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2024-09-18 02:48:01 +0200 <monochrom> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0920548901000599 Someone actually tried to give C a denotational semantics. Moreover, "a direct implementation of the semantics, using the programming language Haskell".
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2024-09-18 05:55:29 +0200 <Inst> <|> is sort of bad, sin't it?
2024-09-18 05:55:34 +0200 <Inst> unless it has the right rewrite rules for it
2024-09-18 05:55:43 +0200 <Inst> a <|> b <|> c doesn't fail correctly
2024-09-18 05:56:01 +0200 <Inst> *succeed correctly
2024-09-18 05:56:08 +0200 <Inst> if a short circuits, the second <|> is triggered
2024-09-18 05:57:36 +0200wei2912(~wei2912@116.88.52.77)
2024-09-18 05:58:52 +0200 <jle`> Inst: what instance are you think of ?
2024-09-18 05:59:45 +0200wei2912(~wei2912@116.88.52.77) (Client Quit)
2024-09-18 05:59:51 +0200 <Inst> let me check maybe again
2024-09-18 06:00:32 +0200 <Inst> yup, alternative maybe
2024-09-18 06:00:44 +0200 <Inst> it'll keep on checking Just values when it can just short-circuit
2024-09-18 06:01:56 +0200 <monochrom> > Just 4 <|> undefined
2024-09-18 06:01:57 +0200 <lambdabot> Just 4
2024-09-18 06:02:03 +0200 <monochrom> Debunked.
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2024-09-18 06:03:15 +0200greenflower(~greenflow@45.112.53.154)
2024-09-18 06:03:43 +0200 <Inst> > Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined
2024-09-18 06:03:45 +0200 <lambdabot> Just 4
2024-09-18 06:03:51 +0200 <Inst> no, the claim is that the second <|> will trigger
2024-09-18 06:04:29 +0200 <Inst> what I want is Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined), which can be provided by rewrite rules, tbh
2024-09-18 06:04:50 +0200 <monochrom> > Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined)
2024-09-18 06:04:52 +0200 <lambdabot> Just 4
2024-09-18 06:04:56 +0200 <monochrom> Debunked.
2024-09-18 06:05:01 +0200 <Inst> ???
2024-09-18 06:05:18 +0200 <mauke> <|> is left assoc
2024-09-18 06:05:20 +0200 <Inst> the claim i'm making isn't being tested properly, what I mean is that there are two <|>s in the expression
2024-09-18 06:05:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-18 06:05:39 +0200 <monochrom> > Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined
2024-09-18 06:05:41 +0200 <lambdabot> Just 4
2024-09-18 06:05:44 +0200 <monochrom> Debunked.
2024-09-18 06:05:51 +0200 <Inst> only the first <|> should trigger, the second should fail through (in an ideal world
2024-09-18 06:06:04 +0200morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2024-09-18 06:06:05 +0200 <Inst> Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined) should be operationally equivalent to Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined
2024-09-18 06:06:42 +0200 <monochrom> I don't know what "trigger" means. Is this Haskell or is this SQL "create trigger"?
2024-09-18 06:06:49 +0200 <Inst> hold on
2024-09-18 06:06:58 +0200 <Leary> You can just declare `(<||>) = (<|>); infixr 3 <||>`; if you want right associativity.
2024-09-18 06:07:05 +0200 <monochrom> But I have shown enough working examples. Where is the breakage?
2024-09-18 06:07:10 +0200 <Inst> hmmm, i can't do this with foldr and infinite lists
2024-09-18 06:07:29 +0200 <monochrom> Your turn to show an example not essay writing.
2024-09-18 06:07:36 +0200 <Inst> assume an inifnite sequence of Just 4 <|> something <|> something...
2024-09-18 06:07:52 +0200 <Inst> this should never evaluate, because the <|> keeps on getting applied
2024-09-18 06:07:53 +0200 <mauke> it's not about correctness, only performance. I think
2024-09-18 06:08:15 +0200 <monochrom> I don't know how to write an infinitely long piece of code. Do you?
2024-09-18 06:08:37 +0200 <Leary> > asum (Just 4:repeat undefined)
2024-09-18 06:08:38 +0200 <monochrom> My disk has only 250GB it can't save an infinite source file.
2024-09-18 06:08:39 +0200 <lambdabot> Just 4
2024-09-18 06:08:55 +0200youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic)
2024-09-18 06:09:03 +0200 <Inst> i thought you could do it with foldr (<|>) Nothing (Just 4 : repeat Nothing), but it'll insert parens
2024-09-18 06:09:17 +0200 <monochrom> foldr is fair.
2024-09-18 06:09:27 +0200 <mauke> (Just x <|> b) <|> c goes through two applications of (<|>); Just x <|> (a <|> b) only goes through one
2024-09-18 06:09:28 +0200 <Inst> but you can't do it with foldr because iirc the parens are implicit
2024-09-18 06:09:31 +0200 <Inst> thanks Leary
2024-09-18 06:09:39 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-18 06:09:40 +0200 <monochrom> > foldr (<|>) undefined (Just 4 : repeat undefined)
2024-09-18 06:09:42 +0200 <lambdabot> Just 4
2024-09-18 06:09:44 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2024-09-18 06:09:48 +0200 <monochrom> Still no breakage.
2024-09-18 06:09:55 +0200 <Inst> no, but it won't break with foldr
2024-09-18 06:10:04 +0200 <monochrom> OK, what will break?
2024-09-18 06:10:05 +0200 <mauke> it won't break at all
2024-09-18 06:10:11 +0200 <Inst> it's a performance concern, as mauke stated
2024-09-18 06:10:16 +0200 <monochrom> Actual code or it didn't happen.
2024-09-18 06:10:26 +0200 <probie> monochrom: As long as the k-complexity is finite, you can easily "fake it" with a custom fuse mount
2024-09-18 06:10:29 +0200morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-18 06:10:30 +0200 <monochrom> For performance you can show actual benchmark.
2024-09-18 06:11:09 +0200 <monochrom> which unsurprisingly imples actual code again.
2024-09-18 06:11:20 +0200 <monochrom> Not meaningless words like "assume" "infinite".
2024-09-18 06:11:24 +0200 <ski> "it'll insert parens","the parens are implicit" -- ?
2024-09-18 06:11:27 +0200 <Inst> is your point that the repeated applications of <|> is essentially pendantry?
2024-09-18 06:12:00 +0200 <mauke> ski: that's someone thinking in concrete syntax, not expression graphs :-)
2024-09-18 06:12:20 +0200 <monochrom> No, my point is until you show actual example you don't even know what's the true cause.
2024-09-18 06:12:33 +0200skigraphs expressions against concrete syntax, extrapolates to infinity
2024-09-18 06:12:54 +0200 <monochrom> You are acting like absolute beginners who end up blaming everything except the true cause.
2024-09-18 06:13:18 +0200 <mauke> cause of what?
2024-09-18 06:13:44 +0200 <monochrom> An unspecified breakage. (See that's the 2nd problem.)
2024-09-18 06:13:52 +0200ski. o O ( "Do not ask whether a statement is true until you know what it means." -- Errett Bishop )
2024-09-18 06:13:55 +0200 <mauke> monochrom: old news. there is no breakage anymore
2024-09-18 06:14:21 +0200 <monochrom> OK sure.
2024-09-18 06:14:35 +0200 <monochrom> What was the question again?
2024-09-18 06:14:46 +0200 <mauke> <mauke> (Just x <|> b) <|> c goes through two applications of (<|>); Just x <|> (a <|> b) only goes through one
2024-09-18 06:14:52 +0200 <mauke> so why is <|> infixl and not infixr?
2024-09-18 06:15:43 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah that's a poor decision.
2024-09-18 06:16:48 +0200 <monochrom> But even that didn't cause more bottoms than necessary.
2024-09-18 06:17:04 +0200 <mauke> right. it's just less efficient
2024-09-18 06:17:19 +0200 <probie> probably to make it play nicely with other operators under the assumption that one would use `asum` if more than one `(<|>)` was needed
2024-09-18 06:18:08 +0200 <Inst> thanks mauke
2024-09-18 06:18:26 +0200 <Inst> sorry, i'm thinking in terms of the primitive implementation of foldr on lists
2024-09-18 06:19:18 +0200 <Inst> *naive
2024-09-18 06:19:44 +0200youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-18 06:19:47 +0200 <monochrom> (>>) is similarly bad. I was a bit disappointed at that too.
2024-09-18 06:20:10 +0200 <Inst> i noticed, but so did GHC team and they have it optimized on O1 and above (iirc) to be equivalent to do semicolon
2024-09-18 06:20:43 +0200 <glguy> don’t miss a chance to write naïve :)
2024-09-18 06:21:11 +0200 <Inst> foldr f z [] = z
2024-09-18 06:21:27 +0200 <Inst> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
2024-09-18 06:21:33 +0200 <Inst> iirc that was in graham, no?
2024-09-18 06:21:45 +0200 <mauke> naïve
2024-09-18 06:22:10 +0200 <mauke> > foldr f z [a,b,c,d]
2024-09-18 06:22:12 +0200 <lambdabot> f a (f b (f c (f d z)))
2024-09-18 06:22:16 +0200youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic)
2024-09-18 06:23:12 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-18 06:26:38 +0200 <Inst> but thanks for the help, i've never used asum before and i think that's the correct solution to griping about infixl
2024-09-18 06:27:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-18 06:31:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-18 06:31:54 +0200 <Inst> I saw someone get around Haskell's lack of f lists with concat [strings...]
2024-09-18 06:35:13 +0200 <ski> "f lists" ?
2024-09-18 06:35:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-18 06:40:11 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.218)
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2024-09-18 06:53:01 +0200 <Inst> erm, f strings
2024-09-18 06:53:34 +0200 <Inst> i prefer traverse putStr or just otherwise keeping it as a list
2024-09-18 06:53:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-18 06:54:10 +0200 <Inst> traverse (foo :: Monad m => a -> m b) list is great
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2024-09-18 12:32:02 +0200akegalj(~akegalj@141-136-172-97.dsl.iskon.hr)
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2024-09-18 12:34:35 +0200 <akegalj> ghc option `-jN` when N is ommited says it builds with number of processors host machine has (https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using.html#ghc-flag--j[%E2%9F%A8n%E2%9F%A9]). If host machine has 1 processor with 4 cores, will N be 1 or 4?
2024-09-18 12:38:45 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip2504fbd4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-09-18 12:42:00 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-18 12:42:25 +0200 <geekosaur> 4 or possibly 8 (if hyperthreading is enabled)
2024-09-18 12:46:29 +0200 <geekosaur> (hyperthreading is usually disabled because it tends to be a lose)
2024-09-18 12:46:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> (hyperthreading is essentially always enabled on personal computers)
2024-09-18 12:47:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> (it is sometimes disabled on servers)
2024-09-18 12:47:53 +0200 <akegalj> tomsmeding: ty <3
2024-09-18 12:47:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> akegalj: on linux, $ grep '^processor' /proc/cpuinfo
2024-09-18 12:48:31 +0200 <akegalj> tomsmeding: ok great. I was just confused by core/processor terminology
2024-09-18 12:48:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> for some reason, /proc/cpuinfo uses the same "processor" terminology
2024-09-18 12:49:00 +0200 <geekosaur> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/AqGaf4MW
2024-09-18 12:49:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> akegalj: note that due to hyperthreading, "core" is also an ambiguous word
2024-09-18 12:49:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: do you have a fancy custom interpreter set in the kernel for .hs files?
2024-09-18 12:50:02 +0200 <geekosaur> well, the real point here is I don't think there's any way in software to determine cores vs. processors unless you have access to the system management bus
2024-09-18 12:50:11 +0200 <geekosaur> no, I pre-compiled that
2024-09-18 12:50:18 +0200tomsmedingis blind
2024-09-18 12:50:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: what do you mean with "core" and "processor" here :p
2024-09-18 12:51:02 +0200 <geekosaur> I'm going with what akegalj seemed to mean by them, one physical package (processor) with multiple cores
2024-09-18 12:51:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> is a core-y thing that is split into two units using hyperthreading, 1 or 2 "cores"?
2024-09-18 12:52:18 +0200 <geekosaur> ask linux
2024-09-18 12:52:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> grep '^processor\|^core id' /proc/cpuinfo
2024-09-18 12:52:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> this is known information in software
2024-09-18 12:53:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-18 12:53:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> /proc/cpuinfo apparently talks about 1 chip having N "cores", each having possibly multiple "processors" inside
2024-09-18 12:53:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> (the word "chip" is not mentioned)
2024-09-18 12:53:25 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78.10.206.35) (Quit: oo_miguel)
2024-09-18 12:54:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> so according to Linux, my intel i9-10900K has 10 cores and 20 processors
2024-09-18 12:54:06 +0200 <geekosaur> btw "custom interpreter" is not difficult to arrange on linux iirc
2024-09-18 12:54:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> iirc it indeed isn't, but I've never seen anyone do it :)
2024-09-18 12:54:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> (and I misread and thought that was `./np.hs` instead of `./np`)
2024-09-18 12:55:08 +0200sourcetarius(~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-09-18 12:55:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> CPU manufacturers tend to talk about a chip having "cores", which may have 2 "threads" each
2024-09-18 12:55:27 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:d09b:def9:34dc:ea3f)
2024-09-18 12:56:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> GPU manufacturers lie through their teeth
2024-09-18 12:56:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> (partly because the story is just simply more complex on a GPU)
2024-09-18 12:57:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-18 12:59:28 +0200 <akegalj> geekosaur: one more stupid question ... I see that `+RTS -N` enables number of cores for ghc app to run with. Does that mean if I want ghc to compile with multiple cores/processors I have to `ghc -j +RTS -N` in order for ghc to run with more threads or is it enough to say `ghc -j` and this assumes compilers rts will use N threads. I wonder what would happen if I did `ghc +RTS -N` ommiting -j
2024-09-18 13:00:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> try it ;)
2024-09-18 13:00:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> -j should be enough
2024-09-18 13:00:31 +0200 <akegalj> tomsmeding: <3
2024-09-18 13:00:37 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-09-18 13:00:55 +0200 <geekosaur> I think it will do `setNumCapabilities` itself in that case, yes
2024-09-18 13:01:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> depending on how exactly ghc itself has been compiled, `ghc +RTS -N` without -j will be mostly the same as `ghc` but with a little more overhead from pointless parallel GC