| 2025-05-10 00:01:26 +0200 | shr\ke | (~shrike@user/paxhumana) paxhumana |
| 2025-05-10 00:01:26 +0200 | shr\ke | (~shrike@user/paxhumana) (Changing host) |
| 2025-05-10 00:01:26 +0200 | shr\ke | (~shrike@user/shrke:31298) shr\ke |
| 2025-05-10 00:03:14 +0200 | Guest48 | (~Guest48@104.156.111.174) |
| 2025-05-10 00:17:25 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 00:26:36 +0200 | <EvanR> | :t mzero |
| 2025-05-10 00:26:36 +0200 | <lambdabot> | MonadPlus m => m a |
| 2025-05-10 00:26:40 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-193-082.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-10 00:26:40 +0200 | <EvanR> | :t fail |
| 2025-05-10 00:26:41 +0200 | <lambdabot> | MonadFail m => String -> m a |
| 2025-05-10 00:26:58 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.23.248.100) |
| 2025-05-10 00:27:00 +0200 | <EvanR> | too bad good nails are taken |
| 2025-05-10 00:27:02 +0200 | <EvanR> | names |
| 2025-05-10 00:27:36 +0200 | eron | (~eron@179.118.250.144) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-05-10 00:28:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-10 00:29:54 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2025-05-10 00:30:00 +0200 | <monochrom> | Consider "flouder". >:) |
| 2025-05-10 00:30:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | err, flounder! |
| 2025-05-10 00:31:06 +0200 | monochrom | 's spelling skill flounders. |
| 2025-05-10 00:31:59 +0200 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-10 00:32:13 +0200 | <monochrom> | I learned that word very recently from the Curry language. |
| 2025-05-10 00:32:22 +0200 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 2025-05-10 00:33:03 +0200 | <EvanR> | flounder, sebastian, scuttle, flotsam, jetsam |
| 2025-05-10 00:35:38 +0200 | manwithluck | (~manwithlu@2a09:bac1:5b80:20::49:f6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-10 00:36:03 +0200 | manwithluck | (~manwithlu@2a09:bac1:5b80:20::49:f6) manwithluck |
| 2025-05-10 00:38:35 +0200 | poscat0x04 | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 00:39:05 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
| 2025-05-10 00:41:21 +0200 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) poscat |
| 2025-05-10 00:41:45 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 00:42:08 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2025-05-10 00:52:12 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | I want to write the function "toFunc :: [Either () ()] -> Func a b" where "toFunc (Left () : rest) = Fst "Seq" toFunc rest" and the analogue for "Right ()". My "Func" datatype is something like "data Func a b where Fst :: Func (a, b) a; Snd :: Func (a, b) b; Id Func a a". Obviously this doesn't type, but I'm a bit stuck on what the right approach is for the issue. Instead of "[Either () ()]" I think I could have a type-level "path" and then use TH to... |
| 2025-05-10 00:52:18 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | ... generate all the different versions of "toFunc" I might need, but I was hoping there's a better/more elegant way. |
| 2025-05-10 00:53:06 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Err, forgot the constructor "Seq :: Func a b -> Func b c -> Func a c". |
| 2025-05-10 00:55:20 +0200 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 00:56:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | in toFunc :: [Either () ()] -> Func a b where do you think it's going to get an a or a b from |
| 2025-05-10 00:59:12 +0200 | <geekosaur> | also I note that `Either () ()` is a funny-looking `Bool` |
| 2025-05-10 01:00:02 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | I know that's the issue. And you can connect a b to the input "path" using a Path data type along with DataKinds, but then I can no longer have lists of heterogeneous paths, which I also need. |
| 2025-05-10 01:00:20 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | I used "Either () ()" because "[Left (), Right (), Left(), ...]" etc looks more like a path. :) |
| 2025-05-10 01:04:35 +0200 | <EvanR> | needs more GADT |
| 2025-05-10 01:05:06 +0200 | <EvanR> | the path itself can contain the right types |
| 2025-05-10 01:05:52 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | I tried that too! I.e., I did something like "data Path a b where PEnd :: Path a a; PLeft :: Path a b -> Path (a, c) b; ...". |
| 2025-05-10 01:06:29 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | And that works for "toFunc", but it breaks my "can no longer have lists of heterogeneous paths" requirement. I.e., I also need something like "[Path a b]" where "a" and "b" vary in the list. |
| 2025-05-10 01:07:13 +0200 | <EvanR> | the Path needs more types |
| 2025-05-10 01:07:16 +0200 | <geekosaur> | you can't have that anyway unless you use an HList |
| 2025-05-10 01:07:17 +0200 | <EvanR> | like a whole list |
| 2025-05-10 01:08:01 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Yeah, but every HList is type-leve distinct distinct from every other HList with differently typed elements at each position, right? I.e., aren't HLists just isomorphic to tuples? |
| 2025-05-10 01:08:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | no, no |
| 2025-05-10 01:08:39 +0200 | <EvanR> | two hlists with matching type lists are compatible |
| 2025-05-10 01:08:41 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | This issue is coming up because I'm essentially matching variables in a llittle DSL to arbitrary projection functions. So I have a mapping from variables to paths. So I need to be able to have that mapping AND also convert the paths into the functions, as above. |
| 2025-05-10 01:08:49 +0200 | ZLima12 | (~zlima12@user/meow/ZLima12) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-10 01:09:10 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Yeah, matching type lists. But the hlists ["foo", 5] and [1, "blah"] are typewise distinct, right? |
| 2025-05-10 01:09:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | nested tuples would work if you try really hard but it's better to write your own or use HList |
| 2025-05-10 01:09:34 +0200 | <EvanR> | yes those are differently typed |
| 2025-05-10 01:09:58 +0200 | ZLima12 | (~zlima12@user/meow/ZLima12) ZLima12 |
| 2025-05-10 01:10:17 +0200 | <EvanR> | which is good |
| 2025-05-10 01:10:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | a bogus path would not be accepted |
| 2025-05-10 01:10:39 +0200 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-05-10 01:10:44 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | I'm going to have some translation monad with an variable environment like "Reader [(Var, Path a b)]". So I need one type that goes in there, for arbitrary paths. |
| 2025-05-10 01:11:08 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | (i.e, "Path a b" definitely doesn't work) |
| 2025-05-10 01:11:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | what do the a and b even mean there |
| 2025-05-10 01:11:40 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Yeah, nothing. I know it doesn't make sense when I write it like that, just trying to communicate the issue. |
| 2025-05-10 01:12:21 +0200 | <EvanR> | if you want a "collection" of arbitrary paths, it's possible to encapsulated it with operations that work on any path, then hide the type list variable somehow |
| 2025-05-10 01:12:22 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | I need an environment of arbitrary paths and from those arbitrary paths I must be able to recover arbitrary compositions of projections. |
| 2025-05-10 01:12:38 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Like some existential type thing? |
| 2025-05-10 01:12:49 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | But I also have to actually recover the type in the end =/ |
| 2025-05-10 01:13:06 +0200 | <EvanR> | to have a collection do anything you need a uniform interface that works for any path |
| 2025-05-10 01:13:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | in which case no you don't |
| 2025-05-10 01:13:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | you just recover whatever the of all this is, in the end |
| 2025-05-10 01:13:26 +0200 | <EvanR> | whatever point is |
| 2025-05-10 01:13:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | types don't exist at runtime anyway |
| 2025-05-10 01:13:54 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | The point is to parse into my little "Func a b" DSL. And "Func a b" is parameterized by the inputs and outputs. |
| 2025-05-10 01:14:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | so that's what a and b are |
| 2025-05-10 01:15:07 +0200 | <EvanR> | if the output is Func a b, then you don't need to know all the intermediate types in the end |
| 2025-05-10 01:16:12 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | But there's no way to determine "a" and "b" without those intermediate types, as far as I can tell. |
| 2025-05-10 01:16:41 +0200 | <EvanR> | note that existential is (maybe not a great) one way to get this "uniform interface among the various elements of a collection" to work, but there are other ways, like type classes is another, but the point is they're all trying to do some uniform thing on a bunch of things that support that interface |
| 2025-05-10 01:16:49 +0200 | <EvanR> | oh |
| 2025-05-10 01:16:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | a and b are unknown? |
| 2025-05-10 01:17:06 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | a and b are determined by the projection mapping, in this case. |
| 2025-05-10 01:17:46 +0200 | <EvanR> | in snd :: (a,b) -> b, they're known |
| 2025-05-10 01:17:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | or chosen by you |
| 2025-05-10 01:17:58 +0200 | Guest48 | (~Guest48@104.156.111.174) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-05-10 01:18:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | if you're parsing a program, I can see how the type of the program may not be known |
| 2025-05-10 01:18:39 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 01:18:40 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Here's an example. Env = [("x", [Left (), Right (), Left ()])]. Now you want to convert the program "Var "x"" into a "Func a b". So you look up ""x"" in the env, and get its path, which corresponds to the "Func" program "Fst "Seq"Snd"Seq" Fst :: Func ((a,(b, c)), d) b". |
| 2025-05-10 01:19:15 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | So the path completely determines the type of "Func". |
| 2025-05-10 01:19:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | an environment with a bunch of typed things is a classic GADT exercise |
| 2025-05-10 01:19:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | which doesn't involve a tree |
| 2025-05-10 01:20:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | you can do it usually with a straight list |
| 2025-05-10 01:20:24 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | I don't see what the environment should look like, though, because every variable can have a different path---how can I have a mapping of elements of different types? |
| 2025-05-10 01:21:09 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Either you make them all typewise identical, in which case you throw away the required information to convert the path to a "Func". Or you make them typewise different, in which case you can convert to a "Func" but now you can't place them all in the same mapping. |
| 2025-05-10 01:21:10 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2025-05-10 01:21:17 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Do you see the issue? |
| 2025-05-10 01:21:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | no because I keep thinking of context (or environment) as a mapping of names to types (or values) |
| 2025-05-10 01:21:49 +0200 | <EvanR> | not paths |
| 2025-05-10 01:22:07 +0200 | <EvanR> | which doesn't have to be a tree |
| 2025-05-10 01:22:45 +0200 | <EvanR> | each time something is added to the context it just gets prepended |
| 2025-05-10 01:22:51 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | What type would such a mapping have? |
| 2025-05-10 01:22:53 +0200 | jespada_ | (~jespada@r167-61-136-127.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2025-05-10 01:23:20 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 01:24:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | a GADT parameterized by a type level list of the types in each component 2 of each pair |
| 2025-05-10 01:24:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | component 1 being the name |
| 2025-05-10 01:24:37 +0200 | <EvanR> | or if the names at type level, type level list of type level tuples |
| 2025-05-10 01:24:46 +0200 | <EvanR> | something like that! |
| 2025-05-10 01:25:27 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Something like "data MapElem String (ts :: TypeList) where ...."? |
| 2025-05-10 01:26:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | no |
| 2025-05-10 01:28:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | try this narrative... defining Ctx _, well figure out the _ later. Nil is a Ctx [], the empty context. Also, if c is a Ctx ts and name is a string which goes to type t, then Cons name c is a Ctx (t:ts) |
| 2025-05-10 01:29:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | that's a context but doesn't have the names at type level, and _ is (type level) list of types |
| 2025-05-10 01:30:06 +0200 | todi | (~todi@p57803331.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) todi |
| 2025-05-10 01:32:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | Cons "z" (Cons "y" (Cons "x" Nil)) would be a Ctx [Char, Int, Bool] for example |
| 2025-05-10 01:32:43 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Just have to wrestle my head around it for a sec. |
| 2025-05-10 01:33:50 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f03cc4d8db2fb428aa9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 01:34:03 +0200 | <EvanR> | for whatever reason you might need the include the names in the list, paired with the type, which then you might be able to use a tuple, or because you're going to do type class shenanigans for computation, define a pair-like type for that |
| 2025-05-10 01:37:09 +0200 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f4c5600f9fedd9f4ccf13a5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-05-10 01:42:52 +0200 | nitrix | (~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 01:46:33 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | EvanR: So this, basically: https://gist.github.com/zfnmxt/fc11f78c64651d1ab19a41f3d5a9f2a8 |
| 2025-05-10 01:47:01 +0200 | ttybitnik | (~ttybitnik@user/wolper) (Quit: Fading out...) |
| 2025-05-10 01:47:45 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | And then my monad will just be a "Reader Ctx" and hopefully everything should work out 🙃 |
| 2025-05-10 01:49:19 +0200 | <EvanR> | that looks cromulent |
| 2025-05-10 01:49:50 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Okay, I think I get the approach now. Thanks so much for your help! |
| 2025-05-10 01:50:02 +0200 | <EvanR> | for your next exercise define a thing which says ("x", t) is an element of some ctx ts |
| 2025-05-10 01:50:07 +0200 | <EvanR> | that works |
| 2025-05-10 01:50:16 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Okdoke. |
| 2025-05-10 01:50:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 2025-05-10 01:50:41 +0200 | <EvanR> | (not to mention the computation which decides if this is true or not) |
| 2025-05-10 01:51:07 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | As an aside, are there any good papers to read on typelits/proxy/etc? |
| 2025-05-10 01:51:27 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | (Specifically in regards to Haskell, not dependent typing in general.) |
| 2025-05-10 01:51:48 +0200 | <EvanR> | probably oleg's website |
| 2025-05-10 01:52:06 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | https://okmij.org/ftp/ this? |
| 2025-05-10 01:52:40 +0200 | <EvanR> | yeah |
| 2025-05-10 01:59:49 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Alright, implemented "ctxElem :: String -> Ctx ts -> Bool". I guess a "find" will have to be a type family if I want the actual type, right? |
| 2025-05-10 02:05:22 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 02:06:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | or a type class |
| 2025-05-10 02:07:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | or yet another GADT to express the element of relation |
| 2025-05-10 02:08:11 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-10 02:09:45 +0200 | <zfnmxt> | Right right. okay, will do. Thanks again! |
| 2025-05-10 02:18:57 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 02:19:27 +0200 | nitrix | (~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix) nitrix |
| 2025-05-10 02:24:05 +0200 | tremon | (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in) |
| 2025-05-10 02:24:59 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.23.248.100) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 02:25:50 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2025-05-10 02:28:49 +0200 | sajenim | (~sajenim@user/sajenim) sajenim |
| 2025-05-10 02:38:44 +0200 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 02:39:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 02:40:44 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2025-05-10 02:50:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-10 02:53:53 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-05-10 02:56:04 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 03:06:37 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-10 03:08:20 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-10 03:08:33 +0200 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-05-10 03:09:03 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
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| 2025-05-10 03:11:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 03:11:49 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2025-05-10 03:15:39 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-10 03:16:02 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2025-05-10 03:22:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-10 03:26:39 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-10 03:27:01 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
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| 2025-05-10 03:53:31 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
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| 2025-05-10 03:54:52 +0200 | img | (~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-05-10 03:56:17 +0200 | img | (~img@user/img) img |
| 2025-05-10 04:02:46 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) HarveyPwca |
| 2025-05-10 04:09:52 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
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| 2025-05-10 04:22:18 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870903.versanet.de) td_ |
| 2025-05-10 04:22:28 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex |
| 2025-05-10 04:26:25 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
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| 2025-05-10 04:43:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 04:46:37 +0200 | ft | (~ft@p4fc2a6e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 04:47:23 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-10 04:48:36 +0200 | ft | (~ft@p3e9bc106.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft |
| 2025-05-10 04:51:43 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-05-10 04:54:31 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-10 04:54:34 +0200 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 05:09:07 +0200 | nitrix | (~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-10 05:48:43 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:6a78:8b93:a1e2:8e69) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 06:01:21 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-10 06:06:30 +0200 | nitrix | (~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix) nitrix |