IRCBrowse

2024/11/07

2024-11-07 00:00:01 +0100wryishly(~wryish@216.246.119.62) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:00:04 +0100rune_(sid21167@id-21167.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:00:04 +0100snek(sid280155@id-280155.lymington.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:00:27 +0100jjhoo(~jahakala@user/jjhoo) jjhoo
2024-11-07 00:00:29 +0100Miroboru(~myrvoll@178-164-114.82.3p.ntebredband.no) Miroboru
2024-11-07 00:00:29 +0100hacklschorsch(~flo@2a01:4f9:3a:2296::2)
2024-11-07 00:00:45 +0100s4msung(~s4msung@user/s4msung) s4msung
2024-11-07 00:00:51 +0100NiKaN(sid385034@id-385034.helmsley.irccloud.com) NiKaN
2024-11-07 00:00:54 +0100snek(sid280155@id-280155.lymington.irccloud.com) snek
2024-11-07 00:00:55 +0100rune_(sid21167@id-21167.ilkley.irccloud.com)
2024-11-07 00:01:11 +0100Techcable(sid534393@user/Techcable) Techcable
2024-11-07 00:01:11 +0100tritlo(sid58727@id-58727.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2024-11-07 00:01:24 +0100aristid(sid1599@id-1599.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2024-11-07 00:01:49 +0100thaumavorio(~thaumavor@thaumavor.io) thaumavorio
2024-11-07 00:01:54 +0100notzmv(~daniel@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:04:14 +0100 <probie> When did Haskell get the IO type? ~1996?
2024-11-07 00:04:23 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-07 00:04:41 +0100Square2(~Square4@user/square) Square
2024-11-07 00:04:51 +0100alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-341a-456e-a8d1-f94d-35c3-2d26.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2024-11-07 00:05:44 +0100 <Rembane> Yeah, it's a bit older, 1993ish. https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/IO-monad
2024-11-07 00:05:47 +0100 <Rembane> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/158511.158524
2024-11-07 00:06:03 +0100 <EvanR> uniqueness types?
2024-11-07 00:07:28 +0100Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:07:30 +0100 <dolio> 1.3 is the first report with it.
2024-11-07 00:07:44 +0100Square2Square
2024-11-07 00:08:56 +0100 <dolio> The 1993 citation is dated 1992 if you click on it. :รพ
2024-11-07 00:09:03 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:09:27 +0100 <Rembane> Good stuff :D
2024-11-07 00:09:38 +0100 <Rembane> This is why I don't trust time
2024-11-07 00:10:03 +0100 <EvanR> the researcher was merlin, who famously experienced time backwards
2024-11-07 00:10:12 +0100 <dolio> Ah, of course.
2024-11-07 00:12:20 +0100 <Rembane> It must've been a real trip to talk to him
2024-11-07 00:13:59 +0100 <dolio> Even the 1.0 report has the continuation based I/O which, if you looked at it today, you might figure out it could be factored into a monad.
2024-11-07 00:15:10 +0100 <dolio> It's like every IO operation has (>>=) stuck onto it already, and maybe catch.
2024-11-07 00:16:02 +0100 <Inst> Clean predates Haskell, interestingly enough.
2024-11-07 00:17:21 +0100unlucy(sid572875@user/unlucy) unlucy
2024-11-07 00:17:46 +0100 <Rembane> How does Clean before Haskell handle IO?
2024-11-07 00:19:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-07 00:22:12 +0100 <int-e> "Consequently, a Clean program consists of a set of rewrite rules." -- 1987 Clean was a language for expressing graph rewriting systems.
2024-11-07 00:22:41 +0100 <int-e> cf. https://wiki.clean.cs.ru.nl/Publications#1987
2024-11-07 00:23:16 +0100visilii(~visilii@85.172.77.90) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2024-11-07 00:23:34 +0100visilii(~visilii@85.172.77.90)
2024-11-07 00:23:48 +0100 <probie> https://www.mbsd.cs.ru.nl/publications/papers/1992/achp92-HighLevelIO.pdf 1992 seems to be where IO appears in Clear
2024-11-07 00:24:20 +0100 <int-e> stdin was provided as a list of newline-terminated lines. So it's the main :: [String] -> [String] type of I/O.
2024-11-07 00:24:24 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:24:54 +0100 <Rembane> Isn't that how very early Haskell did I/O?
2024-11-07 00:25:20 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2024-11-07 00:25:22 +0100 <dolio> Sort of. But the types are more complex, I think.
2024-11-07 00:25:44 +0100 <dolio> Not just strings.
2024-11-07 00:25:57 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2024-11-07 00:26:12 +0100 <int-e> Hmm 1988 has a related language called LEAN? Hehe.
2024-11-07 00:26:36 +0100 <Rembane> I need the languages EAN, AN and N too.
2024-11-07 00:26:42 +0100CrunchyFlakes(~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:26:52 +0100CrunchyFlakes(~CrunchyFl@31.19.233.78)
2024-11-07 00:27:18 +0100Everything(~Everythin@178-133-140-206.mobile.vf-ua.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-07 00:27:38 +0100 <probie> I think `UNQ` in early Clean appears slightly before monadic IO in early Haskell, since the first monadic IO paper that's been found so far references the Clean one.
2024-11-07 00:27:43 +0100visilii(~visilii@85.172.77.90) (Client Quit)
2024-11-07 00:28:36 +0100visilii(~visilii@85.172.77.90)
2024-11-07 00:30:40 +0100pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) siracusa
2024-11-07 00:31:22 +0100 <Inst> I think you can consider IO in Haskell a very primitive / early effect system, but I don't think you can say the same for Clean's uniqueness types, which seem to be a more of linearity
2024-11-07 00:31:51 +0100 <Inst> so then you can argue that Haskell had the first effect system
2024-11-07 00:35:12 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-07 00:38:09 +0100kstatz12(~karl@user/kstatz12) kstatz12
2024-11-07 00:38:12 +0100 <int-e> 1992 CLEAN still had rules, 1994 CLEAN started to look more like Haskell.
2024-11-07 00:38:14 +0100int-eshrugs
2024-11-07 00:38:42 +0100 <int-e> Anyway, the lesson here is that languages evolve, so dates of conception can be misleading.
2024-11-07 00:38:54 +0100SlackCoder(~SlackCode@64-94-63-8.ip.weststar.net.ky) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-11-07 00:39:31 +0100 <dolio> I'm curious what Miranda did, but I can't find my copy of the manual.
2024-11-07 00:39:52 +0100kstatz12(~karl@user/kstatz12) (Client Quit)
2024-11-07 00:40:33 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Miranda has a sys_message ADT, main uses a list of that
2024-11-07 00:40:56 +0100 <sshine> Inst, I understand that IO came to Haskell at some later point.
2024-11-07 00:41:00 +0100 <dolio> In '85, though?
2024-11-07 00:41:13 +0100 <sshine> I was born that year!
2024-11-07 00:41:44 +0100 <dolio> I mean, that would make somse sense, because Haskell was essentially Miranda with a few tweaks.
2024-11-07 00:42:07 +0100 <int-e> sshine: so how do you feel about turning ancient next year *runs*
2024-11-07 00:42:12 +0100 <sshine> https://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/IO-monad-history.html
2024-11-07 00:42:23 +0100 <sshine> apparently I'm not as ancient as the IO monad after all
2024-11-07 00:42:24 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f63c008ff7276864804.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-07 00:44:17 +0100 <sshine> well, it ain't 0x20 or 0x30, but it's a pretty number. :)
2024-11-07 00:47:06 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2024-11-07 00:58:14 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) Versality
2024-11-07 01:00:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-07 01:06:18 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2024-11-07 01:12:02 +0100ljdarj1(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
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2024-11-07 01:15:47 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-07 01:23:04 +0100 <monochrom> Haha so there is opportunity for saying "Lean 88"?! :)
2024-11-07 01:27:25 +0100 <monochrom> But I disagree with Oleg in thinking of () as world state. Instead, it is more honest without sacrificing pragmatics to adopt that in "() -> Codomain" the -> is a Kleisli arrow.
2024-11-07 01:28:38 +0100TonyStone(~TonyStone@user/TonyStone) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-11-07 01:28:54 +0100TonyStone(~TonyStone@user/TonyStone) TonyStone
2024-11-07 01:31:11 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-07 01:33:10 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> would we be better off without undefined and error and other bottoms? could we guarantee totality (modulo termination)?
2024-11-07 01:34:07 +0100 <geekosaur> no, because there are other ways to get bottoms any time there are external inputs
2024-11-07 01:35:54 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-07 01:36:06 +0100 <geekosaur> too many bottoms, thanks to whoever thought it was a brilliant idea to throw an exception (which is a bottom) on file not found etc.
2024-11-07 01:39:46 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
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2024-11-07 01:46:34 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-07 01:51:44 +0100troojg(~troojg@user/troojg) troojg
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2024-11-07 02:00:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> can't those exceptions be "caught" with something like `readFile :: IO (Either Exception FileContents)` ?
2024-11-07 02:00:56 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> (pseudocode)
2024-11-07 02:01:54 +0100LainExperiments(~LainExper@user/LainExperiments) LainExperiments
2024-11-07 02:02:24 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-07 02:09:42 +0100KaitoDaumoto(~Unity3D@user/kaitodaumoto) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-07 02:09:58 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> maybe i want to explore liquid haskell?
2024-11-07 02:14:08 +0100jero98772(~jero98772@2800:484:1d7c:cc00::3)
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2024-11-07 02:15:05 +0100notzmv(~daniel@user/notzmv) notzmv
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2024-11-07 02:17:47 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-07 02:20:06 +0100 <geekosaur> no, they're actual exceptions that must be caught in `IO` with `catch` or `handle` etc.
2024-11-07 02:21:01 +0100 <dolio> Well, you could restructure everything to return explicit failures. However, the problem is that that isn't necessarily a good idea.
2024-11-07 02:22:40 +0100 <geekosaur> as long as exceptions are a trainwreck, I can't see it being worse
2024-11-07 02:23:48 +0100 <dolio> That's very naive.
2024-11-07 02:24:54 +0100 <geekosaur> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2014-September/023675.html
2024-11-07 02:25:09 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-11-07 02:25:11 +0100 <geekosaur> you're likely to leak with any exception
2024-11-07 02:25:25 +0100 <geekosaur> synchronous exceptions were a fundamental mistake
2024-11-07 02:26:35 +0100LainExperiments(~LainExper@user/LainExperiments) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-11-07 02:29:41 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-07 02:29:46 +0100LainExperiments(~LainExper@user/LainExperiments) LainExperiments
2024-11-07 02:35:50 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-07 02:38:52 +0100 <dolio> If you mean asynchronous exceptions, then you are unnecessarily conflating that with other aspects of the exception API.
2024-11-07 02:39:52 +0100 <dolio> E.G. if you don't want to locally handle an explicit `Either` result, then you need to use a monad transformer or something.
2024-11-07 02:40:29 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-11-07 02:42:02 +0100 <dolio> Which is possible, but then you probably have a lot of lifting and lowering to do. And also, the transformer will probably have abysmal performance characteristics, because it will repeatedly be building and inspecting Either values for the expected common case of not having an exception.
2024-11-07 02:46:40 +0100 <dolio> For scenarios where exceptions are actually exceptional, you want an alternate implementation, like continuations for algebraic effects, so that you just install a handler once and you only jump out to it when there actually is an exception. It's technically the same 'type,' but one implementation is far superior for how it will likely be used.
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2024-11-07 02:54:18 +0100 <Leary> We could (and imo should) have unchecked panics (anywhere) and statically checked exceptions (IO/ST only) with `IO/ST :: [Exception] -> Type -> Type` uniting exception sets in `<*>`/`>>=` while `try`/`catch` delete one and `main :: IO [] (); runST :: (forall s. ST [] a) -> a`. Interruptible operations would necessarily include async exceptions in the type-level list of exceptions they might throw. The actual implementation would be essentially unchanged
2024-11-07 02:54:18 +0100 <Leary> , the interface would just be more strongly typed.
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