| 2024-09-09 00:00:13 +0200 | <EvanR> | xterm unfortunately can't be beaten |
| 2024-09-09 00:00:24 +0200 | ZharMeny | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) |
| 2024-09-09 00:00:25 +0200 | <geekosaur> | urxvt 😛 |
| 2024-09-09 00:00:38 +0200 | <EvanR> | urxvt is pretty good now |
| 2024-09-09 00:00:41 +0200 | ZharMeny | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-09-09 00:00:43 +0200 | mreh | (~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:00:45 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (that said, I actually use mate-terminal because I use mate) |
| 2024-09-09 00:00:57 +0200 | ZharMeny | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) |
| 2024-09-09 00:01:52 +0200 | <juri_> | urxvt here too, but i'm looking at doing some ai .... stuff .... and am looking for a terminal emulator to add features to, so... |
| 2024-09-09 00:04:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | AI in your terminal xD |
| 2024-09-09 00:04:37 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | There are some experiments in that area, like https://www.warp.dev/ |
| 2024-09-09 00:04:38 +0200 | <geekosaur> | ai yai yai |
| 2024-09-09 00:04:42 +0200 | <EvanR> | make sure you have wireframe vector graphics support so you can draw an andros-like face |
| 2024-09-09 00:05:10 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | Personally I would rather have a simple cli utility I can query for things with. |
| 2024-09-09 00:07:05 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | What does lifting mean? I see it used in different contexts and find it confusing. |
| 2024-09-09 00:08:02 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 00:08:09 +0200 | <juri_> | I'm doing something a bit different, but.. :D |
| 2024-09-09 00:10:03 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 00:14:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:15:07 +0200 | <EvanR> | justsomeguy, have you seen fmap |
| 2024-09-09 00:15:32 +0200 | <EvanR> | :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b) |
| 2024-09-09 00:16:03 +0200 | <EvanR> | it lifts any function to a corresponding function on f-things |
| 2024-09-09 00:16:46 +0200 | <EvanR> | I've seen it in other contexts to means similar abstract structural moves |
| 2024-09-09 00:17:03 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:17:35 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yes "lift" is an intuitive word, not a rigorous word. |
| 2024-09-09 00:18:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | where intuition = without evident rational thought and inference. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intuition |
| 2024-09-09 00:18:47 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | So, in (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b, the a -> b is lifted to m a -> m b. What about the m b in (a -> m b? |
| 2024-09-09 00:18:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | no |
| 2024-09-09 00:19:06 +0200 | <EvanR> | I wouldn't call that lifting xD |
| 2024-09-09 00:19:16 +0200 | <monochrom> | That one "lifts" a->mb to ma->mb. |
| 2024-09-09 00:19:39 +0200 | <EvanR> | it's more like monad function application |
| 2024-09-09 00:19:54 +0200 | <monochrom> | Or maybe it's demotion? Because contravariant something something? |
| 2024-09-09 00:20:06 +0200 | <EvanR> | if anything gets actually applied to a function, all the cool words go out the window xD |
| 2024-09-09 00:20:09 +0200 | <EvanR> | like composition |
| 2024-09-09 00:20:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | you hear that elixir people! |
| 2024-09-09 00:20:32 +0200 | <EvanR> | applying is not function composition |
| 2024-09-09 00:21:00 +0200 | <monochrom> | Heh |
| 2024-09-09 00:21:42 +0200 | ZharMeny` | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) |
| 2024-09-09 00:21:56 +0200 | <EvanR> | a "lifted type" is, unrelated it seems, a type with an additional bottom |
| 2024-09-09 00:22:00 +0200 | <monochrom> | Remember how people look at the equivalent of "f . g $ x" and "f $ g $ x" and be like "so what is the difference between . and $" |
| 2024-09-09 00:22:45 +0200 | <EvanR> | D: |
| 2024-09-09 00:23:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | unboxed Int = ... -1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | ... |
| 2024-09-09 00:23:05 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 00:23:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | Int = Int | bottom xD |
| 2024-09-09 00:23:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | Int = unboxed Int | bottom xD |
| 2024-09-09 00:23:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | lifted |
| 2024-09-09 00:23:44 +0200 | ZharMeny | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:24:31 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 00:25:53 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | Does boxed mean there's a pointer involved, and unboxed mean there isn't? |
| 2024-09-09 00:26:19 +0200 | <EvanR> | boxed means there's a box, which you access with a pointer |
| 2024-09-09 00:26:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | you could access an unboxed value with a pointer to, if you want |
| 2024-09-09 00:26:35 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yes but there is more. boxed is heap-allocated. |
| 2024-09-09 00:27:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | unboxed values are scattered loose |
| 2024-09-09 00:27:45 +0200 | <EvanR> | or confusingly, packed into an unboxed array |
| 2024-09-09 00:27:53 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:28:20 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-09-09 00:30:48 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:32:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | More confusingly, that array itself is boxed (because heap) but unlifted (because no bottom). >:) |
| 2024-09-09 00:33:11 +0200 | ZharMeny` | ZharMeny |
| 2024-09-09 00:35:16 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone got good references about designing applications as a consequence of type-level reasoning? |
| 2024-09-09 00:35:33 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> algebra-driven design is about this, no? |
| 2024-09-09 00:38:52 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 00:42:01 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | thirdofmay: I came across this book but haven't read it yet (it's over my head) https://thinkingwithtypes.com/ |
| 2024-09-09 00:42:41 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> nice! i'll give it a read, ty |
| 2024-09-09 00:43:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:45:00 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 00:53:19 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:54:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 00:54:54 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 00:54:59 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-09-09 00:56:23 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | I have to admit that even though I like the idea of preventing more errors throught the type system I really dread the thought of working on a complicated code base that does type-level stuff. |
| 2024-09-09 00:57:05 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> imo it's less about safety and more about compositionality/modularity of design |
| 2024-09-09 00:57:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> although safety is nice too |
| 2024-09-09 00:59:17 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:59:38 +0200 | <EvanR> | business requirements are not well-typed |
| 2024-09-09 00:59:46 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 00:59:51 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | The main issue for me is that it's a huge time investment to understand such a design well enough to contribute to it. |
| 2024-09-09 01:00:14 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | But I'm also not an experienced programmer, more of a sysadmin, and I'm a little out of my element where Haskell is concerned. |
| 2024-09-09 01:01:07 +0200 | <geekosaur> | you can get there |
| 2024-09-09 01:01:23 +0200 | <geekosaur> | <-- ex-sysadmin (retired/disability) |
| 2024-09-09 01:03:14 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:c1a4:8f81:9151:7c9c) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:05:04 +0200 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) |
| 2024-09-09 01:05:56 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:64f3:44bc:1e36:4a59) |
| 2024-09-09 01:08:15 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't use type-level design. I use Jackson Structured Design, which is type-driven but actually gets things done cleanly. It takes the view that a [abstract] type is specified by which operations you want it to support, so you ask yourself that question first, and not jump into implementation prematurely. |
| 2024-09-09 01:10:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> monochrom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_structured_programming this? |
| 2024-09-09 01:10:22 +0200 | <monochrom> | There are some old FP papers actually doing that (without calling it that). For example the Wadler pretty-printing paper. They call it "algebra" instead, because if you have a [abstract] type and a bunch of operations, that's an algebra. |
| 2024-09-09 01:10:26 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 01:13:14 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | monochrom: This one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_structured_programming ? |
| 2024-09-09 01:13:24 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:13:30 +0200 | <justsomeguy> | lol, nevermind, definitely not that one |
| 2024-09-09 01:15:01 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:15:09 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:15:11 +0200 | <monochrom> | Or maybe I have a beautified memory of it. |
| 2024-09-09 01:17:06 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb75c990977c7caf1962.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:22:56 +0200 | morb | (~morb@108.41.100.120) |
| 2024-09-09 01:24:58 +0200 | <monochrom> | Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_system_development instead. I'll [mis]interpret "identifies the entities in the system, the actions they perform" as what I said above. >:) |
| 2024-09-09 01:26:13 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 01:26:41 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: peterbecich) |
| 2024-09-09 01:30:28 +0200 | tstat | (~tstat@user/tstat) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-09-09 01:31:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:31:59 +0200 | morb | (~morb@108.41.100.120) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:37:25 +0200 | justsomeguy | (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:42:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 01:47:04 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:47:10 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 01:50:24 +0200 | justsomeguy | (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) |
| 2024-09-09 01:51:33 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:56:48 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:64f3:44bc:1e36:4a59) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 01:57:46 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 01:57:57 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:5825:9cdb:90f7:52b0) |
| 2024-09-09 02:00:07 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:5825:9cdb:90f7:52b0) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-09-09 02:02:03 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 02:05:58 +0200 | Axman6 | (~Axman6@user/axman6) |
| 2024-09-09 02:06:39 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:55c2:e74c:3e3:5f94) |
| 2024-09-09 02:07:36 +0200 | <xacktm> | hello, I'm trying to parse an HTML page with xml-conduit by ignoring the HTML <head> boilerplate to get to the <body> data but can't work out how to use the provided ignore* functions to accomplish that - any hints? https://bpa.st/7YMVS |
| 2024-09-09 02:11:58 +0200 | <xacktm> | oh wait, I got it to compile... wrapped parens around the bit after >> like: (ignoreTree "head" ignoreAttrs) >> (tagIgnoreAttrs "body" $ manyYield parseNode) |
| 2024-09-09 02:12:26 +0200 | <xacktm> | thanks rubber ducks ^^ |
| 2024-09-09 02:13:11 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 02:18:09 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 02:18:32 +0200 | <mauke> | the parens in (ignoreTree "head" ignoreAttrs) are redundant |
| 2024-09-09 02:20:00 +0200 | spew | (~spew@201.141.99.170) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 02:20:29 +0200 | <mauke> | the problem is that $ has low precedence, so `a >> b $ c` parses as `(a >> b) $ c`, when you wanted `a >> (b $ c)` |
| 2024-09-09 02:21:44 +0200 | spew | (~spew@201.141.99.170) |
| 2024-09-09 02:22:16 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 02:25:01 +0200 | ZharMeny | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) (Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.4)) |
| 2024-09-09 02:26:33 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:55c2:e74c:3e3:5f94) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 02:26:42 +0200 | <xacktm> | thanks, yes that error did confuse me where to put the parens - I overlooked that $, thinking I could simply chain |
| 2024-09-09 02:27:24 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 02:28:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 02:30:45 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) |
| 2024-09-09 02:33:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 02:36:55 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 02:38:11 +0200 | tcard_ | (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-09-09 02:41:15 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 02:44:46 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 02:49:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 02:59:39 +0200 | Everything | (~Everythin@109.162.122.37) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-09-09 02:59:44 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 03:00:34 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 03:02:28 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-09-09 03:05:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:07:01 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:07:21 +0200 | auri | (~auri@fsf/member/auri) () |
| 2024-09-09 03:07:46 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) |
| 2024-09-09 03:09:36 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2024-09-09 03:16:21 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 03:21:09 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:21:42 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 03:22:31 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 03:24:33 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@om126166210134.28.openmobile.ne.jp) |
| 2024-09-09 03:26:01 +0200 | <Axman6> | xacktm: ignoreTree "head" ignoreAttrs >> tagIgnoreAttrs "body" (manyYield parseNode) is how I would write that |
| 2024-09-09 03:26:09 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:27:05 +0200 | auri | (~auri@fsf/member/auri) |
| 2024-09-09 03:27:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:32:34 +0200 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:34:42 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 03:38:11 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 03:39:58 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:40:00 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@om126166210134.28.openmobile.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-09-09 03:42:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:44:45 +0200 | <xacktm> | hm yes, that is a bit clearer |
| 2024-09-09 03:45:02 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2024-09-09 03:45:54 +0200 | ACuriousMoose | (~ACuriousM@156.34.161.188) |
| 2024-09-09 03:50:28 +0200 | Guest55 | (~Guest55@c-71-229-185-228.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 2024-09-09 03:50:42 +0200 | Guest55 | (~Guest55@c-71-229-185-228.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-09-09 03:53:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 03:54:39 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 03:59:04 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 03:59:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Is there some resource on syntactic experiments for functional languages? I have seen some really interesting ideas (do/codo/arrow notation, indentation-based grouping, etc) but I don't know if there is a central place for them |
| 2024-09-09 03:59:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 04:00:56 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Indentation-based grouping seems interesting for languages that don't have Haskell-style pattern matching, but rather use eliminators and/or first class patterns and/or optics |
| 2024-09-09 04:04:16 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 04:08:44 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 04:09:46 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 04:14:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 04:18:50 +0200 | comonad1 | (~comonad@p200300d02705e800d14b563ba919432f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 04:22:12 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 04:25:34 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-09 05:14:17 +0200 | <ski> | Bowuigi : "Indentation-based grouping seems interesting for languages that don't have Haskell-style pattern matching, but rather use eliminators and/or first class patterns and/or optics" -- why ? (and "first class patterns" meaning ?) |
| 2024-09-09 05:18:31 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
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| 2024-09-09 05:28:50 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty) |
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| 2024-09-09 05:35:12 +0200 | aforemny_ | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cde:3200:4b2a:73ea:fa78:d732) |
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| 2024-09-09 06:34:39 +0200 | arahael_ | (~arahael@user/arahael) |
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| 2024-09-09 07:00:26 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> "First class patterns" are functions that act like small scale pattern matches (like checking if a constructor tag matches and running an action if it does), they are described in a calculus form in a paper of the same name by B. Jay and D. Kessner |
| 2024-09-09 07:00:37 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Kesner* |
| 2024-09-09 07:02:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> A more modern formulation can be found in "Optimizing First-Class Pattern Matching" by J. Smits, T. Hartman and J. Cockx |
| 2024-09-09 07:02:57 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.203) |
| 2024-09-09 07:03:20 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 07:04:03 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> As usual, it can be modelled with row types. Pattern matching on the constructor is equivalent to many variant decompositions or to a single variant elimination, pattern matching on fields is equivalent to record patterns, add some combinators and done, reusable patterns |
| 2024-09-09 07:04:54 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 07:05:36 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Any kind of first class pattern matching can be eventually optimized to the usual pattern matching so their optimization methods also apply |
| 2024-09-09 07:07:12 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> If with "why" you mean why is it a good idea to use indentation to group expressions on these cases, consider the map function for Church-encoded lists |
| 2024-09-09 07:07:36 +0200 | arahael_ | (~arahael@user/arahael) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 07:07:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 07:10:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> (I hope IRC is fine with multi-line messages) |
| 2024-09-09 07:10:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/ZocllxsAxFUSJmQebtytfPyz (3 lines) |
| 2024-09-09 07:10:23 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-09 07:16:13 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Quit: youthlic) |
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| 2024-09-09 07:18:33 +0200 | qqe | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) |
| 2024-09-09 07:22:47 +0200 | <mauke> | <+haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/ZocllxsAxFUSJmQebtytfPyz (3 lines |
| 2024-09-09 07:23:58 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 07:24:09 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.203) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2024-09-09 07:26:04 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 07:26:58 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@om126166210134.28.openmobile.ne.jp) |
| 2024-09-09 07:27:01 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.200) |
| 2024-09-09 07:27:03 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@user/arahael) |
| 2024-09-09 07:28:15 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 07:28:49 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Yeah that works too |
| 2024-09-09 07:33:18 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 07:34:05 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-09-09 07:36:50 +0200 | mstksg | (~jle`@2603:8001:3b02:84d4:a690:69a1:4e16:510b) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2) |
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| 2024-09-09 08:42:21 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2024-09-09 08:54:43 +0200 | ft | (~ft@p4fc2a393.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
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| 2024-09-09 09:07:40 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 09:08:20 +0200 | Unicorn_Princess | (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) |
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| 2024-09-09 09:25:18 +0200 | EarlPitts | (~EarlPitts@20014C4C1C6E6700A4006D5FAF3CEF25.catv.pool.telekom.hu) |
| 2024-09-09 09:26:04 +0200 | talismanick | (~user@2601:644:937c:ed10:536b:7670:fffc:851a) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 09:28:05 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 09:34:47 +0200 | kuribas | (~user@ptr-17d51epau2xs89jopnb.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-09-09 09:36:34 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 2024-09-09 09:41:05 +0200 | srazkvt | (~sarah@user/srazkvt) |
| 2024-09-09 09:41:27 +0200 | <kuribas> | I want to participate in munichac with my hasqlator library. |
| 2024-09-09 09:41:48 +0200 | <kuribas> | Would you say that Applicative/Monoid/Functor are Beginner level, or intermediate level? |
| 2024-09-09 09:42:45 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 09:43:34 +0200 | <kuribas> | What about phantom variables with lifted DataKinds? I have a single type family. |
| 2024-09-09 09:44:54 +0200 | <kuribas> | The lower level of my library just uses Applicative/Monoid, I'd say that's pretty standard haskell? |
| 2024-09-09 09:47:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 09:50:58 +0200 | sourcetarius | (~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius) |
| 2024-09-09 09:52:47 +0200 | lortabac | (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) |
| 2024-09-09 09:53:04 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 09:53:57 +0200 | <Unicorn_Princess> | kuribas, i'd say applicative/monoid/functor are intermediate level for non-haskellers, and beginner-level for haskellers |
| 2024-09-09 09:54:40 +0200 | <Unicorn_Princess> | but then i'm sure there's a mind-bending way of using them that'd make them intermediate/advanced |
| 2024-09-09 09:55:22 +0200 | <Unicorn_Princess> | in any case the surest way to find out would be to check how older submissions were categorized |
| 2024-09-09 09:55:43 +0200 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Depends on how you spin it. |
| 2024-09-09 09:55:57 +0200 | hgolden_ | (~hgolden@146.70.173.37) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 09:56:01 +0200 | <dminuoso> | If you forego the generalization and focus on just `fmap/<*>/<+>` at a specific instance, it's beginner level. |
| 2024-09-09 09:56:04 +0200 | cfricke | (~cfricke@user/cfricke) |
| 2024-09-09 09:56:18 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 09:56:22 +0200 | hgolden | (~hgolden@169.150.203.10) |
| 2024-09-09 09:56:51 +0200 | <dminuoso> | You can even assist that by providing bindings at those specific types. |
| 2024-09-09 09:57:06 +0200 | misterfish | (~misterfis@87.215.131.102) |
| 2024-09-09 09:57:29 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Like if we had `thenIO :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b`, and `pureIO :: a -> IO a`, I think much of the monad scare would just... not exist. |
| 2024-09-09 09:57:58 +0200 | <dminuoso> | (In fact, this is even why we have `map`) |
| 2024-09-09 10:00:15 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 10:01:14 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 10:01:39 +0200 | <kuribas> | Unicorn_Princess: I would think people who attend a haskell conference already no so minimum haskell. |
| 2024-09-09 10:01:48 +0200 | <kuribas> | Including Monads and Applicatives. |
| 2024-09-09 10:02:13 +0200 | rickbx | (~rick@38.42.185.148) |
| 2024-09-09 10:02:36 +0200 | rickbx | (~rick@38.42.185.148) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-09-09 10:02:41 +0200 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: right, people working on this would not have to make their own instances, so you could say it's beginner friendly... |
| 2024-09-09 10:02:59 +0200 | rickbx | (~rick@38.42.185.148) |
| 2024-09-09 10:04:29 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Well this is not necessarily about "making their own instances", but rather using the polymorphic interface can be intimidating for beginners. |
| 2024-09-09 10:04:37 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@user/arahael) |
| 2024-09-09 10:04:48 +0200 | <kuribas> | right |
| 2024-09-09 10:05:04 +0200 | arahael_ | (~arahael@user/arahael) |
| 2024-09-09 10:05:27 +0200 | <dminuoso> | The confusion arises because the generalization of these interfaces is only relevant if a) you are writing that interface to begin with, or b) you want to provide some polymorphic library function yourself that uses the former primitive. |
| 2024-09-09 10:06:05 +0200 | <dminuoso> | But if a user uses `>>=` they see a bizarre looking operator, and an intimiating class name, both of which are mostly irrelevant to the task at hand. |
| 2024-09-09 10:06:05 +0200 | <kuribas> | Not sure I get your second point... |
| 2024-09-09 10:06:32 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Well say Im exposing `double :: Functor f -> f Int -> f Int` rather than `double :: [Int] -> [Int]` |
| 2024-09-09 10:06:35 +0200 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 2024-09-09 10:06:35 +0200 | mreh | (~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) |
| 2024-09-09 10:06:41 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Or even more confusing |
| 2024-09-09 10:06:52 +0200 | <dminuoso> | double :: (Num a, Functor f) => f a -> f a |
| 2024-09-09 10:07:00 +0200 | <kuribas> | Yeah, the applicative operator is hard to grasp, but if composing it is easy, just put <$> first, then <*> |
| 2024-09-09 10:07:13 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Im saying using it at a particular instance is simnple. |
| 2024-09-09 10:07:17 +0200 | srazkvt | (~sarah@user/srazkvt) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 10:07:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 10:07:58 +0200 | <dminuoso> | With some implicit understanding of f `(<*> @IO)` 1 `(<$> IO)` 2 |
| 2024-09-09 10:08:01 +0200 | <dminuoso> | if it were. |
| 2024-09-09 10:08:29 +0200 | <kuribas> | There is not a lot of polymorphism at the lower level: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasqlator-mysql-0.1.0/docs/Database-MySQL-Hasqlator.html |
| 2024-09-09 10:08:32 +0200 | <dminuoso> | That way you're no longer talking about Applicative, but some particular functions that can attribute clear and explainable behavior to. |
| 2024-09-09 10:09:01 +0200 | <kuribas> | right, abstraction is difficult. |
| 2024-09-09 10:09:13 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) |
| 2024-09-09 10:09:14 +0200 | <kuribas> | Before you actually understand the things it's abstracting over. |
| 2024-09-09 10:10:41 +0200 | EarlPitts | (~EarlPitts@20014C4C1C6E6700A4006D5FAF3CEF25.catv.pool.telekom.hu) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-09-09 10:12:01 +0200 | rickbx | (~rick@38.42.185.148) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 10:13:17 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 10:15:22 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-09 10:16:31 +0200 | EarlPitts | (~EarlPitts@20014C4C1C6E6700A4006D5FAF3CEF25.catv.pool.telekom.hu) |
| 2024-09-09 10:18:43 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 10:19:45 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 10:20:37 +0200 | oo_miguel | (~Thunderbi@78.10.207.45) |
| 2024-09-09 10:21:27 +0200 | Guest12 | (~Guest12@210.115.223.46) |
| 2024-09-09 10:22:35 +0200 | <kuribas> | I am on a waitlist :( I already bought a busticket and hotel... |
| 2024-09-09 10:24:41 +0200 | qqe | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-09-09 10:26:35 +0200 | srazkvt | (~sarah@user/srazkvt) |
| 2024-09-09 10:29:04 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-09 10:35:04 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:2b2:3500:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) |
| 2024-09-09 10:35:15 +0200 | chele | (~chele@user/chele) |
| 2024-09-09 10:37:27 +0200 | EvanR_ | (~EvanR@user/evanr) |
| 2024-09-09 10:37:47 +0200 | EvanR | (~EvanR@user/evanr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-09-09 10:39:42 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-09-09 10:39:49 +0200 | Axman6 | (~Axman6@user/axman6) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |