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| 2025-05-21 00:41:49 +0200 | driib318 | (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2025-05-21 00:44:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | LAC-Tech, there's imprecise exceptions |
| 2025-05-21 00:45:04 +0200 | <EvanR> | so technically unknown "pure code" containing no unsafePerformIO is not guaranteed to be deterministic |
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| 2025-05-21 00:48:50 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> we’re talking about asynchronous exceptions, right ? |
| 2025-05-21 00:49:11 +0200 | <EvanR> | no |
| 2025-05-21 00:49:29 +0200 | <EvanR> | like error "foo" + error "bar" |
| 2025-05-21 00:50:10 +0200 | <geekosaur> | if the compiler can determine that multiple paths all lead to bottoms, it can arbitrarily pick one |
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| 2025-05-21 01:04:26 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> why is things like whenM not in base? I see that ghc and extra packages have them. |
| 2025-05-21 01:05:15 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I am exploring the design space of caving into monadic bang vs. having these specialized fooM functions. |
| 2025-05-21 01:05:40 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> hence the question |
| 2025-05-21 01:07:39 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Usually something like traverse_ is better anyway. |
| 2025-05-21 01:07:40 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-21 01:07:44 +0200 | <EvanR> | normal language: bool does a lot of heavy lifting, in haskell I feel like it got relegated to tier 4 control technology. Because you pattern match on more meaningful things most of time |
| 2025-05-21 01:07:45 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) |
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| 2025-05-21 01:08:34 +0200 | <c_wraith> | and that's because you generally try to avoid Bool, yeah |
| 2025-05-21 01:08:56 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-21 01:10:13 +0200 | <LAC-Tech> | EvanR: interesting. General impression I'm getting is "it's mostly solved by the IO boundaries but there's a few annoying edge cases" |
| 2025-05-21 01:11:07 +0200 | <EvanR> | haskell is like the jumping off point to new languages with more guarantees rather than the destination |
| 2025-05-21 01:11:17 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Well, without IO you can't distinguish between different bottoms anyway |
| 2025-05-21 01:11:51 +0200 | <c_wraith> | So it doesn't really matter what exception is thrown, the value is a bottom. |
| 2025-05-21 01:11:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | but also if you mutate your perspective enough you can say haskell guarantees this or that ^ |
| 2025-05-21 01:12:20 +0200 | <EvanR> | the less actual stuff you care about the more abstract haskell gets |
| 2025-05-21 01:12:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | e.g. next you could just ignore bottom entirely |
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| 2025-05-21 01:22:09 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> LAC-Tech: I think it’s a recurring topic of language geeks but it doesn’t feel like a common annoyance for people building with haskell, we generally feel pretty confident in the “pure” parts of our code |
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| 2025-05-21 01:25:11 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> eg I’ve been building small-medium Haskell apps for the last 18 years, they feel pretty deterministic |
| 2025-05-21 01:25:44 +0200 | <LAC-Tech> | the property I am looking for is: same inputs, same outputs. notably this does not preclude mutable data structures, as long as they're internal - I'm not sure "pure" extends that far. system clocks, RNG, IO (maybe RNG falls under IO...), disk, network... that's stuff I'd want to exclude statically, if possible |
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| 2025-05-21 01:29:56 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Yes, all those require the IO type |
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| 2025-05-21 01:32:27 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
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| 2025-05-21 01:37:27 +0200 | <LAC-Tech> | aha, I thought so |
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| 2025-05-21 01:40:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Haskell code universally enforces this. There’s an escape hatch called unsafePerformIO which low level libs may use when it’s guaranteed harmless but you can statically check that too |
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| 2025-05-21 01:42:47 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (or even high level code, I do use it occasionally but that’s a choice) |
| 2025-05-21 01:44:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | LAC-Tech, it's cool that you can use mutable structures in "pure code" via ST |
| 2025-05-21 01:44:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | the user of the code doesn't have to know |
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| 2025-05-21 04:06:01 +0200 | <LAC-Tech> | EvanR: aha, I did not know that. I need to look up ST |
| 2025-05-21 04:08:15 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-21 04:10:40 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-05-21 04:10:41 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-21 04:10:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | :t runST (newSTRef 0 >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:00 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:01 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | :t runST (newSTRef (0::Int) >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:09 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Int |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | > runST (newSTRef (0::Int) >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:17 +0200 | <lambdabot> | 11 |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:28 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:39 +0200 | <EvanR> | haskell: the best imperative language? |
| 2025-05-21 04:11:58 +0200 | <jackdk> | Unironically |
| 2025-05-21 04:12:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-21 04:13:21 +0200 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |