| 2026-06-24 00:02:49 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 00:13:33 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 00:14:15 +0000 | schuelermine | (~Thunderbi@user/schuelermine) schuelermine |
| 2026-06-24 00:17:56 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 00:19:23 +0000 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) siracusa |
| 2026-06-24 00:28:56 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 00:33:05 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 00:44:17 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 00:51:19 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 00:52:45 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:9353:b8c8:c41e:444d) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 00:57:46 +0000 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2026-06-24 00:58:58 +0000 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e74def43ec2141b26299b177.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 00:59:28 +0000 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p54ad50b4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 01:01:58 +0000 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-06-24 01:02:17 +0000 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) prdak |
| 2026-06-24 01:02:20 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 01:06:56 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 271 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 01:08:21 +0000 | <monochrom> | My answer to "why you accept static and strong typing but not totality, it sounds inconsistent" is that trade-offs and cost-vs-benefit considerations are consistent. Strong static typing gives me a lot of benefits with very little cost and/or inconvenience. Totality is a lot of cost for what it's worth. |
| 2026-06-24 01:09:49 +0000 | <monochrom> | IMO totality is never going to be worthwhile because, for the same price, you should go for big-Theta complexity instead. I.e., don't bother proving termination; if anything, go straight for proving linear time or log time or whatever. Who cares about termination if it ends up being triple-expoenential time. |
| 2026-06-24 01:09:55 +0000 | ski | (~ski@90-224-14-130-no600.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 01:11:42 +0000 | <monochrom> | Almost every termination proof hides a time bound so it is counterproductive to throw the time bound away. |
| 2026-06-24 01:12:13 +0000 | <monochrom> | (It is not like you have a non-constructive proof of termination using the axiom of choice, is it? >:) ) |
| 2026-06-24 01:12:46 +0000 | user363627 | (~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2026-06-24 01:13:02 +0000 | user363627 | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2026-06-24 01:17:43 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 01:17:55 +0000 | <jreicher> | A type system that checked complexity would be really interesting. |
| 2026-06-24 01:20:33 +0000 | ski | (~ski@90-224-14-130-no600.tbcn.telia.com) ski |
| 2026-06-24 01:21:59 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 01:23:49 +0000 | jonnie | (~jonnie@user/jonnie) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-06-24 01:24:23 +0000 | user363627 | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-06-24 01:25:45 +0000 | hiredman | (~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 01:29:20 +0000 | hiredman | (~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) hiredman |
| 2026-06-24 01:33:04 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 01:33:37 +0000 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2026-06-24 01:34:09 +0000 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-06-24 01:37:15 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 01:39:34 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2026-06-24 01:42:41 +0000 | <EvanR> | monochrom, to solve for totality first solve for complexity then set n = finite |
| 2026-06-24 01:43:15 +0000 | <EvanR> | monochrom, ~~axiom of choice~~ markov's principle |
| 2026-06-24 01:43:44 +0000 | <EvanR> | if you base the argument on that, it might actually be convincing |
| 2026-06-24 01:44:12 +0000 | <monochrom> | Err sorry, what is markov's principle again? |
| 2026-06-24 01:46:02 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Quit: xff0x) |
| 2026-06-24 01:46:38 +0000 | <EvanR> | for any function on naturals f, if there not existing an n such that f(n)=0 would be a contradiction, then there's some n where f(n) = 0 |
| 2026-06-24 01:46:55 +0000 | <jreicher> | EvanR: I don't think anybody said "solve for complexity" in the general case |
| 2026-06-24 01:47:20 +0000 | <EvanR> | that was a joke in analogy to solve the problem for all n then set n = 2 |
| 2026-06-24 01:48:16 +0000 | <monochrom> | Yeah how to visualize 6 dimensions? Visualize n dimensions, then set n=6. >:) |
| 2026-06-24 01:48:26 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 01:51:43 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2026-06-24 01:52:24 +0000 | <jreicher> | :) |
| 2026-06-24 01:53:09 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 257 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:00:18 +0000 | Flow | (~none@gentoo/developer/flow) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2) |
| 2026-06-24 02:01:44 +0000 | schuelermine | (~Thunderbi@user/schuelermine) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:01:59 +0000 | td_ | (~td@i53870934.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:03:44 +0000 | Flow | (~none@gentoo/developer/flow) flow |
| 2026-06-24 02:03:46 +0000 | td_ | (~td@i53870911.versanet.de) |
| 2026-06-24 02:03:49 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 02:08:14 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:19:12 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 02:25:46 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:27:44 +0000 | <EvanR> | *decidable f |
| 2026-06-24 02:28:12 +0000 | <EvanR> | proposition on naturals |
| 2026-06-24 02:30:47 +0000 | td_ | (~td@i53870911.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:32:05 +0000 | EvanR | (~EvanR@user/evanr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-06-24 02:32:21 +0000 | td_ | (~td@i53870930.versanet.de) |
| 2026-06-24 02:32:24 +0000 | EvanR | (~EvanR@user/evanr) EvanR |
| 2026-06-24 02:33:59 +0000 | oats | (~oats@user/oats) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-06-24 02:34:14 +0000 | oats | (~oats@user/oats) oats |
| 2026-06-24 02:37:15 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 02:37:56 +0000 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-95-19.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:41:43 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 249 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:44:28 +0000 | poscat0x04 | (~poscat@user/poscat) poscat |
| 2026-06-24 02:46:24 +0000 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:49:46 +0000 | Katarushisu69 | (~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2026-06-24 02:52:06 +0000 | Katarushisu6 | (~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:52:06 +0000 | Katarushisu69 | Katarushisu6 |
| 2026-06-24 02:52:35 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 02:52:54 +0000 | foul_owl | (~kerry@94.156.149.95) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:57:18 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 02:59:54 +0000 | <monochrom> | Oh, decidable f makes the principle much less powerful. I mean much more realistic and closer to being constructive! |
| 2026-06-24 03:01:25 +0000 | <EvanR> | yes the realization of this principle is... the purported n can't not exist, so just start looping through them all in order until you find it |
| 2026-06-24 03:02:00 +0000 | <EvanR> | as you sit there waiting for the search to terminate, you might start to feel like you're looking at the "proof" that the turing machine is infinite |
| 2026-06-24 03:02:11 +0000 | <monochrom> | Yeah. |
| 2026-06-24 03:06:58 +0000 | kimiamania | (~768865ec@user/kimiamania) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 03:07:59 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 03:11:38 +0000 | smalltalkman | (uid545680@id-545680.hampstead.irccloud.com) smalltalkman |
| 2026-06-24 03:12:24 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 03:12:37 +0000 | fgarcia | (~lei@user/fgarcia) fgarcia |
| 2026-06-24 03:20:50 +0000 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 03:23:22 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 03:24:13 +0000 | kimiamania | (~768865ec@user/kimiamania) kimiamania |
| 2026-06-24 03:24:50 +0000 | rekahsoft | (~rekahsoft@70.51.99.119) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-06-24 03:27:54 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 03:38:44 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 03:43:05 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 03:44:09 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 03:45:56 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2026-06-24 03:50:19 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 03:52:08 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2026-06-24 03:54:05 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 03:58:48 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 04:00:40 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 261 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 04:02:20 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2026-06-24 04:09:45 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 04:14:09 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 04:14:45 +0000 | fgarcia | (~lei@user/fgarcia) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 04:20:16 +0000 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.201) |
| 2026-06-24 04:25:03 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 04:29:38 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 04:40:23 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 04:44:45 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 243 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 04:49:24 +0000 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Quit: marinelli) |
| 2026-06-24 04:55:46 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 05:01:03 +0000 | _________ | (~nobody@user/noodly) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2026-06-24 05:02:43 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 05:03:44 +0000 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-06-24 05:05:02 +0000 | _________ | (~nobody@user/noodly) _________ |
| 2026-06-24 05:12:04 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 05:16:34 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 05:27:26 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-06-24 05:31:53 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-06-24 05:32:24 +0000 | <dolio> | Markov's principle says that semi-decidable propositions are ¬¬-stable. |
| 2026-06-24 05:39:33 +0000 | ft | (~ft@p508db6b1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2026-06-24 05:42:47 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |