| 2024-10-06 00:02:01 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Quit: quit) |
| 2024-10-06 00:02:32 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-10-06 00:05:06 +0200 | gvg_ | (~dcd@user/gvg) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 00:10:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-06 00:19:41 +0200 | fmira | (~user@user/fmira) (Quit: fmira) |
| 2024-10-06 00:25:29 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 00:26:46 +0200 | <Inst> | interesting, tbh, i thought tuple arguments were unidiomatic in haskell |
| 2024-10-06 00:27:24 +0200 | <Inst> | but it turns out that if you're doing recursion over a function that produces a tuple, it's actually pretty ideal |
| 2024-10-06 00:28:28 +0200 | <Inst> | are there any existing dynamic vector libraries built over vector? |
| 2024-10-06 00:29:16 +0200 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dynamic-mvector-0.1.0.5 |
| 2024-10-06 00:29:26 +0200 | <Inst> | andras kovacs hasn't updated that recently |
| 2024-10-06 00:29:56 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 00:32:44 +0200 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.110.81) son0p |
| 2024-10-06 00:34:56 +0200 | EvanR_ | (~EvanR@user/evanr) EvanR |
| 2024-10-06 00:34:56 +0200 | EvanR | (~EvanR@user/evanr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 00:40:53 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 00:41:09 +0200 | spew | (~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::edd7) spew |
| 2024-10-06 00:41:52 +0200 | andrewboltachev | (~andrey@178.141.123.3) andrewboltachev |
| 2024-10-06 00:42:23 +0200 | <andrewboltachev> | Hello. Does anyone have modern example for https://www.tweag.io/blog/2019-05-09-inline-js/ ? many things have changed, e.g. withJSSession -> withSession etc |
| 2024-10-06 00:43:20 +0200 | EvanR_ | EvanR |
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| 2024-10-06 00:48:43 +0200 | supercode | (~supercode@user/supercode) supercode |
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| 2024-10-06 01:44:29 +0200 | Me-me | (~me-me@kc.randomserver.name) (Changing host) |
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| 2024-10-06 02:04:44 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
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| 2024-10-06 03:03:50 +0200 | user_ | (~user@user/fmira) fmira |
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| 2024-10-06 03:25:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 03:29:44 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
| 2024-10-06 03:30:15 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 03:41:17 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-06 03:49:34 +0200 | <L29Ah> | https://www.wired.com/story/neo-nazis-flee-telegram-encrypted-app-simplex/ haskell went to the masses |
| 2024-10-06 03:55:20 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-10-06 03:56:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 03:57:56 +0200 | <EvanR> | but does it use blockchain |
| 2024-10-06 03:58:01 +0200 | <EvanR> | otherwise, literally unusable |
| 2024-10-06 03:59:21 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 04:00:32 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 04:00:54 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) califx |
| 2024-10-06 04:01:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 04:02:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> kind of sorry I recommended simplex the other day, now |
| 2024-10-06 04:03:34 +0200 | <dmj`> | so this is why we avoid success at all costs |
| 2024-10-06 04:03:57 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> hopefully that person will use it for good |
| 2024-10-06 04:04:07 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-10-06 04:05:03 +0200 | op_4 | (~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 04:05:10 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> these failures to avoid success seem to be getting more frequent >:/ |
| 2024-10-06 04:05:34 +0200 | op_4 | (~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) op_4 |
| 2024-10-06 04:06:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> now of course this can also be propaganda against untappable chat tech |
| 2024-10-06 04:07:36 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * an untappable chat app |
| 2024-10-06 04:08:08 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 04:10:45 +0200 | nadja | (~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 04:10:56 +0200 | nadja | (~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) dequbed |
| 2024-10-06 04:11:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | I find it hard to believe it absolutely hides your identity |
| 2024-10-06 04:12:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 04:13:37 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> considering it's so secure, wired seems to know a lot about what people are doing on SimpleX |
| 2024-10-06 04:14:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> anyway. moving on |
| 2024-10-06 04:16:48 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870937.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 04:18:10 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i5387093A.versanet.de) |
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| 2024-10-06 04:19:55 +0200 | dyniec | (~dyniec@dybiec.info) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2) |
| 2024-10-06 04:32:05 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 04:35:10 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
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| 2024-10-06 04:42:34 +0200 | terrorjack4 | (~terrorjac@static.48.15.202.116.clients.your-server.de) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2024-10-06 04:43:44 +0200 | Cale | (~cale@2607:fea8:995f:f126:15c3:35a5:81ac:187c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-06 04:44:18 +0200 | terrorjack4 | (~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:c17:dc9f::) terrorjack |
| 2024-10-06 04:49:25 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 04:50:51 +0200 | athan | (~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
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| 2024-10-06 05:06:08 +0200 | superstar64 | (~superstar@2600:1700:ed80:50a0:d250:99ff:fe2c:53c4) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-10-06 05:06:15 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-06 05:17:35 +0200 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) troojg |
| 2024-10-06 05:22:12 +0200 | forell_ | (~forell@host-178-216-90-220.sta.tvknaszapraca.pl) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-10-06 05:22:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 05:23:04 +0200 | forell | (~forell@user/forell) forell |
| 2024-10-06 05:27:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 05:28:36 +0200 | spew | (~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::edd7) (Quit: spew) |
| 2024-10-06 05:36:37 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-10-06 05:36:38 +0200 | <user_> | EvanR: the protocol is pretty sane but currently theres an issue that most people just use the main simplex servers for message delivery so they can still analyze where messages go and of course even in decentralized situations there can be collusion |
| 2024-10-06 05:36:46 +0200 | <user_> | wait why am i user_ |
| 2024-10-06 05:36:50 +0200 | <user_> | brb.... |
| 2024-10-06 05:37:03 +0200 | user_ | (~user@user/fmira) (Quit: user_) |
| 2024-10-06 05:37:04 +0200 | <EvanR> | user_ error |
| 2024-10-06 05:37:19 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2024-10-06 05:37:24 +0200 | fmira | (~user@user/fmira) fmira |
| 2024-10-06 05:39:22 +0200 | <fmira> | okay thats better, so theres still the risk of message delivery not being safe from analysis but the e2ee itself is pretty solid iirc, i think they even used dependent types to prove that the cryptography is solid iirc |
| 2024-10-06 05:39:35 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 05:40:39 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 05:42:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | o_O |
| 2024-10-06 05:43:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | sounds cool |
| 2024-10-06 05:43:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | xcept for the nazis |
| 2024-10-06 05:44:10 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 05:44:54 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 05:45:13 +0200 | <Inst> | how does simplex plan to make money? |
| 2024-10-06 05:45:39 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2024-10-06 05:55:21 +0200 | <fmira> | Inst: good question honestly, theyre vc funded |
| 2024-10-06 05:55:32 +0200 | <fmira> | im guessing they'll at some point enshittify the whole thing |
| 2024-10-06 05:56:19 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 05:59:11 +0200 | athan | (~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) athan |
| 2024-10-06 06:04:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 06:06:13 +0200 | <Axman6> | There's no easy way to ignore shadowing warnings for one function right? I've got a do block where I want to reuse a name multiple times as the value gets 'updated' (a ghetto state monad really) |
| 2024-10-06 06:08:17 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | racist |
| 2024-10-06 06:13:35 +0200 | <ghoulguy> | Axman6: not that I know of |
| 2024-10-06 06:13:38 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty) |
| 2024-10-06 06:15:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 06:20:12 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 06:26:30 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-10-06 06:33:12 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 06:38:06 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2024-10-06 06:40:22 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) youthlic |
| 2024-10-06 06:42:04 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 06:43:49 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-10-06 06:46:01 +0200 | falafel | (~falafel@198.101.119.52) falafel |
| 2024-10-06 06:46:33 +0200 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 06:47:32 +0200 | finn_elija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) finn_elija |
| 2024-10-06 06:47:32 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija))) |
| 2024-10-06 06:47:32 +0200 | finn_elija | FinnElija |
| 2024-10-06 06:49:23 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 06:52:44 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 06:52:53 +0200 | falafel | (~falafel@198.101.119.52) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 06:53:28 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-10-06 06:53:50 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 07:00:34 +0200 | wanted | (~wanted@2.219.56.221) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 07:03:42 +0200 | <Axman6> | GHC needs #pragma push and #pragma pop |
| 2024-10-06 07:04:58 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 07:05:22 +0200 | <geekosaur> | supposedly there's work to make warnings more fine-grained, but I don't know the status |
| 2024-10-06 07:06:13 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 07:11:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 07:18:18 +0200 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) troojg |
| 2024-10-06 07:23:42 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 07:25:03 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 07:25:46 +0200 | athan | (~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2024-10-06 07:28:21 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 07:30:30 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 07:32:25 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 07:32:35 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 2024-10-06 07:37:48 +0200 | spew | (~spew@201.141.99.170) spew |
| 2024-10-06 07:38:55 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 07:39:07 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2024-10-06 07:40:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 07:41:03 +0200 | wanted | (~wanted@2.219.56.221) |
| 2024-10-06 07:45:21 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 07:45:27 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-10-06 07:51:50 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 2024-10-06 07:52:59 +0200 | spew | (~spew@201.141.99.170) (Quit: spew) |
| 2024-10-06 07:56:04 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@183.171.107.70) rosco |
| 2024-10-06 07:56:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 07:57:10 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-10-06 07:57:19 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Quit: youthlic) |
| 2024-10-06 08:05:05 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 08:07:54 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:858f:f870:90c:1b39) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 08:08:13 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) youthlic |
| 2024-10-06 08:08:13 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-10-06 08:10:21 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 08:13:45 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:943:dffd:9430:e374) |
| 2024-10-06 08:18:26 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 08:22:56 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 08:28:29 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 08:36:17 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 08:39:41 +0200 | adanwan_ | (~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 08:40:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 08:48:37 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
| 2024-10-06 08:49:35 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-10-06 08:50:42 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
| 2024-10-06 08:54:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 08:55:08 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone got a good intro for domain-theoretic semantic of recursive types? |
| 2024-10-06 08:58:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 09:00:00 +0200 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2024-10-06 09:00:02 +0200 | tt123109783243 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2024-10-06 09:00:35 +0200 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2024-10-06 09:03:25 +0200 | tt123109783243 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) tt1231 |
| 2024-10-06 09:09:40 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-10-06 09:12:11 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 09:12:33 +0200 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 09:14:42 +0200 | econo_ | (uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-10-06 09:16:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 09:19:01 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-10-06 09:22:14 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2024-10-06 09:24:07 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot |
| 2024-10-06 09:25:38 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:3afa:9370:887b:74f7) |
| 2024-10-06 09:28:03 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 09:32:23 +0200 | <Inst> | axman6: why can't you just stuff ' or numbers at the end? |
| 2024-10-06 09:32:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 09:33:05 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 09:33:34 +0200 | <Axman6> | because that makes it much harder to see that the code is correct, there could be an error anywhere and adding something in the middle means updating everything afterwards |
| 2024-10-06 09:36:05 +0200 | hiecaq | (~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) (Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.4)) |
| 2024-10-06 09:38:31 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:3afa:9370:887b:74f7) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 09:38:39 +0200 | hiecaq | (~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) hiecaq |
| 2024-10-06 09:40:39 +0200 | hiecaq | (~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-10-06 09:42:41 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:464:f400:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen |
| 2024-10-06 09:43:22 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb9670d70e28f87691c4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2024-10-06 09:44:09 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@183.171.107.70) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-10-06 09:45:10 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar |
| 2024-10-06 09:45:22 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 09:45:28 +0200 | andrewboltachev | (~andrey@178.141.123.3) andrewboltachev |
| 2024-10-06 09:49:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 09:58:02 +0200 | hiecaq | (~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) hiecaq |
| 2024-10-06 10:02:20 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 10:03:37 +0200 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
| 2024-10-06 10:05:45 +0200 | <jackdk> | it would be neat if you didn't get shadowing warnings for bindings consumed by a linear arrow |
| 2024-10-06 10:06:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 10:13:22 +0200 | artu | (~artu@2601:600:8181:9b00::14) artu |
| 2024-10-06 10:18:50 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 10:19:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 10:24:18 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 10:24:43 +0200 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@178.165.166.66.wireless.dyn.drei.com) ubert |
| 2024-10-06 10:25:08 +0200 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@178.165.166.66.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 10:28:42 +0200 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en |
| 2024-10-06 10:29:09 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:464:f400:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 10:29:18 +0200 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
| 2024-10-06 10:35:31 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb9670d70e28f87691c4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-06 10:37:20 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 10:39:20 +0200 | <artu> | I tried to evaluate `count :: Int` in GHCi but got an error "Variable not in scope count :: Int". I want to try out haskell's full features on the REPL without creating a file or project. Any advice on that how can I achieve this interactively? |
| 2024-10-06 10:39:49 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb9628aff41673680d4c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2024-10-06 10:41:33 +0200 | Digitteknohippie | (~user@user/digit) Digit |
| 2024-10-06 10:41:49 +0200 | Digit | (~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 10:41:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 10:43:30 +0200 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en) |
| 2024-10-06 10:44:06 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 2024-10-06 10:44:46 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> did you define "count"? if not, you can't print it :P |
| 2024-10-06 10:46:19 +0200 | Digitteknohippie | (~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 10:47:16 +0200 | <artu> | doesn't this `count :: Int` claim/declare `count` as type `Int`? I'll define after the declaration. Apperantly I'm a noob here :) |
| 2024-10-06 10:48:45 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 10:50:19 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 10:50:51 +0200 | artu | (~artu@2601:600:8181:9b00::14) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.2) |
| 2024-10-06 10:50:52 +0200 | Digit | (~user@user/digit) Digit |
| 2024-10-06 10:51:44 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar |
| 2024-10-06 10:54:40 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 10:55:55 +0200 | fmira | (~user@user/fmira) (Quit: fmira) |
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| 2024-10-06 10:59:28 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-10-06 11:01:26 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:e21f:8806:679b:6ae1) |
| 2024-10-06 11:05:03 +0200 | andrewboltachev | (~andrey@178.141.123.3) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-10-06 11:07:53 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 11:12:39 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 11:12:42 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 11:16:27 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-10-06 11:25:19 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 11:27:21 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:e21f:8806:679b:6ae1) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 11:27:26 +0200 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en |
| 2024-10-06 11:29:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 11:31:57 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 11:32:53 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what guarantees that the least fixed point of a type-functor will produce finite data types? |
| 2024-10-06 11:35:00 +0200 | <ncf> | nothing |
| 2024-10-06 11:35:19 +0200 | <Lears> | thirdofmay: In Haskell, nothing. In System F, strong normalisation and program finiteness. |
| 2024-10-06 11:35:37 +0200 | <ncf> | the least fixed point of Const ℕ is infinite |
| 2024-10-06 11:36:06 +0200 | <ncf> | or 1 + — i guess |
| 2024-10-06 11:36:16 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm i see |
| 2024-10-06 11:36:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty for answers |
| 2024-10-06 11:37:54 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@183.171.72.164) rosco |
| 2024-10-06 11:38:23 +0200 | <Lears> | To be clear, "finite" here is ambiguous. If you mean data types of finite cardinality then the answer is still nothing in e.g. System F. I took you to mean data types with values of finite size. |
| 2024-10-06 11:39:48 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> yeah, I meant values of finite size |
| 2024-10-06 11:40:07 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> data types with values of finite size |
| 2024-10-06 11:40:22 +0200 | <ncf> | define size? |
| 2024-10-06 11:41:27 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 11:46:04 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 11:53:19 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:6ee5:dea:457b:d9d9) |
| 2024-10-06 11:57:05 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 11:58:50 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 11:59:08 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:943:dffd:9430:e374) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 11:59:59 +0200 | emmanuelux | (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux |
| 2024-10-06 12:00:35 +0200 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-06 12:01:38 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-10-06 12:03:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 12:11:01 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 12:13:11 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:6ee5:dea:457b:d9d9) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 12:14:39 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-10-06 12:16:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 12:21:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 12:23:10 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e9cd:7fb:f9ec:b14e) |
| 2024-10-06 12:23:56 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla |
| 2024-10-06 12:24:13 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | @tell artu you need :{ and :} to write multi-line definitions in ghci |
| 2024-10-06 12:24:13 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 2024-10-06 12:25:34 +0200 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.110.81) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 12:28:17 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2024-10-06 12:29:55 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:e481:13d5:7eb4:8f9d) |
| 2024-10-06 12:33:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 12:34:03 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) cyphase |
| 2024-10-06 12:37:44 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 12:38:35 +0200 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles |
| 2024-10-06 12:38:54 +0200 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, do you know any channel or forum dedicated to category theory and/or type theory? |
| 2024-10-06 12:40:54 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:e481:13d5:7eb4:8f9d) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 12:43:08 +0200 | <Hecate> | nope sorry |
| 2024-10-06 12:48:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 12:48:50 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2024-10-06 12:50:30 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:464:f400:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen |
| 2024-10-06 12:50:48 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-06 12:53:10 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 13:03:26 +0200 | mrmr155334346318 | (~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Quit: Bye, See ya later!) |
| 2024-10-06 13:04:36 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 13:09:17 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 13:09:18 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@183.171.72.164) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 13:18:07 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:7d60:3680:b7b6:7b2d) |
| 2024-10-06 13:22:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 13:26:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 13:29:13 +0200 | mrmr155334346318 | (~mrmr@user/mrmr) mrmr |
| 2024-10-06 13:38:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 13:40:32 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:7d60:3680:b7b6:7b2d) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 13:41:01 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-10-06 13:43:12 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 13:47:03 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-06 13:47:34 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue |
| 2024-10-06 13:56:38 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 13:58:54 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | lxsameer: there is ##dependent here but I'm not sure how appropriate it is |
| 2024-10-06 13:59:14 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | there is also #agda |
| 2024-10-06 14:00:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 14:01:54 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:464:f400:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 14:06:24 +0200 | <ncf> | and #categorytheory, to mention only IRC channels |
| 2024-10-06 14:09:26 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> is there a method to visibly quantify a class method? |
| 2024-10-06 14:09:41 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> like bitSize :: forall b -> Natural |
| 2024-10-06 14:10:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> this doesn't work due to the forall b -> introducing a new b and not visibly quantifiying the one already in scope |
| 2024-10-06 14:13:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 14:14:33 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e9cd:7fb:f9ec:b14e) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 14:15:47 +0200 | <int-e> | Not sure I understand, do you want https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/scoped_type_variables.html ? |
| 2024-10-06 14:16:26 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:16eb:2432:285b:7ea6) |
| 2024-10-06 14:16:36 +0200 | <int-e> | the full type of bitSize is forall a. Bits a => a -> Int |
| 2024-10-06 14:17:12 +0200 | <int-e> | and it's deprecated :P |
| 2024-10-06 14:17:23 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ScopedTypeVariables is DEPRECATED? |
| 2024-10-06 14:17:37 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> no i am making my own prelude/ standard library so my FiniteBits class has bitSize |
| 2024-10-06 14:17:55 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Proxy? |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:02 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that's the traditional method |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:02 +0200 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: no, bitSize is |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:04 +0200 | <int-e> | sorry |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ah I see |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:10 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | phew :p |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:12 +0200 | <int-e> | > bitSize (0 :: Integer) |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:13 +0200 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Data.Bits.bitSize(Integer) |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:14 +0200 | identity | (~identity@user/ZharMeny) identity |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:31 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | > finiteBitSize (0 :: Integer) |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:33 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:33 +0200 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (FiniteBits Integer) |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:33 +0200 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘finiteBitSize’ |
| 2024-10-06 14:18:38 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | right, that was the replacement |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:09 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | to what extent is visible forall already a thing in released GHCs? |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:41 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | :set -XRequiredTypeArguments |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:43 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | % :set -XRequiredTypeArguments |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:43 +0200 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | % f :: forall a -> a -> a ; f t x = x |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:51 +0200 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:54 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | % :t f Int |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:54 +0200 | <yahb2> | f Int :: Int -> Int |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:56 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | % :t f Bool |
| 2024-10-06 14:19:57 +0200 | <yahb2> | f Bool :: Bool -> Bool |
| 2024-10-06 14:20:02 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | eldritchcookie ^ |
| 2024-10-06 14:20:18 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ghc >= 9.10 though |
| 2024-10-06 14:20:53 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> yes but naively trying this on a class method doesn't work |
| 2024-10-06 14:21:10 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 2024-10-06 14:21:20 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | hm, lemme try |
| 2024-10-06 14:21:27 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> src/Qon/Bits.hs:25:3: error: [GHC-39999] |
| 2024-10-06 14:21:27 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/PkaCnRCyIJXsiIbMXlrywuss/bOMDyOoAcr8 (22 lines) |
| 2024-10-06 14:22:13 +0200 | <int-e> | heh, heisenbridge? |
| 2024-10-06 14:23:12 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | eldritchcookie: https://play.haskell.org/saved/6TcPRARS |
| 2024-10-06 14:23:27 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | admittedly it's a bit of a hack |
| 2024-10-06 14:24:18 +0200 | <int-e> | oh *that* was the question |
| 2024-10-06 14:27:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> yes its a hack but hopefully it is forward compatible what we wil do |
| 2024-10-06 14:29:36 +0200 | Digitteknohippie | (~user@user/digit) Digit |
| 2024-10-06 14:29:41 +0200 | Digit | (~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 14:29:52 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 14:30:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, something that doesn't require 9.10 is -XAllowAmbiguousTypes and require a type application |
| 2024-10-06 14:31:07 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | but with the downside that an unsuspecting user who forgets the type application will get ambiguous types |
| 2024-10-06 14:35:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 14:38:50 +0200 | mantraofpie | (~mantraofp@user/mantraofpie) mantraofpie |
| 2024-10-06 14:45:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 14:47:10 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:9437:9b0:9ccc:15a4) |
| 2024-10-06 14:47:42 +0200 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-10-06 14:47:50 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 14:48:15 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar |
| 2024-10-06 14:50:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 14:56:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 14:58:39 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: types i'm interested in are well-founded ones |
| 2024-10-06 15:13:41 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-10-06 15:14:00 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 15:15:28 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya you might want to look at well-founded trees, AKA W types |
| 2024-10-06 15:16:15 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: yeah those are what i'm thinking about |
| 2024-10-06 15:16:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> They are mostly present in dependent stuff so I don't know how useful they are in a practical sense |
| 2024-10-06 15:16:27 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 15:16:45 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 15:17:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> e.g. what sort of constraints do we need on the domain to guarantee a functor provides a w-type |
| 2024-10-06 15:18:42 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Termination and a size |
| 2024-10-06 15:19:10 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 15:19:27 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 15:20:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> You can also get sized types using Nat recursion over the type level, but unless you use singletons you can't iterate on that type |
| 2024-10-06 15:20:44 +0200 | <ncf> | W-types are initial algebras for polynomial endofunctors |
| 2024-10-06 15:21:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: is this true over Cpo? |
| 2024-10-06 15:23:44 +0200 | <ncf> | it is how they're defined. whether what you get is a "well-founded" object or not probably depends on the category and what you mean by that |
| 2024-10-06 15:23:51 +0200 | <ncf> | you should probably read the references at https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/W-type#CategoricalSemanticsOfWTypesReferences |
| 2024-10-06 15:24:36 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 15:25:36 +0200 | Achylles | (~Achylles@45.182.57.66) Achylles |
| 2024-10-06 15:26:15 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> i don't think they are w-types if they are not well-founded |
| 2024-10-06 15:26:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> will check the references ty |
| 2024-10-06 15:35:31 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 15:36:07 +0200 | Guest6817 | (~Guest6817@103.182.161.2) |
| 2024-10-06 15:36:11 +0200 | <Guest6817> | This has probably been asked a thousand times and I'm sorry for asking it again, but is Haskell still relevant to be used in today's time considering some of the competition right now? I code mostly for fun and would like to know if Haskell still holds its ground with a decent ecosystem to go with it, like how's the library support compared some |
| 2024-10-06 15:36:12 +0200 | <Guest6817> | other languages at the moment? |
| 2024-10-06 15:36:31 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> literally the best production lang |
| 2024-10-06 15:36:36 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> no competition |
| 2024-10-06 15:36:54 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> competitors are dependently-typed langs |
| 2024-10-06 15:38:34 +0200 | <Guest6817> | So considering one spends enough time learning it, the major shift in paradigm to a function style won't hamper me as compared to a more traditional language like C or Rust? |
| 2024-10-06 15:39:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> you need to ask a single question to yourself: do you want to be able to reason about your programs |
| 2024-10-06 15:39:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> do you want to understand what it is you work with |
| 2024-10-06 15:39:39 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> are you tired of not knowing why you fix bugs, why you make programs that work and you can't tell why |
| 2024-10-06 15:39:57 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> constantly living in a state of alienation from the very thing you spent hours working on |
| 2024-10-06 15:40:06 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 15:40:41 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> gaze at the masses of programmers, typing away. one asks: how can they be so close to this thing that they call their life's work, yet at the same time be so far from it? |
| 2024-10-06 15:40:42 +0200 | <Guest6817> | 'Alienation' is actually a great term to describe how I feel looking at some of the past codes I've written |
| 2024-10-06 15:40:58 +0200 | <Lears> | Guest6817: Learning a new language (Haskell) as opposed to another dialect of a language you already know (C, Rust, etc) will be a lot harder. It will also be much more fun and rewarding. |
| 2024-10-06 15:43:11 +0200 | <Guest6817> | The only concern I had till now is whether any part of the Haskell (the immutability, everything as functions, the arcane things called 'monads' or whatever they're called) will hinder me in working on a problem where a imperative language wouldn't? |
| 2024-10-06 15:43:31 +0200 | <yushyin> | rust has some influences from haskell and other funcprog languages, so you might even recognize some parts of that while learning haskell |
| 2024-10-06 15:44:59 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> haskell will fix your marriage |
| 2024-10-06 15:45:53 +0200 | <identity> | Guest6817: haskell-specific parts will only hinder you while you are unfamiliar with them |
| 2024-10-06 15:46:18 +0200 | <identity> | any tool will hinder you if you don't know which way to hold it |
| 2024-10-06 15:46:58 +0200 | <Guest6817> | So all in all, other than the scary learning cliff that Haskell has, nothing should bother me if I actually learn it well |
| 2024-10-06 15:48:45 +0200 | <Guest6817> | How's the Haskell external library support? Good enough for (most) random things I wanna do with Haskell? |
| 2024-10-06 15:50:20 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-10-06 15:50:47 +0200 | <lxsameer> | tomsmeding: cheers |
| 2024-10-06 15:50:56 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 15:54:19 +0200 | <yushyin> | Guest6817: maybe a bit outdated overview, but might give you an overall impression https://github.com/Gabriella439/post-rfc/blob/main/sotu.md |
| 2024-10-06 15:55:18 +0200 | Digitteknohippie | Digit |
| 2024-10-06 15:55:46 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 15:59:03 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 16:01:06 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 16:04:27 +0200 | <geekosaur> | practically? it certainly is used, although it's no JS in terms of popularity |
| 2024-10-06 16:05:15 +0200 | <geekosaur> | but popularity and even direct usage don't tell the whole story. secretly, haskell's conquests are from within: more and more languages are sprouting things taken from it |
| 2024-10-06 16:06:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 16:09:57 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Guest6817: the paradigm shift is the thing that will _help_ you -- as in, learning to program in this different paradigm will make you a better programmer even in other languages |
| 2024-10-06 16:10:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | just for having more ways of looking at a problem |
| 2024-10-06 16:10:50 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | for programming in haskell specifically, apart from enjoyment: haskell is better at some tasks, Rust is better at others, C++ even has some tasks it's better at (if only for library suppor) |
| 2024-10-06 16:10:54 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | *-t |
| 2024-10-06 16:11:01 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | depends on the application |
| 2024-10-06 16:11:48 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 16:13:31 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:13:49 +0200 | Achylles | (~Achylles@45.182.57.66) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-10-06 16:13:51 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:16:16 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:16:36 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:18:51 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 16:19:01 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:19:20 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:21:45 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:21:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 16:22:04 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:24:30 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:24:49 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:26:52 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 16:27:11 +0200 | Guest6817 | (~Guest6817@103.182.161.2) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2024-10-06 16:27:16 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:27:35 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:27:56 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-10-06 16:30:00 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:30:19 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:31:05 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 16:32:43 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:33:03 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:35:27 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:35:47 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 16:37:23 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 16:39:04 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:39:28 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar |
| 2024-10-06 16:42:06 +0200 | mantraofpie | (~mantraofp@user/mantraofpie) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 16:42:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 16:44:37 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:9437:9b0:9ccc:15a4) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 16:48:53 +0200 | <Inst> | artu is gone |
| 2024-10-06 16:49:35 +0200 | <Inst> | otherwise would tell him that GHCi (monochhrom, you want me to stop with the negativity and whining, right?) requires :{ to put in a multiline declaration and type signatures can't stand alone |
| 2024-10-06 16:50:42 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-06 16:52:56 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 16:54:14 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 16:57:22 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 16:59:18 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 16:59:35 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 17:08:21 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 17:12:53 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 17:13:56 +0200 | spew | (~spew@201.141.99.170) spew |
| 2024-10-06 17:21:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 17:23:01 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 17:25:58 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 17:36:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 17:40:09 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 17:41:37 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 17:42:19 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 17:45:28 +0200 | malte | (~malte@mal.tc) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2024-10-06 17:46:59 +0200 | bwe | (~bwe@2a01:4f8:1c1c:4878::2) bwe |
| 2024-10-06 17:48:11 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
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| 2024-10-06 17:50:21 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 17:52:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 17:52:46 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 17:53:05 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 17:53:51 +0200 | malte | (~malte@mal.tc) malte |
| 2024-10-06 17:55:15 +0200 | sourcetarius | (~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius) sourcetarius |
| 2024-10-06 17:55:34 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 17:55:53 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 17:56:12 +0200 | bwe | (~bwe@2a01:4f8:1c1c:4878::2) bwe |
| 2024-10-06 17:57:40 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 17:58:18 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 17:58:37 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 17:58:45 +0200 | supercode | (~supercode@user/supercode) supercode |
| 2024-10-06 17:58:56 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2024/10/06?id=1374003#trid1374003 |
| 2024-10-06 17:58:59 +0200 | <monochrom> | I thought I was the one with negativity and whining. :) |
| 2024-10-06 18:00:04 +0200 | <monochrom> | I am pretty negative about doing anything non-trivial on the REPL. play.haskell.org is the best option when one wants to be lazy. |
| 2024-10-06 18:00:36 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I have a test.hs in my home directory that is my go-to for essentially a local playground |
| 2024-10-06 18:01:02 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 18:01:21 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 18:03:52 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 18:04:11 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 18:06:13 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar |
| 2024-10-06 18:06:35 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 18:06:54 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 18:07:32 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) siracusa |
| 2024-10-06 18:07:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 18:09:16 +0200 | <Lears> | Yeah, my home folder is a junk heap with years of stray .hs files I haven't gotten around to cleaning up. `wc` says 11k lines! Yikes. |
| 2024-10-06 18:11:48 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-06 18:11:53 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I compulsively clean my homedir regularly… but there's still some buildup because of things I'm not sure what to do with |
| 2024-10-06 18:12:37 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 18:13:31 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 18:13:50 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 18:14:13 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 18:14:16 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-10-06 18:16:30 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 18:16:49 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-06 18:18:45 +0200 | mud | (~mud@user/kadoban) (Quit: quit) |
| 2024-10-06 18:18:52 +0200 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: I keep wondering whether calling a language good at task X because of an ecosystem is a sensible thing. |
| 2024-10-06 18:19:34 +0200 | <Rembane> | dminuoso: Is Python or Clojure doing its thing again? |
| 2024-10-06 18:19:45 +0200 | <dminuoso> | It feels like a misattribution that leads to to bad comparisons. |
| 2024-10-06 18:20:11 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Well, it suggests that having access to a library in itself improves the language itself. |
| 2024-10-06 18:20:17 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't like it, but people have already merged "language" and "ecosystem" into one single thing and called it "the language". |
| 2024-10-06 18:20:32 +0200 | <geekosaur> | every time someone asks that question I wonder who's being so insecure about big scary Haskell again |
| 2024-10-06 18:20:42 +0200 | <geekosaur> | and why |
| 2024-10-06 18:20:47 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | equivocation on lang |
| 2024-10-06 18:20:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | In fact, even more extreme, I even reject calling a language good at task X at all. |
| 2024-10-06 18:21:56 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Philosophically there's some merit, after all the langauge itself doesn't do anything. The actual result (AMD64 machine code) is definitely good at solving a particular numerical task. |
| 2024-10-06 18:21:58 +0200 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles |
| 2024-10-06 18:22:23 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 18:22:41 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | all instances of which are ammenable to substition with an appropriate np, "speced lang", "lang as delivered", etc |
| 2024-10-06 18:23:17 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 18:23:46 +0200 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: On the other hand, from a management perspective when asked "what language should we use", I'm not sure whether differentiating between language and ecosyste, is relevant. |
| 2024-10-06 18:23:59 +0200 | <dminuoso> | The ecosystem does add to the usefulness of a language. |
| 2024-10-06 18:24:02 +0200 | mud | (~mud@user/kadoban) kadoban |
| 2024-10-06 18:24:36 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 18:25:36 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 18:25:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | Hot take: "good at task X" is a social construct. >:) |
| 2024-10-06 18:26:38 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 18:27:00 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.200) |
| 2024-10-06 18:27:26 +0200 | <monochrom> | More seriously, the status quo is always changeable. Nothing blocks adding a task X library to any ecosystem. |
| 2024-10-06 18:28:49 +0200 | <monochrom> | It's why I don't put any weight on that notion unless in the context of "we need to get it done yesterday". |
| 2024-10-06 18:30:18 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty) |
| 2024-10-06 18:30:34 +0200 | <monochrom> | But people wouldn't like that, eh? People are more comfortable with camps, paradigms, stereotypes, stigmas, over-simplifications. |
| 2024-10-06 18:31:00 +0200 | <Rembane> | That's how brains work to use very little glucose |
| 2024-10-06 18:32:03 +0200 | <Franciman> | monochrom: the status quo of what? |
| 2024-10-06 18:32:33 +0200 | <Franciman> | the status quo of a society is very difficult to change, because of what you said |
| 2024-10-06 18:32:49 +0200 | <Franciman> | the status quo of physics laws is impossible to change |
| 2024-10-06 18:34:53 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 18:35:22 +0200 | <Franciman> | i'm not sure it's easy to change the status quo of a GCed lang like haskell |
| 2024-10-06 18:35:40 +0200 | <Franciman> | can haskell do real time programming? |
| 2024-10-06 18:36:15 +0200 | <davean> | Franciman: Sure. Particularly tight realtime its not great at. Soft is pretty easy with the realtime GC though. |
| 2024-10-06 18:37:10 +0200 | <davean> | I wouldn't call it great at it thoguh. |
| 2024-10-06 18:37:35 +0200 | <Franciman> | nice |
| 2024-10-06 18:37:47 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 18:38:02 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue |
| 2024-10-06 18:38:36 +0200 | <davean> | There have been a few OS projects in Haskell, while they've managed, I tihnk they've all ended with "This is way harder than we like" |
| 2024-10-06 18:38:56 +0200 | <Rembane> | davean: Way harder because of Haskell or because of the domain? |
| 2024-10-06 18:39:29 +0200 | <davean> | Rembane: I mean ... its always the product of the two that sets how rthi |
| 2024-10-06 18:39:32 +0200 | <davean> | hard sometihng is |
| 2024-10-06 18:39:47 +0200 | <Rembane> | davean: That's true. |
| 2024-10-06 18:42:41 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 18:42:59 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-10-06 18:43:14 +0200 | raehik | (~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) raehik |
| 2024-10-06 18:43:41 +0200 | <davean> | Franciman: https://metasepi.org/en/posts/2014-09-04-haskell-symposium.html sound drivers are soft realtime. (I remembered this existed, I don't remember the contense at all) |
| 2024-10-06 18:44:43 +0200 | <geekosaur> | IIRC House specifically did sound drivers in Haskell |
| 2024-10-06 18:45:29 +0200 | <Franciman> | cool |
| 2024-10-06 18:45:39 +0200 | <Franciman> | ty |
| 2024-10-06 18:46:00 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 18:46:15 +0200 | <davean> | This predates the non-moving GC |
| 2024-10-06 18:47:01 +0200 | <davean> | That has limited pause time though |
| 2024-10-06 18:48:26 +0200 | <davean> | Franciman: Honestly though, this is a problem I think Haskell makes legitimately harder than other languages do though. |
| 2024-10-06 18:48:42 +0200 | <davean> | There *are* ways to deal with it, but you have to deal with a lot of things you don't in others. |
| 2024-10-06 18:48:45 +0200 | <Inst> | thanks tomsmeding, and thanks for being unerringly helpful and a strong contributor to the community |
| 2024-10-06 18:49:02 +0200 | <Inst> | monochrom: the reason I worry about >>= leaking when it's explicitly used is because I love >>= |
| 2024-10-06 18:49:54 +0200 | <Inst> | if you're not reusing the term, why bother with do; bar <- foo; baz bar when you can just foo >>= baz and be done with it? |
| 2024-10-06 18:50:20 +0200 | <Inst> | there's a trade-off in expressivity for familiarity, there's tons of cases where using >>= directly can be more expressive |
| 2024-10-06 18:51:15 +0200 | <davean> | I find I do both, depending on the details |
| 2024-10-06 18:51:59 +0200 | <Inst> | there's folks on discourse who are fundamentalist in "fake python" style |
| 2024-10-06 18:52:31 +0200 | <Rembane> | Inst: Are they all in on do-notation? |
| 2024-10-06 18:52:49 +0200 | <Inst> | yeah |
| 2024-10-06 18:53:19 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 18:53:20 +0200 | <Inst> | i'm more foo >>= bar when it's simpler, or foo; >>= bar; >>= baz when it better expresses the flow of your computation / program structure |
| 2024-10-06 18:53:34 +0200 | <Rembane> | That seems reasonable |
| 2024-10-06 18:53:42 +0200 | <Rembane> | I'm quite fond of (>=>) |
| 2024-10-06 18:53:48 +0200 | <Rembane> | :t (>=>) |
| 2024-10-06 18:53:49 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c |
| 2024-10-06 18:56:27 +0200 | <Inst> | that said (,,) <$> foo <*> bar <*> baz >>= qux probably goes too far |
| 2024-10-06 18:56:59 +0200 | alp_ | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:f5b0:cd1b:e895:cf8a) |
| 2024-10-06 18:58:00 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-10-06 18:58:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 18:58:11 +0200 | <davean> | Inst: I'm confused on what a fundimentalist in fake python style means |
| 2024-10-06 18:58:33 +0200 | <dolio> | What is the problem with real time stuff being difficult in Haskell, though? Not every tool has to be perfect for every job. |
| 2024-10-06 18:58:40 +0200 | <davean> | Inst: >>= and <- says something different about programmer intent. |
| 2024-10-06 18:58:48 +0200 | <dolio> | It's okay to use more than one language. |
| 2024-10-06 18:58:51 +0200 | <davean> | dolio: who said there was a problem? |
| 2024-10-06 18:58:56 +0200 | <Inst> | <- allows you to reuse the value |
| 2024-10-06 18:59:12 +0200 | <davean> | Inst: says your thinking about that value specificly, not the computation at the very least. |
| 2024-10-06 18:59:22 +0200 | <dolio> | Typically stuff like this is presented as a problem. |
| 2024-10-06 18:59:37 +0200 | <davean> | dolio: I didn't think it was in this case ... |
| 2024-10-06 18:59:39 +0200 | <Inst> | how is linear haskell working for people? |
| 2024-10-06 18:59:48 +0200 | <davean> | people were talking about problem domains and ecosystem vs. language |
| 2024-10-06 18:59:52 +0200 | <davean> | Inst: horrid |
| 2024-10-06 18:59:56 +0200 | <davean> | for me at least |
| 2024-10-06 19:00:15 +0200 | <davean> | I've never heard of anyone having successes with it. |
| 2024-10-06 19:00:19 +0200 | <Inst> | Anduril's recent job posting is either them being exciting about a mundane job, moving to hardkill jammers, or actually working on linear accelerators (railguns) |
| 2024-10-06 19:00:34 +0200 | raehik | (~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 19:00:48 +0200 | <Inst> | for the last task you'd imagine they'd move to linear haskell to precisely control timings |
| 2024-10-06 19:01:09 +0200 | <davean> | Inst: ... yah I think you're very wrong. |
| 2024-10-06 19:01:37 +0200 | <davean> | having tried to use it, it doesn't touch the IO domain at all really. Never solved any of the problems required |
| 2024-10-06 19:02:17 +0200 | <Inst> | that's a lot of haskell, no? Begging for someone to submit a pull request on Github |
| 2024-10-06 19:03:21 +0200 | <Inst> | fundamentalist in fake python: simple haskell advocate who wants to get rid of explicit >>= and >> usage to make the codebase easier to approach |
| 2024-10-06 19:03:26 +0200 | <davean> | I was really disapointed in the Linear Haskell stuff, these questions were brought up before merge, they dogged constantly and claimed they answered them while refusing to. Quite sad. |
| 2024-10-06 19:03:46 +0200 | <Inst> | once again, it's that Haskell needs more funding and resources |
| 2024-10-06 19:04:20 +0200 | <davean> | No, no, nothing requires refusing to answer a question and claiming you did |
| 2024-10-06 19:04:34 +0200 | <davean> | You can for example, admit you don't have an answer yet |
| 2024-10-06 19:04:51 +0200 | tabemann | (~tabemann@2600:1700:7990:24e0:bc5d:8bdb:179f:73b1) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-06 19:05:04 +0200 | tabemann | (~tabemann@2600:1700:7990:24e0:8858:4365:4e70:4256) |
| 2024-10-06 19:05:26 +0200 | <Inst> | ehhh, could be a cultural issue for where they're coming from? |
| 2024-10-06 19:05:45 +0200 | <Inst> | like, they're desperate to get it merged, but definitely don't have the resources to develop properly, etc? |
| 2024-10-06 19:06:12 +0200 | <Inst> | but they'd rather dodge rather than say: 'hi, if you're competent for working on GHC, plz halp" |
| 2024-10-06 19:08:22 +0200 | <Rembane> | Did it result in any good papers? |
| 2024-10-06 19:08:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 19:09:40 +0200 | <Inst> | from what I hear of the linear Haskell people |
| 2024-10-06 19:09:53 +0200 | <Inst> | they're essentially: "we built stuff into GHc, everything else is the problem of the library makers" |
| 2024-10-06 19:10:17 +0200 | athan | (~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) athan |
| 2024-10-06 19:10:19 +0200 | <davean> | You know ... except libraries can't patch theory |
| 2024-10-06 19:10:45 +0200 | <Rembane> | Are we back in the libraries + language again? |
| 2024-10-06 19:11:09 +0200 | <Rembane> | davean: Do you imply that the theory is broken? Or have I misunderstood you? |
| 2024-10-06 19:11:39 +0200 | <davean> | Rembane: broken? No. The source of the issues using it? Yes |
| 2024-10-06 19:12:49 +0200 | <Rembane> | davean: Got it! |
| 2024-10-06 19:13:07 +0200 | <dolio> | I haven't looked closely, but the problem seems to be that it wasn't designed to address the usual, known uses of linear types. |
| 2024-10-06 19:13:21 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-06 19:13:48 +0200 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en |
| 2024-10-06 19:18:21 +0200 | <davean> | Rembane: Try writing like just a merge step of a merge sort with liner types, consider the edge cases. |
| 2024-10-06 19:18:23 +0200 | <davean> | HAVE FUN! |
| 2024-10-06 19:18:23 +0200 | <dolio> | So, like, maybe you could use linear types to design some methodology of using unsafe operations, and very carefully implement something on top of the unsafe operations that provided some kind of typical performance increase. But the linearity stuff is not inherently doing the things that perform better in known ways. |
| 2024-10-06 19:18:48 +0200 | <Rembane> | davean: ^^ |
| 2024-10-06 19:18:57 +0200 | <davean> | Rembane: Some of the best Haskellers I know tries that, and as a team failed. |
| 2024-10-06 19:19:09 +0200 | <Rembane> | davean: Oh. That sounds way too hard. |
| 2024-10-06 19:20:24 +0200 | <Inst> | btw, why doesn't Haskell have dynamic vectors? |
| 2024-10-06 19:20:43 +0200 | <Inst> | iirc the newbie rule of thumb is "prefer vectors unless you need laziness", but vector doesn't have O(1) cons |
| 2024-10-06 19:20:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-06 19:21:06 +0200 | <davean> | ... you can't have O(1) cons |
| 2024-10-06 19:21:09 +0200 | <Rembane> | Inst: Are you thinking of Data.Vector? |