2025/11/20

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2025-11-20 02:19:17 +0100buzzoni(~steven@2600:6c44:2e00:1e5b::1a92) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-20 03:57:44 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> There is an idiot in ubuntu support channel who is afraid to upgrade to ubuntu 25.10 cuz he thinks xmonad dont work anymore. Please let him know he's wrong.
2025-11-20 03:58:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> Ubuntu has not removed Xorg in any way. If you have GNOME desktop installed, using that will require using wayland, but won't affect xmonad in any possible way.
2025-11-20 04:14:33 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> He's also in this channel btw, I wasnt suggesting come to ubuntu channel.
2025-11-20 04:14:34 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> That's correct. It does have knock-on effects on other desktop environments, but xmonad itself isn't affected
2025-11-20 04:16:04 +0100OpenSource(~OpenSourc@user/OpenSource) OpenSource
2025-11-20 04:16:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> (but that bites me because I use xmonad with MATE and auth to Google services needs Gnome)
2025-11-20 04:18:32 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> People in #support:ubuntu.com (https://matrix.to/#/#support:ubuntu.com) are arguing with me that Gnome/Ubuntu 25.10+ drop support for Xorg sessions doesn't affect Xmonad. They don't understand that some people use Gnome + Xmonad as their WM.
2025-11-20 04:19:38 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Someone even called me an idiot because I brought that up. They're like Xmonad and gnome have nothing to do with one another. Clearly they don't understand the core of the problem.
2025-11-20 04:23:56 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> in my defense, i jumped in late, it is only once i saw the argument in here that i understood the misunderstanding
2025-11-20 04:24:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> also please don't call it gnome/ubuntu 25.10 that's part of the confusion
2025-11-20 04:24:56 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> +cause if
2025-11-20 04:25:25 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> that part is clear to me, its ubuntyu 25.10 that includes gnome 49 that doesnt include xsession
2025-11-20 04:25:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> xmonad _can_ work on ubuntu 25.10 just not under GNOME
2025-11-20 04:25:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> but, i am now trying to understand, and it seems there was a 3rd party gnome-session-xmonad that would allow using xmonad within gnome as the WM
2025-11-20 04:26:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> i can only find it for jammy and earlier, but perhaps its somewhere else and works for noble or plucky
2025-11-20 04:26:27 +0100 <geekosaur> uh, is that even possible? Gnome-flashback wouldn't be affected, since it's Gnome 2 with a Gnome 3 theme
2025-11-20 04:26:51 +0100 <geekosaur> Gnome 3 window manager components are JS
2025-11-20 04:27:43 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> sounds like the real question is, how did Nexilva get xmonad running under gnome
2025-11-20 04:27:47 +0100 <geekosaur> and xmonad would need a major overhaul to work by plugging into a JS plugin
2025-11-20 04:28:10 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> * gnome?
2025-11-20 04:28:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> They're trying to argue about compositors etc. I'm simply informing them that there is a problem going forward in Ubuntu 25.10+ where gnome drops support for x11 sessions and only has Wayland session.
2025-11-20 04:28:23 +0100 <geekosaur> if gnome-flashback exists, telling gnome 3 to run an external window manager uses it
2025-11-20 04:28:33 +0100 <geekosaur> but that means you're actually running gnome 2
2025-11-20 04:28:59 +0100 <geekosaur> and there's about zero chance the gnome devs will release a new gnome 2 without X11 support
2025-11-20 04:29:34 +0100 <geekosaur> they care only about gnome 3 these days
2025-11-20 04:30:35 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Xmonad simply doesn't work under Wayland. So Ubuntu 25.10+ Gnome users can't use Xmonad as their WM with the Gnome Desktop.
2025-11-20 04:30:42 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> Nexilva: We're past that now fwiw; now we're trying to figure how you got xmonad working under gnome
2025-11-20 04:30:49 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> Nexilva: But can 24.04 users?
2025-11-20 04:31:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> or 25.04
2025-11-20 04:31:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Oh so you want to talk to me now after calling me an idiot? No thanks.
2025-11-20 04:31:40 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> Still trying to help you, still trying to understand, as you still haven't explained.
2025-11-20 04:31:46 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> If there was nothing to debate, why are you here?
2025-11-20 04:31:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> yeah that's on you enigma
2025-11-20 04:31:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> But absolutely, I didnt understand what you were saying, and I apologize.
2025-11-20 04:31:57 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> I'm here trying to help you, still!
2025-11-20 04:32:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Fine.
2025-11-20 04:32:08 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> I accept your apology.
2025-11-20 04:32:08 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> You told me to join here, sheesh.
2025-11-20 04:32:58 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> this gnome-session-xnomad was never provided by ubuntu, but i have found ppa for jammy, but thats long ago.
2025-11-20 04:33:28 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> Nexilva: so how did you install xmonad under gnome?
2025-11-20 04:33:48 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> If you look carefully in #support:ubuntu.com (https://matrix.to/#/#support:ubuntu.com) I said that I use KDE + Xmonad. I don't use Gnome.
2025-11-20 04:34:05 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> Just that people are worried.
2025-11-20 04:34:05 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> Even geekosaur is confused about that
2025-11-20 04:34:22 +0100 <geekosaur> I'm not in #support:ubuntu.com
2025-11-20 04:34:34 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> Nexilva: then why were talking about gnome 😂
2025-11-20 04:34:36 +0100 <geekosaur> That detail wasn't mentioned here, only Gnome vs. xmonad
2025-11-20 04:34:42 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> I can certainly see that gnome removing support for x session will make it far more difficult than before to create this xmonad session. But I suspect it hasn't worked for quite a while anyway.
2025-11-20 04:35:01 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> * anyway, but could be wrong.
2025-11-20 04:35:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> i don't believe kde removed their x11 session yet, did they?
2025-11-20 04:35:45 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Fuseteam: Because friends in my Xmonad community use it. I just mentioned it. I didn't expect a verbal avalanche in Ubuntu.
2025-11-20 04:36:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> Nexilva: misunderstanding happen
2025-11-20 04:36:31 +0100 <geekosaur> ubuntu as of 25.04 still has gnome-flashback, so everything I said about it earlier applies
2025-11-20 04:36:33 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> then we would need to know how your friends did that
2025-11-20 04:36:37 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> Fuseteam: No, and it won't happen with 6.x either.
2025-11-20 04:36:43 +0100 <geekosaur> I don't know if 25.10 does
2025-11-20 04:36:53 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> That's all they've committed to for sure is that plasma 6.x will always support X; plasma 7 is TBD
2025-11-20 04:38:00 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> if it's the ppa (as jammy is still supported) they'll have to move DEs unfortunately
2025-11-20 04:38:22 +0100 <geekosaur> it does, so anyone using the flashback mechanism to run xmonad under gnome will still work
2025-11-20 04:38:35 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> I won't able able to use Plasma 6 with Xmonad as Plasma 6 breaks functionality in Xmonad. Panels don't pop up menus anymore. There is a patch for it I maintain, but the patch no longer works in plasma6. I checked it already.
2025-11-20 04:38:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> The last plasma version that patch works on is plasma5.
2025-11-20 04:39:20 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> geekosaur: So if it's flashback it won't break
2025-11-20 04:39:28 +0100 <geekosaur> that sdoesn't surprise me greatly, as it's actually running the final release of gnome 2
2025-11-20 04:40:16 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> yeah, so it really depends on the question of how xmonad is being run under gnome
2025-11-20 04:40:40 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/174 is the issue for KDE users. The patch works in 24.04, but not in 25.10 or 26.04
2025-11-20 04:41:05 +0100 <geekosaur> there isn't any other way I'm aware of. actually using xmonad with gnome 3 would require a modified xmonad which did everything by relaying to/from a JS shim
2025-11-20 04:41:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Even switching distros wont' help as the problem is in plasmaframework package, src/plasmaquick/dialog.cpp
2025-11-20 04:41:23 +0100 <geekosaur> everything's a gnome-shell plugin in gnome 3
2025-11-20 04:41:33 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> also how does one conversation happen at 3 speeds? O.o
2025-11-20 04:42:15 +0100 <geekosaur> you think this is bad, try having the participants spread between 3 widely separated timezones 🙂
2025-11-20 04:42:56 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> i have had that, but we're all here at the moment all talking past each other 🤣
2025-11-20 04:42:57 +0100 <geekosaur> sorry, you'll have to wait 2 hours for the response from the dude in australia 🙂
2025-11-20 04:43:03 +0100 <geekosaur> *12
2025-11-20 04:43:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> * experienced
2025-11-20 04:44:40 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> anyway i was certainly mistaken, i was under the impression one couldn't swap out the WM in gnome anymore at all, so when they said they used gnome with xmonad, i didnt understand they were using them at the same time.
2025-11-20 04:44:44 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> i have worked with people from both belgium, india and china being from suriname myself; but this kinda hilarious to see
2025-11-20 04:44:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Your guy's issue about Gnome looks like has a solution, but my KDE/plasmaframework issue so far has no solution. ☹️
2025-11-20 04:45:38 +0100 <geekosaur> you can swap it out but only with other JS plugins
2025-11-20 04:45:41 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> Nexilva: ah so they're using gnome-flashback?
2025-11-20 04:45:49 +0100 <geekosaur> there's even a tiling wm plugin, but I hear it's pretty crappy
2025-11-20 04:46:20 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> cause that's a different DE than regular gnome
2025-11-20 04:46:46 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> * gnome-flashback is
2025-11-20 04:47:13 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> geekosaur: it is indeed, it's more like super charged window snapping than actual tiling
2025-11-20 04:48:09 +0100 <geekosaur> as to plasma 6, I don't think there can be any solution without talking the KDE devs into playing nicely with non-KDE components 😞
2025-11-20 04:48:13 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> the best i've seen is popos's popshell— but that's a manual setup (and they're going cosmic)
2025-11-20 04:48:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> ☹️
2025-11-20 04:49:00 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Looks like I'll be stuck on 24.04 until 34.04 and then we'll see what to do. I will have to use just Xmonad + standalone panels and systray
2025-11-20 04:49:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> geekosaur: time to integrate into KDE
2025-11-20 04:49:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> The only things I use KDE for are KDE apps and plasma panels.
2025-11-20 04:49:23 +0100 <geekosaur> I don't think that would work here
2025-11-20 04:49:48 +0100 <geekosaur> it's more about KDE dialogs and stuff just not playing along with other window managers
2025-11-20 04:50:00 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> krita okular kdeconnect
2025-11-20 04:50:14 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> those are my 3 favorite kde apps
2025-11-20 04:50:17 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> I still haven't found a standalone systray with a wifi feature that lets you control network manager and wifi.
2025-11-20 04:50:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> when my kids were little, gcompris would be on that list too.
2025-11-20 04:50:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Otherwise trayer or stalonetray would do
2025-11-20 04:50:25 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> Nexilva: uh about that— that 5 years extended support is only security fixes, it does not include community support
2025-11-20 04:50:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Ubuntu pro provides 10 years of support I was told by Nils
2025-11-20 04:50:55 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> 15 now
2025-11-20 04:50:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> they just upped it to 15
2025-11-20 04:51:03 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Oh nice
2025-11-20 04:51:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> I have an 18.04 laptop I was worried I was gunna have to upgrade in a couple years, but now I've got longer.
2025-11-20 04:51:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> geekosaur: oh i actually was poking in the direction of merging with kwin; but i was also half joking, that a whole different endeavor after all
2025-11-20 04:52:34 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> I need a standalone menu/app panel, task manager bar, and systray. Then I don't need plasmashell anymore.
2025-11-20 04:52:47 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> Nexilva: ask him what that means exactly
2025-11-20 04:53:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> https://ubuntu.com/blog/canonical-expands-total-coverage-for-ubuntu-lts-releases-to-15-years-with-…
2025-11-20 04:53:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> there is some nuance to it
2025-11-20 04:53:27 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> I have done it on my 18.04 machine, it requires registering with canoical, giving them your details.
2025-11-20 04:53:37 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Ubuntu Pro extends the life of every Ubuntu LTS from 5 years of standard security maintenance for the Main repository to 10 years for the entire Ubuntu Archive (Main and Universe repositories).
2025-11-20 04:53:45 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> for home users, you can get 5 codes, and theres a command you use to register the code with each machine.
2025-11-20 04:53:47 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Where did you read 15 years?
2025-11-20 04:53:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> I just linked the article about 15 years, look to my link Nexilva.
2025-11-20 04:54:17 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> it is aimed at companies running legacy software to keep it secure
2025-11-20 04:54:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> it does not include community reporting bugs and those getting fixed
2025-11-20 04:55:02 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> I got it
2025-11-20 04:55:07 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> but we're offtopic here now :p
2025-11-20 04:56:41 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> I doubt the KDE devs are willing to support Xmonad functionality. I really need to find an alternative panel for Xmonad and a systray that supports wifi plugin or something.
2025-11-20 04:57:44 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> I've tried a few diff panels without much luck. lxqt-panel, xfce4-panel, etc. but they didn't come with any wifi module for the systray, so I can't use them. I don't want to have to type commands to manage my wifi. ☹️
2025-11-20 04:58:03 +0100 <geekosaur> it could also be argued that xmonad should support whatever they need, probably as an EwmhDesktops plugin. but if they don't document that there's not much we can do there
2025-11-20 04:58:35 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> i think xfce uses ayatana indicators for that
2025-11-20 04:58:46 +0100 <geekosaur> (KDE does use a bunch of pseudo-EWMH _KDE_NET_… properties and messages)
2025-11-20 04:59:17 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> you can use "network-manager-applet"
2025-11-20 04:59:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> that package puts a wifi icon in your systray
2025-11-20 04:59:37 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> * wifi/network
2025-11-20 04:59:42 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> geekosaur: wonder if kde devs could be consulted on it, some sort if collab
2025-11-20 04:59:54 +0100 <geekosaur> I'd been wondering about that, other people have reported that works fine
2025-11-20 05:00:10 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> * like some sort of
2025-11-20 05:00:13 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> * systray, and comes with advanced connection editor gui too. but you can do basic stuff right from systray like connect to wifi or enable vpn.
2025-11-20 05:00:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> Nexilva: ever tried plank? simple....
2025-11-20 05:01:03 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> but plank does not provide a systray
2025-11-20 05:01:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> Never even heard of plank.
2025-11-20 05:01:09 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> plank is a simple dock
2025-11-20 05:01:10 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> very nice
2025-11-20 05:01:15 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> macos style but works well
2025-11-20 05:02:12 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> It needs to also display my Xmonad workspaces in the panel, like so:
2025-11-20 05:02:16 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/matrix.org/FaqesWpMTZOtiukFiZnhjWER/ZMfVKFHs0O0/image.png
2025-11-20 05:02:45 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> See the 10 workspaces on panel? I can't find another panel outside KDE that integrates with Xmonad workspaces
2025-11-20 05:02:46 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> ya plank too simple for what youw ant
2025-11-20 05:02:55 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> oh yeah there's also the vala panel project
2025-11-20 05:02:55 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> * you want
2025-11-20 05:02:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> I don't think there's a variant of xmonad-log-applet for plasmapanel, sadly
2025-11-20 05:03:27 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> (all the edits are getting too hard to follow from IRC side)
2025-11-20 05:03:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> but anyways that network-manager-applet will work with that panel you have, 99% sure.
2025-11-20 05:04:09 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> I'll check out the new panels if I need to upgrade. Currently happy with KDE and Xmonad so far which has been my setup for years.
2025-11-20 05:04:11 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> oh gosh didn't realize you were on irc
2025-11-20 05:04:40 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> I'm actually n both sides, but I usually stick to IRC because I'm a chanop there
2025-11-20 05:05:02 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> (I think only Solid is a mod on matrix? maybe Tomas too)
2025-11-20 05:05:24 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> ah makes sense, tho still— sorry for the noise xd
2025-11-20 05:05:32 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Nexilva> liskin and solid and unclechu are admins here on Matrix side
2025-11-20 05:06:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> (I was trying not to ping Tomas)
2025-11-20 05:07:58 +0100 <haskellbridge> <enigma9o7> sorry i didnt realize this was bridged to irc, probably me editing. and i dont even use xmonad so i'll leave this channel now, but good luck, and sorry for name caling nexliva, love you.
2025-11-20 05:10:47 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> anyway re IRC nicks on matrix, if you look at the mxid (should be a mouseover in Element) it's pretty obvious which the bridged ones are
2025-11-20 05:11:36 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> although if you're on a phone/tablet I guess "mouseover" doesn;t work well :)
2025-11-20 05:11:57 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> * doesn't work well 😀
2025-11-20 05:13:16 +0100strohpappy(~steven@2600:6c44:2e00:1e5b::1903)
2025-11-20 05:17:30 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> yeah i'm on ubuntu touch xd
2025-11-20 05:18:28 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Fuseteam> but yeah i should sleep lol tis past 1AM here and i may need to get up at 5AM
2025-11-20 05:33:43 +0100 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur (@geekosaur:matrix.org)> ugh, yes