IRCBrowse

2021/06/08

2021-06-08 00:02:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-06-08 00:18:27 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 00:22:09 +0200nikoo
2021-06-08 00:28:00 +0200werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-06-08 00:28:34 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0)
2021-06-08 00:32:25 +0200 <janus> is there a way to negate MIN_PACKAGE_base ?
2021-06-08 00:32:37 +0200 <janus> i tried with "!", and that didn't seem to work
2021-06-08 00:33:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 00:34:07 +0200 <janus> MIN_VERSION, i meant
2021-06-08 00:35:48 +0200 <janus> oooh it dooooes work :), just got a similar error from another file :P
2021-06-08 00:36:39 +0200 <juri_> stan is unforgiving. i've been working for weeks to get my code from 500 stan warnings down to 330... and i've improved my project health from 59.09% to 61.36%.
2021-06-08 00:37:02 +0200BosonCollider(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2021-06-08 00:44:08 +0200BosonCollider(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com)
2021-06-08 00:46:24 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 00:46:34 +0200 <janus> where do i ask trustees to make revisions bumping base bounds?
2021-06-08 00:48:03 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 00:48:30 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-08 00:53:41 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-06-08 00:53:47 +0200 <janus> the packages cryptohash-md5 and cryptohash-sha1 both work fine with bumped base bounds, but they havn't been revision bumped. and hvr is missing so that's why i am counting on the trustees
2021-06-08 00:55:12 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-89-117.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 00:56:09 +0200 <sm[m]> janus: the hackage front page links to a Hackage trustees wiki page which looks informative
2021-06-08 00:56:27 +0200 <sm[m]> you could also try #hackage
2021-06-08 00:56:46 +0200 <janus> all right, thanks, i'll try #hackage
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2021-06-08 03:00:25 +0200yd502(~yd502@180.168.212.6)
2021-06-08 03:02:21 +0200 <blankhart> when this paper (https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3371121) says that "guessing the right answer is typical of declarative type systems" what precisely is meant by "guess"?
2021-06-08 03:03:23 +0200yd502_(~yd502@180.168.212.6)
2021-06-08 03:04:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 03:04:30 +0200 <blankhart> the paper is talking about guessing in recursive binding groups and adding kinds to a context before looking at the related declarations
2021-06-08 03:06:32 +0200 <cdsmith> Yes, I suppose it just means that the declarative specification of the type system cannot be interpreted as an algorithm, or used as an implementation, because you need to know what the kinds are before you can evaluate the claims there.
2021-06-08 03:06:34 +0200yd502(~yd502@180.168.212.6) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 03:07:35 +0200 <blankhart> is the point that in "algorithmic type systems" a unification variable is used but in a declarative system the kind is "guessed" in the sense of being solved by whatever algorithm implements the system?
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2021-06-08 03:10:25 +0200v01d4lph4(~v01d4lph4@user/v01d4lph4)
2021-06-08 03:11:15 +0200 <cdsmith> I'm not sure of the details here, sorry. Maybe someone else can help more!
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2021-06-08 03:14:54 +0200Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 03:15:59 +0200 <ski> blankhart : i think "guess" means that there's no way to order the premises, viewed as (calls to) relations that compute outputs from inputs, in such a way that every (meta-)variable is output before it needs to be input (considering the inputs of the conclusion relation as "initial inputs", and the corresponding outputs as "final outputs")
2021-06-08 03:16:15 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5287:b700:62cf:6f80:f269:aa87)
2021-06-08 03:17:06 +0200Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
2021-06-08 03:19:38 +0200 <blankhart> so, for starters, we don't mean "guess" in the sense of something that might be wrong. it is more like, we consult an oracle that tells us what the answer would be if we had a constraint solving algorithm?
2021-06-08 03:20:14 +0200 <cdsmith> Yes, "consult an oracle" sounds like exactly what they mean.
2021-06-08 03:20:23 +0200 <ski> i believe that's the idea, yes
2021-06-08 03:21:08 +0200 <blankhart> thanks both
2021-06-08 03:21:28 +0200 <ski> (having some knowledge of logic programming is relevant here)
2021-06-08 03:22:52 +0200 <blankhart> well haskell is declarative, so i was trying to think of an analogy with mutually recursive let bindings, but couldn't really get one that i would describe as involving "guessing"
2021-06-08 03:24:23 +0200 <ski> well, the "declarative" in "declarative typing rules" isn't really related to the one in "declarative programming paradigm"
2021-06-08 03:25:14 +0200 <cdsmith> Well, in some sense recursive let bindings present a similar issue, in that there could be multiple values that satisfy the system of equations. But we also have an algorithmic interpretation involving least fixed points in the definedness order. So that's the sense in which Haskell is more "algorithmic" and not purely "declarative" in the paper's usage of the words.
2021-06-08 03:26:13 +0200 <ski> yes, recursive `let' also needs "guessing" in the same sense
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2021-06-08 03:27:32 +0200 <blankhart> that was the missing piece thank you
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2021-06-08 03:30:43 +0200 <ski> (btw, i think i've heard the term "guess" even used in situations like e.g. the typing rule for function application, in that there's a (meta-)variable that occurs in the premises, that doesn't appear in the conclusion, and so, if you're attempting to build a typing derivation tree, from the root, you'd have to "guess" the argument type, when coming to an application. this corresponds to viewing all
2021-06-08 03:30:49 +0200 <ski> (judgement) relation parameters as "input". however, at least in a typing (as opposed to a more general derivation, or logic programming, context) context, i think it's common to consider them as having both input and output parameters. cf. bidirectional type checking)
2021-06-08 03:31:58 +0200 <ski> (for comparision, for deductive databases, all parameters would be considered "output", as the derivation tree is built bottom-up (rather than top-down), from the leaves/facts (rather than from the root/goal))
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2021-06-08 03:37:08 +0200 <blankhart> algorithmically interpreted as call by need, call by value, call by...both
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2021-06-08 03:39:59 +0200 <blankhart> so the point of a "syntax-directed
2021-06-08 03:40:02 +0200 <ski> hm ?
2021-06-08 03:40:23 +0200 <blankhart> " declarative specification is that it is also algorithmic in that there is no need to guess?
2021-06-08 03:40:45 +0200 <ski> not sure of a relation to the call-by-* stuff
2021-06-08 03:41:33 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0)
2021-06-08 03:43:03 +0200 <ski> blankhart : i'd say it's not that simple. i think syntax-directed would mean that there's only one (or maybe at most a few ?) rules to consider / choose from, given the term (or whatever one is syntax-directed wrt) as an input. but there could still be other (meta-)variables that would need to be "guessed", in the application of the selected rule
2021-06-08 03:44:02 +0200ski. o O ( attribute grammars )
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2021-06-08 03:52:27 +0200 <blankhart> thank you ski i will think more about that
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2021-06-08 05:09:42 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net) ()
2021-06-08 05:11:18 +0200 <guest61> ski, dminuoso https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/W9DG6yNQjj/
2021-06-08 05:11:59 +0200 <guest61> this is what yesterday code change to
2021-06-08 05:12:52 +0200jao(~mail@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-06-08 05:13:10 +0200 <guest61> using IO a as b in maybe is neat
2021-06-08 05:13:19 +0200 <guest61> :t maybe
2021-06-08 05:13:20 +0200 <lambdabot> b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
2021-06-08 05:13:41 +0200blizzard(~winter@2603-6011-f901-9e5b-78b5-8b2f-cdb2-4171.res6.spectrum.com)
2021-06-08 05:14:07 +0200 <guest61> maybe turn Maybe a to IO a, interesting
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2021-06-08 08:44:27 +0200 <xsperry> guest61, pattern match would probably be nicer than null/head. args <- getArgs case args of [fileName] -> … _ -> …
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2021-06-08 09:00:55 +0200chexum(~chexum@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2021-06-08 09:01:24 +0200 <dminuoso> guest61: By the way, this is not how parser combinators are intended to be used. :)
2021-06-08 09:01:45 +0200hmmmas(~chenqisu1@183.217.201.236)
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2021-06-08 09:34:06 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5287:b700:fd06:69cd:4944:8b25) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 09:34:08 +0200boxscape(~boxscape@user/boxscape)
2021-06-08 09:34:45 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5287:b700:8416:9e9:b58b:926d)
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2021-06-08 09:39:43 +0200ubert1(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf259d2de6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-06-08 09:41:03 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-06-08 09:42:06 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 09:42:12 +0200yd502(~yd502@180.168.212.6) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 09:42:27 +0200tv(~tv@user/tv)
2021-06-08 09:44:28 +0200yd502(~yd502@180.168.212.6)
2021-06-08 09:45:37 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28)
2021-06-08 09:46:13 +0200ubert1(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf259d2de6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-08 09:48:34 +0200involans(~alex@cpc92718-cmbg20-2-0-cust157.5-4.cable.virginm.net)
2021-06-08 09:50:33 +0200 <guest61> dminuoso you mean I should parse and return a map not a list?
2021-06-08 09:51:43 +0200 <dminuoso> Or better yet, straight the Config itself.
2021-06-08 09:52:26 +0200 <dminuoso> Consider using a big record `data Config = Config { cfgMode :: Mode, cfgUser :: String, cfgPassword :: String, cfgPort :: Int }`
2021-06-08 09:52:35 +0200 <dminuoso> And have your parser build up that Config
2021-06-08 09:52:47 +0200 <dminuoso> If there's settings that are allowed to be optional, use `Maybe`
2021-06-08 09:55:14 +0200 <guest61> dminuoso https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/BpdDdZCxP4/
2021-06-08 09:56:37 +0200 <guest61> dminuoso I did return a tuple
2021-06-08 09:56:57 +0200 <dminuoso> The paste is incomplete, then
2021-06-08 09:57:07 +0200 <guest61> (a,b) is tuple? pair? how you call it?
2021-06-08 09:57:08 +0200 <dminuoso> Either way, the point is that the parser itself return that data structure
2021-06-08 09:57:20 +0200 <dminuoso> tuple, 2-tuple, pair
2021-06-08 09:57:22 +0200 <dminuoso> Either works
2021-06-08 09:58:39 +0200 <guest61> print r3 -- Right [Just ("a","b")]
2021-06-08 09:58:47 +0200 <boxscape> (if we were strictly following the "n-tuple" nomenclature it'd be "double" but no one says that)
2021-06-08 09:59:16 +0200 <dminuoso> Personally I say <n>-tuple
2021-06-08 09:59:26 +0200 <guest61> dminuoso parser shouldn't return data structure? what's the right way to do?
2021-06-08 09:59:35 +0200 <dminuoso> The parser should, but consider using a data type for it.
2021-06-08 09:59:41 +0200 <dminuoso> Let me give you some sketch
2021-06-08 10:02:34 +0200 <dminuoso> guest61: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/d4e8fc5fa0c647a6fd1bfa342614b840
2021-06-08 10:02:36 +0200 <dminuoso> Something along these lines
2021-06-08 10:03:14 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5287:b700:8416:9e9:b58b:926d) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:03:55 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5287:b700:b1a7:c5b9:6672:3b03)
2021-06-08 10:04:36 +0200 <guest61> dminuoso oh, you use a data structure instead of a map
2021-06-08 10:05:56 +0200hnOsmium0001(uid453710@id-453710.stonehaven.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-06-08 10:07:09 +0200hendursa1(~weechat@user/hendursaga)
2021-06-08 10:07:54 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47)
2021-06-08 10:09:53 +0200 <dminuoso> Yes.
2021-06-08 10:10:30 +0200 <dminuoso> This leads to more robust code, because you can for one have varying types as content, and the field names are pre-known.
2021-06-08 10:10:31 +0200hendursaga(~weechat@user/hendursaga) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:10:51 +0200hendursa1(~weechat@user/hendursaga) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 10:10:54 +0200 <dminuoso> maps are better suited for when the associations are known only at runtime
2021-06-08 10:11:14 +0200hendursa1(~weechat@user/hendursaga)
2021-06-08 10:11:30 +0200anon(~anon@176.59.52.187)
2021-06-08 10:12:36 +0200 <boxscape> (Oh, the wikipedia page on "tuple" also gives the word "couple" for the 2-tuple, but I've never heard that one being used either)
2021-06-08 10:13:19 +0200wonko(~wjc@62.115.229.50)
2021-06-08 10:13:25 +0200 <guest61> boxscape so there is triple?
2021-06-08 10:13:35 +0200 <boxscape> triple is sometimes used, yes
2021-06-08 10:14:09 +0200 <boxscape> (as in, for example, the "Kleisli triple")
2021-06-08 10:14:22 +0200 <guest61> english is weird, once, twice, thrice, what about fourice? fivice? no
2021-06-08 10:14:25 +0200wonko(~wjc@62.115.229.50) (Changing host)
2021-06-08 10:14:25 +0200wonko(~wjc@user/wonko)
2021-06-08 10:14:41 +0200 <boxscape> heh to be fair I think a lot of languages have special cases for small numbers
2021-06-08 10:14:44 +0200 <guest61> couple triple, fourple?
2021-06-08 10:14:55 +0200 <c_wraith> English is fine when you realize it isn't one language. It's about 30 mashed together
2021-06-08 10:15:09 +0200 <siraben> Is there a `transpose` equivalent for Data.Vector?
2021-06-08 10:15:21 +0200 <siraben> I need it to behave the same as List's transpose
2021-06-08 10:15:33 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 10:16:16 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf259d2d3d1bf7f6f1f48366.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 10:16:30 +0200 <dminuoso> Shouldn't it be fove and fice?
2021-06-08 10:16:50 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-06-08 10:17:07 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf259d2de6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-06-08 10:17:12 +0200 <guest61> look at prince and price, what's the related?
2021-06-08 10:17:39 +0200 <maerwald> being prince is priceless
2021-06-08 10:20:15 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-06-08 10:20:38 +0200 <guest61> finance and fiance, what's the related?
2021-06-08 10:21:15 +0200 <keltono> who let my dad into #haskell? :P
2021-06-08 10:21:51 +0200 <c_wraith> I'm not sure "similar spelling => similar meaning" holds in any language
2021-06-08 10:22:05 +0200 <maerwald> guest61: that isn't really a hard one...
2021-06-08 10:22:15 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-94-34-34-125.clienti.tiscali.it) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:22:23 +0200 <tdammers> all languages are weird when it comes to counting and numbers
2021-06-08 10:23:01 +0200 <guest61> even the word haskell, h ask ell, permutation it, one would be hell ask or ask hell?
2021-06-08 10:23:04 +0200azeem(~azeem@176.201.35.122)
2021-06-08 10:23:05 +0200[exa]remembers french 90s
2021-06-08 10:23:13 +0200jorjor(~jorgemene@85.251.190.6.dyn.user.ono.com)
2021-06-08 10:23:36 +0200tomsmeding. o O ( 4 * 20 + 19 )
2021-06-08 10:23:49 +0200 <tdammers> German, for example, has special words for eleven and twelve (like English), but from thirteen on, it's regular. French has special words up to 16 (seize). Spanish has much the same, but only up to 15.
2021-06-08 10:24:05 +0200 <tdammers> and yeah, four-twenty ten-nine
2021-06-08 10:24:27 +0200 <tdammers> the history of all that is interesting
2021-06-08 10:24:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> tdammers: and Dutch has up to 14 :)
2021-06-08 10:25:02 +0200 <tdammers> tomsmeding: I'd argue that Dutch only has truly special words up to 12, just like German and English; the ones above are "calcified" versions of regular ones
2021-06-08 10:25:10 +0200 <[exa]> like, it's an improvement since MCMXLXXXX or what
2021-06-08 10:25:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> fair
2021-06-08 10:25:19 +0200 <tdammers> "veertien" is just "vier-tien" that didn't get the spelling memo
2021-06-08 10:26:33 +0200 <[exa]> (now, please allow me to steer this conversation to the related comprehension of time intervals that depend on planet rotation)
2021-06-08 10:26:55 +0200ekaj(~ekaj@188.163.29.25)
2021-06-08 10:26:56 +0200ekaj(~ekaj@188.163.29.25) (K-Lined)
2021-06-08 10:27:30 +0200 <c_wraith> Romans didn't even use the super-formalized system we credit them with. they'd be just as happy to write 4 as IIII as IV
2021-06-08 10:27:59 +0200letiw(~letiw@130.105.222.195)
2021-06-08 10:28:34 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2021-06-08 10:29:37 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:30:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> guest61: I dare bet your language has the same issue with words that look much alike but mean something very different :)
2021-06-08 10:30:58 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-06-08 10:31:47 +0200kuribas(~user@ptr-25vy0i7u51qchbo4u5u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2021-06-08 10:32:16 +0200 <dminuoso> guest61: One of things I learned to love, is making data types. Many data types.
2021-06-08 10:32:27 +0200 <dminuoso> You can never have enough data types and newtypes in your program.
2021-06-08 10:33:42 +0200justBull(~justache@user/justache) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 10:33:47 +0200 <tdammers> c_wraith: yes, and they'd be equally happy to use the C symbol to mean "a troop of ideally 100 soldiers, but realistically probably a good bit smaller"
2021-06-08 10:34:00 +0200 <tdammers> they were quite pragmatic
2021-06-08 10:34:35 +0200justBull(~justache@user/justache)
2021-06-08 10:35:00 +0200 <tdammers> in a similar fashion, their "distance" units (Roman miles) were really more like travel time estimates, and most of their maps would mark not distances, but how many days it would take someone to walk
2021-06-08 10:35:37 +0200 <guest61> dminuoso that senior haskell expert always define some date types I can't understand
2021-06-08 10:36:04 +0200agumonke`(~user@88.160.31.174)
2021-06-08 10:36:20 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf259d2de6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:36:51 +0200aplainzetakind(~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net) (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net)
2021-06-08 10:37:28 +0200aplainzetakind(~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net)
2021-06-08 10:37:58 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2021-06-08 10:40:48 +0200hmmmas(~chenqisu1@183.217.201.236) (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-06-08 10:40:51 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 10:41:01 +0200 <guest61> f a = wrap (g 0# (unwrap a)) what's # meaning here?
2021-06-08 10:41:35 +0200kmein(~weechat@user/kmein) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:41:39 +0200 <guest61> g :: forall a# . (Num# a#, Unwrap a ~ a#) => a# -> a# -> a#
2021-06-08 10:41:42 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2021-06-08 10:41:46 +0200 <guest61> what 's # here?
2021-06-08 10:42:07 +0200xerox(~edi@user/edi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:42:29 +0200 <c_wraith> part of identifiers/literals
2021-06-08 10:42:31 +0200xerox(~edi@user/edi)
2021-06-08 10:42:41 +0200kmein(~weechat@user/kmein)
2021-06-08 10:42:41 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 10:43:18 +0200 <guest61> consume :: a %m -> () what's % here?
2021-06-08 10:43:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> the # in a# and Num# is just part of the name; 0# is an unboxed int literal
2021-06-08 10:43:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> e
2021-06-08 10:43:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> but putting a # in names is usually meant to indicate that the thing is an unboxed type
2021-06-08 10:43:46 +0200 <guest61> dupBool = dup @Bool what's @here?
2021-06-08 10:44:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> the % is a linear type indication, that's very recent and new
2021-06-08 10:44:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> the @ is a type application
2021-06-08 10:44:36 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:45:02 +0200 <guest61> is there an actuall type called Type?
2021-06-08 10:45:09 +0200 <guest61> @hoogle Type
2021-06-08 10:45:10 +0200 <lambdabot> Data.Kind type Type = Type
2021-06-08 10:45:10 +0200 <lambdabot> module GHC.Exception.Type
2021-06-08 10:45:10 +0200 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts data TYPE (a :: RuntimeRep)
2021-06-08 10:45:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> there is a _kind_ called Type
2021-06-08 10:45:44 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-06-08 10:45:58 +0200 <guest61> type Code () = '['[]] what's the ' meaning?
2021-06-08 10:46:07 +0200 <guest61> it's valid?
2021-06-08 10:46:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> TYPE is something completely different than Type and has to do with runtime representations of data, e.g. with unboxed types; I'm not sure there
2021-06-08 10:46:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> the ' is to disambiguate between term-level names and names resulting from lifting with DataKinds
2021-06-08 10:47:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> [], [1], [1,2] are term-level lists
2021-06-08 10:47:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> [] on the type level is a "type function" with kind Type -> Type
2021-06-08 10:48:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> [a] on the type level is a type, of lists of a's
2021-06-08 10:48:32 +0200 <boxscape> % :i Data.Kind.Type
2021-06-08 10:48:32 +0200 <yahb> boxscape: type Data.Kind.Type :: *; type Data.Kind.Type = TYPE 'LiftedRep; -- Defined in `GHC.Types'
2021-06-08 10:48:37 +0200 <boxscape> that's the relationship
2021-06-08 10:48:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> '[], '[1], '[1,2] are types of kind [Int] obtained by lifting using DataKinds
2021-06-08 10:48:46 +0200 <guest61> Maybe (a :~: b) what's this :~: mean?
2021-06-08 10:49:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :i (Data.Type.Equality.:~:)
2021-06-08 10:49:13 +0200 <yahb> tomsmeding: type role (:~:) nominal nominal; type (:~:) :: forall {k}. k -> k -> *; data (:~:) a b where; Refl :: forall {k} (a :: k). (:~:) a a; -- Defined in `Data.Type.Equality'; infix 4 :~:; instance forall k (a :: k) (b :: k). Eq (a :~: b) -- Defined in `Data.Type.Equality'; instance forall k (a :: k) (b :: k). Ord (a :~: b) -- Defined in `Data.Type.Equality'; instance forall k (a :: k) (b :: k). (a ~ b) =>
2021-06-08 10:49:16 +0200 <guest61> so many symbols I never seen
2021-06-08 10:49:22 +0200 <boxscape> guest61 it's a proof that a and b are equal types
2021-06-08 10:49:28 +0200 <guest61> data type is so confused
2021-06-08 10:49:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> @src :~:
2021-06-08 10:49:29 +0200 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you typing with your feet?
2021-06-08 10:49:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> data a :~: b where Refl :: a :~: a
2021-06-08 10:50:13 +0200yd502(~yd502@180.168.212.6) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:50:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> guest61: I do wonder: if you're not very familiar with all the ghc extensions to haskell yet, why are you looking at unboxed types, linear types, and DataKinds?
2021-06-08 10:51:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> I recommend getting more familiar with the language before venturing into the weeds :p
2021-06-08 10:51:25 +0200 <guest61> tomsmeding I just a follow a haskell guy
2021-06-08 10:51:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> assuming, of course, that it confuses and annoys you
2021-06-08 10:52:14 +0200yd502(~yd502@180.168.212.6)
2021-06-08 10:52:20 +0200 <guest61> newtype a -&> b = Hyp {invoke :: (b -&> a) } what a symbol...
2021-06-08 10:52:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> you're not talking about edward kmett, are you?
2021-06-08 10:52:51 +0200 <guest61> I hear there's some liquid types
2021-06-08 10:53:06 +0200 <boxscape> we're still working on gaseous types, though
2021-06-08 10:53:12 +0200 <guest61> tomsmeding no, it's Haskell_jack
2021-06-08 10:53:16 +0200xerox(~edi@user/edi) (Quit: leaving)
2021-06-08 10:53:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> liquid types is an external GHC plugin that adds some kind of strong verification of Haskell code using an SMT solver
2021-06-08 10:53:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> well, Liquid Haskell it's called
2021-06-08 10:53:54 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:53:54 +0200 <guest61> refinement type
2021-06-08 10:54:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> boxscape: do we have solid types down, then? :p
2021-06-08 10:54:25 +0200 <boxscape> I'd say we have a solid grasp
2021-06-08 10:54:42 +0200anon(~anon@176.59.52.187) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:54:57 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
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2021-06-08 10:55:57 +0200BosonCollider(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com)
2021-06-08 10:56:21 +0200kiweun(~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a61:4800::2dd8)
2021-06-08 10:57:04 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a60:b700::5d55) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 10:57:48 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a310:b600:b098:bf18:df4d:4c41)
2021-06-08 10:59:24 +0200wonko(~wjc@62.115.229.50)
2021-06-08 11:01:37 +0200 <guest61> :t maybe
2021-06-08 11:01:38 +0200 <lambdabot> b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
2021-06-08 11:02:20 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:c8e0:dbe:1fae:ffe1) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-06-08 11:02:40 +0200 <guest61> if b ~ IO a, then this maybe could change Maybe a to IO a, there's a name call this transform, what's its name? I forget it
2021-06-08 11:02:41 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-08 11:03:01 +0200 <dminuoso> guest61: Id call it `note`
2021-06-08 11:03:21 +0200 <guest61> @hoogle note
2021-06-08 11:03:22 +0200 <lambdabot> Criterion.IO.Printf note :: CritHPrintfType r => String -> r
2021-06-08 11:03:22 +0200 <lambdabot> Control.Error.Util note :: a -> Maybe b -> Either a b
2021-06-08 11:03:22 +0200 <lambdabot> Protolude note :: MonadError e m => e -> Maybe a -> m a
2021-06-08 11:04:16 +0200 <boxscape> what would such a function do?
2021-06-08 11:04:42 +0200 <guest61> dminuoso maybe change the context, that's new to me
2021-06-08 11:05:25 +0200 <guest61> I could do Maybe a to IO (Maybe a), but it do IO a, amazing
2021-06-08 11:05:31 +0200magthe(~magthe@c83-252-48-230.bredband.tele2.se)
2021-06-08 11:06:18 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-06-08 11:06:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> guest61: to do that using 'maybe' you have to give a default value in case the input is Nothing
2021-06-08 11:06:40 +0200 <guest61> like put a bunch Maybe a into a [], then use fromJust to get [a], but funciton like this could turn Maybe a -> [a], amazing!
2021-06-08 11:06:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> and of course if you have such a default value, it's not very surprising anymore
2021-06-08 11:06:52 +0200 <dminuoso> guest61: If you follow my approach, you wont even need it.
2021-06-08 11:07:15 +0200 <guest61> dminuoso which approach?
2021-06-08 11:07:21 +0200 <boxscape> :t catMaybes
2021-06-08 11:07:22 +0200 <lambdabot> [Maybe a] -> [a]
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2021-06-08 11:17:21 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2021-06-08 11:17:56 +0200pera(~pera@user/pera)
2021-06-08 11:19:19 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-06-08 11:20:15 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-08 11:21:52 +0200azeem(~azeem@176.201.35.122)
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2021-06-08 11:25:37 +0200mc47(~yecinem@89.246.239.190)
2021-06-08 11:26:06 +0200thiross(~thiross@39.170.37.82) ()
2021-06-08 11:28:04 +0200Evie-(~evie@user/evie-)
2021-06-08 11:31:26 +0200Torro(Torro@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/torro)
2021-06-08 11:31:33 +0200unyu(~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-06-08 11:31:52 +0200 <dminuoso> guest61: Check my gist earlier
2021-06-08 11:33:35 +0200Wally(~Wally@dragonbox/forum-staff/wally) (https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-06-08 11:34:11 +0200Guest48(~Guest48@ec2-52-76-156-114.ap-southeast-1.compute.amazonaws.com) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-06-08 11:34:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 11:34:59 +0200Toast52(~Toast52@151.192.167.120)
2021-06-08 11:35:10 +0200jorjor(~jorgemene@85.251.190.6.dyn.user.ono.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-06-08 11:38:43 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-06-08 11:39:15 +0200 <Toast52> hello, does anyone know about linking windows apis?
2021-06-08 11:39:40 +0200 <Toast52> do you need the windows 10 sdk for the header files? or can you just write your own header files
2021-06-08 11:40:07 +0200xerox(~edi@user/edi)
2021-06-08 11:40:31 +0200 <Toast52> and is linking simply adding the extra-lib-dirs flag to your cabal config file
2021-06-08 11:40:49 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 11:40:59 +0200 <Toast52> to the winapi dll directory
2021-06-08 11:48:29 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 11:48:30 +0200bontaq(~user@ool-18e47f8d.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-06-08 11:49:17 +0200Toast52_(~Toast52@151.192.167.120)
2021-06-08 11:50:07 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 11:51:54 +0200Toast52(~Toast52@151.192.167.120) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 11:53:13 +0200 <maerwald> Toast52_: no idea, but did you check https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Win32-2.12.0.0/Win32.cabal
2021-06-08 11:53:32 +0200 <maerwald> they just add some stuff to extra-libraries... I'm not sure if that's from msys2 or whatnot
2021-06-08 11:56:18 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 11:56:39 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5287:b700:b1a7:c5b9:6672:3b03) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 11:56:56 +0200xkuru(~xkuru@user/xkuru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-08 11:57:12 +0200 <Toast52_> I took a peek at the openglraw package to see how they did it
2021-06-08 11:57:14 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@port-92-193-150-196.dynamic.as20676.net)
2021-06-08 11:58:11 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 11:59:25 +0200 <Toast52_> ok it looks like extra-libraries is the correct place to put it
2021-06-08 11:59:38 +0200fendor_fendor
2021-06-08 11:59:48 +0200 <fendor> is Hackage UI down? :O
2021-06-08 12:00:10 +0200 <Toast52_> does GHC know to search %PATH% for dlls?
2021-06-08 12:01:18 +0200 <maerwald> Toast52_: I think PATH affects where dlls are searched on windows, yes
2021-06-08 12:01:33 +0200 <maerwald> which is one of the reasons msys2 installations don't set path
2021-06-08 12:01:38 +0200 <maerwald> otherwise hell breaks loose
2021-06-08 12:01:41 +0200Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-06-08 12:02:07 +0200 <Torro> fendor: hackage.haskell.org?
2021-06-08 12:02:08 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:9880:303c:ca5b:76ff:fe29:f233)
2021-06-08 12:02:19 +0200 <fendor> Torro, yeah
2021-06-08 12:02:28 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-06-08 12:03:05 +0200 <Torro> fendor: fastly is having issues; see python.org and reddit.com, same issue
2021-06-08 12:03:35 +0200 <fendor> ok, thanks!
2021-06-08 12:04:41 +0200 <Torro> np
2021-06-08 12:04:46 +0200 <Toast52_> damn
2021-06-08 12:05:31 +0200chomwitt(~Pitsikoko@2a02:587:dc02:b00:98b0:cd42:bd6f:8295) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 12:08:26 +0200Cajun(~Cajun@ip98-163-211-112.no.no.cox.net) (Quit: Client closed)
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2021-06-08 12:09:30 +0200 <Torro> liskin: /whois liskin
2021-06-08 12:09:35 +0200 <Torro> oops, sorry
2021-06-08 12:11:14 +0200 <Torro> saw your msg in #xmonad, wanted to check if you're in #haskell as well. Apologies
2021-06-08 12:11:44 +0200anon(~anon@176.59.52.187)
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2021-06-08 12:24:17 +0200nilof(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com)
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2021-06-08 12:32:18 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2021-06-08 12:32:36 +0200azeem(~azeem@176.201.35.122)
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2021-06-08 12:49:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 12:49:39 +0200fabfianda(~fabfianda@net-93-148-121-206.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-06-08 12:49:54 +0200amirouche(~amirouche@static.62.204.203.116.clients.your-server.de)
2021-06-08 12:50:24 +0200azeem(~azeem@176.201.35.122)
2021-06-08 12:50:26 +0200 <amirouche> hello, I am trying to go through this article: https://rubenpieters.github.io/programming/haskell/2019/07/09/animation-dsl-1.html
2021-06-08 12:50:33 +0200fabfianda(~fabfianda@mob-5-90-240-86.net.vodafone.it)
2021-06-08 12:50:47 +0200 <amirouche> I am wondering if they are similar approaches to drive a whole web page?
2021-06-08 12:50:55 +0200 <amirouche> Is that what people call FRP?
2021-06-08 12:51:51 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 12:52:03 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-08 12:52:35 +0200 <amirouche> related to that there is also http://conal.net/papers/functional-images/fop-conal.pdf
2021-06-08 12:52:58 +0200agumonke`(~user@88.160.31.174)
2021-06-08 12:53:09 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-06-08 12:54:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 12:54:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 12:55:36 +0200 <liskin> Torro: I am here, but it's too high-traffic for me to read it, so if something needs my attention, a highlight is necessary
2021-06-08 12:57:12 +0200 <amirouche> maybe easier question is: how to create a frontend app with haskell?
2021-06-08 12:59:37 +0200amk(~amk@176.61.106.150) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 13:00:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 13:00:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 13:00:29 +0200 <Toast52_> are you asking about techniques? or tools
2021-06-08 13:00:51 +0200amk(~amk@176.61.106.150)
2021-06-08 13:02:11 +0200 <sshine> amirouche, here is one tutorial using Asterius: https://www.tweag.io/blog/2019-12-19-asterius-diagrams/
2021-06-08 13:03:14 +0200Toast52_(~Toast52@151.192.167.120) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-06-08 13:05:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 13:05:46 +0200 <amirouche> re techniques or tools: both.
2021-06-08 13:05:52 +0200 <amirouche> looking at asterius
2021-06-08 13:05:56 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd)
2021-06-08 13:06:05 +0200 <sshine> amirouche, yes, FRP is thought of being a good paradigm for front-end. this is what PureScript's Halogen framework uses...
2021-06-08 13:06:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 13:06:37 +0200 <sshine> amirouche, reactive program is currently very popular in front-end (React, Vue, etc.) so FRP is the cherry on top.
2021-06-08 13:08:22 +0200 <sshine> amirouche, but this is more of a front-end framework question. if you're asking "how to do haskell in the front-end", that's still a bit researchy, I think... GHCJS, Asterius, ...
2021-06-08 13:09:38 +0200 <amirouche> I know about React. What I am looking for a DSL to describe an interactive program in a non-imperative way.
2021-06-08 13:10:29 +0200 <amirouche> In particular, how to create animations in a declarative way, and how to handle events such as click, and also xhr kind of stuff.
2021-06-08 13:10:36 +0200benin03(~benin@183.82.206.233)
2021-06-08 13:11:17 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 13:11:32 +0200 <amirouche> wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_reactive_programming) mention The Reactive and Etage libraries.
2021-06-08 13:11:47 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 13:12:55 +0200Brumaire(~quassel@81-64-14-121.rev.numericable.fr)
2021-06-08 13:13:17 +0200 <amirouche> that https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reactive
2021-06-08 13:13:40 +0200 <amirouche> by the original author of C. Elliot (above fop-conal.pdf)
2021-06-08 13:14:17 +0200 <sshine> you can find some interesting FRP libraries in Haskell, but they don't necessarily bridge to a front-end web library.
2021-06-08 13:14:43 +0200 <amirouche> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Etage
2021-06-08 13:15:07 +0200 <sshine> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/ajxq3a/how_can_i_best_learn_functional_reactive/
2021-06-08 13:15:20 +0200 <amirouche> sshine: no worries, I will bridge the gap, I am working with Scheme / Kernel (!) anyway, I am looking for ideas more than readily useable code.
2021-06-08 13:15:30 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 13:17:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 13:17:08 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28)
2021-06-08 13:17:31 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 13:18:48 +0200mc47(~yecinem@89.246.239.190) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-06-08 13:18:54 +0200 <amirouche> eventually, what I have in mind is given the description of a frontend app compile to html with js and html without js (and then see how this can work with non browser targets)
2021-06-08 13:19:06 +0200mc47(~yecinem@89.246.239.190)
2021-06-08 13:20:00 +0200mc47(~yecinem@89.246.239.190) (Client Quit)
2021-06-08 13:20:51 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2021-06-08 13:21:36 +0200wallymathieu(~wallymath@81-234-151-21-no94.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-08 13:23:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-08 13:23:32 +0200 <amirouche> haskell websites are very stylish (compared to Scheme)
2021-06-08 13:24:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 13:24:42 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 13:25:30 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 13:26:44 +0200mc47(~mc47@89.246.239.190)
2021-06-08 13:29:30 +0200 <tdammers> sshine: Halogen isn't actually FRP. It's functional, it's reactive, but it's not FRP in the true sense - most importantly, it does not have Behaviors (continuous or quasi-continuous time signals), only Events (discrete signals)
2021-06-08 13:29:37 +0200buggy(~buggy@49.36.188.169)
2021-06-08 13:29:53 +0200 <tdammers> which is fine, you don't actually need continuous time in a web GUI most of the time
2021-06-08 13:30:04 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 13:30:42 +0200buggy(~buggy@49.36.188.169) (Client Quit)
2021-06-08 13:32:11 +0200 <sshine> tdammers, that reminds me of https://elm-lang.org/news/farewell-to-frp -- and https://www.fatalerrors.org/a/using-mvvm-design-pattern-in-django.html
2021-06-08 13:33:58 +0200buggy(~buggy@49.36.188.169)
2021-06-08 13:34:35 +0200buggy(~buggy@49.36.188.169) (Changing host)
2021-06-08 13:34:35 +0200buggy(~buggy@user/smorgasbord)
2021-06-08 13:34:38 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47)
2021-06-08 13:35:24 +0200 <maerwald> The only interesting thing about FRP for me is that it allows wildly different codebase structure compared to e.g. callback-driven architecture. But that's not enough to get me sold on the idea, especially since there are many competing approaches, each of them having hard problems
2021-06-08 13:36:16 +0200 <tdammers> sshine: ugh, that terrible thing
2021-06-08 13:36:17 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2021-06-08 13:36:56 +0200 <dminuoso> I like how the elm webpage doesn't display anything when JS is disabled.,
2021-06-08 13:37:11 +0200 <tdammers> that's par for the course for a frontend framework
2021-06-08 13:37:14 +0200 <dminuoso> To me this communicates lack of web competence.. :->
2021-06-08 13:37:29 +0200 <tdammers> but that article? urgh. Elm has never been FRP, not before the Elm Architecture, nor after
2021-06-08 13:37:35 +0200buggy(~buggy@user/smorgasbord) (Client Quit)
2021-06-08 13:37:45 +0200 <tdammers> but Evan didn't understand FRP when he built Elm, and called it that even though it wasn't
2021-06-08 13:38:14 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:ea21:4b5e:38c6:5b35)
2021-06-08 13:38:21 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: the haskell foundation web page is broken without js too
2021-06-08 13:38:35 +0200 <maerwald> only very few websites these days can deliver that
2021-06-08 13:38:53 +0200 <tdammers> mine can
2021-06-08 13:38:58 +0200 <tdammers> as a matter of principle
2021-06-08 13:39:10 +0200MidAutumnMoon(~MidAutumn@user/midautumnmoon) (Quit: Leaving for a break - theLounge)
2021-06-08 13:39:19 +0200 <maerwald> github can to a degree, which is astonishing
2021-06-08 13:39:25 +0200 <dminuoso> I dont expect the entire webpage to work, but at least some rudimentary things..
2021-06-08 13:39:39 +0200 <dminuoso> Even if it displays some meaningful error message, that's acceptable
2021-06-08 13:39:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: https://paste.tomsmeding.com works without js, though without multi-file
2021-06-08 13:39:46 +0200MidAutumnMoon(~MidAutumn@user/midautumnmoon)
2021-06-08 13:40:07 +0200tomsmedingfeels cool
2021-06-08 13:40:21 +0200 <boxscape> funny, back in the day using javascript was the cool thing
2021-06-08 13:40:33 +0200 <maerwald> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/ sigh... why does it now work without js
2021-06-08 13:40:38 +0200 <maerwald> my html skills are terrible
2021-06-08 13:41:39 +0200 <boxscape> oh haskellfoundation.org is the wong website, eh
2021-06-08 13:41:44 +0200 <boxscape> s/wong/wrong
2021-06-08 13:41:50 +0200 <maerwald> There is a <noscript> section, but it doesn't shot up, lol
2021-06-08 13:42:00 +0200 <maerwald> gg
2021-06-08 13:46:20 +0200FreeVariable(~Thunderbi@wifi-unifr-154-135.unifr.ch)
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2021-06-08 13:55:09 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker)
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2021-06-08 14:00:02 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2021-06-08 14:03:25 +0200pera(~pera@204.red-79-159-199.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2021-06-08 14:03:49 +0200peraGuest5704
2021-06-08 14:05:43 +0200chomwitt(~Pitsikoko@2a02:587:dc02:b00:90fc:3f0d:1f5e:369a)
2021-06-08 14:08:35 +0200 <sshine> oh man, my homepage used to work fine without javascript. what happened to my priorities.
2021-06-08 14:08:42 +0200fabfianda(~fabfianda@mob-5-90-240-86.net.vodafone.it) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 14:08:59 +0200fabfianda(~fabfianda@net-93-148-121-206.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
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2021-06-08 14:12:59 +0200 <maerwald> extra-path-prog/extra-include-dirs/extra-lib-dirs in cabal.config invalidates the entire store???
2021-06-08 14:14:16 +0200Guest8456(~Guest84@2600:1700:6074:e10:42:e803:ddf2:95e0)
2021-06-08 14:18:23 +0200Guest8456(~Guest84@2600:1700:6074:e10:42:e803:ddf2:95e0) ()
2021-06-08 14:18:45 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0)
2021-06-08 14:19:32 +0200 <merijn> Sounds likely
2021-06-08 14:20:37 +0200maerwaldsobs
2021-06-08 14:20:59 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 14:21:38 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@31.217.27.129)
2021-06-08 14:22:30 +0200 <mastarija> What is the current status of cross compilation? In particular, ARM / Android.
2021-06-08 14:22:42 +0200 <trueboxguy> the Haskell foundation page is https://haskell.foundation for those interested
2021-06-08 14:22:47 +0200 <mastarija> I've found some oldish posts form zw3rk, but nothing recent
2021-06-08 14:23:32 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 14:24:36 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 14:24:48 +0200 <sshine> mastarija, was it older or newer than this? https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20200515-ghc-on-arm.html
2021-06-08 14:25:09 +0200 <mastarija> Older, I think 2019
2021-06-08 14:25:20 +0200Bartosz(~textual@24.35.90.211)
2021-06-08 14:25:35 +0200 <maerwald> mastarija: that's basically Moritz, who's the primary guy working on ARM support
2021-06-08 14:26:23 +0200 <maerwald> mastarija: there's also a Arming Cardano telegram group where people try to (cross-)compile cardano for ARM
2021-06-08 14:26:44 +0200 <mastarija> I've been wanting to write a game for android, I know keera studios had some working examples, but they are closed source.
2021-06-08 14:27:22 +0200 <jonathanx> I'm considering moving from stack to nix + cabal in order to get binary caches & mixins (for alternate preludes). Anything I need to know about using stack vs cabal with nix? Most info I can find is 3-5 years old.
2021-06-08 14:28:14 +0200killsushi(~killsushi@user/killsushi) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-06-08 14:28:29 +0200 <jonathanx> I've read that I'll need to set up --file-watch manually, and that the errors might be less than helpful, but other than that? Is there a best practice for what tooling to use with nix?
2021-06-08 14:28:58 +0200hueso(~root@152.170.216.40) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-06-08 14:30:18 +0200wonko(~wjc@62.115.229.50) (Quit: See You Space Cowboy..)
2021-06-08 14:30:19 +0200hueso(~root@152.170.216.40)
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2021-06-08 14:31:04 +0200NinjaTrappeur(~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-06-08 14:31:45 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-94-34-34-125.clienti.tiscali.it)
2021-06-08 14:32:03 +0200 <angerman> mastarija: cross compilation is still a bit of an issue outside of nix. It’s pretty annoying. But possible.
2021-06-08 14:32:20 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28)
2021-06-08 14:32:36 +0200 <angerman> mastarija: instructions on my blog should still apply. The codegen should be substantially improved since then though.
2021-06-08 14:32:38 +0200 <mastarija> angerman, I've been hearing that nix helps with cross compilation, but I don't really understand how?
2021-06-08 14:33:05 +0200 <mastarija> angerman, can I get a link? :D
2021-06-08 14:33:07 +0200 <angerman> mastarija: nix abstracts away all the cross toolchain setup and management.
2021-06-08 14:33:17 +0200 <maerwald> you can do the same with, say, exherbo, if you wanted
2021-06-08 14:33:40 +0200 <angerman> maerwald: yes. Cabal-install is just so god awful 3-)
2021-06-08 14:33:41 +0200 <mastarija> angerman, so it just sets up a toolchain the right way?
2021-06-08 14:34:00 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2021-06-08 14:34:23 +0200 <angerman> mastarija: yes and takes care of building and supplying Setup.hs (think low level cabal install) with the appropriate flags.
2021-06-08 14:35:01 +0200 <angerman> maerwald: don’t get me wrong I don’t want nix. But the way forward is to make ghc Multi target and then add logic to cabal-install
2021-06-08 14:35:35 +0200 <maerwald> let's see where cabal-install is headed
2021-06-08 14:35:38 +0200 <angerman> We could start teaching cabal-install about build and target GHCs as separate executables now? But omg it’s all so awful.
2021-06-08 14:35:52 +0200 <mastarija> I started playing with nixos, but from what I understand, someone still has to set up all the toolchain stuff. By saying "nix takes car" we are really saying "it makes it easyer for me to set things up and keep them that way"?
2021-06-08 14:36:09 +0200 <angerman> The most pressing issue right now is to make cross compilers plugin aware.
2021-06-08 14:37:08 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-06-08 14:38:15 +0200 <maerwald> "I started playing with nixos"... yeah, that's what most ppl do and then give up at some point :p
2021-06-08 14:38:36 +0200 <mastarija> maerwald, I started "for the second time" ;)
2021-06-08 14:39:06 +0200 <maerwald> those who don't give up will become prophets
2021-06-08 14:39:18 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-06-08 14:39:23 +0200 <mastarija> I kind of want to finish my "crossplatform" screenshot library. Right now it's finished for Windows, but I want to add X11 and Wayland support
2021-06-08 14:39:35 +0200 <mastarija> So a good reason to get back into linux and NixOS
2021-06-08 14:39:38 +0200 <mastarija> :D
2021-06-08 14:40:01 +0200 <maerwald> so I can do screenshots from haskell code?
2021-06-08 14:40:06 +0200 <mastarija> Yes
2021-06-08 14:40:09 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-08 14:40:15 +0200 <mastarija> Without downloading a whole hackage in the process
2021-06-08 14:40:15 +0200 <maerwald> without the user knowing?
2021-06-08 14:40:21 +0200 <maerwald> and then upload them to my server?
2021-06-08 14:40:23 +0200 <maerwald> Nice
2021-06-08 14:40:33 +0200 <mastarija> That part's up to you :D
2021-06-08 14:41:02 +0200 <maerwald> haskell spyware :p
2021-06-08 14:41:25 +0200 <mastarija> Yes. It started as an idea for monitoring tool
2021-06-08 14:41:52 +0200 <mastarija> I have a few pain in the ass clients, that unfortunatelly pay too well, and they want to watch me code :D
2021-06-08 14:42:33 +0200 <maerwald> creeps...
2021-06-08 14:43:10 +0200 <mastarija> Fuck it, I'm an e-whore, gimme that cahs :D
2021-06-08 14:44:03 +0200involans(~alex@cpc92718-cmbg20-2-0-cust157.5-4.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2021-06-08 15:01:14 +0200alx741(~alx741@181.196.69.96)
2021-06-08 15:01:31 +0200mattil(~mattil@airio.portalify.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-08 15:01:35 +0200 <kuribas> how do I turn some warning in an error?
2021-06-08 15:02:39 +0200pe200012_(~pe200012@119.145.72.136) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 15:03:00 +0200Bartosz(~textual@24.35.90.211) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-08 15:03:09 +0200pe200012_(~pe200012@119.145.72.136)
2021-06-08 15:03:36 +0200 <kuribas> nvm, found it :)
2021-06-08 15:03:41 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-06-08 15:03:58 +0200 <kuribas> -Werror=missing-fields
2021-06-08 15:04:13 +0200 <kuribas> IMO that should have been an error by default...
2021-06-08 15:04:15 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2021-06-08 15:06:02 +0200statusbot(~statusbot@ec2-34-198-122-184.compute-1.amazonaws.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-08 15:06:12 +0200statusbot(~statusbot@ec2-34-198-122-184.compute-1.amazonaws.com)
2021-06-08 15:06:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> is that the warning for missing entries when constructing a record? I recently found out that _is_ an error for strict fields
2021-06-08 15:06:31 +0200 <kuribas> yes
2021-06-08 15:06:36 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 15:06:40 +0200 <kuribas> ah right, so I have to make my fields strict :)
2021-06-08 15:07:15 +0200jao(~mail@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-06-08 15:08:04 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 15:14:08 +0200liskin(~liskin@ackle.nomi.cz) (Changing host)
2021-06-08 15:14:08 +0200liskin(~liskin@xmonad/liskin)
2021-06-08 15:14:22 +0200 <amirouche> re FRP, that is the problem I set myself to tackle (without a particular timeframe)
2021-06-08 15:14:22 +0200mc47(~mc47@89.246.239.190) (Changing host)
2021-06-08 15:14:22 +0200mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2021-06-08 15:16:38 +0200 <amirouche> Really, what I want is describe side-effects the GUI declaratively so that the compiler does have to guess hard what functions try to do.
2021-06-08 15:18:45 +0200laguneucl(~Pitsikoko@2a02:587:dc02:b00:98b0:cd42:bd6f:8295)
2021-06-08 15:19:18 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2021-06-08 15:22:09 +0200mattil(~mattil@airio.portalify.com)
2021-06-08 15:22:19 +0200hendursa1(~weechat@user/hendursaga) (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-06-08 15:22:21 +0200poljar1(~poljar@93-143-191-129.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
2021-06-08 15:22:43 +0200hendursaga(~weechat@user/hendursaga)
2021-06-08 15:23:00 +0200 <amirouche> I guess I need to start building a DSL that make sense, then figure how to wire everything.
2021-06-08 15:23:04 +0200chomwitt(~Pitsikoko@2a02:587:dc02:b00:90fc:3f0d:1f5e:369a) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 15:23:16 +0200 <amirouche> (that is a great teaching from the various haskell doc I read)
2021-06-08 15:24:32 +0200poljar(~poljar@78-2-43-255.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-08 15:24:36 +0200 <kuribas> I wouldn't worry about the compiler until you actually have a performance problem
2021-06-08 15:25:40 +0200poljar(~poljar@93-139-12-109.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
2021-06-08 15:25:55 +0200 <amirouche> Another source of inspiration might be immediate mode gui such: dear imgui (https://github.com/ocornut/imgui) but it does not support animations
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2021-06-08 16:16:03 +0200 <guest61> I saw there's only ghc arm version on debian 9, why not latest?
2021-06-08 16:16:15 +0200 <guest61> llvm9
2021-06-08 16:16:17 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
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2021-06-08 16:29:43 +0200 <merijn> guest61: Why not the latest llvm you mean?
2021-06-08 16:32:11 +0200a6a45081-2b83(~aditya@223.178.225.24)
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2021-06-08 16:46:00 +0200 <guest61> least debian I mean
2021-06-08 16:46:07 +0200 <guest61> latest
2021-06-08 16:46:33 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd)
2021-06-08 16:46:38 +0200 <guest61> I saw the wiki said llvm version is specific
2021-06-08 16:47:03 +0200jumper149(~jumper149@80.240.31.34)
2021-06-08 16:47:27 +0200 <merijn> That sounds more like a debian question, though?
2021-06-08 16:47:37 +0200 <merijn> They're the people making packages
2021-06-08 16:48:35 +0200 <guest61> haha
2021-06-08 16:48:44 +0200tubogram(~tubogram@user/tubogram) (*.net *.split)
2021-06-08 16:48:46 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-94-34-34-125.clienti.tiscali.it) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 16:48:53 +0200tubogram(~tubogram@user/tubogram)
2021-06-08 16:48:58 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-94-34-34-125.clienti.tiscali.it)
2021-06-08 16:49:15 +0200 <merijn> There's a Debian 10 bindist on the GHC website, so clearly it runs
2021-06-08 16:49:21 +0200 <guest61> like ghc on archlinux, who should be blamed
2021-06-08 16:49:46 +0200 <merijn> ah, wait, the GHC bindist is x86_64. Not sure if there are ARM bindists atm?
2021-06-08 16:50:53 +0200 <guest61> archlinux always use dynamic libraries, and ghc use static libraries, so use ghc on archlinux very uncomfortable
2021-06-08 16:51:02 +0200 <merijn> Yeah
2021-06-08 16:51:24 +0200 <merijn> I feel there should be arm bindists, but I have no idea where.
2021-06-08 16:51:25 +0200 <guest61> so who should be blamed?
2021-06-08 16:51:40 +0200 <merijn> angerman: Do you know if/where arm bindists can be found?
2021-06-08 16:52:06 +0200 <guest61> https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20200515-ghc-on-arm.html
2021-06-08 16:52:44 +0200a6a45081-2b83(~aditya@223.178.225.24) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2021-06-08 16:54:17 +0200MatrixTravelerbo(~voyagert2@2001:470:69fc:105::22)
2021-06-08 16:54:17 +0200peddie(~peddie@2001:470:69fc:105::25d)
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2021-06-08 16:54:17 +0200fabfianda[m](~fabfianda@2001:470:69fc:105::6db)
2021-06-08 16:54:17 +0200ServerStatsDisco(~serversta@2001:470:69fc:105::1a)
2021-06-08 16:54:17 +0200the-coot[m](~the-cootm@2001:470:69fc:105::95f)
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2021-06-08 16:54:29 +0200Artem[m](~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b)
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2021-06-08 16:54:29 +0200zwro[m](~zwromatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1d4)
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2021-06-08 16:54:31 +0200jaror[m](~jaror@2001:470:69fc:105::265)
2021-06-08 16:54:31 +0200cdsmith(~cdsmithma@2001:470:69fc:105::284)
2021-06-08 16:54:31 +0200 <maerwald> we have arm bindists
2021-06-08 16:55:22 +0200 <maerwald> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.5/ghc-8.10.5-armv7-deb10-linux.tar.xz
2021-06-08 16:55:27 +0200 <guest61> also https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20210309-apple-m1-story.html
2021-06-08 16:55:33 +0200 <maerwald> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.5/ghc-8.10.5-aarch64-apple-darwin.tar.xz
2021-06-08 16:56:49 +0200psydroid(~psydroidm@2001:470:69fc:105::165) (Changing host)
2021-06-08 16:56:49 +0200psydroid(~psydroidm@user/psydroid)
2021-06-08 16:56:52 +0200 <guest61> aha
2021-06-08 16:57:14 +0200 <guest61> it's binary or source code?
2021-06-08 16:57:18 +0200 <maerwald> bindist
2021-06-08 16:57:26 +0200 <maerwald> ghcup also works on ARM
2021-06-08 16:57:33 +0200 <guest61> what does that mean?
2021-06-08 16:57:46 +0200 <maerwald> it's a tarball with binaries yes
2021-06-08 16:58:52 +0200 <c_wraith> literally an abbreviation of "binary distribution"
2021-06-08 16:58:57 +0200 <guest61> and there a cable arm ?
2021-06-08 16:59:24 +0200 <maerwald> yes
2021-06-08 16:59:42 +0200 <guest61> in this tarball? or other link?
2021-06-08 16:59:55 +0200 <maerwald> what arm distro are you on?
2021-06-08 17:00:26 +0200 <guest61> debian 10 rootfs version
2021-06-08 17:00:28 +0200 <maerwald> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/
2021-06-08 17:03:38 +0200allbery_b(~geekosaur@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2021-06-08 17:03:47 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by allbery_b)))
2021-06-08 17:03:57 +0200allbery_bgeekosaur
2021-06-08 17:04:38 +0200 <guest61> wait a sec, https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20200515-ghc-on-arm.html
2021-06-08 17:05:34 +0200 <guest61> does this meed to run ‘configure ...’?
2021-06-08 17:05:58 +0200 <geekosaur> so you can specify where to install it, and it can adapt to the system, yes
2021-06-08 17:06:18 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 17:06:56 +0200 <guest61> First, we need to install LLVM 9 (which GHC uses for code generation on ARM):
2021-06-08 17:07:08 +0200 <guest61> so it needs llvm?
2021-06-08 17:07:27 +0200neceve(~quassel@2a02:c7f:607e:d600:a95a:ecd2:e57a:3130) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:07:40 +0200 <yushyin> that's what is says
2021-06-08 17:07:43 +0200 <yushyin> it
2021-06-08 17:08:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:09:12 +0200jumper149(~jumper149@80.240.31.34) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-06-08 17:09:23 +0200 <guest61> ok
2021-06-08 17:10:49 +0200 <yushyin> but why not just try ghcup and see if it works for you?
2021-06-08 17:11:20 +0200 <guest61> what is ghcup?
2021-06-08 17:11:30 +0200 <guest61> I only know stack and cable
2021-06-08 17:11:38 +0200 <maerwald> guest61: see the link above
2021-06-08 17:11:47 +0200 <guest61> that lsp stuff I don't know
2021-06-08 17:11:52 +0200 <maerwald> lsp?
2021-06-08 17:12:39 +0200yoctocell(~user@h87-96-130-155.cust.a3fiber.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-08 17:12:47 +0200 <guest61> wait a sec, when this ghcup came?
2021-06-08 17:12:55 +0200 <maerwald> I don't know
2021-06-08 17:13:05 +0200 <guest61> language server protocol
2021-06-08 17:13:26 +0200 <maerwald> did you read what's in the web page?
2021-06-08 17:13:27 +0200 <guest61> for code autocomplete indent blabla
2021-06-08 17:13:33 +0200 <guest61> yes
2021-06-08 17:13:45 +0200 <maerwald> ok, so there's nothing about autocomplete, lsp or indent
2021-06-08 17:13:49 +0200 <guest61> check if it's available
2021-06-08 17:14:30 +0200 <guest61> But i remember there's a lsp stuff call this name very likely But i forget
2021-06-08 17:15:06 +0200Torro(Torro@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/torro) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 17:17:15 +0200 <guest61> haskell-hie ghcide
2021-06-08 17:17:43 +0200Torro(Torro@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/torro)
2021-06-08 17:17:58 +0200 <maerwald> those are different names
2021-06-08 17:18:00 +0200 <geekosaur> those are both out of date, hls is the current one
2021-06-08 17:19:41 +0200 <guest61> that hoogle guy, mitch? he is doing one?
2021-06-08 17:21:15 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0)
2021-06-08 17:22:12 +0200 <guest61> ghcid
2021-06-08 17:22:18 +0200Guest68(~textual@2603-8000-d201-7e1d-c40c-15fa-fd7b-ff64.res6.spectrum.com)
2021-06-08 17:23:19 +0200 <guest61> https://github.com/ndmitchell/ghcid
2021-06-08 17:25:29 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:25:30 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-89-117.ptld.qwest.net)
2021-06-08 17:26:07 +0200safinaskar(~user@109.252.90.89)
2021-06-08 17:26:16 +0200 <safinaskar> good thread https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2021-June/134073.html
2021-06-08 17:26:25 +0200 <safinaskar> on reallyUnsafePtrEquality#
2021-06-08 17:26:44 +0200yoctocell(~yoctocell@h87-96-130-155.cust.a3fiber.se)
2021-06-08 17:27:07 +0200 <yushyin> we certainly do know most of the tools you mentioned so far, but I do miss the point of all this. didn't you want to install ghc/cabal-install on ARM?
2021-06-08 17:27:36 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-94-34-34-125.clienti.tiscali.it) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:28:21 +0200azeem(~azeem@176.201.35.122)
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2021-06-08 17:31:11 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2021-06-08 17:31:46 +0200azeem(~azeem@176.201.35.122) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-08 17:31:52 +0200cheater(~Username@user/cheater)
2021-06-08 17:32:07 +0200 <maerwald> sorting vocabulary first, I guess
2021-06-08 17:32:25 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28)
2021-06-08 17:33:21 +0200amk(~amk@176.61.106.150) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 17:33:45 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-94-34-34-125.clienti.tiscali.it)
2021-06-08 17:34:10 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-08 17:34:37 +0200anandprabhu(~anandprab@45.134.22.18)
2021-06-08 17:34:39 +0200 <guest61> yes, I ran the ghcup command , and it's installing
2021-06-08 17:35:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 17:36:11 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2021-06-08 17:37:34 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:38:01 +0200amk(~amk@176.61.106.150)
2021-06-08 17:38:19 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2021-06-08 17:40:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:44:38 +0200Deide(~Deide@wire.desu.ga)
2021-06-08 17:44:38 +0200Deide(~Deide@wire.desu.ga) (Changing host)
2021-06-08 17:44:38 +0200Deide(~Deide@user/deide)
2021-06-08 17:44:43 +0200Guest68(~textual@2603-8000-d201-7e1d-c40c-15fa-fd7b-ff64.res6.spectrum.com) (Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-06-08 17:46:50 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:ea21:4b5e:38c6:5b35) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:48:07 +0200lbseale(~lbseale@ip72-194-54-201.sb.sd.cox.net)
2021-06-08 17:48:43 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28)
2021-06-08 17:49:31 +0200jippiedoe(~david@77-171-152-62.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:53:10 +0200oxide(~lambda@user/oxide) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:53:36 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 17:55:02 +0200safinaskar(~user@109.252.90.89) ()
2021-06-08 17:58:21 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-08 17:58:57 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28)
2021-06-08 17:59:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: ghcup wins again :)
2021-06-08 17:59:51 +0200 <guest61> what about stack?
2021-06-08 18:00:47 +0200jippiedoe(~david@77-171-152-62.fixed.kpn.net)
2021-06-08 18:01:19 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2021-06-08 18:03:49 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-06-08 18:04:11 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 18:04:19 +0200magthe(~magthe@c83-252-48-230.bredband.tele2.se) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-06-08 18:05:05 +0200 <raehik> Years back there was a GHC plugin (framework?) named HERMIT. I want to have a go using it due to some handy SYB optimizations, but I can see it's no longer maintained
2021-06-08 18:05:55 +0200 <raehik> I can't find much help on using it. Anyone know about it & whether there'd be anything stopping me using it on GHC 8.x?
2021-06-08 18:07:43 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
2021-06-08 18:08:46 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:9880:303c:ca5b:76ff:fe29:f233) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 18:08:52 +0200 <maerwald> guest61: next ghcup release will allow to install stack too
2021-06-08 18:08:57 +0200 <maerwald> until then visit their website
2021-06-08 18:09:22 +0200 <maerwald> they have their own script that invokes sudo and whatnot :p
2021-06-08 18:11:11 +0200hnOsmium0001(uid453710@id-453710.stonehaven.irccloud.com)
2021-06-08 18:11:31 +0200amahl(~amahl@dsl-jklbng12-54fbca-64.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-06-08 18:11:44 +0200jespada(~jespada@90.254.242.55) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-06-08 18:13:16 +0200oxide(~lambda@user/oxide)
2021-06-08 18:13:39 +0200jespada(~jespada@90.254.242.55)
2021-06-08 18:14:16 +0200 <maerwald> the #powershell channel has a bot that bridges IRC, discord and slack (not sure about matrix)
2021-06-08 18:15:06 +0200 <maerwald> ah: https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge
2021-06-08 18:15:11 +0200 <maerwald> maybe we need that too?
2021-06-08 18:16:03 +0200werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-06-08 18:16:25 +0200 <maerwald> sm[m]: what do you think
2021-06-08 18:22:34 +0200safinaskar(~safinaska@109-252-90-89.nat.spd-mgts.ru)
2021-06-08 18:23:05 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-06-08 18:24:18 +0200Bartosz(~textual@24.35.90.211)
2021-06-08 18:24:19 +0200 <safinaskar> hi. i want to have cabal upper bounds like "< 3.4", as opposed to "< 3.4.5". is it ok to use "import Test.QuickCheck(Arbitrary(..))"? i. e. is it okey to import all class methods at once or i need to name them explicitly?
2021-06-08 18:26:22 +0200 <ski> guest61 : did you get around to take a look at <https://paste.tomsmeding.com/1AU9FcLc> ?
2021-06-08 18:26:47 +0200aplainzetakind(~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2021-06-08 18:29:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> safinaskar: given that packages are supposed to follow the PVP, there aren't supposed to be breaking changes without changing the second version number. So in general I wouldn't expect many "< 3.4.5" constraints at all
2021-06-08 18:29:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> regarding importing all of a class: everyone does that :p
2021-06-08 18:30:10 +0200aplainzetakind(~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net)
2021-06-08 18:30:21 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Win32-2.12.0.0/Win32.cabal
2021-06-08 18:30:46 +0200 <maerwald> I saw one today: hsc2hs:hsc2hs > 0 && < 0.68.6 || > 0.68.6
2021-06-08 18:30:53 +0200 <maerwald> -- Black list hsc2hs 0.68.6 which is horribly broken.
2021-06-08 18:30:55 +0200 <maerwald> hehe
2021-06-08 18:31:13 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-08 18:31:22 +0200dut(~dut@user/dut) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 18:31:43 +0200 <maerwald> from the sound of it someone wasted at least half an hour on a bug
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2021-06-08 18:34:24 +0200 <safinaskar> tomsmeding: but -Wmissing-import-lists warns me about Arbitrary(..). it is ghc bug?
2021-06-08 18:35:45 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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2021-06-08 18:36:30 +0200 <jippiedoe> Not exactly a bug, but there's a reason why it's not enabled by -Wall
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2021-06-08 19:49:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: yep that sounds like a good debugging session there :p
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2021-06-08 21:01:18 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
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2021-06-08 21:07:32 +0200idnar_idnar
2021-06-08 21:11:10 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2021-06-08 21:11:26 +0200matthewr(~matthewr@102.132.241.206)
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2021-06-08 21:11:47 +0200nilof(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com)
2021-06-08 21:14:39 +0200 <amirouche> no more hp, no more mana: I need to learn haskell.
2021-06-08 21:15:55 +0200 <agumonke`> unfaithful to sexp
2021-06-08 21:16:30 +0200 <agumonke`> you'll be reported to the scheme police and quoted for eternity
2021-06-08 21:16:31 +0200Baloo_(~Baloo_@45.83.220.176)
2021-06-08 21:17:20 +0200pierrot(~pi@user/pierrot) (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4 - http://znc.in)
2021-06-08 21:18:02 +0200pierrot(~pi@user/pierrot)
2021-06-08 21:19:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> > repeat '\''
2021-06-08 21:19:14 +0200 <lambdabot> "'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''...
2021-06-08 21:22:36 +0200 <agumonke`> > take 5 (repeat 5)
2021-06-08 21:22:38 +0200 <lambdabot> [5,5,5,5,5]
2021-06-08 21:22:42 +0200 <agumonke`> > take 5 (repeat ".")
2021-06-08 21:22:43 +0200 <lambdabot> [".",".",".",".","."]
2021-06-08 21:27:42 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-89-117.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 21:28:49 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Quit: leaving)
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2021-06-08 21:34:28 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-89-117.ptld.qwest.net)
2021-06-08 21:34:31 +0200ordinate(~ordinate@c-68-38-144-3.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
2021-06-08 21:34:38 +0200 <ordinate> good afternoon
2021-06-08 21:35:06 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2021-06-08 21:35:27 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0)
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2021-06-08 21:42:32 +0200Cajun(~Cajun@ip98-163-211-112.no.no.cox.net)
2021-06-08 21:42:37 +0200safinaskar(~safinaska@109-252-90-89.nat.spd-mgts.ru)
2021-06-08 21:43:03 +0200 <safinaskar> is it possible to use haskell and rust in same project without using c code between?
2021-06-08 21:43:57 +0200 <safinaskar> i want somehow directly convert rust's algebraic data types to haskell's ones and vice versa (at least for some simple types, such as Maybe)
2021-06-08 21:47:06 +0200 <geekosaur> no, it's not. and mixing different heaps is painful at best
2021-06-08 21:47:50 +0200 <Ariakenom> it will just be the C interface right, No actual C code?
2021-06-08 21:48:19 +0200 <safinaskar> geekosaur: thanks :(
2021-06-08 21:48:38 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-08 21:48:41 +0200 <geekosaur> Ariakenom, that depends. I think foreign export writes C stubs
2021-06-08 21:49:14 +0200 <safinaskar> maybe there exists some hacky solution? for example, some small haskell subset, which allows conversion to rust?
2021-06-08 21:49:48 +0200 <safinaskar> i don't need compatibility with existing code. so, it is okey if rust will be no-quite-rust and haskell will be not-quite-haskell
2021-06-08 21:50:40 +0200 <monochrom> I wouldn't count on "without using C code" to mean it very literally.
2021-06-08 21:51:53 +0200 <monochrom> I would look for what's common between Haskell FFI and Rust FFI.
2021-06-08 21:53:34 +0200c_l_ste(~celeste@ip68-12-146-37.ok.ok.cox.net)
2021-06-08 21:56:42 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 21:57:37 +0200 <edmundnoble_> I have some code, versions 1 and 2. Version 2 uses six times as much space and takes twice as long as version 1, according to criterion, the `-s` option, and top. I figured I'd try to narrow down the cause by using the profiler; but when I use profiling, version 1 and 2 both use almost the exact same amount of space, divided up in the same way
2021-06-08 21:57:41 +0200 <edmundnoble_> Does this observation at all narrow down the possible causes? Versions 1 and 2 should have the same performance by my reckoning
2021-06-08 21:59:12 +0200awth13(~awth13@user/awth13) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-06-08 22:02:19 +0200werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-06-08 22:02:34 +0200fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@2620:72:0:6480::10f7)
2021-06-08 22:03:09 +0200 <[exa]> safinaskar: rust's types have much more defined memory representation, if you really want to do that, I suggest just passing through a pointer to a rust-style data structure and reading/reserializing it in haskell
2021-06-08 22:03:35 +0200 <amirouche> a pipe
2021-06-08 22:03:38 +0200 <[exa]> (in short, I'd much rather interpret rust data in haskell than haskell data in rust)
2021-06-08 22:03:59 +0200 <[exa]> also yes, unixy solutions are the best, thanks amirouche
2021-06-08 22:05:43 +0200juhp(~juhp@128.106.188.66) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:06:04 +0200 <safinaskar> okey
2021-06-08 22:06:11 +0200 <Ariakenom> ... are either of them defined?
2021-06-08 22:06:29 +0200 <safinaskar> i still think that translator from subset of haskell to rust would be valuable project
2021-06-08 22:07:06 +0200 <safinaskar> it will allow combine haskell and rust in same project and get access to big rust package repo and get rust speed with haskell guarantees and beaty
2021-06-08 22:07:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-08 22:07:10 +0200_ht(~quassel@82-169-194-8.biz.kpn.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 22:07:14 +0200 <[exa]> safinaskar: that might be the ML languages. :D
2021-06-08 22:07:41 +0200juhp(~juhp@128.106.188.66)
2021-06-08 22:07:43 +0200 <[exa]> check out CakeML, you might like that one
2021-06-08 22:07:52 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: ocaml has even fewer packages than haskell (and of course fewer than rust)
2021-06-08 22:07:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> edmundnoble_: and in absolute sense? Is the performance with profiling closer to the non-profiling version 1 or 2?
2021-06-08 22:08:27 +0200nilof(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:08:28 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: go open ocaml list of packages: https://opam.ocaml.org/packages/ . the page loads in one second on my computer
2021-06-08 22:08:29 +0200 <edmundnoble_> The performance with profiling is not directly comparable to that without profiling
2021-06-08 22:08:36 +0200 <edmundnoble_> It's several orders of magnitude slower
2021-06-08 22:08:41 +0200 <edmundnoble_> If that's what you mean
2021-06-08 22:08:50 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: compare this with http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/
2021-06-08 22:08:55 +0200 <[exa]> safinaskar: well if you define a language by number of packages, you might as well check out NPM
2021-06-08 22:09:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> edmundnoble_: ah right
2021-06-08 22:09:28 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 22:09:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> edmundnoble_: I expect that the difference between 1 and 2 is how much gets inlined where, and how much optimisations that triggers
2021-06-08 22:09:55 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0)
2021-06-08 22:10:00 +0200emliunix__(~emliunix@198.144.166.57) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-08 22:10:03 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-06-08 22:10:18 +0200emliunix__(~emliunix@198.144.166.57)
2021-06-08 22:10:22 +0200 <safinaskar> haskell and rust has enough packages. ocaml - not
2021-06-08 22:10:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> profiling adds instrumentation in lots of places, which affects (mostly prevents) inlining -- and that has a strong impact on performance
2021-06-08 22:11:10 +0200 <dminuoso> 21:57:33 safinaskar | [19:43:03] is it possible to use haskell and rust in same project without using c code between?
2021-06-08 22:11:14 +0200 <dminuoso> This is how .NET was born. :p
2021-06-08 22:12:10 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-89-117.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:12:29 +0200 <edmundnoble_> Mmmkay, so profiling is preventing whatever optimization is responsible for version 1's performance, perhaps, and this optimization improves both space and time usage
2021-06-08 22:12:32 +0200 <dminuoso> This type of interoperability only works when the languages/reference implementations are under your control, so you can specify how that interop even means.
2021-06-08 22:12:58 +0200kmein(~weechat@user/kmein) (Quit: ciao kakao)
2021-06-08 22:13:01 +0200oak-(~oakuniver@2001:470:69fc:105::fcd) (Quit: Reconnecting)
2021-06-08 22:13:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> edmundnoble_: I'm not sure if that's it, but at least it's consistent with the observations you've written down here :p
2021-06-08 22:13:05 +0200 <dminuoso> For languages with very different semantics designed and controlled by different people, C FFI is the only thing you have since that gives you a well defined FFI that everybody else can target
2021-06-08 22:13:13 +0200 <[exa]> safinaskar: still, one could easily say that it is the rust-compatible subset of haskell
2021-06-08 22:13:20 +0200oak-(~oakuniver@2001:470:69fc:105::fcd)
2021-06-08 22:13:38 +0200kmein(~weechat@user/kmein)
2021-06-08 22:14:07 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: it seems cakeml doesn't have package repo at all. (i opened cakeml.org, then tried to find words "package" and "repo" using ctrl-f)
2021-06-08 22:14:14 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:90fb:e693:9986:91e0) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:14:49 +0200 <[exa]> that's good
2021-06-08 22:15:00 +0200nilof(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com)
2021-06-08 22:15:05 +0200 <pavonia> In parser combinators, how do you best deal with input like <start><message><end> where you only know at <end> how to parse the message? I would prefer to not have multiple look-ahead passes over the message to find the kind of <end> tag
2021-06-08 22:15:22 +0200 <dolio> Well, Rust could publish some kind of stable foreign interface other than the C one, but they don't.
2021-06-08 22:16:00 +0200 <[exa]> pavonia: if you can eat message as a bytestring or something and then parse it, I really suggest having 2-level parsing structure
2021-06-08 22:16:30 +0200 <dolio> I guess the question is what it would contain in addition to the C one that is worth it.
2021-06-08 22:16:55 +0200 <edmundnoble_> You will ultimately have multiple passes, pavonia, unless you parse it backwards I suppose
2021-06-08 22:17:33 +0200 <[exa]> that reminds me the cool paper on pika parsers that actually run backwards
2021-06-08 22:17:40 +0200 <pavonia> [exa]: By two levels you mean like tokenization and real parsing?
2021-06-08 22:18:36 +0200 <[exa]> not necessarily tokenization, but yeah, first take out the message raw, then parse it when you're sure where it should end
2021-06-08 22:19:48 +0200 <[exa]> safinaskar: anyway, why avoid C so much? it's going be somewhere in the way no matter what you'll do, unless you plan to rewrite significant portions of both languages' FFIs
2021-06-08 22:20:31 +0200 <geekosaur> not to mention the question of whether they both even represent something like "Maybe Int" the same way
2021-06-08 22:20:33 +0200 <davean> [exa]: to be fair, Haskell doesn't really care about Cness, it cares about ABI
2021-06-08 22:20:36 +0200 <davean> you can just match on that
2021-06-08 22:20:45 +0200 <pavonia> Hhm, I would need to somehow fake the starting position of the message string parsing then, I guess
2021-06-08 22:22:01 +0200AgentM(~agentm@pool-162-83-130-212.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-06-08 22:22:45 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-213-49-189-31.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:23:06 +0200 <Ariakenom> geekosaur the answer is no
2021-06-08 22:23:21 +0200 <geekosaur> I figured as much
2021-06-08 22:24:20 +0200 <[exa]> davean: fair point
2021-06-08 22:24:38 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-89-117.ptld.qwest.net)
2021-06-08 22:24:39 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: okey, let me describe my real task. i want to write prover. i could implement it either in haskell or in rust. but both methods has disadvantageous. Pure Haskell is bad, because sometimes i need ST monad and so I end up with *very* ugly ST monad code. Pure rust is bad, too, because it is too verbose. So I want somehow combine two langs in
2021-06-08 22:24:40 +0200 <safinaskar> same project. I want to pass algebraic data structures directly between langs. If it is not possible, then i would better simply stick to one language
2021-06-08 22:24:48 +0200 <davean> [exa]: The docs sure look C-ish! but thats kinda a side detail
2021-06-08 22:24:54 +0200 <davean> I bet rust can export C-ish
2021-06-08 22:24:57 +0200 <davean> and you can just match that
2021-06-08 22:25:03 +0200 <davean> I'm not saying its a "good" approach
2021-06-08 22:25:24 +0200 <[exa]> safinaskar: symbolic theorem prover or something more involved?
2021-06-08 22:25:25 +0200 <safinaskar> i want write most code in haskell and resort to rust in places where i overwise would use st monad
2021-06-08 22:25:42 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: i don't understand question
2021-06-08 22:25:54 +0200 <[exa]> "prover" is a pretty wide category of things
2021-06-08 22:25:59 +0200fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@2620:72:0:6480::10f7) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-06-08 22:26:03 +0200 <Ariakenom> haskell: pointer to heap to maybe data which includes more than just the tag (also an info table). and then another pointer to int data that also has the same fluff
2021-06-08 22:26:07 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: i want to write proof checker with additional ability for trivial proof search
2021-06-08 22:26:14 +0200 <dolio> Is writing a ton of FFI and marshalling code really going to be less ugly than ST?
2021-06-08 22:26:28 +0200 <orzo> i'd like to see a low-level bootstrapped prover written in something like forth or assembly
2021-06-08 22:26:31 +0200 <Ariakenom> rust: stack allocated with a tag and an int. no pointers
2021-06-08 22:27:16 +0200 <orzo> safinaskar: ever consider that?
2021-06-08 22:27:53 +0200 <orzo> as a way of making code auditable
2021-06-08 22:28:14 +0200 <davean> orzo: audit assembly? I only know of us having a spec for ARM assembly :)
2021-06-08 22:28:25 +0200 <davean> orzo: They publish an XML file that defines transitions for their ASM
2021-06-08 22:28:33 +0200 <davean> but like we litterly guess at what x86 assembly does
2021-06-08 22:28:52 +0200 <[exa]> "mov always moved data right?" "right?"
2021-06-08 22:29:02 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:29:18 +0200 <davean> And like ARM has that spec, but we don't believe the spec is right!
2021-06-08 22:29:27 +0200 <davean> we just believe we know where the error is when it doesn't behave that way
2021-06-08 22:31:07 +0200 <[exa]> safinaskar: so, for softwareengineering a solution for that, what if you (for a prototype, which you should do anyway) just serialize the data for a common format and use a normal FFI to call each other's functions? Rust can make a .o with callable symbols right?
2021-06-08 22:31:58 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: mov moves data right in at&t syntax and left in intel syntax...
2021-06-08 22:32:37 +0200 <safinaskar> [exa]: too much work, i will stick to one language
2021-06-08 22:33:19 +0200 <davean> safinaskar: well, lets assume machine code, because thats all just an encoding and we don't care about encoding :)
2021-06-08 22:34:07 +0200 <safinaskar> orzo: lean 4 prover's kernel is implemented in c++. rest of lean 4 implemented in lean itself
2021-06-08 22:35:56 +0200juhp(~juhp@128.106.188.66) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:37:02 +0200 <safinaskar> pavonia: "I would need to somehow fake the starting position of the message string parsing then, I guess" - many parser lib allow this. i. e. actual function to run parser accepts argument meaning starting position
2021-06-08 22:40:18 +0200 <safinaskar> orzo: "ever consider that?" - no. you may like bootstrappable project ( https://bootstrappable.org/ ), in particular their haskell experiments ( https://elephly.net/posts/2017-01-09-bootstrapping-haskell-part-1.html )
2021-06-08 22:40:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:41:02 +0200 <safinaskar> orzo: or this subprojects: https://github.com/oriansj/stage0 https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/
2021-06-08 22:42:05 +0200 <davean> safinaskar: wow, a guix reference in the wild, cool
2021-06-08 22:43:04 +0200agumonke`(~user@88.160.31.174) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:43:45 +0200 <safinaskar> davean: i not sure this counts as "wild". i suspect set of authors of bootstrappable, stage0 and mes intersects with set of authors of guix
2021-06-08 22:43:53 +0200kw(~user@152.1.137.158)
2021-06-08 22:45:41 +0200agumonke`(~user@88.160.31.174)
2021-06-08 22:45:46 +0200 <kw> Is there a cabal equivalent to using a stack.yaml with `extra-deps: https://github.com/org/repo/archive/package.zip` ?
2021-06-08 22:45:53 +0200fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@2620:72:0:6480::10f7)
2021-06-08 22:46:04 +0200 <davean> kw: yes I think if I understand what that means
2021-06-08 22:46:15 +0200 <davean> kw: you can reference alternative package sppliers in cabal.projects
2021-06-08 22:46:23 +0200 <davean> I do it quite a bit
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2021-06-08 22:47:00 +0200bruceleewees(~bruceleew@83.24.248.233.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
2021-06-08 22:48:05 +0200 <kw> davean: Oh, I see that in the docs for cabal.project using `source-repository-package` . Exactly what I need, thanks!
2021-06-08 22:48:35 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.21.10.116) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-08 22:48:44 +0200 <davean> kw: great! I was guessing at the stack variant's meaning! :)
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2021-06-08 22:54:02 +0200 <maerwald> pantry has so much alternative syntax, it's weird
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2021-06-08 22:58:27 +0200 <edmundnoble_> Okay now my code is way faster with profiling enabled, argh
2021-06-08 22:59:38 +0200 <edmundnoble_> Maybe this is a good thing, and I should enable profiling in production...
2021-06-08 22:59:41 +0200 <edmundnoble_> ;)
2021-06-08 22:59:52 +0200 <davean> edmundnoble_: I mean thats fairly suggestive
2021-06-08 22:59:56 +0200 <edmundnoble_> It is???
2021-06-08 23:00:08 +0200 <davean> Well, theres differences in how it compiles with profiling
2021-06-08 23:00:08 +0200 <edmundnoble_> Wonderful, what does it suggest?
2021-06-08 23:00:16 +0200 <davean> I expect you might have some bad rules, etc
2021-06-08 23:00:20 +0200 <davean> depending on what options you enabled
2021-06-08 23:00:25 +0200 <edmundnoble_> Hm
2021-06-08 23:00:38 +0200 <edmundnoble_> I have not written rewrite rules *but* my hot code touches Vector...
2021-06-08 23:00:52 +0200 <davean> have you tried different optimization levels when you build it?
2021-06-08 23:01:05 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-06-08 23:01:09 +0200 <davean> profiling disables a bunch of optimizations effectively
2021-06-08 23:01:39 +0200 <edmundnoble_> I try with -O1 now, with no profiling, to test that
2021-06-08 23:01:44 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2021-06-08 23:02:00 +0200 <davean> edmundnoble_: Its not like a direct answer, but its a strong smell of where to look
2021-06-08 23:02:06 +0200yin(~yin@user/yin) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-08 23:02:50 +0200 <edmundnoble_> Hm no dice, but I will look at the other things profiling does to my optimization flags
2021-06-08 23:03:46 +0200 <edmundnoble_> My only optimization options otherwise are `-fno-cse` and `-fno-full-laziness`, out of paranoia
2021-06-08 23:03:50 +0200 <edmundnoble_> And disabling them does nothing
2021-06-08 23:04:25 +0200 <davean> well, the thing I'd say about profiling is it often forces things to exist.
2021-06-08 23:04:56 +0200 <davean> specificly things that are annotated for profiling
2021-06-08 23:04:59 +0200 <edmundnoble_> To make SCC's more useful, I guess? So less inlining in some areas?
2021-06-08 23:05:03 +0200 <davean> yes
2021-06-08 23:05:27 +0200 <dminuoso> profiling makes TSOs larger too right?
2021-06-08 23:05:42 +0200 <davean> dminuoso: That shouldn't make performance increase though
2021-06-08 23:05:53 +0200 <davean> I'm focusing on what profiling improving performance suggests
2021-06-08 23:06:21 +0200 <davean> edmundnoble_: oh, and forcing things to exist changes evaluation order remember
2021-06-08 23:06:37 +0200 <davean> which you know can interact with laziness
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2021-06-08 23:27:56 +0200 <sm[m]> It's https://github.com/github/maintainerweek . Hug a maintainer today 😀
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2021-06-08 23:53:51 +0200 <Athas> Hackage rejects packages that don't have upper bounds on base? How annoying.
2021-06-08 23:54:19 +0200 <maerwald> Athas: I work around it by doing `base < 100000`
2021-06-08 23:54:34 +0200 <Athas> Yes, I will do so as well.
2021-06-08 23:54:42 +0200 <Athas> Pointless busywork.
2021-06-08 23:54:55 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2021-06-08 23:54:57 +0200 <Athas> And 'cabal check' didn't even say anything about it!
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