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| 2024-07-08 03:15:25 +0200 | AlexNoo_ | (~AlexNoo@5.139.232.6) |
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| 2024-07-08 03:37:16 +0200 | <lain`> | i wish there was decent documentation for anything |
| 2024-07-08 03:41:01 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 03:42:30 +0200 | hueso | (~root@user/hueso) |
| 2024-07-08 03:51:54 +0200 | barthandelous01 | (barth@triton.blinkenshell.org) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 03:52:12 +0200 | barthandelous01 | (barth@triton.blinkenshell.org) |
| 2024-07-08 04:03:48 +0200 | barthandelous01 | (barth@triton.blinkenshell.org) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 04:04:12 +0200 | tomku | (~tomku@syn-141-126-184-057.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2024-07-08 04:05:24 +0200 | barthandelous01 | (barth@triton.blinkenshell.org) |
| 2024-07-08 04:16:07 +0200 | <probie> | lain`: What counts as decent documentation? |
| 2024-07-08 04:19:19 +0200 | <lain`> | describing how something works in detail, documentation for each function saying what it's for if it's not obvious, examples of how to use the library in a realish situation, and a guide to learning the concepts of a library for the perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about it |
| 2024-07-08 04:19:25 +0200 | <lain`> | probie: ^ |
| 2024-07-08 04:19:39 +0200 | <lain`> | s/for/from |
| 2024-07-08 04:20:32 +0200 | <lain`> | this is good documentation, imo https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/orleans/grains/observers |
| 2024-07-08 04:23:18 +0200 | dysthesis | (~dysthesis@user/dysthesis) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 04:24:25 +0200 | <lain`> | or this https://hexdocs.pm/ecto/getting-started.html |
| 2024-07-08 04:30:36 +0200 | <joeyadams> | I'm going to go out on a limb and say Aeson's documentation is excellent from this standpoint: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson/docs/Data-Aeson.html |
| 2024-07-08 04:33:57 +0200 | <lain`> | yeah, there are some exceptions |
| 2024-07-08 04:34:05 +0200 | <joeyadams> | For sure. What bad example did you run across? |
| 2024-07-08 04:34:34 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870903.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
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| 2024-07-08 04:35:01 +0200 | puke | Guest1123 |
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| 2024-07-08 04:35:42 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2024-07-08 04:36:27 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870918.versanet.de) |
| 2024-07-08 04:36:31 +0200 | pyooque | (~puke@user/puke) |
| 2024-07-08 04:36:32 +0200 | puke | Guest2023 |
| 2024-07-08 04:36:32 +0200 | pyooque | puke |
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| 2024-07-08 04:43:59 +0200 | terrorjack | (~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:c17:87f8::) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2024-07-08 04:45:38 +0200 | dyniec | (~dyniec@dybiec.info) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2) |
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| 2024-07-08 04:52:19 +0200 | <lain`> | it wasn't just one, but the lens and mtl documentation aren't ideal imo |
| 2024-07-08 04:54:25 +0200 | <lain`> | it can be hard to find examples of even fairly simple/common things that aren't like 8 years old and don't compile anymore |
| 2024-07-08 04:54:31 +0200 | <lain`> | in general |
| 2024-07-08 05:04:47 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-003-015-111.176.3.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 05:05:05 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.22.252.56) |
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| 2024-07-08 05:11:51 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6ce5:1500:7cdb:cdf7:8d8:ba53) |
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| 2024-07-08 05:16:51 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) |
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| 2024-07-08 05:19:07 +0200 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@117.147.70.227) |
| 2024-07-08 05:27:35 +0200 | <EvanR> | documentation is overrated, I want it all trashed and a single snippet that shows the library doing 1 useful but highly specific task |
| 2024-07-08 05:27:55 +0200 | <EvanR> | as god intended |
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| 2024-07-08 06:13:26 +0200 | smalltalkman | (uid545680@id-545680.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
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| 2024-07-08 07:08:16 +0200 | <Axman6> | lain`: many libraries rely heavily on types, and lens is a good example of that; many of the types tell you a lot about what they could possibly do, without needing to explain much in words - but learning how to know what the types mean is something that takes time and use of the library. The basics of lens are trivial, but it is a library with a very broad range of applications, and in many cases a lot of depth too. |
| 2024-07-08 07:12:41 +0200 | <lain`> | i mean, people won't nessecarily intuit the depth, even if it's intended to be used that way by the authors. |
| 2024-07-08 07:13:28 +0200 | <lain`> | even if what a function literally does is understandable, why it's there and what place it has in the design isn't always obvious. i think that's the kind of thing that examples and tutorials can help with. |
| 2024-07-08 07:18:27 +0200 | <lain`> | the lens readme doesn't even say what a lens *is*. |
| 2024-07-08 07:24:09 +0200 | krei-se | (~krei-se@p5085d24b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 07:25:02 +0200 | krei-se | (~krei-se@p5085d24b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-07-08 07:28:26 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-07-08 07:28:43 +0200 | <Axman6> | What is a lens? |
| 2024-07-08 07:28:46 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) |
| 2024-07-08 07:29:17 +0200 | <Axman6> | it's not a thing that a README is going to be able to clearly explain, it's an idea that has taken up many hour long talks explaining |
| 2024-07-08 07:29:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lain`: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.3.2/docs/Control-Lens-Lens.html#v:lens |
| 2024-07-08 07:29:48 +0200 | <Axman6> | Some things are just complex ideas, and expecting a half page explanation that's useful for using something isn't always going to be possible |
| 2024-07-08 07:30:23 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 07:30:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Axman6: don't agree |
| 2024-07-08 07:30:56 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> The documentation of lens just isn't very good for beginners |
| 2024-07-08 07:31:00 +0200 | <lain`> | i mean, you can look at the racket lens docs https://docs.racket-lang.org/lens/lens-intro.html#%28tech._lens%29 |
| 2024-07-08 07:31:33 +0200 | <Axman6> | Sure, I'm not saying things can't be improved, but that's actually quite a lot of motivation needed to explain why they even should exist in the first place |
| 2024-07-08 07:31:45 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> And it wasn't written for beginners anyway. The API doesn't consider "beginner issues". It's just not the use case |
| 2024-07-08 07:31:58 +0200 | <Axman6> | Yep |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:07 +0200 | <lain`> | i mean |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:14 +0200 | <lain`> | what does "beginner" even mean |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:17 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But you can write a beginner friendly lens library |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:22 +0200 | <lain`> | beginner to haskell? |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:28 +0200 | <jackdk> | https://diataxis.fr/ has an interesting breakdown on the front page, differentiating "tutorials", "how-to guides", "explanations" and "reference material" |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:58 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb54f9d6478c2267a5ca.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-07-08 07:33:51 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lain`: Someone who isn't into the academic foundations of lenses. |
| 2024-07-08 07:36:28 +0200 | <lain`> | i mean, i feel like that's kind of just an excuse to provide poor documentation |
| 2024-07-08 07:38:08 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2024-07-08 07:38:29 +0200 | <lain`> | it's not like doing so would make it harder for people who know a lot about lenses to use the library |
| 2024-07-08 07:40:10 +0200 | <lain`> | if someone doesn't *want* to provide documentation aimed at people who don't follow the research of the subject, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that they could. and that many other things do. |
| 2024-07-08 07:40:54 +0200 | <lain`> | and i think even for people who understand it, good documentation will make it easier to learn the library |
| 2024-07-08 07:41:22 +0200 | <lain`> | even if someone can figure out how something works from looking at the types, that doesn't mean it won't take extra time compared to it being explained well alongside examples |
| 2024-07-08 07:50:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> The maintainer of lens gives away commit rights willingly. So you probably can contribute such documentation easily |
| 2024-07-08 07:51:06 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But I doubt that will happen without an engaged contributor who cares about this specifically |
| 2024-07-08 08:02:23 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> optics is a lens alternative with good docs, I've heard |
| 2024-07-08 08:03:20 +0200 | <jackdk> | The main difficulty I have with optics is that I really like being able to provide lenses without incurring the `lens` dependency |
| 2024-07-08 08:03:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> more generally I think some haskell libs with good docs do exist, |
| 2024-07-08 08:06:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and making that attribute more visible (eg on hackage and flora and in reviews/ecosystem overviews) will help encourage that |
| 2024-07-08 08:11:04 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * package reviews and ecosystem |
| 2024-07-08 08:11:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oops, irc, sorry |
| 2024-07-08 08:12:31 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> though with the latest bridge I seem to remember the policy was that matrix edits are fine |
| 2024-07-08 08:12:57 +0200 | <jackdk> | They show up as additional messages but at least it's clear that it's an edit. |
| 2024-07-08 08:15:01 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> jackdk: optics support van laarhoven too. So you can still do that as a library author |
| 2024-07-08 08:15:33 +0200 | <jackdk> | so it means that VL optics are usable by both? good to know |
| 2024-07-08 08:16:31 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-07-08 08:22:37 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-vl-0.2.1/docs/Optics-VL.html |
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| 2024-07-08 10:05:48 +0200 | AlexNoo__ | (~AlexNoo@5.139.232.6) |
| 2024-07-08 10:06:17 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb54f9d6478c2267a5ca.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
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| 2024-07-08 10:07:16 +0200 | mikess_ | (~mikess@user/mikess) |
| 2024-07-08 10:07:25 +0200 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) |
| 2024-07-08 10:07:34 +0200 | op_4_ | (~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1) |
| 2024-07-08 10:07:49 +0200 | terrorjack7 | (~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:c17:87f8::) |
| 2024-07-08 10:07:50 +0200 | AlexNoo__ | AlexNoo |
| 2024-07-08 10:07:56 +0200 | sp1ff` | (~user@c-73-11-70-111.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 2024-07-08 10:08:02 +0200 | teesquare | (~teesquare@user/teesquare) |
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| 2024-07-08 10:08:37 +0200 | tcard__ | (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:01 +0200 | _[_________]_ | (~oos95GWG@user/oos95GWG) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:04 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6ce5:1500:7cdb:cdf7:8d8:ba53) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:04 +0200 | mikess | (~mikess@user/mikess) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:04 +0200 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf008f0dcbf843fa6f22da0d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:04 +0200 | sp1ff | (~user@c-73-11-70-111.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:04 +0200 | teesquare_ | (~teesquare@user/teesquare) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:05 +0200 | swistak | (~swistak@185.21.216.141) (Quit: bye bye) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:05 +0200 | terrorjack | (~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:c17:87f8::) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:05 +0200 | xstill_ | (xstill@fimu/xstill) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:05 +0200 | tcard_ | (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:05 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@i59F516FB.versanet.de) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:06 +0200 | ubert1 | ubert |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:07 +0200 | op_4 | (~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:07 +0200 | [_________] | (~oos95GWG@user/oos95GWG) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:08 +0200 | terrorjack7 | terrorjack |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:08 +0200 | op_4_ | op_4 |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:17 +0200 | xstill_ | (xstill@fimu/xstill) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:19 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:19 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb54f9d6478c2267a5ca.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:19 +0200 | AlexNoo_ | (~AlexNoo@5.139.232.6) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:09:20 +0200 | sprout | (~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-45f5-cd70-d2c3-af5d.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 10:10:07 +0200 | sprout | (~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-b42c-a95b-6a4b-b4d1.fixed6.kpn.net) |
| 2024-07-08 10:16:06 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) |
| 2024-07-08 10:20:54 +0200 | chele | (~chele@user/chele) |
| 2024-07-08 10:24:43 +0200 | danse-nr3 | (~danse-nr3@151.37.217.77) |
| 2024-07-08 10:31:28 +0200 | _[_________]_ | (~oos95GWG@user/oos95GWG) (Quit: _[_________]_) |
| 2024-07-08 10:31:37 +0200 | [_________] | (~oos95GWG@user/oos95GWG) |
| 2024-07-08 10:33:04 +0200 | mreh | (~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) |
| 2024-07-08 10:38:07 +0200 | cfricke | (~cfricke@user/cfricke) |
| 2024-07-08 10:40:26 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 2024-07-08 11:04:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | lain`, lens is an abstract thing, which means "what it is" might take one sentence and be incomprehensible, or take a whole blog post and not be entirely right. See "what's a monad" |
| 2024-07-08 11:06:43 +0200 | reki | (~reki@5.142.41.78) |
| 2024-07-08 11:08:44 +0200 | reki | (~reki@5.142.41.78) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-07-08 11:08:59 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | simple lenses can be considered as dry "getters/setters/modifiers" |
| 2024-07-08 11:11:43 +0200 | <mreh> | any Reflexers in the chat that use obelisk? |
| 2024-07-08 11:14:40 +0200 | cpressey | (~weechat@176.254.71.203) |
| 2024-07-08 11:14:54 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-07-08 11:15:40 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) |
| 2024-07-08 11:16:35 +0200 | mreh | (~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-07-08 11:17:19 +0200 | mreh | (~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) |
| 2024-07-08 11:17:38 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | "reflexers"... that's not a query yielding many results |
| 2024-07-08 11:18:55 +0200 | <mreh> | danse-nr3: It's a *sharp intake of breath* web framework. https://reflex-frp.org/ |
| 2024-07-08 11:19:03 +0200 | cpressey | (~weechat@176.254.71.203) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-07-08 11:19:36 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | i know what it is but thanks |
| 2024-07-08 11:20:08 +0200 | <danse-nr3> | i just meant it's unlikely many of us specialise in that, you'd better target obelisk users probably |
| 2024-07-08 11:20:35 +0200 | <mreh> | #reflex-frp isn't a thing on here, I might have to go over to the dark side |
| 2024-07-08 11:20:53 +0200 | cpressey | (~weechat@176.254.71.203) |
| 2024-07-08 11:22:27 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb54f9d6478c2267a5ca.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |