| 2024-06-26 00:02:34 +0200 | <safinaskar> | okay, it didn't work |
| 2024-06-26 00:02:35 +0200 | <safinaskar> | https://godbolt.org/z/obdE6jnMM |
| 2024-06-26 00:02:46 +0200 | <safinaskar> | i tried to actually prove something and i failed |
| 2024-06-26 00:03:03 +0200 | <safinaskar> | because haskell seems not to have higher order unification |
| 2024-06-26 00:03:05 +0200 | <safinaskar> | or it has? |
| 2024-06-26 00:03:12 +0200 | <safinaskar> | is there some way to make this code work? |
| 2024-06-26 00:04:21 +0200 | ystael | (~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-26 00:05:06 +0200 | szkl | (uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) |
| 2024-06-26 00:07:48 +0200 | <EvanR> | on 29 you tried to refer to the same variables introduced in the type signature |
| 2024-06-26 00:07:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | that doesn't work without ScopedTypeVariables |
| 2024-06-26 00:08:50 +0200 | Guest89 | (~Guest89@bras-base-mtrlpq4706w-grc-02-174-89-234-134.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 2024-06-26 00:09:10 +0200 | <ncf> | that's included in ghc2021 |
| 2024-06-26 00:09:34 +0200 | Guest89 | (~Guest89@bras-base-mtrlpq4706w-grc-02-174-89-234-134.dsl.bell.ca) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-26 00:09:35 +0200 | <ncf> | the problem is that there are no type-level abstractions, so you can express p = λ b. Equal (c a) (c b) |
| 2024-06-26 00:10:46 +0200 | <safinaskar> | ncf: thanks |
| 2024-06-26 00:10:54 +0200 | <safinaskar> | ncf: this is exactly i'm trying to express |
| 2024-06-26 00:10:54 +0200 | <ncf> | can't** |
| 2024-06-26 00:12:10 +0200 | <ncf> | you'd need a newtype probably |
| 2024-06-26 00:13:16 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-26 00:15:57 +0200 | <safinaskar> | ha! it works! https://godbolt.org/z/Pxxjvq3oe |
| 2024-06-26 00:16:05 +0200 | <safinaskar> | i fixed my code and now it works! |
| 2024-06-26 00:16:13 +0200 | <safinaskar> | i was able to express that lambda! |
| 2024-06-26 00:20:40 +0200 | <ncf> | note https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.20.0.1/docs/Data-Type-Equality.html |
| 2024-06-26 00:21:51 +0200 | <safinaskar> | ncf: thanks |
| 2024-06-26 00:21:56 +0200 | <safinaskar> | ncf: you are very helpful |
| 2024-06-26 00:22:06 +0200 | <safinaskar> | ncf: but i did my way, because that is whole point |
| 2024-06-26 00:24:05 +0200 | sp1ff | (~user@c-73-11-70-111.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 2024-06-26 00:25:44 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2024-06-26 00:29:46 +0200 | Foxxer | (~Foxxer@152.250.71.122) |
| 2024-06-26 00:29:47 +0200 | Foxxer | (~Foxxer@152.250.71.122) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-26 00:29:56 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.193) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.0 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-06-26 00:30:13 +0200 | Foxxer | (~Foxxer@152.250.71.122) |
| 2024-06-26 00:31:40 +0200 | Foxxer | (~Foxxer@152.250.71.122) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-26 00:33:33 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-06-26 00:42:11 +0200 | <safinaskar> | now i'm trying to prove (x + y = y + x) (or something similar) using all this machinery |
| 2024-06-26 00:43:30 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-26 00:44:02 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 2024-06-26 00:44:29 +0200 | cheater | (~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-26 00:44:31 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc90fd0a56c96235233a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-26 00:44:36 +0200 | cheater | (~Username@user/cheater) |
| 2024-06-26 00:46:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | easy |
| 2024-06-26 00:46:07 +0200 | joeyadams | (~joeyadams@2607:fb91:1617:1400:929b:26f0:654:cc5a) |
| 2024-06-26 00:46:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | just make an axiom for that |
| 2024-06-26 00:46:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | call it ring theory |
| 2024-06-26 00:49:55 +0200 | causal | (~eric@50.35.88.207) (Quit: WeeChat 4.3.1) |
| 2024-06-26 00:51:57 +0200 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) |
| 2024-06-26 01:00:20 +0200 | ft | (~ft@p4fc2ab80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-06-26 01:00:39 +0200 | <safinaskar> | ha! i proved (0 + x = x) using (x + 0 = x) and induction! https://godbolt.org/z/YMYrWW6Ee |
| 2024-06-26 01:00:46 +0200 | <safinaskar> | in haskell |
| 2024-06-26 01:00:57 +0200 | <safinaskar> | this means that induction actually works! |
| 2024-06-26 01:01:13 +0200 | <safinaskar> | so yes, i was able to cope with all problems! |
| 2024-06-26 01:01:52 +0200 | <safinaskar> | so, yes, it is possible to fake type-level lambdas! |
| 2024-06-26 01:03:21 +0200 | <EvanR> | for your next trick, use haskell to prove FALSE |
| 2024-06-26 01:04:09 +0200 | <safinaskar> | EvanR: unfortunately, this is easy, too. "false :: forall a. a" "false = undefined" |
| 2024-06-26 01:04:13 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 2024-06-26 01:04:25 +0200 | <EvanR> | and see that it is much more powerful than stuff like coq which cripples itself into only proving true stuff |
| 2024-06-26 01:09:54 +0200 | <safinaskar> | how i will try to prove the same thing using C++ and Rust :) |
| 2024-06-26 01:10:22 +0200 | <safinaskar> | i'm not sure about Rust, but in C++ this seems to be totally possible |
| 2024-06-26 01:11:36 +0200 | <safinaskar> | for example, "f :: forall (a :: Type -> Type). Int" can be written in C++ so: "template <template <typename> typename T> int f()" |
| 2024-06-26 01:34:18 +0200 | <joeyadams> | Records compile into somewhat large binaries, is this a known issue? For example, I have a module with 16 records (205 fields), and it produces a 490K .o file (versus 99K if I remove the records). If I derive generic Aeson instances, it becomes 2.3M, and takes several seconds to compile. |
| 2024-06-26 01:35:44 +0200 | <joeyadams> | This means if I generate bindings for a database with 100 tables, I end up with an absurdly large binary. Not the end of the world, just slightly disappointing. |
| 2024-06-26 01:43:27 +0200 | <safinaskar> | joeyadams: use rust. it compiles fast (compared to haskell) |
| 2024-06-26 01:43:47 +0200 | <safinaskar> | joeyadams: aeson in rust world is called serde_json |
| 2024-06-26 01:44:14 +0200 | <safinaskar> | joeyadams: instances for serde_json are generated automatically, too |
| 2024-06-26 01:45:03 +0200 | <joeyadams> | Just curious, does serde_json use a generic system sort of like Haskell has, or is it more like C# where it's all run-time reflection? |
| 2024-06-26 01:45:06 +0200 | <safinaskar> | joeyadams: binary sizes likely to be big, too. but compilation speed will be nice |
| 2024-06-26 01:45:46 +0200 | <joeyadams> | So I just need to write a quick sed replace to turn my Haskell code into Rust, and I'll be set :-) |
| 2024-06-26 01:45:55 +0200 | <safinaskar> | joeyadams: serde_json works in compile-time |
| 2024-06-26 01:46:49 +0200 | <safinaskar> | joeyadams: first package called "serde" derives all needed instances in compile time using so-called proc macros (it is code, which executes in compile time and generates AST, similar to template haskell) |
| 2024-06-26 01:46:56 +0200 | <safinaskar> | and then serde_json uses these instances |
| 2024-06-26 01:48:19 +0200 | <joeyadams> | An important detail I left out: I had deriving Show on all my records. I took that off and that took off 300K. |
| 2024-06-26 01:51:23 +0200 | <joeyadams> | But I am curious why derived instances might take up so much code. Deriving FromJSON/ToJSON for 15 records produces as much binary code as the whole Aeson library. |
| 2024-06-26 01:51:39 +0200 | <EvanR> | Hi can you not respond to a haskell question by saying use rust |
| 2024-06-26 01:51:40 +0200 | <joeyadams> | I should try writing the instances manually to see how big the code footprint is. |
| 2024-06-26 01:52:06 +0200 | <safinaskar> | EvanR: okay :( |
| 2024-06-26 01:53:00 +0200 | <EvanR> | joeyadams, did you try flags to reduce the binary size, did you try to strip the binary |
| 2024-06-26 01:53:14 +0200 | <EvanR> | are you compiling in profiling support |
| 2024-06-26 01:54:20 +0200 | <joeyadams> | I'm just using GHC 9.4.8 installed through ghcup, not sure what that compiled in. I also tried with later GHC versions and saw similar results (slow compiles and large binaries). |
| 2024-06-26 01:55:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | template haskell and generics does have a compile time cost, but you were asking about binary size |
| 2024-06-26 01:55:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | you can issue flags to optimize for speed or size... -Os ? |
| 2024-06-26 01:56:06 +0200 | <joeyadams> | I looked into some flags a while back, it didn't help much. My results are with -O1. If I use ghc -O0 it makes the binary even bigger. |
| 2024-06-26 01:56:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | what about -O2 |
| 2024-06-26 01:56:51 +0200 | <EvanR> | also you can try to strip the binary after the fact |
| 2024-06-26 01:57:41 +0200 | <joeyadams> | Same size with -O2. Does GHC have something like -Os ? |
| 2024-06-26 01:57:50 +0200 | <EvanR> | -Os |
| 2024-06-26 01:58:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | guess not... |
| 2024-06-26 01:58:52 +0200 | <joeyadams> | strip takes the program from 24M to 14M, and the .o file from 2.3M to 1.2M. Better, but still a lot. |
| 2024-06-26 01:59:55 +0200 | <joeyadams> | (the "program" is just a single .hs file where I copied some of my records over and pruned them. It references aeson, uuid-types, scientific, text, and bytestring. |
| 2024-06-26 02:00:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | there might be some more you could try https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6115459/small-haskell-program-compiled-with-ghc-into-huge-bina… |
| 2024-06-26 02:04:54 +0200 | <joeyadams> | Thanks. Maybe I should just create a single record and derive FromJSON, and look at the assembly. I'm mainly curious why it takes so much code to do (what should be) so little. |
| 2024-06-26 02:08:11 +0200 | joeyadams | (~joeyadams@2607:fb91:1617:1400:929b:26f0:654:cc5a) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-26 02:08:21 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-26 02:18:55 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-06-26 02:19:29 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-205-223.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-26 02:22:05 +0200 | <jackdk> | @tell joeyadams https://well-typed.com/blog/2021/08/large-records/ might be relevant here |
| 2024-06-26 02:22:05 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 2024-06-26 02:22:18 +0200 | <Axman6> | yeah that came to mind for me too |
| 2024-06-26 02:22:38 +0200 | <Axman6> | also ping EvanR since you were looking into it too |
| 2024-06-26 02:27:09 +0200 | philopsos1 | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) |
| 2024-06-26 02:33:31 +0200 | <safinaskar> | @tell joeyadams also try self-unpacking binaries :) |
| 2024-06-26 02:33:32 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 2024-06-26 02:35:10 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2024-06-26 02:35:17 +0200 | joeyadams | (~joeyadams@2603:6010:5100:2ed:c9:f4bd:32a:187d) |
| 2024-06-26 02:35:36 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) |
| 2024-06-26 02:37:14 +0200 | <joeyadams> | Thanks, jackdk, looking at it now. |
| 2024-06-26 02:42:36 +0200 | <safinaskar> | bye |
| 2024-06-26 02:42:39 +0200 | safinaskar | (~quassel@212.73.77.104) () |
| 2024-06-26 02:44:27 +0200 | szkl | (uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-06-26 02:48:39 +0200 | safinaskar | (~quassel@212.73.77.104) |
| 2024-06-26 02:48:50 +0200 | safinaskar | (~quassel@212.73.77.104) () |
| 2024-06-26 02:51:18 +0200 | sudden | (~cat@user/sudden) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-26 02:52:31 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-06-26 02:55:39 +0200 | edrx | (~Eduardo@170-233-51-85.static.sumicity.net.br) |
| 2024-06-26 02:57:01 +0200 | <edrx> | hi all! gmorning! |
| 2024-06-26 02:57:44 +0200 | <edrx> | I wrote a program to help me typeset type inferences using underbrace diagrams - it generates figures like this: https://i.ibb.co/8mZ2VVp/sshot.png |
