| 2025-03-17 00:04:22 +0100 | <jackdk> | I think he means things like https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Style-of-Change-Logs |
| 2025-03-17 00:09:26 +0100 | <mauke> | as usual with gnu, that "standard" is nuts |
| 2025-03-17 00:10:30 +0100 | <mauke> | and (in practical terms) useless as a changes file |
| 2025-03-17 00:11:59 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2025-03-17 00:14:28 +0100 | <davean> | mauke: the other one is https://keepachangelog.com/en/1.1.0/ but usually https://common-changelog.org/ which is what most tools process |
| 2025-03-17 00:14:35 +0100 | <davean> | As I said I dobut anyone does the GNU one. |
| 2025-03-17 00:14:38 +0100 | <davean> | It is infact dumb |
| 2025-03-17 00:15:26 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) MyNetAz |
| 2025-03-17 00:23:35 +0100 | <mauke> | only one of those specifies a format, and it is incompatible with hackage |
| 2025-03-17 00:24:36 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-17 00:28:54 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 00:32:36 +0100 | <juri_> | there's also a debian changelog specification, for package changelogs. |
| 2025-03-17 00:36:47 +0100 | <davean> | Oh from memory I thought that was a specification of the GNU one |
| 2025-03-17 00:41:10 +0100 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 00:43:51 +0100 | SoF | (~skius@user/skius) skius |
| 2025-03-17 00:46:42 +0100 | <juri_> | it's a bit more specialized. https://manpages.debian.org/testing/dpkg-dev/deb-changelog.5.en.html |
| 2025-03-17 01:01:39 +0100 | SoF | (~skius@user/skius) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2025-03-17 01:07:44 +0100 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4b74-b88c-ff83-9891-e272.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-03-17 01:10:20 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-17 01:12:58 +0100 | SoF | (~skius@user/skius) skius |
| 2025-03-17 01:15:08 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 01:24:33 +0100 | infinity0 | (~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 01:26:16 +0100 | tabaqui | (~tabaqui@167.71.80.236) tabaqui |
| 2025-03-17 01:27:33 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f06309b9617c0b564b2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 01:28:41 +0100 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f093b001519da6143e769d5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-03-17 01:30:34 +0100 | xatirig | (~xatirig@81.215.239.1) (Quit: xatirig) |
| 2025-03-17 01:33:51 +0100 | werneta | (~werneta@syn-071-083-160-242.res.spectrum.com) werneta |
| 2025-03-17 01:41:03 +0100 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2025-03-17 01:44:33 +0100 | infinity0 | (~infinity0@pwned.gg) infinity0 |
| 2025-03-17 01:48:14 +0100 | fris | (sid7259@id-7259.helmsley.irccloud.com) fris |
| 2025-03-17 01:56:04 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-17 01:57:55 +0100 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) ezzieyguywuf |
| 2025-03-17 02:00:11 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 02:00:37 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:3552:f799:4331:aaa8) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 02:02:29 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2025-03-17 02:24:12 +0100 | ftzm7 | (~ftzm@085081035209.dynamic.telenor.dk) ftzm |
| 2025-03-17 02:26:10 +0100 | ftzm | (~ftzm@085081056141.dynamic.telenor.dk) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 02:26:10 +0100 | ftzm7 | ftzm |
| 2025-03-17 02:42:08 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-17 02:42:09 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-03-17 02:46:58 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 02:48:26 +0100 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-03-17 02:49:01 +0100 | myxos | (~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com) myxokephale |
| 2025-03-17 02:49:09 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) MyNetAz |
| 2025-03-17 02:49:20 +0100 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 02:50:23 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 02:56:09 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2025-03-17 03:02:56 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> has anyone tried writing Haskell in braces before, besides SPJ? |
| 2025-03-17 03:04:49 +0100 | mange | (~user@user/mange) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 03:08:20 +0100 | mange | (~user@user/mange) mange |
| 2025-03-17 03:08:46 +0100 | bilegeek | (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b041:b61:4489:3f6f:340a:78f6) bilegeek |
| 2025-03-17 03:17:32 +0100 | euandreh | (~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 03:18:54 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2025-03-17 03:19:25 +0100 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-03-17 03:21:06 +0100 | tremon | (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in) |
| 2025-03-17 03:22:27 +0100 | ljdarj1 | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2025-03-17 03:24:25 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> there's a point to it, since I like treating Haskell as a scripting language and non-idiomatic Haskell, if you're writing in braces you're implying you're being serious and actually caring about engineering quality. But then again, braces aren't that idiomatic either. |
| 2025-03-17 03:25:38 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 03:25:38 +0100 | ljdarj1 | ljdarj |
| 2025-03-17 03:27:53 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-17 03:27:53 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-03-17 03:29:34 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> Well braces automatically get inserted after the layout pass, so you might be saving the layout pass some work. |
| 2025-03-17 03:29:35 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | Now if you wanted to build your own Haskell compiler that only uses braces you could bypass the layout pass (and dreaded parse-error case) |
| 2025-03-17 03:31:39 +0100 | <monochrom> | I tried that, but that's only when my editor haskell mode was primitive and couldn't do good indentation without braces. |
| 2025-03-17 03:32:24 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 03:32:26 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> So, there's actually a pragmatic reason to use braces in Haskell, simply to make your code compile less than 1% faster. Got it. |
| 2025-03-17 03:32:43 +0100 | <monochrom> | I am talking about 20 years ago. |
| 2025-03-17 03:33:00 +0100 | <monochrom> | Today no editor has an issue. Come on this is 2025 already. |
| 2025-03-17 03:33:16 +0100 | <monochrom> | And with that, also out with "layout means script kiddies". |
| 2025-03-17 03:34:42 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the popularity of python for scientific programming shoots that one down anyway |
| 2025-03-17 03:34:53 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) MyNetAz |
| 2025-03-17 03:35:23 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> No, but braces are fully supported by GHC and the Haskell report. Optional braces can be used as a means of expressing... something. |
| 2025-03-17 03:36:15 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I mean, you could use braces to indicate prototyping, but that should slow down prototyping, no? But you could make an alternative argument that significant whitespace is idiomatic in Haskell, and stubbornly insisting on braces means you're doing improper Haskell for pragmatic reasons. |
| 2025-03-17 03:36:50 +0100 | <geekosaur> | or not so pragmatic |
| 2025-03-17 03:37:05 +0100 | <geekosaur> | imo they make code harder to read (sorry SPJ) |
| 2025-03-17 03:37:17 +0100 | <geekosaur> | although even SPJ doesn't use braces religiously |
| 2025-03-17 03:37:26 +0100 | <monochrom> | You're overthinking it. I quit. |
| 2025-03-17 03:38:31 +0100 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:8c4a:1bad:bb61:8f8d) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-03-17 03:38:49 +0100 | <monochrom> | "SPJ wears a blue shirt in his picture. There must be either a category theory reason or a software engineering reason!" |
| 2025-03-17 03:39:14 +0100 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 03:39:52 +0100 | <monochrom> | "blue shirt means blue collar right? but is software engineering blue collar? or is category theory blue collar? or is SPJ a burgeous middle class who pretends to befriend blue collars?" |
| 2025-03-17 03:40:20 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <dmjio> I think the braces were just to make the syntax context free, to make happy happy |
| 2025-03-17 03:40:22 +0100 | <int-e> | (it seems that monochrom knows a lot about overthinking) |
| 2025-03-17 03:40:35 +0100 | Guest23 | (~Guest23@2601:45:500:5c10:39d7:6224:4126:8f39) |
| 2025-03-17 03:40:36 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> No, I'm trying to build a prototype of an Upwork clone (major feature: having the lowest fees attached) in Haskell. One of the plans is to have a team that does prototyping as well as a team that does engineering. This would distinguish whether the code is intended to be kept or needs to be eventually rewritten. |
| 2025-03-17 03:42:14 +0100 | <int-e> | braces are also nice for lazy code generators... and I seem to recall an account that they have an accessibility benefit in connection with screen readers (which IIUC basically skip whitespace) |
| 2025-03-17 03:43:46 +0100 | <monochrom> | Yeah mechanical output of Haskell code is vastly simpler with {;}. |
| 2025-03-17 03:44:13 +0100 | <monochrom> | Although, I have only done the opposite: A Haskell program that outputs Java code. :) |
| 2025-03-17 03:48:31 +0100 | <monochrom> | I don't think you will have any luck enforcing a black-and-white divide between prototyping and production by any means except... The one single success story I ever heard was with entirely two different languages, matlab for prototyping and C++ for production. |
| 2025-03-17 03:48:50 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 03:49:21 +0100 | <EvanR> | haskell code fully braced and semicoloned out could indicate you didn't intend for anyone to actually read your code, in which case they could stop reading if they knew this convention, saving time, or if they just hate it |
| 2025-03-17 03:50:14 +0100 | <EvanR> | it has the advantage of naturally triggering the stop reading reflex without prior agreement |
| 2025-03-17 03:51:03 +0100 | <monochrom> | I am happy to read {;} code if it also uses layout (doesn't have to strictly follow Haskell layout rules) to help me. Like, I have been reading C like that all my life already. |
| 2025-03-17 03:51:12 +0100 | <EvanR> | the parsing stage that inserters semicolons and braces still has to run even if you put them |
| 2025-03-17 03:51:27 +0100 | <int-e> | { IRC does have that effect `on` people; } |
| 2025-03-17 03:51:28 +0100 | <EvanR> | so I don't know about the performance narrative there |
| 2025-03-17 03:54:33 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> well, thanks for the vote of approval, even if the procedure is different: prototype in braces, be serious in traditional layout |
| 2025-03-17 03:54:43 +0100 | <int-e> | you can't switch back to layout mode inside explicit braces |
| 2025-03-17 03:55:13 +0100 | <EvanR> | why is your bait so bad |
| 2025-03-17 03:55:32 +0100 | <int-e> | but the premise that layout has a noticable cost compared to all the other things that the compiler is doing is quite laughable |
| 2025-03-17 03:56:42 +0100 | <davean> | lol I find the idea of making prototype code visually distinct amusing |
| 2025-03-17 03:57:25 +0100 | <geekosaur> | unless you count the different-languages thing |
| 2025-03-17 03:57:29 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also, you're more likely to have juniors and people you trained be more used to braces, so it makes things easier for them to adjust to while simultaneously letting everyone know who wrote it |
| 2025-03-17 03:57:45 +0100 | <geekosaur> | (as I've mentioned before, I've done that oen as well: Prolog prototype, C production) |
| 2025-03-17 03:58:08 +0100 | <davean> | Liamzee: How many seconds can you honestly expect it to take for people to convert between braces and indentation style? |
| 2025-03-17 03:58:25 +0100 | <davean> | If it takes over 600 seconds to get comfortable with one from the other I'd be shocked. |
| 2025-03-17 03:58:41 +0100 | <davean> | I don't think it took me that long |
| 2025-03-17 03:58:43 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> 1, 5 if there's a CLI (I think there already is one) that does so automatically |
| 2025-03-17 03:59:52 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and yeah, there are non-haskellers who regularly exclaim their reason for hating Haskell is significant whitespace |
| 2025-03-17 04:00:49 +0100 | <geekosaur> | do they say the same about Python? about make? if not, I call BS |
| 2025-03-17 04:00:52 +0100 | <davean> | I didn't say I liked significant whitespace |
| 2025-03-17 04:00:56 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> yes, they did as well |
| 2025-03-17 04:01:19 +0100 | <int-e> | davean: wdym?! everybody loves significant whitespace!!!1eleven |
| 2025-03-17 04:01:45 +0100 | <davean> | I have very mixed feelings on significant whitespace. It sure isn't hard to move between though |
| 2025-03-17 04:02:36 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> anyways, conclusion: braces and semicolons can be used to mark code within a Haskell codebase, what braced code (use parens for pure functions) means is up to you |
| 2025-03-17 04:03:11 +0100 | <monochrom> | Economically, I would not hire people who spend time exclaiming things instead of getting things done. Like, are you hiring them for programming or are you hiring them for Fox News? |
| 2025-03-17 04:03:24 +0100 | bilegeek__ | (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b042:764a:da27:cd1a:86b4:69a4) bilegeek |
| 2025-03-17 04:04:44 +0100 | bilegeek | (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b041:b61:4489:3f6f:340a:78f6) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-03-17 04:05:16 +0100 | Guest16 | (~Guest16@168.92.227.70) |
| 2025-03-17 04:05:34 +0100 | <davean> | monochrom: I feel Fox News has gotten a lot done. |
| 2025-03-17 04:06:19 +0100 | Guest16 | (~Guest16@168.92.227.70) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-03-17 04:13:56 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-17 04:14:08 +0100 | Guest23 | (~Guest23@2601:45:500:5c10:39d7:6224:4126:8f39) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-03-17 04:14:28 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-03-17 04:14:52 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2025-03-17 04:16:30 +0100 | <ski> | "I seem to recall an account that they have an accessibility benefit in connection with screen readers" -- yes, there was a blind user here, years ago, who used curly brackets for Haskell |
| 2025-03-17 04:17:59 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |