0000 <geekosaur> there is a way tio do binary plugins in Haskell but it's kinda painful
2021-10-21 11:49:50 +0000 <geekosaur> @hackage plugins
2021-10-21 11:49:50 +0000 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/plugins
2021-10-21 11:49:56 +0000 <gensyst> ok great!
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2021-10-21 11:50:10 +0000 <gensyst> thank you all for these tips and tricks!
2021-10-21 11:50:17 +0000 <gensyst> i can carry on now with confidence
2021-10-21 11:51:00 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-036.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-10-21 11:52:17 +0000 <merijn> ggVGc: Not sure about that. I meant more that you can depend on packages beyond just what's normally pre-installed
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2021-10-21 12:54:58 +0000 <ggVGc> merijn: might still start using this for my lab reports...
2021-10-21 12:55:37 +0000ixosa(~xaaxor@251.222.198.146.dyn.plus.net)
2021-10-21 12:55:48 +0000 <ggVGc> was contemplating taking my lab notes in haskell to easily have the calculated results from the same source when I write the report, but hesitated because of execution complications. So currently unhappily using python
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2021-10-21 13:48:05 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2021-10-21 13:48:34 +0000 <hippoid> :t \f g x y -> f (g x y)
2021-10-21 13:48:35 +0000 <lambdabot> (t1 -> t2) -> (t3 -> t4 -> t1) -> t3 -> t4 -> t2
2021-10-21 13:49:13 +0000 <hippoid> I want to create a type alias for that function type
2021-10-21 13:49:33 +0000 <hippoid> (t1 -> t2) -> (t3 -> t4 -> t1) -> t3 -> t4 -> t2
2021-10-21 13:50:03 +0000 <hippoid> type F = (t1 -> t2) -> (t3 -> t4 -> t1) -> t3 -> t4 -> t2
2021-10-21 13:50:13 +0000 <hippoid> does not work
2021-10-21 13:50:26 +0000jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d4da80.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-10-21 13:51:24 +0000 <geekosaur> no, you really need to pass the types as parameters
2021-10-21 13:51:57 +0000 <geekosaur> since otherwise they can't unify with any other type (and how would you specify which type is which?)
2021-10-21 13:52:24 +0000 <geekosaur> type F t1 t2 t3 t4 = ...
2021-10-21 13:54:23 +0000MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.21.10.17) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-10-21 13:55:21 +0000 <hippoid> geekosaur: I don't know where to start to answer your question "how would you specify which type is which"
2021-10-21 13:55:53 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-036.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-10-21 13:56:01 +0000 <merijn> hippoid: Let's rewind, what do you think the behaviour of that alias would be?
2021-10-21 13:56:27 +0000 <pavonia> Perhaps they actually want type F = forall t1 t2 t3 t4. ...
2021-10-21 13:56:29 +0000 <merijn> geekosaur: I mean, it could be a Rank2 alias, but I find that questionable as well
2021-10-21 13:56:36 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b5c0:69fb:2ebc:745e)
2021-10-21 13:56:57 +0000 <merijn> pavonia: Yes, I realise that that *might* be the solution. That's why I asked why/what they want it to do
2021-10-21 13:57:16 +0000 <merijn> pavonia: Preemptively handing out rope like Rank2 types is generally...not helpful to beginners :p
2021-10-21 13:58:01 +0000 <hippoid> merijn: to rewind further, I'm trying to do Eta reduction on the function \f g x y -> f (g x y) to get it into point-free style, and I'm using QuickCheck to test my equivalances. I want to pass the function into my property test, and that's why I want an alias for that long function type
2021-10-21 13:58:15 +0000 <pavonia> Fair enough
2021-10-21 14:00:18 +0000dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2021-10-21 14:00:21 +0000 <hippoid> like this https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jFMbE1G6
2021-10-21 14:00:42 +0000Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@156.34.44.192) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 14:00:44 +0000 <lyxia> For QuickCheck you will have to choose some concrete types for t1 ... t4 anyway
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2021-10-21 14:06:11 +0000 <hippoid> ok, i got it working well enough. thanks!
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2021-10-21 14:20:41 +0000 <AWizzArd> There are plenty streaming libs for GHC. Pipes. Conduit. Streams. Streamly. To name a few.
2021-10-21 14:21:59 +0000 <AWizzArd> Do they all offer a way to take a set of items out of the stream (i.e. a certain number of bytes, a number of lines, like `take n`) and get ([a], RestOfStream)?
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2021-10-21 14:29:19 +0000 <adamCS> There's no way I can reorder type parameters via a type synonym or type family such that I can partially apply against the result, right? I want "PipeStream m a = Pipes.Producer a m ()" where I can then use "PipeStream m" or even "PipeStream". But there's no way, right? I have to newtype it?
2021-10-21 14:29:38 +0000 <merijn> adamCS: No, because that is equivalent in power to type level lambda's
2021-10-21 14:30:07 +0000gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2021-10-21 14:30:09 +0000 <merijn> (no, as in, no that isn't possible)
2021-10-21 14:30:21 +0000 <adamCS> merijn: yeah. That's what I thought...without the theoretical bit. Thanks!
2021-10-21 14:32:30 +0000 <AWizzArd> adamCS: Are you currently working with the Pipes streaming library?
2021-10-21 14:34:28 +0000cross_cross
2021-10-21 14:34:34 +0000 <adamCS> AWizzArd: Yes, sort of. I'm working on some enhancements to the "Frames" library, which uses Pipes. Part of the work I did is to switch to using streamly where Frames used Pipes. But now I'm trying to merge it all and thus trying to unify (a subset of) the interfaces via a record-of-functions.
2021-10-21 14:35:32 +0000rond_(~rond_@2a01:115f:943:5e00:7fe4:4b4a:851b:ca4d)
2021-10-21 14:35:44 +0000 <adamCS> But the different kind signatures of a streamly stream (t :: (Type -> Type) -> Type -> Type) and a Pipes producer (p :: Type -> (Type -> Type) -> Type -> Type)) are proving...annoying.
2021-10-21 14:36:24 +0000 <AWizzArd> adamCS: Interesting. You might be able to help with some insight. If I have a source of lines (i.e. lists) of Text, something such as `Stream [Text]`. Can I then use Pipes to give me 1-n of those [Text], and a stream that contains the rest (if any)?
2021-10-21 14:36:39 +0000 <merijn> AWizzArd: You want pipes-parse
2021-10-21 14:36:43 +0000 <merijn> @hackage pipes-parse
2021-10-21 14:36:44 +0000 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes-parse
2021-10-21 14:37:54 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: I want to implement functionality for reusing parsing streams of lines of Texts. It will eventually be used to validate/parse CSV files, but it could work on any source for lines of columns.
2021-10-21 14:38:30 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: but I want to decouple it from a concrete CSV lib and a concrete streaming lib. Instead my type class will offer the functionality against which a user can write an implementation.
2021-10-21 14:39:07 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: the purpose is to factor out the part where the lines are counted and good error reporting and parsing takes place, which is repetitive.
2021-10-21 14:39:34 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: on top of it I want something comparable to Json-Schema.
2021-10-21 14:39:46 +0000TMA(tma@twin.jikos.cz)
2021-10-21 14:41:16 +0000 <merijn> AWizzArd: pipes-parse isn't really parsing in the sense you're thinking off
2021-10-21 14:41:24 +0000 <AWizzArd> Doing Abelson&Sussman’s ”Programming by wishful thinking” I would like to get a couple of rows and interate over them. `let ([row], rest) = readFromStream 1 stream`
2021-10-21 14:41:38 +0000 <merijn> pipes itself simply does *not* allow "take N lines and return the remainder"
2021-10-21 14:41:49 +0000 <merijn> You are not allowed to have a remainder with pipes
2021-10-21 14:41:58 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: okay, that info already helps
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2021-10-21 14:42:34 +0000 <merijn> pipes-parse is basically a StateT with the State being a producer, allowing you to pass a producer (i.e. remaining input) to a future stage when you're done consuming
2021-10-21 14:43:18 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: essentially I just would like to work with the type [[Text]], which just may blow up memory if an input csv file is 300 GB in size. So I couldn’t use a csv lib directly but instead plug in any of the streaming libs.
2021-10-21 14:43:27 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@p5dcc1a24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-10-21 14:43:52 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-21 14:44:08 +0000 <merijn> As someone who has tried wrapping several streaming libs using a single API: Just don't
2021-10-21 14:44:19 +0000dsrt^(~dsrt@wsip-68-227-92-38.mc.at.cox.net)
2021-10-21 14:44:26 +0000 <merijn> It sucks in all sorts of annoying ways
2021-10-21 14:45:35 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: I don't want to complect in a concrete implementation. To my users I want to offer something like `getNextLines` (i.e. take on any streaming lib). The user will find an already parsed row or a detailed error report and can decide what to do.
2021-10-21 14:46:15 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: when this is done I want to write an implementation for those different streaming libs, so the user will be free to choose any, and the `getNextLines` magic will just do its work.
2021-10-21 14:47:36 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-036.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
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2021-10-21 14:50:28 +0000mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2021-10-21 14:50:30 +0000 <lyxia> Is there a proof that ZipList can't be a monad?
2021-10-21 14:50:35 +0000 <merijn> AWizzArd: Probably wanna study how things like the attoparsec wrappers for pipes/conduit are done and adjust your API to play nicely with that
2021-10-21 14:50:41 +0000 <merijn> lyxia: Easy: What's return do?
2021-10-21 14:51:07 +0000 <AWizzArd> merijn: sounds like a starting point.
2021-10-21 14:52:05 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-036.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-21 14:52:16 +0000 <lyxia> merijn: return = ZipList . repeat
2021-10-21 14:52:35 +0000unit73e(~emanuel@2001:818:e8dd:7c00:32b5:c2ff:fe6b:5291)
2021-10-21 14:53:32 +0000 <merijn> lyxia: Ok, so now how's >>= gonna work if I do "return x >>= f"
2021-10-21 14:53:44 +0000 <merijn> Supposedly "return x >>= f" = "f x"
2021-10-21 14:53:52 +0000 <merijn> But now I suddenly have infinite 'x's
2021-10-21 14:54:23 +0000Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@156.34.44.192)
2021-10-21 14:54:28 +0000 <merijn> lyxia: Applicative works because <*> sees two ZipLists and ends up truncating to the shorter one
2021-10-21 14:55:57 +0000 <lyxia> Well I can try to take the diagonal of repeat (f x)
2021-10-21 14:56:08 +0000 <lyxia> I know my attempt is gonna fail, but that's no proof that all attempts are going to fail.
2021-10-21 14:57:25 +0000lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:de8d:bf1f:3d7:7a94)
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2021-10-21 15:01:56 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
2021-10-21 15:05:54 +0000 <lyxia> In fact it will satisfy the identity laws, so if there is an argument to be made it must involve the associativity law.
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2021-10-21 15:27:38 +0000 <codolio> lyxia: It takes some work, but the idea is that to be associative, you'd need to figure out the diagonal of a 3-dimensional cube, but the operations can only act on squares. Collapsing squares can eliminate things that would be holes in the diagonal in 3 dimensions.
2021-10-21 15:30:11 +0000rdz1789(~rdz1789@139.47.40.241)
2021-10-21 15:31:47 +0000 <codolio> Or maybe it's the opposite in some cases, now that I think of it.
2021-10-21 15:32:34 +0000 <lyxia> the opposite of what?
2021-10-21 15:32:47 +0000 <codolio> There are squares with holes in the diagonal but those holes don't form part of the 3-dimensional diagonal, so you shouldn't artificially truncate.
2021-10-21 15:34:52 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-10-21 15:35:32 +0000 <codolio> Maybe it's just a matter of perspective on how you think the monad might actually work out.
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2021-10-21 15:50:20 +0000 <LimeGolem> I have a data type with multiple constructors, some of them recursive (e.g. `data Expr = Lit Int | Add Expr Expr | Mul Expr Expr`). I want to forbid certain patterns (e.g. in `Add a b` I want to forbid `a` from being of the form `Add _ _`, which is always possible if `Add` is modelling something associative). Is there any way to do this which
2021-10-21 15:50:21 +0000 <LimeGolem> doesn't involve boilerplate which is quadratic in the number of constructors?
2021-10-21 15:52:56 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b5c0:69fb:2ebc:745e)
2021-10-21 15:52:58 +0000 <c_wraith> depending on the use case, you might be able to do that by making it a GADT. (Or maybe not - it depends entirely on what you're doing with them.
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2021-10-21 15:54:51 +0000 <LimeGolem> The use case is that I'm building an AST, but I have various equivalences and I want to enforce some kind of normal form at the type level.
2021-10-21 15:54:53 +0000 <c_wraith> Hmm, actually that'd need more than just a GADT. That would need to be mixed with rank-n types
2021-10-21 15:55:39 +0000 <LimeGolem> The best solution I have at the moment uses GADTs and RankNTypes, but also involves a lot of boilerplate. I'm hoping there's a simpler solution which I've missed.
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2021-10-21 15:57:01 +0000 <c_wraith> I could construct something, but I would probably put it at the edge of being unusable in real code.
2021-10-21 15:57:49 +0000 <LimeGolem> If it doesn't involve an unwieldy amount of boilerplate, I'd definitely be interested in seeing it.
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2021-10-21 15:58:54 +0000 <monochrom> I think s/depends on use case/depends on actual restrictions/
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2021-10-21 15:59:04 +0000 <c_wraith> if I wanted to go with an actually-usable approach, I'd probably go with enforcing an interface consisting only of normalizing combinators
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2021-10-21 16:00:05 +0000 <LimeGolem> That is an option. But I'm trying to find a way to enforce the normalisation directly at the type level.
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2021-10-21 16:07:39 +0000 <Guest78> Hi! I'm on p. 29 of Learn You a Haskell for Great Good, and there is this pattern of pattern matching that I can't get to work. It says that to capture the first three variables of a list and then the rest in another variable, you can use the pattern q:p:r:xs. But, ...
2021-10-21 16:07:59 +0000justHaunt(~justache@user/justache)
2021-10-21 16:08:16 +0000 <geekosaur> you need to parenthesize it (and most patterns)
2021-10-21 16:08:25 +0000 <Guest78> ... when I try I get an infinite type error when trying this line: mytails (q:p:r:x) = [r,p,q,x]
2021-10-21 16:08:38 +0000 <Guest78> If someone has the time to explain, I would be very grateful!
2021-10-21 16:08:56 +0000 <geekosaur> because x has the type [a] whereas q, p, r have type a
2021-10-21 16:09:19 +0000 <geekosaur> you have to recombine them using (:) syntax, not standard list syntax
2021-10-21 16:09:40 +0000 <geekosaur> mytails (q:p:r:x) = (r:p:q:x)
2021-10-21 16:09:59 +0000 <Guest78> So how do I declare that in the declaration line? Here is what I had : mytails :: [a] -> [a]
2021-10-21 16:10:14 +0000 <geekosaur> you don't need to do anything in the declaration line
2021-10-21 16:10:21 +0000 <c_wraith> LimeGolem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NGZmMb1Q I would rate the usability of this around 1/10. But technically it does what you asked for.
2021-10-21 16:10:43 +0000 <geekosaur> [a,b,c] is the same as a:b:c:[]
2021-10-21 16:11:15 +0000 <Guest78> I think I get it now -- it is like consing in Lisp, right? Thanks a lot for your help!
2021-10-21 16:11:20 +0000 <geekosaur> yes
2021-10-21 16:11:34 +0000 <geekosaur> the [x,y,z] syntax is augar for the cons-style syntax
2021-10-21 16:11:39 +0000 <geekosaur> *sugar for
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2021-10-21 16:15:26 +0000 <Guest78> I think I'm still a bit confused about the parentheses -- the ( is for tuples and [ for lists, but here, I use ( to match and return a list?
2021-10-21 16:15:44 +0000 <LimeGolem> c_wraith: Thanks! I would give that at least a 3/10 :). Is there any way to extend that to include patterns involving multiple terms in a single constructor, e.g. `Add (Add a b) (Add c d)`?
2021-10-21 16:16:15 +0000 <geekosaur> Guest78, inb this case the () is just because of precedence
2021-10-21 16:16:41 +0000 <geekosaur> foo x:y:z is parsed (((foo x):y):z) which is not what you want
2021-10-21 16:16:58 +0000 <geekosaur> (even in patterns, for consistency with expressions)
2021-10-21 16:17:09 +0000 <geekosaur> so you have to say foo (x:y:z)
2021-10-21 16:17:47 +0000 <geekosaur> so the parentheses aren't really part of the syntax, they just make things associate correctly
2021-10-21 16:18:04 +0000 <c_wraith> LimeGolem: probably, but I can't see it right now. and it would probably get far worse to work with
2021-10-21 16:19:11 +0000 <Guest78> Thanks again! I get it now! I should have re-read a few pages before jumping right back into where I was yesterday :).
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2021-10-21 16:28:47 +0000 <LimeGolem> c_wraith: That's what I was afraid of. Is there a name for this sort of technique? Something that I can look up?
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2021-10-21 16:30:48 +0000 <c_wraith> You know, I can't recall ever seeing a name for it.
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2021-10-21 16:31:43 +0000 <dolio> lyxia: The closest natural thing I can come up with is this: imagine lists as `Σ n. Fin n -> A`. (<*>) takes the minimum of two ns. Make join use the minimum over all ns. So, if one row is empty, your whole join is empty, even if there's a non-trivial diagonal. Then maybe that operation is associative.
2021-10-21 16:32:25 +0000 <dolio> However, that doesn't actually work for infinite lists. You can't know how big the output should be without seeing the entire input.
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2021-10-21 16:33:45 +0000 <LimeGolem> c_wraith: Oh well, thanks for the help!
2021-10-21 16:34:38 +0000 <dolio> And without infinite lists there is no unit. You could formally adjoin one, but it is not the same type.
2021-10-21 16:37:28 +0000 <dolio> I.E. Maybe ℕ is not the same as the possibly infinite, 'natural numbers,' they have distinct computational topologies.
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2021-10-21 16:48:51 +0000 <dolio> geekosaur: I think you got that slightly wrong.
2021-10-21 16:49:11 +0000 <dolio> (foo x):(y:z)
2021-10-21 16:49:19 +0000 <geekosaur> probably
2021-10-21 16:49:27 +0000 <geekosaur> right, (:) right-associates, sorry
2021-10-21 16:49:34 +0000 <dolio> I had to think about it a while with that many parens. :þ
2021-10-21 16:49:42 +0000 <geekosaur> but the important part was x misassociating
2021-10-21 16:50:17 +0000 <lyxia> dolio: you can't prove that there is no good join by showing that just one join is bad. And that one is not associative either.
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2021-10-21 17:02:05 +0000 <dolio> What is a 'good' join? Is it any arbitrary function that is associative and happens to take the diagonal on squares, regardless of how unpredictable it is on non-square cases? Then I haven't seen a universal disproof of those.
2021-10-21 17:06:27 +0000 <dolio> If the goodness criterion includes corresponding to some simply describable operation on diagonals of ragged squares/cubes, then there are counter example cubes for the obvious ones.
2021-10-21 17:09:57 +0000 <awpr> FWIW infinite streams and fixed-size Vecs do have this diagonalization instance
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2021-10-21 17:18:59 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-21 17:20:56 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i am now interested in what abstract "characteristics" code can have. i am not quite sure what i mean by code here, but i probably mean a function as haskellers describe it, or possibly a function or data type. for example: pure, functional, linear, total, synchronous/asynchronous, ...
2021-10-21 17:20:57 +0000 <lyxia> Yes to "What is a 'good' join? Is it ..."
2021-10-21 17:21:35 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> is there a list of these abstract characteristics somewhere?
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2021-10-21 17:30:22 +0000 <Guest78> I have another question, if someone has the time. I'm now on p. 36 of Learn You a Haskell... and am practicing with case. I can do fibonacci numbers with pattern match, if-then-else and guards, but with case I get a parse error. Here is my attempt:
2021-10-21 17:30:42 +0000 <Guest78> myfib4 :: (Integral a) => a -> a
2021-10-21 17:30:42 +0000 <Guest78> myfib4 n = case n of < 2 -> n
2021-10-21 17:30:43 +0000 <Guest78> case n of _ -> myfib3 (n - 1) + myfib3 (n - 2)
2021-10-21 17:31:08 +0000 <Guest78> The parse error is on the first case. Emacs marks it at the arrow.
2021-10-21 17:31:10 +0000 <geekosaur> case does pattern matches on structure; you need guards to do numeric comparisons
2021-10-21 17:31:45 +0000 <Guest78> Ok, so I can't use case for this at all?
2021-10-21 17:31:49 +0000 <geekosaur> so you can't do that check directly using case, only with a guard
2021-10-21 17:32:21 +0000 <Guest78> Thanks a lot :). I'll just move on then!
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2021-10-21 17:48:32 +0000 <Inst> also, this is interesting
2021-10-21 17:49:43 +0000 <Inst> it turns out HPF1P does the Main / Do in Chapter 3
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2021-10-21 18:02:38 +0000 <k> Where is the source for the `Ord` class? I can't find it in GHC.Base.
2021-10-21 18:03:21 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:03:51 +0000 <davean> GHC.Classes perhaps
2021-10-21 18:03:57 +0000 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/ghc-prim-0.7.0/src/GHC-Classes.html#Ord
2021-10-21 18:04:02 +0000 <davean> The thing you get when you click on "Source" next to Ord in Data.Ord?
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2021-10-21 18:04:25 +0000 <geekosaur> or in Prelude for that matter
2021-10-21 18:04:37 +0000 <Hecate> found it
2021-10-21 18:04:44 +0000 <Hecate> ah yes, thanks geekosaur
2021-10-21 18:04:52 +0000 <k> geekosaur: thanks!
2021-10-21 18:05:03 +0000 <Hecate> davean: I had to click on the source for the Ord Bool implementation in the "Instances" dropdown
2021-10-21 18:05:05 +0000 <k> davean: Couldn't get to the source that way.
2021-10-21 18:05:06 +0000 <Hecate> to get to GHC.Classes
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2021-10-21 18:14:29 +0000 <geekosaur> come to think of it I did the same thing, but I intended it as a shortcut. if it's not directly documented in either Data.Ord or Prelude, that's a bug imo
2021-10-21 18:14:49 +0000 <geekosaur> shouldn't force preople to go digging for GHC.Classes for basic stuff like Ord and Eq
2021-10-21 18:15:22 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:16:02 +0000 <k> Does `compare` imply that `Ord` defines a total order? If not, why not?
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2021-10-21 18:16:16 +0000 <geekosaur> Ord is supposed to define a total order
2021-10-21 18:16:37 +0000 <geekosaur> Sadly this gets abused a bit, including by Double
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2021-10-21 18:17:07 +0000 <Hecate> I'm waiting for the CLC to be operational to push for a PartialEq / PartialOrd
2021-10-21 18:17:20 +0000 <Hecate> that Eq/Ord would inherit, and as such become Laws-only typeclasses
2021-10-21 18:17:22 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:17:34 +0000 <k> Per the docs: 'The Haskell Report defines not laws for 'Ord'. However, '<=' is customarily expected to implement a non-strict partial order ...'
2021-10-21 18:18:07 +0000 <k> *no laws
2021-10-21 18:18:13 +0000 <Hecate> yep
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2021-10-21 18:18:23 +0000 <davean> Thats not what the documentation says: ""
2021-10-21 18:18:26 +0000 <davean> Thats not what the documentation says: "<= is customarily expected to implement a non-strict partial order"
2021-10-21 18:19:08 +0000 <davean> The only total order class I know of in Haskell is in a library
2021-10-21 18:19:16 +0000 <davean> Ironicly, a partial order library
2021-10-21 18:19:23 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:20:02 +0000 <k> I guess `EQ` is not supposed to mean `equal` or `equivalent`?
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2021-10-21 18:20:24 +0000 <k> But maybe `not comparably greater or less than`?
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2021-10-21 18:25:29 +0000 <k> Ah, never mind. I don't really know what I'm talking about.
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2021-10-21 18:26:59 +0000 <k> I still don't understand why all of `>`, `>=`, and `<` are defined in terms of `compare`. Or, honestly, why they're methods. Seems like a waste of code.
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2021-10-21 18:27:38 +0000 <monochrom> Standard libraries such as Data.Map and Data.Set already treats Ord as a total order. I think it is too late to defend "but it has no laws".
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2021-10-21 18:28:25 +0000 <janus> k: how would they be if they were not methods and not defined in terms of `compare`?
2021-10-21 18:29:04 +0000albet70(~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8)
2021-10-21 18:29:15 +0000 <k> janus: You could define them in terms of `<=` as constrained functions rather than methods.
2021-10-21 18:29:24 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:29:37 +0000 <monochrom> "MINIMAL compare | (<=)" allows starting with <=
2021-10-21 18:30:05 +0000 <k> Oh, I'm aware of that, but you still end up defining everything in terms of `compare` when you start with only `<=`.
2021-10-21 18:30:09 +0000 <monochrom> Though, I am surprised that you don't also raise "but (>) is better"
2021-10-21 18:30:12 +0000 <janus> k: but then NaN <= NaN would be unequal NaN > NaN, right?
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2021-10-21 18:31:10 +0000 <monochrom> If you are referring to default implementations...
2021-10-21 18:31:20 +0000 <monochrom> You can always override them for your type.
2021-10-21 18:31:24 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:31:34 +0000 <davean> k: Making them members allows optimizations for their specific cases
2021-10-21 18:32:16 +0000 <monochrom> Default implementations are meant to "work under maximum mathematical generality" not "efficient".
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2021-10-21 18:32:29 +0000 <k> > (0/0 :: Double) > (0/0 :: Double)
2021-10-21 18:32:30 +0000 <monochrom> Just look at Foldable.
2021-10-21 18:32:31 +0000 <lambdabot> False
2021-10-21 18:32:59 +0000 <k> > (0/0 :: Double) <= (0/0 :: Double)
2021-10-21 18:33:01 +0000 <lambdabot> False
2021-10-21 18:33:04 +0000 <monochrom> Who would code up foldl' in terms of foldr, really. And foldr' in terms of foldl, for the LOL.
2021-10-21 18:33:24 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:33:46 +0000 <k> And foldr in terms of foldMap, for that matter...
2021-10-21 18:33:57 +0000 <k> Fair enough.
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2021-10-21 18:35:07 +0000 <k> I was just thinking that if there's a default implementation that is basically always as efficient as any hand-crafted implementation, there's no need to make it a method. There was a similar discussion about `Eq` on haskell-cafe.
2021-10-21 18:35:24 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:35:36 +0000 <k> Although that had the added issue of newtype dictionaries.
2021-10-21 18:35:40 +0000 <monochrom> That's a big "IF".
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2021-10-21 18:36:23 +0000 <monochrom> In practice, that statement is vacuously satisfied by all classes we hav.
2021-10-21 18:37:25 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:37:27 +0000 <davean> Thats basicly non-sensicil
2021-10-21 18:37:39 +0000 <davean> You've derived why they are in the class - because thats false
2021-10-21 18:37:44 +0000 <davean> and almost has to be
2021-10-21 18:38:09 +0000 <davean> I say almost because in SOME specific cases a sufficiently smart SMT solver style compiler COULD optimize
2021-10-21 18:38:17 +0000 <davean> But lets be real - thats horribly unrealistic
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2021-10-21 18:39:00 +0000 <Inst> nice, just got GHCI running in visual studio code
2021-10-21 18:39:10 +0000 <Inst> honestly they should advertise visual studio code for haskell in windows
2021-10-21 18:39:24 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 18:40:14 +0000 <k> I'd say there's a big difference between `notElem x` = `not . elem x` and `foldl f z xs = appEndo (getDual (foldMap (Dual . Endo . flip f) xs)) z`.
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2021-10-21 18:41:48 +0000 <davean> k: Thats trivially false.
2021-10-21 18:42:15 +0000 <k> davean: OK, please explain.
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2021-10-21 18:42:29 +0000 <k> Sometimes 'trivial' things are hard for me to figure out.
2021-10-21 18:42:53 +0000 <davean> k: consider the infinite cases
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2021-10-21 18:43:55 +0000 <k> OK. So elem of an infinite structure can terminate; `notElem` cannot be defined to terminate.
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2021-10-21 18:45:06 +0000 <k> foldl of an infinite right-to-left structure can terminate; foldl of an infinite left-to-right structure cannot terminate.
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2021-10-21 18:46:05 +0000 <k> `elem` and `notElem` have the same termination characteristics regardless of the bias of the infinite structure. What is your point?
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2021-10-21 19:07:34 +0000 <k> I wonder what trivial thing I was missing. Happy Friday everyone.
2021-10-21 19:07:43 +0000k(~user@152.1.137.158) (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
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2021-10-21 19:08:28 +0000 <koala_man> is there a class or something I can use to automatically enumerate each value in a data type, e.g. data Foo = Bar | Baz; (something :: [Foo]) == [ Bar, Baz ]?
2021-10-21 19:08:49 +0000 <geekosaur> something in Data.Generic
2021-10-21 19:09:00 +0000 <geekosaur> requires deriving Generic
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2021-10-21 19:09:22 +0000 <awpr> > `enumFrom minBound :: [Word8]`
2021-10-21 19:09:23 +0000 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘`’
2021-10-21 19:09:29 +0000 <awpr> > enumFrom minBound :: [Word8]
2021-10-21 19:09:29 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 19:09:31 +0000 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,2...
2021-10-21 19:09:50 +0000 <awpr> for simple enums with Enum and Bounded, that should do it
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2021-10-21 19:10:52 +0000 <monochrom> data Foo = Bar | Baz deriving (Bounded, Enum)
2021-10-21 19:11:04 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95730dd002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-10-21 19:11:13 +0000 <monochrom> then you can [minBound .. maxBound]
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2021-10-21 19:11:38 +0000 <monochrom> This doesn't work for "larger" examples.
2021-10-21 19:11:40 +0000myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-85-195.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-21 19:11:48 +0000aegon(~mike@174.127.249.180)
2021-10-21 19:11:54 +0000 <koala_man> nice, thanks!
2021-10-21 19:12:20 +0000 <awpr> for more complicated types like tuples of enums, sum types with fields, etc. there's https://hackage.haskell.org/package/finite-table-0.1.0.1/docs/Data-Finite.html#v:enumerate
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2021-10-21 19:15:33 +0000 <awpr> (note `[minBound..maxBound]` is exactly `enumFromTo minBound maxBound`, and for derived instances for finite enums, those are the same as `[minBound..]` and `enumFrom minBound`)
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2021-10-21 19:17:31 +0000gomma(~gomma@c-73-132-243-63.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
2021-10-21 19:18:14 +0000 <gomma> Is conan in here?
2021-10-21 19:18:23 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 19:18:32 +0000 <Franciman> not now, apparently
2021-10-21 19:18:57 +0000 <gomma> but he is sometimes here?
2021-10-21 19:19:16 +0000 <Franciman> conal^
2021-10-21 19:19:18 +0000 <Franciman> ?
2021-10-21 19:19:22 +0000 <Franciman> yes usually I see him online
2021-10-21 19:19:25 +0000 <gomma> yes that's probably it!
2021-10-21 19:19:29 +0000 <gomma> thank u
2021-10-21 19:19:30 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 19:19:44 +0000 <gomma> ok thanks
2021-10-21 19:20:22 +0000 <gomma> he helped me years ago and i wanted to discuss stuff with him since i've grown a lot since then
2021-10-21 19:20:24 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 19:20:30 +0000 <gomma> but since i have the right name now, i found his publications
2021-10-21 19:20:34 +0000jaitoon(~Jaitoon@2a02:c7f:a5f:1d00:3901:d03b:2d77:c4b6)
2021-10-21 19:20:41 +0000slowButPresent(~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent)
2021-10-21 19:21:22 +0000 <gomma> I think I want to read through those before engaging again
2021-10-21 19:21:29 +0000 <gomma> Thanks so much! Goodbye y'all
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2021-10-21 19:21:43 +0000 <janus> goodbye gomma
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2021-10-21 19:27:36 +0000 <aegon> is there an applicative version of ^. for lens?
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2021-10-21 19:45:39 +0000 <kronicmage> wdym by applicative?
2021-10-21 19:45:42 +0000 <kronicmage> aegon
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2021-10-21 20:02:58 +0000 <aegon> kronicmage: i want to apply a lens to a value within a monadic context or functor context
2021-10-21 20:03:25 +0000 <aegon> so instead of doing somethign like val >>= \x -> x ^. lens i'm wondering if anyones made a applicative for m so i can do val ^. lens
2021-10-21 20:03:34 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-50.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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2021-10-21 20:04:06 +0000 <aegon> well, binds used wrong there :\ but thats the jist
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2021-10-21 20:04:44 +0000 <awpr> I'm not aware of such a thing existing. I would just use `view l <$> val`
2021-10-21 20:04:58 +0000 <awpr> (since the operator form would require a kinda ugly operator section)
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2021-10-21 20:05:59 +0000 <janus> i want to marry Operator Section <3
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2021-10-21 20:06:53 +0000 <awpr> I do like operator sections in general, but this case I find just looks better with the alphanumeric name (compare `(^. l) <$> val`
2021-10-21 20:06:56 +0000juhp(~juhp@128.106.188.220)
2021-10-21 20:07:04 +0000 <awpr> )
2021-10-21 20:07:06 +0000 <janus> is it ugly because it is followed by infix fmap? so `fmap (^. l) val` is ok? :P
2021-10-21 20:07:37 +0000 <awpr> hmm, even with fmap, I'd still probably write `fmap (view l) val`
2021-10-21 20:07:38 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 20:07:51 +0000 <geekosaur> operator glazeover :þ
2021-10-21 20:08:13 +0000 <aegon> awpr: didn't think of using the non operator version
2021-10-21 20:08:15 +0000 <aegon> :t compare
2021-10-21 20:08:16 +0000 <lambdabot> Ord a => a -> a -> Ordering
2021-10-21 20:08:18 +0000 <awpr> so I guess it's just that I prefer a partial application of a well-known alphanumeric-named function over an operator section
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2021-10-21 20:08:34 +0000 <awpr> ("compare" is just prose in that message)
2021-10-21 20:08:50 +0000 <aegon> :)
2021-10-21 20:09:00 +0000rond_(~rond_@2a01:115f:943:5e00:7fe4:4b4a:851b:ca4d)
2021-10-21 20:09:09 +0000 <aegon> what about val <&> (^. l)
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2021-10-21 20:09:26 +0000 <janus> Mrs Perl approves :+1:
2021-10-21 20:09:26 +0000 <aegon> i'm just guessing at that, going to go play around in ghci
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2021-10-21 20:10:02 +0000 <awpr> I think I've concluded that I'd always personally choose `view l` over `(^. l)` (when not immediately applied to another argument)
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2021-10-21 20:10:58 +0000 <janus> come on, why not just use `flip (<$>) (`(^.)` l)`
2021-10-21 20:11:14 +0000 <geekosaur> have you tried it?
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2021-10-21 20:11:59 +0000 <janus> i seems to be having some kind of problem with my diacretics, must reconfigure my keyboard configuration in nix first. i'll report back next week
2021-10-21 20:12:03 +0000 <geekosaur> (`` syntax is limited, you can't nest it that way)
2021-10-21 20:12:14 +0000 <aegon> yeah i think its clearer too, thanks for the tip, i'm still not used to thinking applicatively over monadicly
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2021-10-21 20:12:46 +0000 <geekosaur> on the one hand it's probably for the best, on the other imagine being able to `(`(`(...)`)`)`
2021-10-21 20:13:08 +0000 <geekosaur> (then think about how you'd escape the `s)
2021-10-21 20:13:22 +0000 <awpr> needs guillemets
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2021-10-21 20:13:40 +0000 <awpr> (since they can be balanced like parentheses)
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2021-10-21 20:18:33 +0000 <aegon> oh man with `view l <$> var >>= \case ...` hlint recommends a super hard to read: `var >>= (\case ...) . view Snapshot`
2021-10-21 20:19:08 +0000 <aegon> er view l
2021-10-21 20:19:25 +0000 <geekosaur> hlolint
2021-10-21 20:19:36 +0000 <aegon> oh man with `view l <$> var >>= \case ...` hlint recommends a super hard to read: `var >>= (\case ...) . view l` imo hlint is wrong here, is it optimizing for some sort of perf thing?
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2021-10-21 20:20:30 +0000 <geekosaur> imo if it is then it should be shot; fix the compiler instead
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2021-10-21 20:21:51 +0000 <awpr> that's a left-associated fmap if I'm reading it correctly
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2021-10-21 20:23:01 +0000 <aegon> it doesnt suggest any change for `var <&> (^. l) >>= \case ...` wonder whats going on here / what its trying to hint at
2021-10-21 20:23:07 +0000 <awpr> generally things should be right-associated to avoid re-traversing the whole left structure (same sort of reason you don't left-associate string concatenations)
2021-10-21 20:23:16 +0000Inst(~Inst@2601:6c4:4080:3f80:84fc:7e49:3098:491f)
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2021-10-21 20:23:45 +0000 <awpr> maybe it just doesn't know about `<&>`?
2021-10-21 20:24:01 +0000 <aegon> sos view l <$> var is left associative but the . view l is right? i need to churn on that
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2021-10-21 20:24:50 +0000 <awpr> well, `(view l <$> var) >>= f` is left-associated, and `var >>= \x -> f (view x)` is right-associate
2021-10-21 20:24:52 +0000 <awpr> d
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2021-10-21 20:26:35 +0000 <awpr> if the monad in question is a list, for example, the left version goes through the whole list to apply `view l`, then goes through that whole list to `concatMap` `f`, while the right version goes through the list just once
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2021-10-21 20:28:39 +0000 <aegon> interesting, ok, that makes sense, wow thats a possible perf hit thats very hard to keep in mind for me at the moment
2021-10-21 20:29:13 +0000 <aegon> the monad in question here is IO but i'm glad hlint yelled at me
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2021-10-21 21:08:43 +0000 <monochrom> Ah, Bird's Thinking Functionally with Haskell is the one that suffers "right before AMP".
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2021-10-21 22:06:08 +0000 <dsal> Is it possible to have a function that uses a type without declaring the type it uses? I want to make a thing that, for example, verifies round tripping of an enum without having to specify the values since it's a bounded enum already.
2021-10-21 22:06:20 +0000 <dsal> I guess I can use a Proxy.
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2021-10-21 22:07:11 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah I would use a proxy type.
2021-10-21 22:07:33 +0000 <monochrom> Type application can also be acceptable in simple cases.
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2021-10-21 22:31:08 +0000Inst(~Inst@2601:6c4:4080:3f80:e12b:5f61:be92:9101)
2021-10-21 22:31:32 +0000 <Inst> oh
2021-10-21 22:31:33 +0000 <Inst> hey guys
2021-10-21 22:31:40 +0000 <Inst> Just want to troll a bit more:
2021-10-21 22:31:50 +0000 <Inst> It turns out I have a friend who's been described as a champion influencer.
2021-10-21 22:31:56 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 22:32:14 +0000 <Inst> She's a scanlator as a hobby, meaning she scans manga (japanese comics) / manghwa (korean comics)
2021-10-21 22:32:22 +0000 <Inst> translates it, then publishes the illegal pirates
2021-10-21 22:32:30 +0000 <Inst> it turns out that in some game, #1
2021-10-21 22:32:36 +0000 <Inst> she managed to recruit 1000 or more players almost singlehandedly
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2021-10-21 22:32:58 +0000 <Inst> #2, in return for scanlated manga, she was able to use the recruited players to generate the real money equivalent of 16,000 USD
2021-10-21 22:33:25 +0000 <Inst> putting this into a haskell context
2021-10-21 22:33:56 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 22:33:57 +0000 <Inst> I'm thinking, even though HF thinks it's currently a bad idea
2021-10-21 22:34:09 +0000 <Inst> to target non-programmers and other low-level developers
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2021-10-21 22:35:32 +0000 <monochrom> I think HF is OK with targetting non-programmers, if I understand Andrew Boardman's Haskell.Love talk correctly.
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2021-10-21 22:36:26 +0000NinjaTrappeur(~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur)
2021-10-21 22:36:37 +0000 <jackdk> I have had good experience teaching Haskell to first-year university students with no prior programming experience
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2021-10-21 22:39:43 +0000 <monochrom> Low-level developers is a very different story to be sure. Multiple factors such as low ROI.
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2021-10-21 22:41:48 +0000 <jackdk> dsal: these days you could also use explicit type applications if that feels better
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2021-10-21 22:48:35 +0000 <Inst> @monochrom: the problem is the instruction, if experienced developers are bad at grokking haskell, what are the odds that non-haskell programmers would get it?
2021-10-21 22:48:35 +0000 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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2021-10-21 22:48:54 +0000 <monochrom> Indeed.
2021-10-21 22:49:01 +0000 <Inst> IMO, there's two issues, #1, the ecosystem (haskell jobs) is not properly developed, but doing a supply side drop (there's tons of coders and they all know haskell)
2021-10-21 22:49:10 +0000 <Inst> might work, although it'd be risky
2021-10-21 22:49:21 +0000 <Inst> #2, the education quality has to be assured beforehand
2021-10-21 22:49:35 +0000 <Inst> if you convert someone to try haskell, and it doesn't stick, you're going to have a much harder time trying to convert them again
2021-10-21 22:49:38 +0000mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 22:49:38 +0000 <Inst> but i'm trying to point out
2021-10-21 22:49:49 +0000 <monochrom> If 90-yos are bad at learning a musical instrument, what chance do 9-yos have? Or do they?
2021-10-21 22:49:58 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 22:50:02 +0000 <Inst> you can do a supply side drop, although it might not be "avoid success at all costs"
2021-10-21 22:50:45 +0000 <Inst> if you use a guerrilla marketing technique which is Standard Operating Procedure in China
2021-10-21 22:50:50 +0000 <Inst> i.e, use influencers to advertise your language
2021-10-21 22:50:52 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 22:51:02 +0000 <Inst> it's not "avoid success at all costs" because it'll damage Haskell's reputation
2021-10-21 22:51:18 +0000 <Inst> "that time Haskell became popular because someone dumped an advertising budget into Youtube influencers"
2021-10-21 22:51:26 +0000 <monochrom> BTW what's the connection with the champion influecer and scanlating and making 100k?
2021-10-21 22:51:39 +0000 <Inst> I mean she's a good influencer
2021-10-21 22:51:56 +0000 <Inst> she scanlated Manhwa (Korean comics) to generate the equivalent of 16,000 USD in a MMO
2021-10-21 22:51:57 +0000 <monochrom> Hell, what's the connection between those 3 in the first place hahah
2021-10-21 22:51:58 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 22:52:06 +0000 <yushyin> /fa Inst
2021-10-21 22:52:07 +0000 <Inst> by using the Manhwa as a lure
2021-10-21 22:52:10 +0000NinjaTrappeur(~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-21 22:52:14 +0000 <yushyin> oh, sorry
2021-10-21 22:52:36 +0000hendursaga(~weechat@user/hendursaga) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-10-21 22:52:47 +0000 <yushyin> damn space key
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2021-10-21 22:53:01 +0000 <aegon> i've been working on a project for ~7 months in haskell now and most of my collegues are low level code enthusiasts from the gaming land (very c++ / lua happy). My experience sharing code and war stories with them about haskell is that they actually really dig it, just don't see a route to using it professionally. I think its more a chicken and egg scenario. IMO a high quality open implementation of
2021-10-21 22:53:07 +0000 <aegon> something that people say "haskell is not good" for would do wonders
2021-10-21 22:53:57 +0000 <Inst> i mean, well, are you saying the supply side is already there?
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2021-10-21 22:54:04 +0000 <monochrom> Well, IOHK is causing people to think "Haskell is a blockchain language" now.
2021-10-21 22:54:50 +0000 <Inst> by the way
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2021-10-21 22:54:55 +0000 <aegon> i think the want to work in it is there, the route to that is unclear. I've gotten the most serious conversations about it from linking articles about low level optimization and what it looks like in haskell
2021-10-21 22:54:57 +0000 <Inst> this is 100% doable in Haskell, right?
2021-10-21 22:54:59 +0000 <Inst> The influencer girl
2021-10-21 22:55:11 +0000 <Inst> One way to sell Haskell to her would be to say, automate her scanlation process
2021-10-21 22:55:23 +0000 <Inst> build a Haskell-based framework that can process JPgs / PNGs
2021-10-21 22:55:32 +0000 <aegon> i think something low level folks really want to know is more what does optimizing look like and how painfull is it, they want simpler and more concise / composable things, they just don't want it at the cost of resources
2021-10-21 22:55:47 +0000 <Inst> run text recognition on existing text
2021-10-21 22:55:52 +0000 <Inst> aegon: but it's always at the cost of resources, no?
2021-10-21 22:55:59 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 22:56:11 +0000 <monochrom> Oh OK, I see.
2021-10-21 22:56:14 +0000 <Inst> run text recognition on an existing text, rip it off the jpg/png, and input new text
2021-10-21 22:56:29 +0000 <Inst> so she'd have a haskell-based tool for her scanlation hobby
2021-10-21 22:56:34 +0000geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 22:56:37 +0000 <Inst> and consequently she'd need haskellers to maintain it
2021-10-21 22:56:38 +0000 <aegon> Inst: debatable, it depends on if hte language gives you all the tools ot not cost resources when you don't want to. Like ify ou want to you can hack away at haskells intermediary language and pin memory etc. there are quite a few tools for optimizing haskell out there
2021-10-21 22:56:43 +0000 <monochrom> Does "low-level developer" means they write asm code? Or does it mean they are low in the corporate ladder?
2021-10-21 22:56:51 +0000 <monochrom> Because I thought the latter.
2021-10-21 22:56:52 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 22:57:00 +0000 <Inst> (very c++ / lua happy)
2021-10-21 22:57:20 +0000 <aegon> monochrom: i mean they work on game engines and such all day, trying to sqeeze perf out of consoles with bare bones hardware
2021-10-21 22:57:44 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@173-160-115-161-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
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2021-10-21 22:57:47 +0000 <monochrom> I guess in the game dev industry the two are equivalent >:)
2021-10-21 22:57:52 +0000waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2021-10-21 22:58:21 +0000geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-10-21 22:58:29 +0000 <aegon> lol
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2021-10-21 22:58:53 +0000 <Inst> i also sort of wish Android / iOS supported Haskell as compiled code ;_;
2021-10-21 22:59:03 +0000 <Inst> or at least as intermediary code for their VMs
2021-10-21 22:59:09 +0000 <Axman6> Inst: to be perfectly honest, that sounds like an incredibly boring project
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2021-10-21 22:59:32 +0000 <Inst> Axman6: you mean the autmoating scanlation thing?
2021-10-21 22:59:37 +0000 <Inst> It's boring if you're not the end-user.
2021-10-21 22:59:39 +0000 <aegon> haskell on mobile is scary to me because i don't know how to reason about the rts's garbage collector and power usage
2021-10-21 22:59:53 +0000 <monochrom> I am pessimistic about pitching to game engine tweakers.
2021-10-21 22:59:57 +0000 <aegon> if that were an option i would be concerned about power usage
2021-10-21 22:59:59 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:00:03 +0000 <Axman6> it sounds like a couple of days od work in bash, no need for haskell
2021-10-21 23:00:09 +0000waleee(~waleee@h-98-128-228-119.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2021-10-21 23:00:11 +0000 <monochrom> I now how to explain Haskell code optimization, both by hand and what GHC does.
2021-10-21 23:00:28 +0000 <monochrom> I'm also pretty sure that after I'm done, the conclusion is "carry on".
2021-10-21 23:00:38 +0000 <monochrom> s/now/know/
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2021-10-21 23:00:57 +0000 <aegon> monochrom: heh, what makes you say that. What aspect of the perf stuff.
2021-10-21 23:01:20 +0000 <Inst> I mean there's a reason I'm going initially for a C++ / Haskell combo
2021-10-21 23:01:59 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:02:14 +0000 <monochrom> Haskell code optimization involves very advanced techniques.
2021-10-21 23:02:32 +0000 <Axman6> I don;t actually think writing well performing Haskell code is that difficult, optimisation is very _different_ to other languages, but people put in a shitload of effort to learn to optimise code in other languages. I don't understand why people think that you shouldn't also spend some time learning how optimisations in haskell work
2021-10-21 23:02:37 +0000 <monochrom> and knowledge
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2021-10-21 23:02:48 +0000 <Inst> iirc is it valid to dumb it down to "Haskell, as a functional language, is going to have intrinsic performance losses compared to an imperative language"?
2021-10-21 23:02:53 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:03:07 +0000 <awpr> no. bash is an imperative language
2021-10-21 23:03:15 +0000 <monochrom> And don't seem to worth learning if one isn't forced to use Haskell.
2021-10-21 23:03:16 +0000 <aegon> i woudl like to read up on more. Yeah these are people who spend hours reading up on lvalue / rvalue semantics in new langauge standards to save a couple cycles
2021-10-21 23:03:21 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-21 23:03:31 +0000 <aegon> i'd think they'd be up to the task
2021-10-21 23:03:35 +0000 <Axman6> the C++ / Haskell combo is working well for Facebook...
2021-10-21 23:03:40 +0000 <Inst> but assembly is imperative
2021-10-21 23:03:57 +0000 <Inst> you're being sardonic, right?
2021-10-21 23:04:00 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:04:03 +0000 <Inst> given their recent massive service outage
2021-10-21 23:04:16 +0000 <Axman6> Inst: no, that's not a fair description of Haskell's performance
2021-10-21 23:04:33 +0000 <Axman6> No, it was a comment about their Sigma system
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2021-10-21 23:04:56 +0000 <monochrom> In this case, the sunk cost policy applies.
2021-10-21 23:04:58 +0000 <Inst> ah
2021-10-21 23:05:30 +0000 <Axman6> aegon: yeah exactly, and IMO optimisations in imperative languages are just kind of boring
2021-10-21 23:05:31 +0000NinjaTrappeur(~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur)
2021-10-21 23:05:45 +0000 <monochrom> Hypothetically if you are starting to write a game engine from scratch now, Haskell and C++ are equally painful, just in different ways.
2021-10-21 23:06:00 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:06:01 +0000 <Inst> who writes game engines from scratch now?
2021-10-21 23:06:10 +0000 <monochrom> But who actually starts to write a game engine from scratch now?
2021-10-21 23:06:13 +0000 <Axman6> like, I love me some low level code, I keep a copy of Hacker's Delight on hand for a reason, because I like writing that sort of code, but real optimisation comes from a higher level
2021-10-21 23:06:20 +0000 <Inst> iirc they just license an engine and call it a day
2021-10-21 23:06:29 +0000kong4ndrew(~kong4ndre@199.247.111.247)
2021-10-21 23:06:31 +0000 <monochrom> All the existing game engine tweakers have already finished learning C++ optimizations.
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2021-10-21 23:07:07 +0000 <Inst> have you seen, like, Astral Chain?
2021-10-21 23:07:08 +0000 <geekosaur> doesn't Cale's company have a Haskell game engine? then again who's going to license it much less learn how to tweak it
2021-10-21 23:07:19 +0000 <monochrom> "carry on" carries no extra cost, that cost is already sunk. "switch to Haskell" carries huge extra costs, this is important even though it's <= C++ sunk cost.
2021-10-21 23:07:55 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-21 23:07:57 +0000 <Inst> it's amazing since Astral Chain was originally intended to be multiplatform, but it ended up being a Nintendo Switch exclusive
2021-10-21 23:08:00 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:08:10 +0000 <Inst> and the Switch is running on mobile hardware
2021-10-21 23:08:19 +0000 <Inst> but it looks incredible
2021-10-21 23:08:54 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:08:57 +0000 <Inst> just saying ,the optimizers have gotten really good
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2021-10-21 23:10:16 +0000 <aegon> yeah, a lot of that is that the graphics apis have gotten really flexible, and ify ou know the exact hardware your running on you can do silly things like optimize thread timing and pin threads / spread them out optimally across the given cores
2021-10-21 23:10:44 +0000 <Axman6> Inst: I have to ask, do you have a point to any of this? I feel like you're saying a lot of stuff while not saying very much at all, and "Just want to troll a bit more" is feeling more and more true by the minute.
2021-10-21 23:10:54 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:10:56 +0000 <aegon> a lot of work in pushing consoles is staring at cor usages and tweaking
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2021-10-21 23:13:11 +0000 <aegon> monochrom: aye, ultimately all of them were more open to it as a langauge that could be used but happy with c++. I want to some day play around with a game engine in hask but the recent findings about run time library loading on windows are a downer. If you have refernce on haskell optimization i'd love to grab em and read through it. I'm workign off of what i've been able to find on the wiki and some blog
2021-10-21 23:13:17 +0000 <aegon> posts
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2021-10-21 23:14:04 +0000 <aegon> also apparently up untill GHC 9 the concurrency loop was using an incorrect api from the kernel and messing with the scheduler / greedy looping?
2021-10-21 23:14:19 +0000 <Inst> i mean the point re astral chain is that it's a heavily optimized game that uses certain tweaks to be able to run on mobile hardware, but taking a 10-20% penalty in haskell might make it inoperable
2021-10-21 23:14:21 +0000 <aegon> i forget the talk but i think it was sometime recent
2021-10-21 23:14:55 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:15:03 +0000 <aegon> Inst: i'm not sure haskell woudl incur a 10 - 20% penalty given what i've read and how much of that is actually just shipping things off to the gpu / apu
2021-10-21 23:15:14 +0000 <Inst> it already has framerate drops on existing hardware, although it's also an example insofar as switch devs typically make stylistic choices in order to avoid taxing the tegra x1
2021-10-21 23:15:32 +0000 <Axman6> I've never considered making games in Haskell, it doesn't seem like a niche it would be well suited to, making other real world apps makes much more sense.
2021-10-21 23:16:01 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:16:18 +0000[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2021-10-21 23:16:38 +0000 <sm> lots of people have though, #haskell-game:matrix.org / #haskell-game:libera.chat is where they hang out
2021-10-21 23:16:50 +0000 <Axman6> the gaming world has found their local minima with C++ (and really, pushing everything to the GPU). I can't see what advantages there would be persuing that given the amount of money invested in the games world already
2021-10-21 23:16:55 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:17:05 +0000 <aegon> Inst: a lot of times frame hiccups are caused by memory allocation /deallocation or reading from disk more so than cpu throughput, i'm not sure haskell would be better or worse w.r.t.
2021-10-21 23:17:39 +0000 <Axman6> yeah absolutely, not saying it can't be done, but the fact that Haskell isn't (currently) well suited to that domain doesn't make it not a good choice of language for gettingh real work done. It'd been paying my bills doing that for like 7 years, so something's working out
2021-10-21 23:18:02 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:18:37 +0000 <Inst> also given that virtually everyone's already running off an engine, and everything else is just a mod to an engine, would haskell actually be useful since development and testing times wouldn't necessarily be that big a part of total development?
2021-10-21 23:18:49 +0000 <Inst> they spend a lot of time and resources on graphical assets, music, plots, etc
2021-10-21 23:18:55 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:19:09 +0000 <aegon> i'm just a haskell enthusiast from the gaming world, I want to try pushing it into that niche for fun. c++20 concepts might change my mind but i'm tired of pushing things in that world from a c++ perspective, its like infinate boiler plate thats inflexible no matter what you do
2021-10-21 23:19:09 +0000 <Inst> total development -> add resource expenditures
2021-10-21 23:19:10 +0000 <Cale> geekosaur: It's not really in a state where it would be licenseable at the moment... and it's full of arrow-y FRP, which we'd probably want to rewrite to use Reflex if we were resuscitating it today.
2021-10-21 23:20:02 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:20:15 +0000 <Axman6> Can someone do something about Guest372?
2021-10-21 23:20:36 +0000 <Axman6> just realised every second line of my log is them joining or parting
2021-10-21 23:20:40 +0000 <Inst> aegon: maybe if someone needs a completely different engine, there might be a chance to get haskell in there
2021-10-21 23:20:53 +0000 <aegon> Axman6: lol, connection woes?
2021-10-21 23:20:55 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:21:09 +0000 <sm> I think Zig is more likely the next big thing for games, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28897469
2021-10-21 23:21:17 +0000hendursaga(~weechat@user/hendursaga)
2021-10-21 23:21:21 +0000 <Inst> alternate possibility: they're on mobile internet
2021-10-21 23:21:40 +0000 <Inst> and they're driving in and out of a tunnel, say, in Italy or something
2021-10-21 23:21:59 +0000 <Inst> oh, cool
2021-10-21 23:22:02 +0000 <Inst> i just checked the IP out
2021-10-21 23:22:03 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:22:47 +0000peterhil(~peterhil@dsl-hkibng32-54fb56-2.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-21 23:22:56 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:23:08 +0000peterhil(~peterhil@dsl-hkibng32-54fb56-2.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-10-21 23:23:12 +0000 <sm> so here's a piece of haskell-related trivia: if you're using Show/Read to serialise/deserialise, you can use pretty-show to make a more human readable format, and still read by just stripping the newlines
2021-10-21 23:23:42 +0000 <Inst> is it considered rude to point out guest372's ip?
2021-10-21 23:24:02 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:24:04 +0000 <sm> usually a bit invasive and off topic Inst, yes
2021-10-21 23:24:19 +0000 <Axman6> and we can all see it if we want to
2021-10-21 23:24:20 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-50.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-10-21 23:24:24 +0000 <aegon> also its not hidden in irc, i get a message with it everytime they leave or go
2021-10-21 23:24:27 +0000 <Inst> no, but where the IP resolves to
2021-10-21 23:24:29 +0000 <davean> Inst: probably considered generally passive agressive to do it indirectly.
2021-10-21 23:24:39 +0000 <Inst> fine, it's an alibaba ip
2021-10-21 23:24:56 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:25:08 +0000 <Inst> then again, alibaba has cloud services so it might have nothing to do with the actual firm
2021-10-21 23:25:31 +0000 <aegon> yeah I'd feel uncomfortable if someone started discussing my geolocation even though its out there by default
2021-10-21 23:25:45 +0000 <davean> Especially being so weird about it
2021-10-21 23:25:50 +0000 <davean> instead of just saying what they want to get at
2021-10-21 23:26:02 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:26:04 +0000 <davean> like clearly Inst is uncomfortable with what they're thinking, which is super suspicious
2021-10-21 23:26:07 +0000Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:a891:322d:b92c:f184) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:26:10 +0000 <sm> so can we talk about Haskell again
2021-10-21 23:26:15 +0000 <davean> Please
2021-10-21 23:26:20 +0000 <Axman6> yeah
2021-10-21 23:26:55 +0000 <Inst> davean: it's cloud, but I just thought it would have been cool if Alibaba programmers were expressing an interest in Haskell
2021-10-21 23:26:56 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:27:02 +0000 <sm> Can Haskell Be Marketed To Beginners As A Better Python
2021-10-21 23:27:03 +0000 <Axman6> hey anyone want to review a PR on my package amazonka-s3-streaming? it's been mostly rewritten because it was honestly absolutely awful initally https://github.com/axman6/amazonka-s3-streaming/pull/25
2021-10-21 23:27:44 +0000 <sm> also, when GHC 9.2!
2021-10-21 23:27:53 +0000 <davean> sm: Oh man
2021-10-21 23:27:55 +0000 <davean> sm: uh about that
2021-10-21 23:28:03 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:28:04 +0000 <Axman6> sm: yes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvECNQRrjCY
2021-10-21 23:28:06 +0000 <davean> WTF knows
2021-10-21 23:28:21 +0000 <Axman6> GHC 9.2????
2021-10-21 23:28:25 +0000 <aegon> sm: pythoners don't know what types are
2021-10-21 23:28:34 +0000aegonlet my bias out
2021-10-21 23:28:47 +0000 <aegon> i worked in it for 6 years in the web world and its maddening
2021-10-21 23:28:47 +0000 <davean> Axman6: Yah, its a bit cursed with fixes ATM
2021-10-21 23:28:57 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:29:08 +0000 <aegon> loose dicts everywhere
2021-10-21 23:29:27 +0000 <Axman6> I've been translating a python project into HAskell, they've gone all in on using the python typing stuff, makes the job a hell of a lot easier
2021-10-21 23:29:42 +0000 <sm> nice
2021-10-21 23:29:59 +0000 <Axman6> (it's code from Microsoft that's pretty academic so I'm not too surprised)
2021-10-21 23:30:03 +0000 <aegon> thats rare imo, i have yet to see a python project at a company attempt types
2021-10-21 23:30:03 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:30:11 +0000 <Axman6> loose dicts sink ships
2021-10-21 23:30:23 +0000 <Inst> lol ax, sorry, i'll stop annoying you guys
2021-10-21 23:30:34 +0000 <Inst> nice video
2021-10-21 23:30:48 +0000 <Axman6> I think this has been using types from the outset, and it feels fairly haskellish a lot of the time. deciding when something should be a typeclass is a bit of a pain
2021-10-21 23:30:57 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:30:59 +0000 <davean> aegon: Do the python programmers you know not write type systems?
2021-10-21 23:31:21 +0000 <monochrom> "Inside every Haskell discussion is a Python discussion that tries to get out" >:)
2021-10-21 23:31:24 +0000 <davean> aegon: you know types are required for some of the accelerated python stuff?
2021-10-21 23:31:36 +0000 <davean> aegon: several companies I know use the python-to-machine-code compilation stuff
2021-10-21 23:31:49 +0000 <aegon> davean: heallll no. its funcs that take dicts all the way down.
2021-10-21 23:32:03 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:32:13 +0000 <davean> I mean thats the language semantics sure - but that deosn't mean the dicts aren't nominal structures
2021-10-21 23:32:22 +0000 <aegon> but i jumped from web land to game / graphics land ~4-ish years ago and have only ever gone back to python to play with machine learning so I'm probably out of date there
2021-10-21 23:32:37 +0000 <davean> aegon: yah I'm talking web python here
2021-10-21 23:32:40 +0000 <aegon> and most the companies i interact with are now using node / typescript for web stuff
2021-10-21 23:32:48 +0000 <Axman6> I feel like every haskeller who comes up against criticism from pythonisters should have that video on speed dial
2021-10-21 23:32:57 +0000 <davean> aegon: honestly its the web where I've seen python need the performance to get compiled with types
2021-10-21 23:32:57 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:33:32 +0000 <davean> Things like science and machine learning and data analysis are all on like numpy and scipy that have C backends already
2021-10-21 23:33:45 +0000 <davean> its the business logic stuff thats slow and needs direct perforamnce improvements
2021-10-21 23:34:04 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:34:10 +0000 <davean> anyway, still not Haskell, but at least closer :)
2021-10-21 23:34:57 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:35:54 +0000 <aegon> roger. I hope i don't hav to python again but it wouldn't be the end of the world. the type system last time i used it felt about on par with typescripts stuff. I didn't know they were using it to inform compilation anywhere
2021-10-21 23:36:04 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:36:54 +0000 <aegon> i've been eager to try my hand at optimizing some haskell after reading up on it but haven't come across any place where its needed yet. monochrom do have a good toy project idea that will put in c-- land? :D or other resources on optimization
2021-10-21 23:36:57 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:37:15 +0000 <aegon> i guess i should say optimizing GHC
2021-10-21 23:37:18 +0000 <davean> aegon: oh optimizing Haskell is fun!
2021-10-21 23:37:28 +0000 <monochrom> I don't.
2021-10-21 23:37:39 +0000 <davean> I did a talk on that almost a year ago now
2021-10-21 23:38:04 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:38:06 +0000 <monochrom> But look for "fusion" papers and SPJ's "core" talks.
2021-10-21 23:38:33 +0000 <monochrom> "core" referring to the intermediate language in GHC.
2021-10-21 23:38:58 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:39:32 +0000 <monochrom> SPJ's "core" talks don't just teach you it, they also show you an optimization pass that interested SPJ at the time of the talk.
2021-10-21 23:40:04 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:40:21 +0000 <davean> aegon: what sort of optimizations are you interested in doing?
2021-10-21 23:40:58 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:41:18 +0000 <davean> Are you interested in optizing Haskell libraries, programs, GHC specificly, or the code GHC produces in general (Or something I've missed as an option)
2021-10-21 23:41:38 +0000 <aegon> monochrom: awesome, collecting links based on those criteria
2021-10-21 23:42:05 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
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2021-10-21 23:43:36 +0000 <aegon> davean: i want to have more experience optimizing memory usage and the code ghc produces. Get a better feel for reasoning about how nested recursion or iterating over a list is going ot actually play out in core land and if it doesen't remove the complexity i expect it to, where to poke or look for in the source
2021-10-21 23:43:38 +0000natechan(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-10-21 23:44:05 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-21 23:44:06 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:44:11 +0000 <davean> Ok so specific programs (or maybe libraries)
2021-10-21 23:44:13 +0000jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d4da80.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-10-21 23:44:26 +0000 <aegon> i'm writing haskell right now as if its going to take everything up into lambda calculus land and distill it into the best iterative set of instructions possible but i know thats a pretty brittle / bad assumption
2021-10-21 23:44:59 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:45:20 +0000MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-10-21 23:45:27 +0000 <aegon> I've read up on fusion, inlining pragmas, the stages of compilation but just have no reasonable experince with hacking at any of it. The stuff i've written so far performs well enough which means GHC is great :D because i'm not being particularly careful
2021-10-21 23:46:05 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:46:14 +0000 <davean> yah usually GHC compiles Haskell code well, even though it doesn't even try that hard
2021-10-21 23:46:54 +0000 <aegon> but I'm also mainly processing lazy bytestrings for the "work" of the application. I should probably be forming everything as pipes or with conduit but when i started those were super scary libraries
2021-10-21 23:46:54 +0000 <sm> Axman6: I have now watched your video and understand, that's great :)
2021-10-21 23:46:59 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:47:11 +0000 <sm> this new language looks a bit verbose, but powerful
2021-10-21 23:47:13 +0000 <davean> aegon: oh but machines is so much more fun :)
2021-10-21 23:47:45 +0000 <Axman6> verbosity gives the ~compiler~ interpreter more options for optimisation
2021-10-21 23:48:01 +0000 <awpr> lazy bytestrings get a lot of undeserved hate because they get conflated with lazy IO returning lazy bytestrings
2021-10-21 23:48:05 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:48:13 +0000 <monochrom> I like the machines package too.
2021-10-21 23:48:19 +0000 <monochrom> My only complain is:
2021-10-21 23:48:23 +0000akspecs__(~akspecs@user/akspecs) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-10-21 23:48:26 +0000 <monochrom> Data.Machine and Control.Lens
2021-10-21 23:48:39 +0000 <monochrom> Does anyone see the oxymorons I see?
2021-10-21 23:48:50 +0000 <monochrom> Why is it not Control.Machine and Data.Lens?
2021-10-21 23:48:50 +0000 <geekosaur> that ship sank years ago :(
2021-10-21 23:48:56 +0000 <davean> monochrom: Oh I see it, but I just read them as different jokes
2021-10-21 23:48:57 +0000 <awpr> at this point `Data.` is basically the `.com` of Haskell module names
2021-10-21 23:48:59 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:49:18 +0000 <davean> I really just need to figure out my selector transformer semantics
2021-10-21 23:49:21 +0000renzhi(~xp@2607:fa49:6500:b100::6e7f) (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2021-10-21 23:49:21 +0000 <monochrom> Both Data. and Control. are .com
2021-10-21 23:49:24 +0000 <davean> So I can publish that package :(
2021-10-21 23:49:33 +0000 <davean> instead of just having a bunch of non-composible transformers
2021-10-21 23:49:39 +0000 <monochrom> Hell, even better:
2021-10-21 23:50:02 +0000 <awpr> `Com.Kmett.Lens` go full Java style
2021-10-21 23:50:05 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:50:08 +0000 <davean> I'm actually sad "Control.Lens" wasn't just "Lens"
2021-10-21 23:50:13 +0000 <geekosaur> Control is a misnomer because your data *is* control structures
2021-10-21 23:50:25 +0000 <monochrom> (|Data> + |Control>)/sqrt2 = (|.com> + |.org|)/sqrt2
2021-10-21 23:50:59 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:51:39 +0000 <geekosaur> and of course everything is data, so we reach ==davean
2021-10-21 23:52:03 +0000 <geekosaur> well, or codata
2021-10-21 23:52:06 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
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2021-10-21 23:53:27 +0000 <aegon> Axman6: python 5 looks dope
2021-10-21 23:54:06 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
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2021-10-21 23:56:06 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
2021-10-21 23:56:56 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c703cb932154b917507392a6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-10-21 23:57:00 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-21 23:58:06 +0000Guest372(~xxx@47.245.54.240)
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2021-10-21 23:59:39 +0000 <dolio> They're on 5 now? I thought 3 was still controversial.