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| 2024-11-06 00:58:37 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
| 2024-11-06 01:01:15 +0100 | notzmv | (~daniel@user/notzmv) notzmv |
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| 2024-11-06 01:13:22 +0100 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) troojg |
| 2024-11-06 01:13:28 +0100 | Versality | (~Versality@user/Versality) Versality |
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| 2024-11-06 01:21:39 +0100 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2024-11-06 01:22:51 +0100 | <jackdk> | Standards pricing is just obscene, TBQH. There has to be a way to compensate experts for their work without certain companies getting to overcharge for ancient documents forever. |
| 2024-11-06 01:23:26 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-11-06 01:28:22 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty) |
| 2024-11-06 01:31:36 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:fc69:912f:320c:e811) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-11-06 01:32:02 +0100 | CoolMa7 | (~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7 |
| 2024-11-06 01:34:09 +0100 | <constxd> | mauke: my understanding is wg14 intentionally makes drafts public that are as close as possible to the final revision to circumvent the ISO pricing absurdity |
| 2024-11-06 01:34:38 +0100 | <constxd> | i was reading somewhere that they are like grandfathered in, most ISO standards have tighter restrictions on what can be released as a draft |
| 2024-11-06 01:34:51 +0100 | <constxd> | but basically there is no reason to buy the C standard |
| 2024-11-06 01:39:13 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-11-06 01:43:47 +0100 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:b40:1889:d9bf:2dd8:b288) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 2024-11-06 01:47:33 +0100 | Versality | (~Versality@84.237.180.62) |
| 2024-11-06 01:47:33 +0100 | Versality | (~Versality@84.237.180.62) (Changing host) |
| 2024-11-06 01:47:33 +0100 | Versality | (~Versality@user/Versality) Versality |
| 2024-11-06 01:48:18 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <zwro> is there a way to save the current ghci session? |
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| 2024-11-06 01:53:15 +0100 | Versality | (~Versality@84.237.180.62) |
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| 2024-11-06 01:53:15 +0100 | Versality | (~Versality@user/Versality) Versality |
| 2024-11-06 01:55:16 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-11-06 01:58:32 +0100 | <monochrom> | I am not even convinced that the authors of the standards are compensated at all. |
| 2024-11-06 01:59:21 +0100 | <monochrom> | Right? I'm taking inspiration from the way academic journals work. The journal publishers get all the money. The editors and the peer reviewers do it all for free. |
| 2024-11-06 01:59:59 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-11-06 02:00:03 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en) |
| 2024-11-06 02:01:40 +0100 | <monochrom> | To the point even Knuth is sufficiently fed up to write an article to complain and advocate everyone to jump ship and start free online journals. |
| 2024-11-06 02:03:28 +0100 | <monochrom> | zwro: There is no plan to follow Python absurdity and evolve GHCi into its own IDE. |
| 2024-11-06 02:03:31 +0100 | <constxd> | yes i think the actual members of the ISO working groups are essentially volunteers |
| 2024-11-06 02:04:14 +0100 | <constxd> | what do u mean python absurdity? ipython? |
| 2024-11-06 02:05:35 +0100 | notzmv | (~daniel@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-06 02:06:35 +0100 | Versality | (~Versality@user/Versality) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-06 02:07:59 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <zwro> monochrom: (: https://nbviewer.org/github/gibiansky/IHaskell/blob/master/notebooks/IHaskell.ipynb |
| 2024-11-06 02:08:19 +0100 | Guest7 | (~Guest7@137.79.192.219) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-11-06 02:09:57 +0100 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Read error: Connection timed out) |
| 2024-11-06 02:10:16 +0100 | <zero> | anyways i just want something like node's repl where it basically saves the session history to a file. i guess i can go edit .ghci_history manually... |
| 2024-11-06 02:10:50 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-11-06 02:11:22 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> zero: there has been a blog post or two about a way to save/restore ghci state, by chris done I think |
| 2024-11-06 02:12:18 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://chrisdone.com/posts/ghci-reload maybe |
| 2024-11-06 02:12:57 +0100 | <monochrom> | constxd: This: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/multiline-interpreter-with-editing-of-previous-lines/10551 |
| 2024-11-06 02:13:29 +0100 | <monochrom> | tl;dr the python REPL is now its own editor. |
| 2024-11-06 02:14:29 +0100 | <monochrom> | This is different from iPython and iHaskell. I have no quarrel with them. |
| 2024-11-06 02:14:37 +0100 | <constxd> | ah |
| 2024-11-06 02:15:26 +0100 | <monochrom> | Instead, since iPython and iHaskell exist, there is no point duplicating the effort in the basic REPL. |
| 2024-11-06 02:15:41 +0100 | <zero> | ooh is this hot reloading? |
| 2024-11-06 02:15:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-11-06 02:16:33 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> try it out, let us know ? |
| 2024-11-06 02:16:53 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> +how it goes |
| 2024-11-06 02:18:15 +0100 | <constxd> | wouldn't be the end of the world imo if it's "for free" by virtue of being built into libreadline or something |
| 2024-11-06 02:18:35 +0100 | <constxd> | but yeah i wouldn't want to implement that and maintain it as a part of a REPL |
| 2024-11-06 02:18:36 +0100 | <monochrom> | In the particular case of GHCi, given that dev time is a zero-sum game, when (not if, it's a certainty) the devs have to choose between improving GHCi's debugger and adding an editor to GHCi, why would anyone want the latter? Isn't debugger a much higher priority? Editors already exist, plentiifully. |
| 2024-11-06 02:19:35 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> dev time doesn't always have to be zero sum in FOSS.. motivated new devs / funders sometimes show up |
| 2024-11-06 02:19:53 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> just saying |
| 2024-11-06 02:21:59 +0100 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-11-06 02:22:07 +0100 | CoolMa7 | (~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7 |
| 2024-11-06 02:23:51 +0100 | <zero> | foreign-store is hacky. i would be more interested in something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rapid-0.1.4/docs/Rapid.html |
| 2024-11-06 02:24:50 +0100 | <zero> | which wraps it "nicely" |
| 2024-11-06 02:24:54 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I could imagine integrating an already-maintained TUI editor (yi ?) could also be the way to improve GHCI's debugger, because a more visual UI is what it needs |
| 2024-11-06 02:25:15 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or anyway, _a_ way |
| 2024-11-06 02:25:50 +0100 | postcerebral | (~postcereb@user/postcerebral) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.2) |
| 2024-11-06 02:25:51 +0100 | <monochrom> | In practice, that doesn't happen often enough in the Haskell community. Look at how GHCi debugger has not received any further work, and how HLS still doesn't have any debugger. Even the GHCup effort is wearing thin and the guy is complaining: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/priorities-for-upcoming-ghc-releases/9605/60 |
| 2024-11-06 02:26:12 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-11-06 02:26:26 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and sometimes a monolithic just works out of box tool is the only thing that'll get used |
| 2024-11-06 02:26:29 +0100 | CoolMa7 | (~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-06 02:26:43 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I promise you this one would |
| 2024-11-06 02:26:47 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2024-11-06 02:28:12 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I have got the VS Code debugger extension working once, and it was so fragile and little known that pretty much no-one else will |
| 2024-11-06 02:29:18 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> a built in cheaper just works ui could help build the foundation |
| 2024-11-06 02:30:36 +0100 | <monochrom> | https://ro-che.info/ccc/26 |
| 2024-11-06 02:32:19 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I think in this cartoon, something is missing from the company's offering. We just don't know what it is :) |
| 2024-11-06 02:33:05 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-06 02:33:11 +0100 | <monochrom> | IIRC the company is precisely FPComplete. |
| 2024-11-06 02:34:23 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Ok. That IDE was good as I recall ! Lots of people had a beef with FP Complete so it had an uphill path. |
| 2024-11-06 02:34:26 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Not a debugger thought |
| 2024-11-06 02:34:51 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * UI though, that's what I'm thinking of particularly |
| 2024-11-06 02:35:30 +0100 | <monochrom> | Debugger is extremely hard. I don't really complain about lacking it. |
| 2024-11-06 02:36:00 +0100 | <monochrom> | OTOH, a nice IDE that lacks debugging feels like lacking a soul. |
| 2024-11-06 02:36:19 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> It doesn't seem _that_ hard. GHCI already has the core of it, and https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=phoityne.phoityne-vscode is an example of a UI on top |
| 2024-11-06 02:38:45 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> someone could whip that up in brick |
| 2024-11-06 02:39:41 +0100 | <monochrom> | Oh it's an extreme case of the 80-20 rule. Or at this extreme it's like a 99.99-0.01 rule. Hat, Buddha, GHCi, and that plug in prove that prototyping a Haskell debugger is easy, sure, and at the same time by their incompleteness and even bitrot, also prove that actually covering all of Haskell is way too annoying for anyone to finish it. |
| 2024-11-06 02:39:52 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> wait, didn't I see that already... |
| 2024-11-06 02:41:14 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> monochrom: I think those things prove that packaging and integration are also necessary.. so all of those are dead.. except the debugger built in to GHCI, which works perfectly (or anyway, works) |
| 2024-11-06 02:41:26 +0100 | <monochrom> | The cartoon? Yes I always link to it to rub it into people's faces. |
| 2024-11-06 02:41:54 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I did see a more recent brick based debugger ui. I'd find it, if hackage wasn't down just now |
| 2024-11-06 02:42:18 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <zwro> what can an IDE provide that a language server can't? |
| 2024-11-06 02:42:31 +0100 | <monochrom> | A face? :) |
| 2024-11-06 02:42:58 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <zwro> I don't think people like changing editors just for the language |
| 2024-11-06 02:43:04 +0100 | <monochrom> | I talked about lacking a soul, but when you do have a soul, it needs a body too... |
| 2024-11-06 02:43:07 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> a language server is a small internal component that lets IDEs communicate with the language tools |