2025-03-25 00:01:30 +0100 | sord937 | (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937) |
2025-03-25 00:03:30 +0100 | iteratee | (~kyle@199.119.84.78) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:04:14 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:05:48 +0100 | iteratee | (~kyle@199.119.84.78) iteratee |
2025-03-25 00:07:12 +0100 | polyphem | (~rod@p4fc2c5d1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:08:44 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e1c2:84b0:caab:9b02) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:08:44 +0100 | <EvanR> | looks like building mueval is going to be fun |
2025-03-25 00:11:18 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
2025-03-25 00:12:47 +0100 | <EvanR> | it builds fine in isolation |
2025-03-25 00:12:49 +0100 | sarna | (~sarna@d168-237.icpnet.pl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:14:37 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 00:15:33 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:17:38 +0100 | szkl | (uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) szkl |
2025-03-25 00:18:31 +0100 | <int-e> | EvanR: https://github.com/TerenceNg03/mueval/issues/27 may be relevant |
2025-03-25 00:19:09 +0100 | <int-e> | I've *always* patched mueval for lambdabot because it hard-codes a -static link flag and that causes it to be way slower than the dynamic way |
2025-03-25 00:19:34 +0100 | <EvanR> | thx |
2025-03-25 00:19:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:20:53 +0100 | <int-e> | apart from that lambdabot should be fine with ghc-9.10 as released; ghc-9.12 looked out of reach two months ago (too many dependencies broke for me to try to get it to work) |
2025-03-25 00:25:45 +0100 | <EvanR> | and it needs an environment file |
2025-03-25 00:26:18 +0100 | <EvanR> | I'm on GHC 9.6 |
2025-03-25 00:28:09 +0100 | <mauke> | monochrom++ # continuations and stuff |
2025-03-25 00:30:25 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 00:30:34 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
2025-03-25 00:31:36 +0100 | <Axman6> | monochrom (\r -> r+1) |
2025-03-25 00:32:05 +0100 | <mauke> | .oO( monochrom succ ) |
2025-03-25 00:33:13 +0100 | <Axman6> | so rude |
2025-03-25 00:35:25 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:37:59 +0100 | <Axman6> | monochrom (negate . pred . negate) |
2025-03-25 00:38:27 +0100 | <EvanR> | the issues tracker mentions creating a GHC environment file by making a dummy cabal project, listing the needed packages in the build-depends, then running cabal new-build "will create the GHC env file" |
2025-03-25 00:38:32 +0100 | <EvanR> | but I see no such file anywhere |
2025-03-25 00:40:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | or is none of this necessary if you fix the -static thing |
2025-03-25 00:40:43 +0100 | <geekosaur> | cabal (new-)build hasn't done that for a long time, I think; you need to use --package-env=… |
2025-03-25 00:44:09 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:46:12 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 00:46:25 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
2025-03-25 00:49:15 +0100 | <EvanR> | cabal build --write-ghc-environment-files=always |
2025-03-25 00:49:41 +0100 | iteratee_ | (~kyle@199.119.84.78) |
2025-03-25 00:50:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:52:45 +0100 | <EvanR> | noice... an at least half functional mueval binary |
2025-03-25 00:52:54 +0100 | iteratee | (~kyle@199.119.84.78) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
2025-03-25 00:56:42 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
2025-03-25 00:57:45 +0100 | <EvanR> | That explains how lambdabot can evaluate expressions, but how does it infer the types |
2025-03-25 00:57:57 +0100 | <EvanR> | with the :t command |
2025-03-25 00:58:06 +0100 | <int-e> | it uses ghci for that |
2025-03-25 01:00:47 +0100 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f03d500a58d694121a6d0cd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
2025-03-25 01:01:24 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-03-25 01:01:33 +0100 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
2025-03-25 01:01:59 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 01:07:14 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-03-25 01:13:51 +0100 | inca | (~inca@4-138-135-64.gray-ng.dsl.pinetreenetworks.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-03-25 01:14:02 +0100 | <EvanR> | it seems --load-file and GHC_ENVIRONMENT= don't work together, throwing a GhcException "Package environment \".ghc.environment.x86_64-linux-9.6.3\" (specified in GHC_ENVIRONMENT) not found" |
2025-03-25 01:14:24 +0100 | infinity0 | (~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-03-25 01:15:22 +0100 | inca | (~inca@4-138-135-64.gray-ng.dsl.pinetreenetworks.com) |
2025-03-25 01:16:27 +0100 | <EvanR> | and apparently isnt required anymore anyway... |
2025-03-25 01:17:45 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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2025-03-25 01:22:09 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
2025-03-25 01:24:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
2025-03-25 01:24:59 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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2025-03-25 01:30:36 +0100 | PotatoGim | (sid99505@lymington.irccloud.com) PotatoGim |
2025-03-25 01:32:43 +0100 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
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2025-03-25 02:00:58 +0100 | dsrt^ | (~dsrt@c-71-199-187-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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2025-03-25 02:47:01 +0100 | szkl | (uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
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2025-03-25 03:15:30 +0100 | emergence | (emergence@vm0.max-p.me) (Quit: emergence) |
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2025-03-25 03:23:34 +0100 | emergence | (thelounge@vm0.max-p.me) emergence |
2025-03-25 03:23:58 +0100 | zlqrvx | (~zlqrvx@101.175.150.247) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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2025-03-25 03:35:56 +0100 | emergence | (thelounge@vm0.max-p.me) (Quit: emergence) |
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2025-03-25 03:43:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 03:45:23 +0100 | tavare | (~tavare@user/tavare) tavare |
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2025-03-25 03:51:03 +0100 | Aspen55 | (~Aspen@2a09:bac2:a7f2:1800::264:bb) (Quit: Client closed) |
2025-03-25 03:58:13 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> have we gone over this yet? |
2025-03-25 03:58:14 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&f=axum,actix,servant&l=haskell&metric=to… |
2025-03-25 03:59:43 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 03:59:46 +0100 | kh0d | (~kh0d@212.200.247.164) kh0d |
2025-03-25 04:00:04 +0100 | glguy | (glguy@libera/staff/glguy) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
2025-03-25 04:00:59 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
2025-03-25 04:01:36 +0100 | glguy | (glguy@libera/staff/glguy) glguy |
2025-03-25 04:02:42 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the surprising part is that scotty is beating axum and actix at low scales, when scotty isn't known for its performance |
2025-03-25 04:04:27 +0100 | kh0d | (~kh0d@212.200.247.164) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
2025-03-25 04:04:27 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
2025-03-25 04:05:01 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-03-25 04:05:11 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
2025-03-25 04:05:27 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex |
2025-03-25 04:09:37 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> I’d expect servant and Scotty to be the same since they’re both basically warp. A 5x diff is sus |
2025-03-25 04:15:31 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 04:18:07 +0100 | kh0d | (~kh0d@212.200.247.164) kh0d |
2025-03-25 04:20:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-03-25 04:28:50 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> yeah. tbh, full disclosure, both get beaten by ookami and microhttp |
2025-03-25 04:29:12 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but generally a high performance haskell library should be able to reach 50% of rust, which is just saying web frameworks need love |
2025-03-25 04:31:17 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 04:36:36 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
2025-03-25 04:36:36 +0100 | werneta | (~werneta@syn-071-083-160-242.res.spectrum.com) werneta |
2025-03-25 04:38:23 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
2025-03-25 04:40:21 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> We can just FFI into the fastest C web server |
2025-03-25 04:41:48 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> And use bytestring builder, with some light staging |
2025-03-25 04:42:06 +0100 | <monochrom> | It would also be most buggy. |
2025-03-25 04:43:29 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> I don’t buy that. C still runs the world |
2025-03-25 04:44:22 +0100 | <monochrom> | But do you buy: The glue code you write for FFI adds one more opportunity for bugs? |
2025-03-25 04:44:50 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> Where are all the rust network stacks. TCP/IP is the global highway of information and it’s predominantly in C |
2025-03-25 04:44:50 +0100 | <monochrom> | IMO that's even more buggy than plain C. |
2025-03-25 04:45:17 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> Rust is trying to make its way into the kernel with great difficulty |
2025-03-25 04:46:23 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
2025-03-25 04:48:36 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> It’s too pervasive. Like cobol it’s never going away |
2025-03-25 04:49:20 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 04:50:30 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
2025-03-25 04:52:37 +0100 | Square2 | (~Square4@user/square) Square |
2025-03-25 04:54:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
2025-03-25 04:54:19 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> monochrom do you buy there is an inverse correlation between the most used software and the most correct software |
2025-03-25 04:55:48 +0100 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
2025-03-25 04:55:55 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> why does it have to be linear |
2025-03-25 04:55:59 +0100 | <monochrom> | Sure. |
2025-03-25 05:05:08 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 05:06:20 +0100 | <Axman6> | Well, when first looking at that benchmark, the Servant implementation uses String everywhere... |
2025-03-25 05:07:20 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> Until you can make writing Lean as easy and as familiar as JavaScript, I don’t see the situation changing any time soon. |
2025-03-25 05:07:22 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | I am optimistic about Zig though. You have to keep the foot gun accesible. |
2025-03-25 05:07:33 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> Axman6: Someone is sand baggin’ us |
2025-03-25 05:08:19 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> Zig embodies the Berkeley school philosophy which is why it will continue to succeed. |
2025-03-25 05:09:46 +0100 | <Axman6> | Looking at what the servers actually do, I would be surprised if there's heaps of overhead from using String, but there could be some. Changing it to Text should reduce conversions though |
2025-03-25 05:09:53 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
2025-03-25 05:11:54 +0100 | <monochrom> | Oh Lean will never be as easy as C. Even Haskell will never be. |
2025-03-25 05:12:25 +0100 | <monochrom> | Haskell or similar languages can be a sweet spot of not too many bugs and not too slow. |
2025-03-25 05:14:07 +0100 | <monochrom> | But we don't even need that for the inverse correlation between most used and most correct, no? Social media has also shown us the inverse correlation between most believed and most correct. Like we need to rationalize that. |
2025-03-25 05:20:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 05:25:18 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also re dmjio: it's possible servant breaks the specialization in warp, but i'm not really familiar with warp in terms of its type architecture |
2025-03-25 05:27:08 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
2025-03-25 05:28:34 +0100 | kh0d | (~kh0d@212.200.247.164) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-03-25 05:31:47 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
2025-03-25 05:32:19 +0100 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:c43:fe75:997:32d7) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
2025-03-25 05:36:01 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> Liamzee: It wouldn’t surprise me at all if HasServer dictionaries weren’t getting specialized given the incremental compilation nature of GHC and cross module inlining limitations. But 5x still sounds heavy. |
2025-03-25 05:36:29 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> monochrom: That’s fair. |
2025-03-25 05:36:38 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
2025-03-25 05:37:43 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 05:42:40 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
2025-03-25 05:44:36 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
2025-03-25 05:44:56 +0100 | aforemny_ | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cde:a00:bd3b:75a2:c3bc:65be) aforemny |
2025-03-25 05:45:48 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
2025-03-25 05:46:42 +0100 | aforemny | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cc3:cb00:4bbe:2838:488d:a24d) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
2025-03-25 05:51:02 +0100 | <davean> | dmjio that is also a lot of parsing via a lot of type level implied machinery |
2025-03-25 05:52:38 +0100 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: WeeChat 4.5.2) |
2025-03-25 05:53:08 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> The biggest upfront cost is the first request. The graph reduces and subsequent requests do less work |
2025-03-25 05:53:29 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 05:57:34 +0100 | kh0d | (~kh0d@212.200.247.164) kh0d |
2025-03-25 05:57:46 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> Parsing shouldn’t be any different. Servant handlers operate on an already parsed request, much like Scotty |
2025-03-25 05:58:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-03-25 06:00:58 +0100 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.197) |
2025-03-25 06:03:46 +0100 | inca | (~inca@4-138-135-64.gray-ng.dsl.pinetreenetworks.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
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2025-03-25 06:04:16 +0100 | cross | (~cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
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2025-03-25 07:54:08 +0100 | ThePenguin9 | (~ThePengui@cust-95-80-24-166.csbnet.se) ThePenguin |
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2025-03-25 07:54:30 +0100 | ThePenguin9 | ThePenguin |
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2025-03-25 07:59:18 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-03-25 08:00:02 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
2025-03-25 08:01:01 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
2025-03-25 08:03:12 +0100 | random-jellyfish | (~developer@85.50.149.196) random-jellyfish |
2025-03-25 08:03:12 +0100 | random-jellyfish | (~developer@85.50.149.196) (Changing host) |
2025-03-25 08:03:12 +0100 | random-jellyfish | (~developer@user/random-jellyfish) random-jellyfish |
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2025-03-25 08:14:56 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
2025-03-25 08:15:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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2025-03-25 08:16:19 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
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2025-03-25 10:53:09 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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2025-03-25 10:53:38 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex |
2025-03-25 10:53:51 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
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2025-03-25 10:58:57 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
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2025-03-25 11:27:03 +0100 | cipherrot | (~znc-user@user/petrichor) petrichor |
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2025-03-25 11:49:00 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org)) |
2025-03-25 11:49:02 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@130.233.70.95) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
2025-03-25 11:49:07 +0100 | FragByte | (~christian@user/fragbyte) (Quit: Quit) |
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2025-03-25 11:51:02 +0100 | FragByte | (~christian@user/fragbyte) FragByte |
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2025-03-25 12:16:52 +0100 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
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2025-03-25 12:44:19 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
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2025-03-25 12:50:24 +0100 | kh0d | (~kh0d@212.200.247.164) kh0d |
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2025-03-25 12:56:49 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
2025-03-25 12:57:02 +0100 | <[exa]> | gah, is there some easily rememberable rule of thumb for monad transformer order? I.e., how to instinctively know whether one wants `StateT s Parser` or `ParserT (State s)` |
2025-03-25 12:57:16 +0100 | <[exa]> | I always have to look at the implementation to just be sure |
2025-03-25 12:59:59 +0100 | pdw | (~user@215.156.62.185.bridgefibre.net) pdw |
2025-03-25 13:04:24 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | @unmtl |
2025-03-25 13:04:24 +0100 | <lambdabot> | err: Parse error: ; |
2025-03-25 13:05:26 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
2025-03-25 13:06:29 +0100 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: yeah that's what I kinda do in head and want to have a shortcut around it |
2025-03-25 13:07:16 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | it's still doing the same thing in the end, but you can think about the eliminator functions: if you have a StateT s Parser, then you'll runStateT and get something in the Parser monad |
2025-03-25 13:07:27 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | whereas if you have a ParserT (State s), you'll run the parser and get something in the state monad back |
2025-03-25 13:07:46 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | this indirectly tells you what the actual semantics of your stack is |
2025-03-25 13:08:01 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | without having to look at the precise implementation of the monad data types |
2025-03-25 13:09:04 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | this is most clear with State and Except -- with StateT s (Except e), you run the state monad and then get an Except out, i.e. you get a state irrespective of whether there was an exception |
2025-03-25 13:09:28 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | with ExceptT e (State s), you run the ExceptT to _maybe_ get a State out |
2025-03-25 13:09:40 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | @unmtl ExceptT e (State s) |
2025-03-25 13:09:40 +0100 | <lambdabot> | err: `ExceptT e (State s)' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. s -> (Either e A, s)' |
2025-03-25 13:09:42 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | @unmtl ExceptT e (State s) a |
2025-03-25 13:09:42 +0100 | <lambdabot> | s -> (Either e a, s) |
2025-03-25 13:09:48 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | I'm wrong |
2025-03-25 13:09:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | disregard all that I say |
2025-03-25 13:09:54 +0100 | kh0d | (~kh0d@212.200.247.164) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-03-25 13:09:57 +0100 | <[exa]> | you see, it's friggin confusing |
2025-03-25 13:09:59 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-03-25 13:10:03 +0100 | tomsmeding | hides in a corner |
2025-03-25 13:10:28 +0100 | <[exa]> | technically you were right but it just does the other thing |
2025-03-25 13:10:32 +0100 | <[exa]> | I think |
2025-03-25 13:10:43 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | there's a trick I found out a while ago: if you're okay with accessing your monad through mtl classes, then you can use DerivingVia to document what you're doing |
2025-03-25 13:11:13 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | newtype M a = M (s -> (Either e a, s)) deriving (Functor, Applicative, Monad, MonadState s, MonadExcept e) via (ExceptT e (State s) a) |
2025-03-25 13:11:55 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | you don't have to write the methods, but you also get compiler-checked documentation of wtf your monad is actually doing (namely, that type inside the M) |
2025-03-25 13:12:38 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | if you don't need the mtl methods, then honestly just write out the monad manually, using transformers just makes the thing more opaque |
2025-03-25 13:13:02 +0100 | <[exa]> | yeah I see |
2025-03-25 13:13:39 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: right, the correct version was: if you have a `MT N a`, then the first eliminator goes `MT N a -> N (M a)` |
2025-03-25 13:14:02 +0100 | <[exa]> | that's ok |
2025-03-25 13:15:53 +0100 | <[exa]> | kinda trying to find the trick that tells the students if the State will get reset by Parser or not. in this case I guess N(M a) says kinda "N dominates M" so the M will get reset if e.g. N backtracks... and now I hope that's right. |
2025-03-25 13:16:31 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | it's rather important whether it's `N (M a)` or `NT M a` |
2025-03-25 13:16:38 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | they behave differently |
2025-03-25 13:16:55 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | case in point: |
2025-03-25 13:16:57 +0100 | kh0d | (~kh0d@212.200.247.164) |
2025-03-25 13:17:02 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | @unmtl ExceptT e (State s) a |
2025-03-25 13:17:02 +0100 | <lambdabot> | s -> (Either e a, s) |
2025-03-25 13:17:08 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | this looks a lot like State s (Either e a) |
2025-03-25 13:18:11 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | I can't help you, sorry |
2025-03-25 13:18:17 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@130.233.70.95) fp |
2025-03-25 13:19:50 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
2025-03-25 13:22:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | I'm crippled because the first thing I read about monads was on wikipedia where it stated "writing monad definitions directly is difficult" |
2025-03-25 13:22:23 +0100 | <EvanR> | so now it's difficult forever and I have to rely on transformers xD |
2025-03-25 13:22:30 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | it's the only thing that's actually understandable |
2025-03-25 13:22:33 +0100 | <int-e> | @src forever |
2025-03-25 13:22:33 +0100 | <lambdabot> | forever a = let a' = a >> a' in a' |
2025-03-25 13:22:55 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: reinvent all the monads, dig yourself deep into NIH and rewrite all the basic monads |
2025-03-25 13:22:59 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | then you'll understand monads |
2025-03-25 13:23:12 +0100 | <EvanR> | I can write the individual rogues gallery of monads |
2025-03-25 13:23:32 +0100 | <int-e> | EvanR: May I suggest a dose of "You Could Have Invented Monads (And Maybe You Already Have)"? |
2025-03-25 13:23:41 +0100 | <EvanR> | but combining them to get what a combination of transformers would produce |
2025-03-25 13:24:18 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | the trick is to understand why the individual monad implementations do what they do, e.g. why `s -> (a, s)` makes _sense_ as a state monad |