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2024-06-30 00:00:12 +0200 <geekosaur> I'll agree with that
2024-06-30 00:00:34 +0200 <geekosaur> for that matter, I have no formal CS training and barely any programming training (I once took a fortran course)
2024-06-30 00:01:27 +0200 <zzz> that being said, i recognise the importance of knowing
2024-06-30 00:02:21 +0200 <geekosaur> but in this case, I'll also argue that many of the rules you have to know about aren't just from the Report; they're from how early GHC devs chose to implement them and the resulting technical debt
2024-06-30 00:02:30 +0200 <geekosaur> cf. Integer behavior
2024-06-30 00:02:52 +0200 <geekosaur> and you can't get that even from the GHC manual
2024-06-30 00:04:12 +0200 <geekosaur> much of it you have to get by reading the source to the ghc-bignum package
2024-06-30 00:05:21 +0200 <geekosaur> which you won't even know about unless you get curious about ghc-pkg --global output, or pay very close attention to ghc release notes
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2024-06-30 04:59:01 +0200 <nhar> hello world!
2024-06-30 04:59:36 +0200 <nhar> is this the right place to ask questions?
2024-06-30 05:03:40 +0200aaronv(~aaronv@user/aaronv)
2024-06-30 05:04:49 +0200 <mauke> well, one of them
2024-06-30 05:05:00 +0200 <mauke> (hopefully they're haskell related)
2024-06-30 05:05:45 +0200 <nhar> oh good! My setup works! (first time IRC user...wasn't sure my Nix setup worked).
2024-06-30 05:05:53 +0200 <nhar> I do have a Haskell question though:
2024-06-30 05:06:25 +0200 <nhar> I am trying to write a function with the following type: traverseJoin :: (Monad t, Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f (t b)) -> t a -> m (t b)
2024-06-30 05:07:30 +0200 <mauke> that looks wrong, even without the typo
2024-06-30 05:08:02 +0200 <nhar> How so? I'm not trying to write an instance for `traverse` if that's what you mean
2024-06-30 05:08:21 +0200 <mauke> where does that m come from?
2024-06-30 05:08:40 +0200 <nhar> that's a typo, it should be f
2024-06-30 05:08:54 +0200 <mauke> ah
2024-06-30 05:09:14 +0200 <nhar> essientially I'm looking for something that optimizes: join <$> traverse f x
2024-06-30 05:11:53 +0200 <joeyadams> :t \f x -> join <$> traverse f x
2024-06-30 05:11:54 +0200 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Traversable m, Applicative f) => (a1 -> f (m a2)) -> m a1 -> f (m a2)
2024-06-30 05:14:29 +0200 <joeyadams> :t concatMap
2024-06-30 05:14:30 +0200 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> [b]) -> t a -> [b]
2024-06-30 05:19:22 +0200 <joeyadams> So are you asking if there's a generalized concatMap that isn't specialized to returning a list?
2024-06-30 05:20:54 +0200 <nhar> kind of. I am looking for something that is like traverse but instead of the function returning pure values wrapped in the Applicative it returns new sub-trees of the data structure your traverse that would be stitched in "on the way up"
2024-06-30 05:21:21 +0200 <nhar> traverse (f :: a -> m (t b)) x :: m (t (t b))
2024-06-30 05:21:49 +0200 <nhar> and so join <$> traverse f x :: m (t b)
2024-06-30 05:22:03 +0200madhavanmiui(~madhavanm@2409:40f4:1030:9d51:8000::)
2024-06-30 05:22:13 +0200 <nhar> the `join <$>` part has to crawl through t again just to perform the join
2024-06-30 05:27:44 +0200robertm(robertm@lattice.rojoma.com) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
2024-06-30 05:30:19 +0200robertm(robertm@lattice.rojoma.com)
2024-06-30 05:34:02 +0200 <joeyadams> To make this easier to think about, I'll specialize f to [] and t to Tree, giving: traverseJoin :: (a -> [Tree b]) -> Tree a -> [Tree b]
2024-06-30 05:34:47 +0200 <nhar> good idea
2024-06-30 05:35:37 +0200madhavanmiui(~madhavanm@2409:40f4:1030:9d51:8000::) (Quit: Quit)
2024-06-30 05:35:45 +0200 <Leary> nhar: Perhaps you can use `Monoid (t b)` rather than `Monad t`?
2024-06-30 05:35:51 +0200 <Leary> :t \f -> getAp . foldMap (Ap . f)
2024-06-30 05:35:52 +0200 <lambdabot> forall k (t :: * -> *) (f :: k -> *) (a1 :: k) a2. (Foldable t, Monoid (Ap f a1)) => (a2 -> f a1) -> t a2 -> f a1
2024-06-30 05:39:31 +0200 <nhar> that kind of works..however: instance (Applicative f, Monoid a1) => Monoid (Ap f a1)
2024-06-30 05:39:54 +0200 <nhar> that would require a Monoid instance for `b` in my signature for traverseJoin
2024-06-30 05:41:25 +0200 <Leary> Not if `Monoid (t b)` is satisfied regardless of `b`.
2024-06-30 05:42:39 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
2024-06-30 05:43:14 +0200 <Leary> The other option is Alternative.
2024-06-30 05:43:17 +0200 <Leary> :t \f -> getAp . fmap getAlt . foldMap (Ap . fmap Alt . f)
2024-06-30 05:43:18 +0200 <lambdabot> forall k (f1 :: * -> *) (t :: * -> *) (f2 :: k -> *) (a1 :: k) a2. (Foldable t, Applicative f1, Monoid (Alt f2 a1)) => (a2 -> f1 (f2 a1)) -> t a2 -> f1 (f2 a1)
2024-06-30 05:43:50 +0200 <nhar> Leary: true. but to be more transparent my `t` type is an AST and I don't see a reasonable way to make a Monoid or Alternative instance for that
2024-06-30 05:44:18 +0200 <nhar> data Exp a = Var a | Lam VarName (Exp a) | App (Exp a) (Exp a)
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2024-06-30 05:46:27 +0200 <nhar> I'm pretty sure at minimum I'll need Traversable t becuase Traversable is what re-constructs the original AST I'm folding over
2024-06-30 05:49:43 +0200 <Leary> If you really want to optimise `join <$> traverse f x` for that, you're probably best off just writing it by hand.
2024-06-30 05:51:15 +0200 <nhar> yeah...I think you're right. And if I need to make a new typeclass. Thanks for the help!
2024-06-30 05:57:23 +0200 <nhar> wait...I think I figured out a better approach: \x h -> lift x >>= h :: (MonadTrans f, Monad t) => (a -> f (t a)) -> t a -> f (t b)
2024-06-30 06:05:19 +0200 <mauke> (MonadTrans f, Monad t) => t a -> (a -> f t b) -> f t b
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2024-06-30 06:25:04 +0200 <Leary> nhar: You can write `newtype TraverseT t f a = TraverseT{ runTraverseT :: f (t a) }; instance (Traversable t, Monad t, Monad f) => Monad (TraverseT t f)` and use `\f x -> runTraverseT (TraverseT (pure x) >>= TraverseT . f)`, but that bind will end up doing exactly what you're trying to avoid.
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2024-06-30 06:33:59 +0200 <nhar> Leary: Thanks! I think technically the MonadTrans direction is really what I'm looking for...you wouldn't happen to have used polysemy by any chance?
2024-06-30 06:34:03 +0200jcarpenter2(~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b940:c8a1:76:d03d:bf70) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-06-30 06:36:36 +0200 <Leary> nhar: Nope, and I don't recommend any of the early effect systems, especially if efficiency is a priority. Consider effectful or bluefin instead.
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2024-06-30 06:40:48 +0200 <nhar> Leary: Thanks! I'll look into those! Not sure how to keep up with what's outdated etc...
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2024-06-30 10:06:54 +0200reuben(~reuben@user/greuben) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2024-06-30 10:11:50 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com)
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2024-06-30 11:02:28 +0200TactfulCitrus(~al@2a02:8012:87a6:0:fbe0:6116:6e30:e047)
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2024-06-30 12:40:54 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3215-598d-d54a-56ea-534f-abcf.rev.sfr.net)
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2024-06-30 12:50:37 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@77.22.252.56)
2024-06-30 13:00:25 +0200soverysour(~soverysou@user/soverysour) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-06-30 13:02:36 +0200mrmr15533434(~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Quit: Bye, See ya later!)
2024-06-30 13:11:23 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@046044172198.static.ipv4.heldenvannu.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-06-30 13:16:11 +0200 <xerox> anybody knows of a swift introduction to template haskell? I'd like to reify a very small subset of haskell (lambdas, applications, and a handful of functions) into a data tree that I want to operate on, I think TH is how I could go about it pretty directly?
2024-06-30 13:22:09 +0200mrmr155334346(~mrmr@user/mrmr)
2024-06-30 13:26:20 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> ghc user guide maybe ?
2024-06-30 13:28:16 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@87.215.131.102)
2024-06-30 13:31:02 +0200 <xerox> yeah just stumbled upon that one, excellent
2024-06-30 13:32:01 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2024-06-30 16:19:47 +0200Teacup_(~teacup@user/teacup) ()
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2024-06-30 16:36:29 +0200greuben(~reuben@user/greuben) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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