| 2026-05-22 00:12:18 +0000 | TwinAdam | (~TwinAdam@user/adamsaunders) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-05-22 00:18:59 +0000 | TwinAdam | (~TwinAdam@user/adamsaunders) adamsaunders |
| 2026-05-22 00:36:55 +0000 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 00:46:52 +0000 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) troojg |
| 2026-05-22 01:01:23 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-05-22 01:06:15 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 01:06:23 +0000 | Square2 | (~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 01:15:53 +0000 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e50461999fae89737d79.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 01:19:49 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:870d:4dab:d7c7:3a08) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 01:27:14 +0000 | vetkat | (~vetkat@user/vetkat) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2026-05-22 01:27:36 +0000 | vetkat | (~vetkat@user/vetkat) vetkat |
| 2026-05-22 01:35:29 +0000 | emilym | (~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym |
| 2026-05-22 01:40:11 +0000 | emilym | (~Thunderbi@user/emilym) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 01:42:19 +0000 | ftzm | (~ftzm@085080245206.dynamic.telenor.dk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 01:42:58 +0000 | ftzm | (~ftzm@085080242199.dynamic.telenor.dk) ftzm |
| 2026-05-22 01:46:51 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-05-22 01:51:25 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 02:02:45 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-05-22 02:04:23 +0000 | rabbull7 | (~rabbull@xdsl-31-164-93-219.adslplus.ch) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2026-05-22 02:04:36 +0000 | rabbull7 | (~rabbull@xdsl-31-164-93-219.adslplus.ch) |
| 2026-05-22 02:05:41 +0000 | notzmv | (~umar@user/notzmv) notzmv |
| 2026-05-22 02:08:36 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 02:14:42 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2026-05-22 02:20:09 +0000 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 02:29:54 +0000 | sefidel | (~sefidel@user/sefidel) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-05-22 02:36:14 +0000 | r4bbyte | (~user@2601:404:ce04:9df0::57d4) |
| 2026-05-22 02:40:56 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | Hi, I haven't quite decided to pick up the language yet and wanted to ask about how good the tooling / libraries were. I spent a bit of time with CL, and was a bit disappointed in the lack of proper libraries (and good package management) for most common applications. I am really looking for more of a general purpose language that I can use in nearly any scenario without too many sacrifices, and wanted to get advice on how Haskell |
| 2026-05-22 02:40:56 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | performed in that regard. |
| 2026-05-22 02:49:39 +0000 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2026-05-22 02:50:41 +0000 | <davean> | it the System/38 langauge from .... 50 years ago? We're being trolled. |
| 2026-05-22 02:51:13 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | Sorry? |
| 2026-05-22 02:52:02 +0000 | Katarushisu62 | (~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2026-05-22 02:54:10 +0000 | Katarushisu6 | (~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 02:54:11 +0000 | Katarushisu62 | Katarushisu6 |
| 2026-05-22 02:56:23 +0000 | ricardomaps | (~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:c96:6fe3:6c1d:2729) |
| 2026-05-22 02:56:35 +0000 | ricardomaps | (~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:c96:6fe3:6c1d:2729) (Client Quit) |
| 2026-05-22 02:58:46 +0000 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2026-05-22 02:59:40 +0000 | <EvanR> | CL = common lisp right |
| 2026-05-22 03:00:06 +0000 | <monochrom> | Why don't I troll too! Define "most common applications". |
| 2026-05-22 03:00:37 +0000 | <monochrom> | I have seen two people disagreeing on what that includes and excludes. |
| 2026-05-22 03:01:10 +0000 | <EvanR> | haskell has trouble running on 8bit microcontrollers so |
| 2026-05-22 03:01:22 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | Yeah, common lisp |
| 2026-05-22 03:02:12 +0000 | <EvanR> | default build system and packaging is cabal. Package management is through hackage. It works |
| 2026-05-22 03:03:26 +0000 | <EvanR> | if bindings don't exist to the non haskell library of your choice you can use the FFI yourself to make it so |
| 2026-05-22 03:03:58 +0000 | <EvanR> | this is how I managed to get a cocoa GUI for my haskell app back in the day |
| 2026-05-22 03:04:18 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | I apologize if it comes off that I'm being dishonest in any way, I have little experience with FP but I'm looking to gain some |
| 2026-05-22 03:05:06 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | CL just had me running into roadblock after roadblock with unmaintained libraries with poor documentation |
| 2026-05-22 03:06:15 +0000 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2026-05-22 03:06:29 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | I've heard Haskell is a pretty large investment, at least time wise, so I wanted to ask if the situation was much better before I pushed myself too hard |
| 2026-05-22 03:06:32 +0000 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2026-05-22 03:06:57 +0000 | <EvanR> | it depends if you had any previous experience with functional style |
| 2026-05-22 03:07:57 +0000 | <EvanR> | e.g. lisp at least emphasizes functions with little to no side effects and leveraging data instead of just algorithms |
| 2026-05-22 03:08:10 +0000 | <monochrom> | You can hop over to https://hackage.haskell.org/ to see what libraries the community has and doesn't have. |
| 2026-05-22 03:08:11 +0000 | <EvanR> | so you don't have to learn that |
| 2026-05-22 03:08:52 +0000 | <EvanR> | you get a head start into the specifically haskell stuff like lazy evaluation |
| 2026-05-22 03:09:09 +0000 | <monochrom> | Like I said I don't know what the hell "common" means. |
| 2026-05-22 03:10:10 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | I have experience with (trying) to write purely functional lisp |
| 2026-05-22 03:10:55 +0000 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-05-22 03:11:17 +0000 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2026-05-22 03:11:23 +0000 | <x9> | lisp is call by value haskell is call by name |
| 2026-05-22 03:11:36 +0000 | <EvanR> | uhg |
| 2026-05-22 03:11:51 +0000 | <EvanR> | eager evaluation, lazy evaluation |
| 2026-05-22 03:12:27 +0000 | <EvanR> | the give the same results unless there is non-termination |
| 2026-05-22 03:12:42 +0000 | <EvanR> | but have different performance |
| 2026-05-22 03:12:58 +0000 | <x9> | also the thing about lisp is that lisp you can remember in your head as for the whole interpreter, to write on paper as for the whole interpreter etc. haskell is more like excellent engineering for real world usage, where you can always copy ghc from online, but which is too big to ever make yourself. |
| 2026-05-22 03:13:37 +0000 | <EvanR> | fits on a napkin means it's a good esolang, not necessarily "good" |
| 2026-05-22 03:13:43 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | lol |
| 2026-05-22 03:14:40 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | i think lisp has a lot of interesting things (homoiconicity & macros) cl can get very, very ugly very quickly |
| 2026-05-22 03:14:57 +0000 | <x9> | mathematically fits on a napkin means you can reproduce the automata easier |
| 2026-05-22 03:15:08 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | i just want something elegant |
| 2026-05-22 03:15:13 +0000 | <EvanR> | the napkin version doesn't actually let you write real programs |
| 2026-05-22 03:15:14 +0000 | <x9> | hence to mutate it easier etc. |
| 2026-05-22 03:15:52 +0000 | <x9> | i think haskell is a beautiful giant for enterprise and yes the actual programs |
| 2026-05-22 03:15:59 +0000 | <x9> | that need to run with assurance and such |
| 2026-05-22 03:16:23 +0000 | <x9> | lol what vagueness |
| 2026-05-22 03:16:50 +0000 | <EvanR> | once you get into it you can generate many napkin sized languages with haskell, e.g. simply typed lambda calculus, if you want |
| 2026-05-22 03:17:09 +0000 | <EvanR> | minimal dependently typed lambda calculus |
| 2026-05-22 03:17:14 +0000 | <davean> | Oh I'm not familiar with people refering to common lisp as "CL" I guess its because no one I know says it enough to abreviate :) |
| 2026-05-22 03:17:37 +0000 | <monochrom> | Common Lisp has so many special forms that the point of barebone Lisp being just 3 simple rules is moot. Without the special forms, you don't even have if-then-else. |
| 2026-05-22 03:17:55 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | i agree |
| 2026-05-22 03:18:45 +0000 | <EvanR> | variable, lambda form, application |
| 2026-05-22 03:18:54 +0000 | <monochrom> | In contrast, if Haskell did not give you an if-then-else, you could have written your own because lazy evaluation makes it work. That's when the point "the core language is simple" is relevant. |
| 2026-05-22 03:19:20 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | on mutating programs, while i was looking into this, i actually did see a "napkin" version of lisps prefix notation implemented for genetic programming in haskell |
| 2026-05-22 03:19:30 +0000 | <EvanR> | haha yeah call/cc is a thing you can just write in haskell |
| 2026-05-22 03:19:35 +0000 | <EvanR> | if you want that |
| 2026-05-22 03:20:08 +0000 | <EvanR> | (you probably don't) |
| 2026-05-22 03:20:21 +0000 | <monochrom> | As far as barebone languages not meant to be practical are concerned, IMO System F is better than barebone Lisp. |
| 2026-05-22 03:21:36 +0000 | undermine | (~user@user/undermine) (Quit: Bye) |
| 2026-05-22 03:21:37 +0000 | Wanderer | (~wanderer@user/wanderer) (Quit: goodbye) |
| 2026-05-22 03:21:39 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | the thing that makes cl impractical for me was this experience i had trying to write a basic text editor |
| 2026-05-22 03:21:49 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | getting the terminal in raw mode was |
| 2026-05-22 03:21:51 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | not fun |
| 2026-05-22 03:22:04 +0000 | <monochrom> | I once taught students both call/cc and shift/reset. Students asked "why did call/cc even exist? shift/reset is better". I had to answer "call/cc was invented first. as usual, the first ideas were not the best ideas in retrospect. Progress!" |
| 2026-05-22 03:24:30 +0000 | Wanderer | (~wanderer@user/wanderer) Wanderer |
| 2026-05-22 03:24:47 +0000 | <monochrom> | BTW I am also planning to teach Dhall! Because it's System F. :) |
| 2026-05-22 03:25:20 +0000 | <EvanR> | we have a couple libraries for abusing terminals for apps: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vty https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ansi-terminal |
| 2026-05-22 03:25:34 +0000 | <EvanR> | also some game libraries built on those |
| 2026-05-22 03:26:15 +0000 | <EvanR> | it seems most haskell gaming has historically been terminal based |
| 2026-05-22 03:26:51 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | lmao |
| 2026-05-22 03:27:41 +0000 | fgarcia | (~lei@user/fgarcia) fgarcia |
| 2026-05-22 03:30:32 +0000 | <EvanR> | these libraries are nice for gluing your app to the outside world where world happens to be a terminal. But not the greatest demonstration of FP concepts |
| 2026-05-22 03:31:15 +0000 | <EvanR> | diagrams on the other hand https://diagrams.github.io/gallery.html |
| 2026-05-22 03:32:32 +0000 | rainbyte | (~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-05-22 03:33:53 +0000 | <EvanR> | I see some of these diagram programs can be greatly simplified for spectator purposes |
| 2026-05-22 03:34:24 +0000 | rainbyte | (~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) rainbyte |
| 2026-05-22 03:37:53 +0000 | x9 | (~x9@91-157-105-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-05-22 03:47:51 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-05-22 03:51:31 +0000 | res0nat0r0844909 | (~Fletch@falcon.whatbox.ca) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2026-05-22 03:52:42 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 04:07:24 +0000 | notzmv | (~umar@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 04:11:27 +0000 | sprout | (~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 04:14:30 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | what editors / ides do you guys use for haskell? |
| 2026-05-22 04:18:43 +0000 | <sm> | vs code and the Haskell extension |
| 2026-05-22 04:23:13 +0000 | <jackdk> | GNU Emacs, haskell-mode for syntax highlighting, dante for ghci auto-loading. There are probably more modern setups with LSP integration etc that I haven't had time to explore. |
| 2026-05-22 04:26:24 +0000 | <r4bbyte> | i'm actually on erc right now, i haven't played much with lsp stuff |
| 2026-05-22 04:27:41 +0000 | poscat0x04 | (~poscat@user/poscat) poscat |
| 2026-05-22 04:29:08 +0000 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 04:29:35 +0000 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-05-22 04:30:00 +0000 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex |
| 2026-05-22 04:35:32 +0000 | Inst | (~Inst@user/Inst) Inst |
| 2026-05-22 04:35:38 +0000 | <Inst> | is it okay if I ask about project scopes and timetables? |
| 2026-05-22 04:35:55 +0000 | <Inst> | because, my alternative is to ask DeepSeek / Kimi / Gemini / Claude, and ummm, lol |
| 2026-05-22 04:37:23 +0000 | <Inst> | Like, for instance, I wired up a custom authn authz over Supabase, using Twain, Servant, Postgresql-Simple, and Hasql |
| 2026-05-22 04:37:33 +0000 | <Inst> | opaque token, has an OIDC endpoint that partially works |
| 2026-05-22 04:37:44 +0000 | <Inst> | 6 weeks, is that reasonable? Or mostly reflective of my inexperience? |
| 2026-05-22 04:38:05 +0000 | <Inst> | It needs refactoring to provide a unified schema and endpoint setup |
| 2026-05-22 04:38:39 +0000 | <Inst> | I'm now thinking about, first, providing a Discord - Telegram - Webclient mirror (using a simplified and vibecoded Next.js frontend, but locked down on hand-built Haskell backend) |
| 2026-05-22 04:39:00 +0000 | <Inst> | I need a custom dossier system that's suitable for HR and human development |
| 2026-05-22 04:39:08 +0000 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2026-05-22 04:39:27 +0000 | <Inst> | as well as a scheduling and coordination system that can track user activity, allows invites, and event generation |
| 2026-05-22 04:39:46 +0000 | <Inst> | What kind of time budget can I expect for this? |
| 2026-05-22 04:45:06 +0000 | r4bbyte | (~user@2601:404:ce04:9df0::57d4) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-05-22 04:48:51 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-05-22 04:52:15 +0000 | sprout | (~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net) sprout |
| 2026-05-22 04:53:30 +0000 | fgarcia | (~lei@user/fgarcia) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 04:54:29 +0000 | <Inline> | 6*AI^2 |
| 2026-05-22 04:54:38 +0000 | <Inline> | lol |
| 2026-05-22 04:55:19 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-05-22 04:55:37 +0000 | <Inst> | In actuality, I'm discovering I need to hand refactor the AI codebase anyways |
| 2026-05-22 04:55:51 +0000 | <Inst> | I need centralized libs, simplified route.ts files, etc |
| 2026-05-22 04:56:01 +0000 | <Inst> | I don't know frontend, and I have someone hired to help me with the frontend |
| 2026-05-22 04:56:09 +0000 | <sm> | Inst what's your situation ? Are you doing this as employee, business owner, hobbyist ? |
| 2026-05-22 04:56:15 +0000 | <Inst> | hobbyist |
| 2026-05-22 04:56:22 +0000 | <Inst> | i'm building a guild website and a gaming guild |
| 2026-05-22 04:56:27 +0000 | <Inst> | as a customer acquisition front for a start-up |
| 2026-05-22 04:56:32 +0000 | <sm> | then it takes as long as it takes, right ? try and you'll find out |
| 2026-05-22 04:56:39 +0000 | <sm> | we sure don't know :) |
| 2026-05-22 04:56:51 +0000 | <Inst> | wish i had a budget for you, SM |
| 2026-05-22 04:57:11 +0000 | <Inst> | you know what you're doing, I'm hiring people who are probably hiding the fact that this is their first Haskell project |
| 2026-05-22 04:57:15 +0000 | <sm> | especially in the new AIge... timetables are crazy now |
| 2026-05-22 04:57:36 +0000 | <Inst> | it's just terrible for me because I think up features way faster than I can implement |
| 2026-05-22 04:57:41 +0000 | <Inst> | took me a week to get the OIDC spoofer up |
| 2026-05-22 04:57:51 +0000 | <Inst> | 3 weeks for the Authn / Authz |
| 2026-05-22 04:57:54 +0000 | <sm> | I don't want to advocate AI use, but that's exactly where people are having success with it |
| 2026-05-22 04:58:37 +0000 | <Inst> | AI project management is giving me ridiculous timetables, albeit I end up estimating completion within 48 hours that usually turns into 168 |
| 2026-05-22 04:59:27 +0000 | <sm> | maybe you need to refine your techniques a little more ? read how successful folks are managing it ? |
| 2026-05-22 04:59:43 +0000 | <Inst> | ya |
| 2026-05-22 04:59:57 +0000 | <sm> | I imagine estimating is still going to be hard and usually longer than you think, it always is |
| 2026-05-22 05:00:02 +0000 | <Inst> | i honestly have no interest in writing servant servers 49382 times to get good at it, the point i'm interested in right now is rapid library pickup |
| 2026-05-22 05:00:14 +0000 | <Inst> | second derivative skills are what's repeatable |
| 2026-05-22 05:00:14 +0000 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.221) |
| 2026-05-22 05:00:18 +0000 | res0nat0r0844909 | (~Fletch@falcon.whatbox.ca) |
| 2026-05-22 05:00:50 +0000 | <Inst> | I have Parkinson's Law for estimates, if I don't make them aggressive, I waste time, but if I do make them aggressive, I miss targets. |
| 2026-05-22 05:01:12 +0000 | <sm> | what if you reduce scope, estimate and work on smaller chunks |
| 2026-05-22 05:02:17 +0000 | <Inst> | I mean I'm already working at the minimum scope |
| 2026-05-22 05:02:24 +0000 | <sm> | you're not |
| 2026-05-22 05:02:24 +0000 | <Inst> | I've already decided to plug in off the shelf software for this |
| 2026-05-22 05:02:36 +0000 | <sm> | you can always reduce scope |
| 2026-05-22 05:02:37 +0000 | <Inst> | as placeholders |
| 2026-05-22 05:03:30 +0000 | <sm> | I used to work with the founder of Heroku, a very good programmer, and he was a master at dynamically downsizing his goal in real time until it became easy |
| 2026-05-22 05:04:04 +0000 | <Inst> | hmmmm |
| 2026-05-22 05:04:12 +0000 | <Inst> | the problem is, I have a mindset of prototype then iterate |
| 2026-05-22 05:04:15 +0000 | <Inst> | and I tested it |
| 2026-05-22 05:04:24 +0000 | <Inst> | I refactored my core authn authz 3 times ;_; |
| 2026-05-22 05:04:53 +0000 | <sm> | that's a good mindsent |
| 2026-05-22 05:04:57 +0000 | <Inst> | that is what i worry about minimal scope, if you do minimal scope, you're not future proofing, and you're giving yourself a harder problem of retrofitting features in |
| 2026-05-22 05:04:58 +0000 | <sm> | mindset |