2024/10/07

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2024-10-07 01:24:28 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) LukeHoersten
2024-10-07 01:27:09 +0200 <L29Ah> are there weights-available LLMs that can do haskell programming?
2024-10-07 01:30:05 +0200myxokephale(~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: myxokephale)
2024-10-07 01:32:00 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-07 01:32:08 +0200 <Inst> afaik ChatGPT haskell programming is primitive, and apparently studies show that AI-assisted programming is net negative for productivity as of now
2024-10-07 01:34:09 +0200 <monochrom> You can raise or lower the bar on "can". >:)
2024-10-07 01:34:33 +0200 <monochrom> But public LLMs are going to be a bit better than most beginners.
2024-10-07 01:35:06 +0200 <monochrom> That just relies on the definition of "beginner" cf. the Dunning-Kruger effect.
2024-10-07 01:36:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-10-07 01:43:35 +0200 <L29Ah> Inst: yeah i know, i was mildly curious on whether one can make it produce complete (a little over ACME quality) libraries with cabal packages with some scripting and prompting
2024-10-07 01:44:06 +0200 <Inst> why would it be more likely to be able to do this for Haskell than it would be able to do this for Rust, C+=, or for that matter, Python?
2024-10-07 01:44:48 +0200 <L29Ah> it's not about likelyhood, it's about my desire to do haskell things instead of the sloppy languages
2024-10-07 01:45:08 +0200L29Ahhides
2024-10-07 01:46:59 +0200 <L29Ah> with haskell there can be a more sensible generate-compile-run-prompt loop as it's harder to produce running-yet-broken code
2024-10-07 01:47:15 +0200 <Inst> also type information, and iirc work on Agda2hs program derivation
2024-10-07 01:47:27 +0200 <L29Ah> and one can pester llm to produce test cases too to catch all the stupid errors programmatically
2024-10-07 01:47:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-07 01:48:03 +0200 <Inst> i'm wondering if LLM would have an easier time converting a domain into Agda types, then using Agda facilities to pound out a Haskell program
2024-10-07 01:48:11 +0200 <Inst> but afaik Haskell generated by Agda is unreadable
2024-10-07 01:48:12 +0200 <L29Ah> so ideally one converts a PC into a heater that hopefully produces working libraries once in a while :>
2024-10-07 01:48:38 +0200 <L29Ah> true programming laziness
2024-10-07 01:49:17 +0200 <L29Ah> implying llms can utilize boring things like file format specs
2024-10-07 01:51:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-07 01:57:51 +0200myxos(~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com) myxokephale
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2024-10-07 02:30:44 +0200Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-10-07 02:31:43 +0200Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) Inst
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2024-10-07 02:36:21 +0200Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2024-10-07 02:46:44 +0200Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
2024-10-07 02:47:04 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:16eb:2432:285b:7ea6) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-10-07 02:49:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-07 02:53:32 +0200EvanR_EvanR
2024-10-07 02:53:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-07 02:58:09 +0200 <yin> what am i looking at here? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.11.0/docs/src/GHC.Prim.html#readTVar%23
2024-10-07 02:58:50 +0200 <yin> what does it mean for a function# to be defined as itself?
2024-10-07 02:59:24 +0200 <yin> is it just "magic" and we need the definition for the type signature?
2024-10-07 02:59:33 +0200ethantwardy(user@user/ethantwardy) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-10-07 03:00:46 +0200 <geekosaur> everything in ghc-prim is "defined as itself", yes. it's just for documentation
2024-10-07 03:00:58 +0200 <geekosaur> the actual definitions are baked into the compiler or backend
2024-10-07 03:01:09 +0200 <geekosaur> necessarily
2024-10-07 03:01:10 +0200 <yin> ok great, thanks
2024-10-07 03:02:10 +0200 <yin> i wish all code was haskell all the way down to binary
2024-10-07 03:02:11 +0200fmira(~user@user/fmira) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-10-07 03:03:16 +0200 <yin> hits the magic way too soon
2024-10-07 03:04:49 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-07 03:04:57 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-10-07 03:06:37 +0200 <geekosaur> how exactly do you write the platform's add instruction in haskell code?
2024-10-07 03:06:45 +0200spew(~spew@201.141.99.170) spew
2024-10-07 03:07:02 +0200 <geekosaur> (the answer is: `+#` and the backend emits the actual instruction)
2024-10-07 03:07:13 +0200 <geekosaur> the ones that aren;t that are mostly cmm code
2024-10-07 03:09:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-07 03:15:56 +0200ethantwardy(user@user/ethantwardy) ethantwardy
2024-10-07 03:20:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-10-07 03:25:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2024-10-07 03:36:19 +0200 <EvanR> if the library was implemented in stuff that is eventually implemented in "haskell looking" assembly language, that would probably make optimizations harder. Because we only care about the high level semantics, not the exact sequence of instructions used
2024-10-07 03:36:50 +0200 <EvanR> it's harder for the compiler to know another sequence of asm computes the same high level values
2024-10-07 03:37:41 +0200 <EvanR> and if it can, and will rewrite it all, what was the point
2024-10-07 03:37:45 +0200 <EvanR> of writing a bunch of asm
2024-10-07 03:38:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-07 03:39:01 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2024-10-07 03:41:58 +0200 <monochrom> As Dennis Ritchie pointed out half a century ago, library source code means nothing if the compiler contains code to overrule it.
2024-10-07 03:43:14 +0200morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2024-10-07 03:44:55 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2024-10-07 03:45:47 +0200 <monochrom> Not to mention that in the 1980s commercial compilers recognized popular benchmarking code and cheated.
2024-10-07 03:46:56 +0200 <monochrom> (Probably part of why the benchmarks had to change every year.)
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2024-10-07 04:03:25 +0200Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) Inst
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2024-10-07 04:23:08 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> L29Ah wouldn't recommend an LLM but rather something trained with Reinforcement Learning with the help of types, should get way better result and make zero type errors
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2024-10-07 05:46:16 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-07 05:46:46 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2024-10-07 05:56:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> what's a restriction on w-types that would get us all w-types that are traversable in a finite number of operations?
2024-10-07 05:59:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2024-10-07 06:08:40 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> According to https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/W-type every W type should be traversable in a finite number of steps
2024-10-07 06:10:29 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I mean, they represent well orders constructively
2024-10-07 06:10:33 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-07 06:12:13 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Every well ordered set has a least element and thus induction over the well order always terminates (assuming strong normalization outside of the W types)
2024-10-07 06:12:34 +0200user4561(~user4561@2800:2168:2400:6d3:cc84:7854:e2f5:af98)
2024-10-07 06:12:54 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Inducting in the direction of the least element of course, like induction on the natural numbers
2024-10-07 06:15:21 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> M types are the coinductive (thus possibly infinite) ones
2024-10-07 06:15:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-10-07 06:20:56 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: hm issue is well-ordered trees can have infinite branches
2024-10-07 06:21:13 +0200youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) youthlic
2024-10-07 06:21:46 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Oh yeah forgot about that
2024-10-07 06:22:06 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> so it works for induction but i'm trying to get at computable traversal
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2024-10-07 06:23:04 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-10-07 06:23:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh i meant wellfounded
2024-10-07 06:24:13 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i'm not 100% how this translates to wellfoundedness
2024-10-07 06:25:43 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> yeah wellordered trees are less structured than wellfounded trees, only the latter must have finite chains
2024-10-07 06:25:48 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Not sure why can the trees be infinitely wide if the relation is a total order with a minimum element
2024-10-07 06:26:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-07 06:26:33 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: totally ordered tree is just N
2024-10-07 06:27:51 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.217)
2024-10-07 06:28:28 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/well-order assumes classical reasoning a lot lmao
2024-10-07 06:30:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-07 06:31:43 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> So W-types are supposed to be a constructive counterpart to sets with a well founded irreflexive total order
2024-10-07 06:32:55 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm i think we do not want well-order
2024-10-07 06:33:08 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> because that make the tree = N
2024-10-07 06:33:16 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> or a subset
2024-10-07 06:33:26 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> we want wellfoundedness
2024-10-07 06:34:29 +0200user4561(~user4561@2800:2168:2400:6d3:cc84:7854:e2f5:af98)
2024-10-07 06:35:01 +0200user4561myNameIs
2024-10-07 06:35:23 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The "constructiveness" is what seems to make the trees possibly infinitely wide
2024-10-07 06:35:44 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: even in classical logic i think we get that wellfounded trees can be infinitely wide
2024-10-07 06:36:29 +0200alp_(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:f5b0:cd1b:e895:cf8a) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-07 06:36:50 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I do not understand this topic enough yet lol, lemme learn how this works first
2024-10-07 06:37:03 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Btw this question is probably suitable for the HoTT Zulip
2024-10-07 06:37:04 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> concretely wellfounded tree only implies that, given any chain of elements, that chain terminates. but it doesn't state anything about how many chains there can be
2024-10-07 06:37:48 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: ah good point, ty
2024-10-07 06:37:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i haven't gone on there yet did not know it existed
2024-10-07 06:40:39 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Yeah, lots of smart people there. Had a question about positivity and negativity of universes, they solved it fairly quickly and directed everyone with a similar question to other stuff that I yet don't understand
2024-10-07 06:40:54 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Oh wait the HoTT book may say something about W types lemme check
2024-10-07 06:41:40 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-07 06:42:44 +0200youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Quit: youthlic)
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2024-10-07 07:15:34 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya It has an entire section on them (5.3), short answer, if you have a W type "W (a : A) B(a)" you just have to make every result of "B(a)" a finite type
2024-10-07 07:17:12 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-07 07:17:21 +0200takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2024-10-07 07:17:55 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Quoting, "The W type "W (a : A) B(a)" can thus be thought of as the type of well-founded trees, where nodes are labeled by elements of "A" and each node labeled by "a : A" has "B(a)"-many branches"
2024-10-07 07:18:02 +0200alp_(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:c0b2:cecc:790e:8587)
2024-10-07 07:19:50 +0200 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> am reading
2024-10-07 07:20:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> So if every "B(a)" corresponds to a type with a finite amount of constructors (like an n-Set or "Fin n"), every node must have a finite amount of branches, thus becoming finitely wide and fully traversable in a finite amount of steps
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2024-10-07 07:30:06 +0200andrewboltachev(~andrey@178.141.123.3) andrewboltachev
2024-10-07 07:30:11 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-10-07 07:32:47 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> This also makes me think, is directly going for recursion schemes a good way to do recursion on my language's design? Maybe I should try some other concepts before getting into adding potentially unnecessary features to it
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2024-10-07 07:34:07 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Maybe the overhead of switching from System F to System F omega on the interpreter is not as high as I expected. After all, smalltt has an even more powerful base yet is super fast
2024-10-07 07:34:28 +0200youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) youthlic
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2024-10-07 07:39:16 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> F omega would allow me to introduce recursion with a type level size via some magic and cool interactions between features, as well as an effect system based on the Van Laarhoven Free Monad (similar to https://aaronlevin.ca/post/136494428283/extensible-effects-in-the-van-laarhoven-free-monad)
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2024-10-07 10:03:06 +0200famubu(~julinuser@14.139.174.50) famubu
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2024-10-07 10:03:06 +0200famubu(~julinuser@user/famubu) famubu
2024-10-07 10:04:17 +0200 <famubu> Hi. In hedgehog, is there a way to generate n unqiue samples? We can use `Gen.sample` to get one sample. But using it repeatedly could give non-uniques samples.
2024-10-07 10:04:20 +0200 <famubu> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hedgehog-1.5/docs/Hedgehog-Gen.html#v:sample
2024-10-07 10:05:50 +0200 <jle`> famubu: i wonder if you can use the Set generator
2024-10-07 10:06:16 +0200 <jle`> it doesn't do anything smart afaict
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