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| 2025-03-12 02:41:09 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-12 02:45:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2025-03-12 02:55:50 +0100 | <monochrom> | Every formatter prioritizes minimizing diffs. This has the side effect of being more ugly and even religious. |
| 2025-03-12 02:58:34 +0100 | <monochrom> | But stepping back looking more holistically, that in turn is a side effect of the religion of "source code must be plain text files". |
| 2025-03-12 03:00:12 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the day I don't have to use grep because the tools are too dumb, you can take away my plain text files |
| 2025-03-12 03:00:29 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 03:01:22 +0100 | <geekosaur> | (the same applies to these overweening new messaging platforms, search is so limited and stupid that I don't even bother on Discord or non-bridged Matrix and I log the bridged rooms on IRC so I can use real search utils) |
| 2025-03-12 03:03:01 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 03:03:17 +0100 | <geekosaur> | (this is not religion, it's falling back on stone knives and bearskins) |
| 2025-03-12 03:03:17 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2025-03-12 03:04:52 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2025-03-12 03:05:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 03:09:24 +0100 | <monochrom> | You have an excellent reason, so I don't say that you follow a religion. Some other people use circular logic; that I call religion. |
| 2025-03-12 03:09:29 +0100 | Guest47 | (~Guest47@2600:387:f:7e18::6) |
| 2025-03-12 03:10:39 +0100 | Guest47 | (~Guest47@2600:387:f:7e18::6) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-03-12 03:15:09 +0100 | <geekosaur> | I'll also note that with LSPs, we're in at best the early Bronze age (granting that switching from plain text files might allow for improvements — but some of the LSPs I've used are at best Stone age, so I must wonder) |
| 2025-03-12 03:15:51 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 03:17:37 +0100 | yegorc | (~yegorc@user/yegorc) yegorc |
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| 2025-03-12 03:58:50 +0100 | tavare | (~tavare@150.129.88.189) (Changing host) |
| 2025-03-12 03:58:50 +0100 | tavare | (~tavare@user/tavare) tavare |
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| 2025-03-12 04:35:51 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2025-03-12 04:51:13 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2025-03-12 05:00:29 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
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| 2025-03-12 05:06:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 05:06:58 +0100 | euouae | (~euouae@user/euouae) euouae |
| 2025-03-12 05:13:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 05:18:43 +0100 | <euouae> | This thread <https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/5zjwym/when_is_undecidableinstances_okay_to_use/> has good info on UndecidableInstances, the other two were easier to understand |
| 2025-03-12 05:22:52 +0100 | <EvanR> | The constraint ‘Monad (t n)’ is no smaller than the instance head (Use UndecidableInstances to permit this) |
| 2025-03-12 05:22:58 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
| 2025-03-12 05:23:16 +0100 | <EvanR> | it's really nice when the compiler knows that it will finish and not enter into an infinite loop |
| 2025-03-12 05:23:33 +0100 | <EvanR> | which these smaller conditions guarantee |
| 2025-03-12 05:24:19 +0100 | <euouae> | what I gathered from the reddit post is that the 's' is not getting smaller and that is the issue |
| 2025-03-12 05:24:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 05:24:40 +0100 | <euouae> | but at the same time it's fine because of the functional dependency | m -> s in the definition of MonadState in mtl |
| 2025-03-12 05:26:13 +0100 | infinity0 | (~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 05:26:51 +0100 | <EvanR> | the first thing I thought was "for some reason, this idea of default implementations that work for everything with a certain typeclass instance is frowned upon" and couldn't remember the reason |
| 2025-03-12 05:27:03 +0100 | <EvanR> | then ekmett gets to that in the response |
| 2025-03-12 05:27:16 +0100 | <EvanR> | it leads to overlapping instances |
| 2025-03-12 05:28:35 +0100 | <EvanR> | typeclasses aren't built to do the sort of "overriding" that you see in prototypal OOP. Your type either has a single instance for the class, or it doesn't. Not competing instances with priority |
| 2025-03-12 05:28:51 +0100 | <EvanR> | (unless you do overlapping instances and god help you) |
| 2025-03-12 05:29:05 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 05:30:14 +0100 | mange | (~user@user/mange) mange |
| 2025-03-12 05:31:23 +0100 | <c_wraith> | UndecidableInstances is basically always fine to turn on. It's when you do and then GHC tells you the next thing to do is turn on overlapping, you know you're doing something wrong. |
| 2025-03-12 05:32:56 +0100 | <euouae> | I wasn't sure in what situation I'd run into undecidability with instance declarations |
| 2025-03-12 05:33:15 +0100 | <euouae> | perhaps if I did `instance Foo (F x) => Foo x where ...`? |
| 2025-03-12 05:33:15 +0100 | synchromesh | (~john@2406:5a00:24cf:bb00:c559:e625:333a:3d27) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-03-12 05:34:04 +0100 | <euouae> | but I'm assuming you're saying that the more important/encountered issue is overlapping instances |
| 2025-03-12 05:34:24 +0100 | synchromesh | (~john@2406:5a00:24cf:bb00:98ab:59f5:dcb3:c8fc) synchromesh |
| 2025-03-12 05:34:32 +0100 | <EvanR> | does the implied kind expected by the hypothetical Foo class make sense there |
| 2025-03-12 05:34:37 +0100 | <c_wraith> | yeah, that example would trigger it, but that's not a problem. The problem is that that instance overlaps everything |
| 2025-03-12 05:34:45 +0100 | <c_wraith> | So then ghc is going to tell you to allow overlapping |
| 2025-03-12 05:34:51 +0100 | <c_wraith> | and that's when things get fragile |
| 2025-03-12 05:35:09 +0100 | <EvanR> | ok nvm that |
| 2025-03-12 05:35:46 +0100 | <euouae> | oh I see |
| 2025-03-12 05:39:23 +0100 | <EvanR> | I tried it |
| 2025-03-12 05:39:37 +0100 | <EvanR> | GHC rejects my code because of overlapping instances |
| 2025-03-12 05:39:42 +0100 | <EvanR> | but at least doesn't tell me to turn it on xD |
| 2025-03-12 05:40:01 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 05:40:05 +0100 | <c_wraith> | I guess when overlapping was moved to a per-instance pragma, they decided not to advise turning it on |
| 2025-03-12 05:40:09 +0100 | <EvanR> | (and LANGUAGE OverlappingInstances is deprecated) |
| 2025-03-12 05:40:21 +0100 | <c_wraith> | when it was module level, it did just say "turn on this extension to allow this" |
| 2025-03-12 05:42:45 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-12 05:43:15 +0100 | <c_wraith> | A common way to end up needing UndecidableInstances without MPTCs or Overlapping is stuff like Fix. `newtype Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f))`. Attempting the automatic Show instance for that ends up with the compiler trying to write something like `instance Show (f (Fix f)) => Show (Fix f) ...` |
| 2025-03-12 05:43:32 +0100 | <c_wraith> | And in that case, the constraint is definitely larger than the instance head. |
| 2025-03-12 05:44:34 +0100 | <c_wraith> | On one hand, that's why the Show1 class exists. On the other, you can do it with UndecidableInstances and StandaloneDeriving. |
| 2025-03-12 05:45:44 +0100 | <EvanR> | I continued to try to troll ghc with some terrible overlapping instances |
| 2025-03-12 05:45:59 +0100 | <EvanR> | ghci told me to enable IncoherentInstances |
| 2025-03-12 05:46:16 +0100 | <c_wraith> | you should be getting nervous. |
| 2025-03-12 05:46:19 +0100 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 2025-03-12 05:46:53 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 05:46:55 +0100 | <euouae> | it's like those no-fault waivers |
| 2025-03-12 05:47:19 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 05:49:58 +0100 | <EvanR> | now it's telling me the reduction stack size of 201 ran out, and instead of increasing it, to disable the check if I'm sure type checking will terminate |
| 2025-03-12 05:50:28 +0100 | <c_wraith> | I'm sure nothing bad could happen |
| 2025-03-12 05:50:36 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 05:52:02 +0100 | <EvanR> | when someone said haskell is not a logic they weren't kidding |
| 2025-03-12 05:52:19 +0100 | <c_wraith> | pfft. It's a logic, it's just not a consistent one. |
| 2025-03-12 05:52:52 +0100 | <EvanR> | falso 9.6 |
| 2025-03-12 05:53:29 +0100 | <c_wraith> | inconsistent logics are nice because they let you prove anything, and so does Haskell |
| 2025-03-12 05:54:37 +0100 | <EvanR> | that being said, the type class system always terminates if you don't enable any dark magic pragmas right |
| 2025-03-12 05:55:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | so there's a way to use it semilogically |
| 2025-03-12 05:55:13 +0100 | <c_wraith> | yes. the solver always shrinks the problem with the default rules |
| 2025-03-12 05:56:26 +0100 | tusko | (uid478376@user/tusko) tusko |
| 2025-03-12 05:57:10 +0100 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: WeeChat 4.5.2) |
| 2025-03-12 05:57:44 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2025-03-12 06:06:07 +0100 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-03-12 06:06:58 +0100 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 06:13:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 06:17:11 +0100 | sabathan | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-03-12 06:17:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 06:20:52 +0100 | sabathan | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-03-12 06:23:32 +0100 | robobub | (uid248673@id-248673.uxbridge.irccloud.com) robobub |
| 2025-03-12 06:28:09 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-12 06:28:30 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 06:31:19 +0100 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-03-12 06:32:37 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 06:33:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 06:34:44 +0100 | <euouae> | alright thank you both! |
| 2025-03-12 06:34:46 +0100 | euouae | (~euouae@user/euouae) () |
| 2025-03-12 06:35:02 +0100 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-03-12 06:41:39 +0100 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.221) |
| 2025-03-12 06:43:04 +0100 | k0zy | (~user@user/k0zy) k0zy |
| 2025-03-12 06:43:53 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 06:50:41 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 06:55:01 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-03-12 07:01:57 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 07:02:29 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 07:04:13 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2025-03-12 07:07:00 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 07:14:33 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-03-12 07:16:15 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-03-12 07:17:19 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-03-12 07:18:58 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |