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| 2026-05-31 02:29:35 +0000 | <jreicher> | lisbeths: there are (at least) two different domains of lambda calculus evaluation performance. One is the calculus itself, i.e. some evaluation orders are shorter than others. In the K-calculus, some evaluations don't terminate at all. The term "lazy" evaluation is sometimes used (incorrectly, in my opinion) to refer to evaluation order. You should make sure you're doing normal order evaluation. That's kind of the bare minimum for a |
| 2026-05-31 02:29:35 +0000 | <jreicher> | machine. Next is the implementation itself... |
| 2026-05-31 02:30:01 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 02:30:13 +0000 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2026-05-31 02:30:21 +0000 | <jreicher> | For that there are (at least) three kinds of optimisation. One is tail call optimisation. Another is fast currying. And then another is lazy evaluation, which is the memoisation of results. |
| 2026-05-31 02:31:05 +0000 | <jreicher> | And that's not even covering how you might represent the result of a beta reduction. The expensive way to do it is to generate a new lambda expression, but if performance is not a consideration there's actually nothing wrong with that. The use of environments, etc. is really just an optimisation. |
| 2026-05-31 02:32:16 +0000 | <jreicher> | Memoisation of results depends a bit on whether you are reducing under abstractions. I've never seen an implementation of that, but it's sometimes called "full laziness". Would be cool if someone did it. |
| 2026-05-31 02:33:24 +0000 | <jreicher> | But for a really efficient implementation you need to figure out fast currying. In some ways it's the most difficult of the three. |
| 2026-05-31 02:34:37 +0000 | <lisbeths> | you can write lazy algorithms in lc by suspending the application of something and storing all the arguments in a list. it doesnt have to be built into the interpreter |
| 2026-05-31 02:35:08 +0000 | <lisbeths> | im more talking about how to get fast arrays in lc |
| 2026-05-31 02:36:26 +0000 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) (Quit: XD!!) |
| 2026-05-31 02:37:10 +0000 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) fijxu |
| 2026-05-31 02:37:51 +0000 | <jreicher> | lisbeths: you don't store the arguments in a list. The lambda calculus expression IS the lsit. |
| 2026-05-31 02:41:04 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 02:45:55 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 02:56:41 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 02:59:04 +0000 | spew | (~spew@user/spew) (Quit: nyaa~) |
| 2026-05-31 02:59:22 +0000 | spew | (~spew@user/spew) spew |
| 2026-05-31 03:01:52 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 03:03:42 +0000 | <jreicher> | lisbeths: thought about what you want to do a little more and I've had an idea. Have you tried using arrays efficiently in Haskell, without re-implementing lambda calculus evaluation? |
| 2026-05-31 03:12:25 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 03:33:44 +0000 | Inline | (~noOne@ipservice-092-208-182-236.092.208.pools.vodafone-ip.de) Inline |
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| 2026-05-31 05:56:37 +0000 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2026-05-31 05:58:44 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 06:16:54 +0000 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) lisbeths |
| 2026-05-31 06:24:45 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 06:48:20 +0000 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
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| 2026-05-31 06:53:42 +0000 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2026-05-31 06:55:55 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 06:57:52 +0000 | tcard | (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) |
| 2026-05-31 07:01:02 +0000 | tt1231607019780 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:a4f6:acff:fe95:3803) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2026-05-31 07:02:42 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:02:59 +0000 | myxos | (~myxos@67-1-178-42.tcso.qwest.net) myxokephale |
| 2026-05-31 07:03:11 +0000 | tt1231607019780 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:a4f6:acff:fe95:3803) tt1231 |
| 2026-05-31 07:03:45 +0000 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2026-05-31 07:04:11 +0000 | zzshork | (~zzshork@67.189.145.231) (Changing host) |
| 2026-05-31 07:04:11 +0000 | zzshork | (~zzshork@user/zzshork) zzshork |
| 2026-05-31 07:05:00 +0000 | zzshork | (~zzshork@user/zzshork) () |
| 2026-05-31 07:10:23 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 07:18:34 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:43a1:dfae:d3d:489e) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:19:00 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e607:1510:9460:dc5c) |
| 2026-05-31 07:26:07 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 07:29:19 +0000 | m | (~travltux@user/travltux) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2) |
| 2026-05-31 07:31:04 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:31:19 +0000 | m | (~travltux@user/travltux) travltux |
| 2026-05-31 07:31:42 +0000 | emilym | (~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym |
| 2026-05-31 07:32:07 +0000 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich |
| 2026-05-31 07:40:40 +0000 | emilym | (~Thunderbi@user/emilym) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:41:55 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 07:44:44 +0000 | castan | (~castan@188.26.39.158) |
| 2026-05-31 07:44:45 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e607:1510:9460:dc5c) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:45:08 +0000 | <castan> | what's the point of the Foldable instance of pairs |
| 2026-05-31 07:45:13 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:1e8e:69be:97e9:df50) |
| 2026-05-31 07:45:38 +0000 | <castan> | and why isn't there an instance for ((,,) a b) |
| 2026-05-31 07:46:58 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 266 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:47:21 +0000 | <Rembane> | castan: It's quite good if you know about it. One concrete example is that you want to sort on the first element and then do things on the second element and throw away the first element. |
| 2026-05-31 07:53:39 +0000 | <castan> | I guess it makes sense if passing pairs to a function expecting any foldable |
| 2026-05-31 07:54:32 +0000 | <castan> | otherwise the instance itself is trivial |
| 2026-05-31 07:56:45 +0000 | <Rembane> | Yeah, the more boring answer is: what would it otherwise look like? |
| 2026-05-31 07:57:40 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 07:59:10 +0000 | <castan> | fair, but then I would have expected Foldable instances for higher arity tuples as well |
| 2026-05-31 07:59:48 +0000 | <Rembane> | Which element would you write Foldable instances for in higher arity tuples? |
| 2026-05-31 08:00:00 +0000 | <mauke> | there is only one option |
| 2026-05-31 08:00:05 +0000 | <castan> | that would be the last |
| 2026-05-31 08:02:43 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:03:02 +0000 | <Rembane> | mauke: Highlander tuple? |
| 2026-05-31 08:03:08 +0000 | <castan> | I mean Functor has instances for tuples up to 7 elements |
| 2026-05-31 08:03:55 +0000 | <mauke> | :t foldMap |
| 2026-05-31 08:03:57 +0000 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m |
| 2026-05-31 08:04:08 +0000 | <mauke> | foldMap f (_, _, x) = f x |
| 2026-05-31 08:10:01 +0000 | <Leary> | castan: You have to stop somewhere, and it's pretty arbitrary wherever you do. We generally pretend "big" tuples don't exist, but the standard for "big" varies from person to person, so cut-off arity isn't consistent from class to class. |
| 2026-05-31 08:11:22 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 08:11:54 +0000 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e554a1582e2fc899958d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2026-05-31 08:11:56 +0000 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e554a1582e2fc899958d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2026-05-31 08:15:34 +0000 | <castan> | Leary: that's understandable, but it's a bit comical too |
| 2026-05-31 08:15:49 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:16:15 +0000 | <castan> | Eq cuts off at 15, Functor at 7, Applicative at 4, Foldable at 2 |
| 2026-05-31 08:16:38 +0000 | <castan> | at least on ghc 9.6.7 |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:35 +0000 | <mauke> | > (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) == (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:36 +0000 | <lambdabot> | No instance for ‘Eq |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:37 +0000 | <lambdabot> | (Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, In... |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:37 +0000 | <lambdabot> | Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, In... |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:49 +0000 | <mauke> | > (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) == (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:51 +0000 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:57 +0000 | <mauke> | > (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) > (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:59 +0000 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 2026-05-31 08:22:55 +0000 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:26:45 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:13 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | > 1 ++ 1 |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:15 +0000 | <lambdabot> | No instance for ‘Num [()]’ arising from a use of ‘e_111’ |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:15 +0000 | <lambdabot> | In the expression: e_111 |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:15 +0000 | <lambdabot> | In the first argument of ‘show_M58322371133546511351’, namely |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:48 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | > length (1, 2) |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:49 +0000 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:00 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | yes, this is my favorite behavior of Haskell |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:10 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | > length (1, 2, 3) |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:12 +0000 | <lambdabot> | No instance for ‘Foldable ((,,) Integer Integer)’ |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:12 +0000 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘length’ |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:12 +0000 | <lambdabot> | In the expression: length (1, 2, 3) |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:24 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | perfect |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:59 +0000 | <mauke> | @let a === b = cast a == Just b |
| 2026-05-31 08:30:01 +0000 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 2026-05-31 08:33:51 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:44:36 +0000 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2026-05-31 08:44:41 +0000 | divlamir | (~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-05-31 08:44:49 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 08:45:00 +0000 | divlamir | (~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir |
| 2026-05-31 08:48:26 +0000 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e50749931930275f1dba.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2026-05-31 08:49:30 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:51:57 +0000 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e554a1582e2fc899958d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:51:57 +0000 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e554a1582e2fc899958d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:52:59 +0000 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e50749931930275f1dba.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2026-05-31 08:58:41 +0000 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-05-31 08:59:44 +0000 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
| 2026-05-31 09:00:39 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 09:05:42 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 253 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:12:23 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 09:17:32 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:21:21 +0000 | castan | (~castan@188.26.39.158) (Quit: castan) |
| 2026-05-31 09:28:14 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 09:29:02 +0000 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:3037:6e6:d82f:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) CiaoSen |
| 2026-05-31 09:33:30 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:38:28 +0000 | tremon | (~tremon@83-80-159-219.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) tremon |
| 2026-05-31 09:39:00 +0000 | AlexNoo_ | (~AlexNoo@178.34.160.200) |
| 2026-05-31 09:40:52 +0000 | AlexZenon | (~alzenon@85.174.182.98) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:40:52 +0000 | Alex_delenda_est | (~al_test@85.174.182.98) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:42:37 +0000 | AlexNoo | (~AlexNoo@85.174.182.98) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:43:57 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 09:44:37 +0000 | AlexZenon | (~alzenon@178.34.160.200) |
| 2026-05-31 09:47:40 +0000 | AlexZenon_2 | (~alzenon@178.34.160.200) |
| 2026-05-31 09:48:30 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:49:00 +0000 | AlexZenon | (~alzenon@178.34.160.200) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:49:38 +0000 | AlexZenon | (~alzenon@178.34.160.200) |
| 2026-05-31 09:51:48 +0000 | AlexZenon_2 | (~alzenon@178.34.160.200) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:55:55 +0000 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2026-05-31 09:59:25 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 10:04:31 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 10:13:23 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 10:20:09 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | oh "length (1, 2, 3)" is the perfect retort to people complaining about "length (1, 2) == 2" |
| 2026-05-31 10:20:15 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 10:21:50 +0000 | <int-e> | > length (1,2) -- ??? |
| 2026-05-31 10:21:51 +0000 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 2026-05-31 10:23:33 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | uh, yes, that's what I meant |
| 2026-05-31 10:24:02 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | I guess I "meant" that that '==' denoted what the complainant wants, rather than what Haskell does |
| 2026-05-31 10:31:27 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 10:33:45 +0000 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:3037:6e6:d82f:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 10:36:06 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 10:38:49 +0000 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 10:44:39 +0000 | synchromesh | (~john@2406:5a00:247e:1500:9a0:33e6:ebb2:ef41) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-05-31 10:45:41 +0000 | synchromesh | (~john@2406:5a00:247e:1500:9a0:33e6:ebb2:ef41) synchromesh |
| 2026-05-31 10:46:37 +0000 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2026-05-31 10:46:53 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 10:49:10 +0000 | dtman34 | (~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-05-31 10:50:02 +0000 | rabbull72 | (~rabbull@xdsl-31-164-93-219.adslplus.ch) |
| 2026-05-31 10:51:21 +0000 | rabbull7 | (~rabbull@xdsl-31-164-93-219.adslplus.ch) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-05-31 10:51:21 +0000 | rabbull72 | rabbull7 |
| 2026-05-31 10:52:00 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 274 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 10:52:04 +0000 | dtman34 | (~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) dtman34 |
| 2026-05-31 10:52:43 +0000 | <yin> | i wish haskell didn't have all this sugar around lists and tuples |
| 2026-05-31 10:53:10 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | go program Agda if you don't want the list sugar |
| 2026-05-31 10:56:06 +0000 | <int-e> | > let f x | x <- x + 1; x <- x * 2 = x in f 2 -- wonder what yin thinks about this |
| 2026-05-31 10:56:08 +0000 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:21: error: parse error on input `;' |
| 2026-05-31 10:56:33 +0000 | <int-e> | > let f x | x <- x + 1, x <- x * 2 = x in f 2 |
| 2026-05-31 10:56:34 +0000 | <lambdabot> | 6 |
| 2026-05-31 10:56:39 +0000 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2026-05-31 10:56:41 +0000 | <int-e> | oops. |
| 2026-05-31 10:58:42 +0000 | <yin> | int-e: pattern guards is actually something i abuse |
| 2026-05-31 10:59:59 +0000 | <yin> | to the point where i prefer to write `f b | True <- b = x; | False <- b = y` |
| 2026-05-31 11:01:57 +0000 | <yin> | but anyways even agda has way too much sugar. i'm happy with scheme |
| 2026-05-31 11:02:56 +0000 | <mangoiv> | pattern guards are actually not sugary at all. |
| 2026-05-31 11:03:21 +0000 | <mangoiv> | they're conceptually the "fundamental" part of pattern matching. |
| 2026-05-31 11:03:58 +0000 | <yin> | mangoiv: that's how i see them. altough if we're being correct, that would be case expressions |
| 2026-05-31 11:04:09 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 11:04:19 +0000 | <mangoiv> | not really |
| 2026-05-31 11:04:22 +0000 | <mangoiv> | I am correct |
| 2026-05-31 11:04:41 +0000 | <mangoiv> | the Pmc works based on pattern guards |
| 2026-05-31 11:05:07 +0000 | <mangoiv> | https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3408989 |
| 2026-05-31 11:05:13 +0000 | <mangoiv> | this is the original paper. |
| 2026-05-31 11:05:16 +0000 | <mangoiv> | it's a good read |
| 2026-05-31 11:05:47 +0000 | <mangoiv> | there's conceptually orthogonal approaches |
| 2026-05-31 11:05:59 +0000 | <mangoiv> | like https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.18920 |
| 2026-05-31 11:07:27 +0000 | <int-e> | so you're not correct, you're just not wrong :-P |
| 2026-05-31 11:08:09 +0000 | <mangoiv> | the conceptually orthogonal approaches are not what GHC is doing. |
| 2026-05-31 11:08:12 +0000 | <mangoiv> | GHC is doing pattern guards. |
| 2026-05-31 11:08:27 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:08:35 +0000 | <int-e> | but STG is doing cases |
| 2026-05-31 11:08:46 +0000 | <mangoiv> | we're not writing STG are we? |
| 2026-05-31 11:09:01 +0000 | <int-e> | GHC is using STG too |
| 2026-05-31 11:09:12 +0000 | <int-e> | so you have a merry mix of both worlds |
| 2026-05-31 11:09:19 +0000 | <int-e> | everyone should be happy |
| 2026-05-31 11:10:05 +0000 | <int-e> | There's also the Haskell report story, which is to desugar to cases |
| 2026-05-31 11:10:15 +0000 | <mangoiv> | we were talking about what is "sugar" |
| 2026-05-31 11:10:24 +0000 | <yin> | this was what i meant. core does cases and PatternGuards were added as a language extension |
| 2026-05-31 11:10:41 +0000 | <yin> | but i learned something |
| 2026-05-31 11:10:49 +0000 | <yin> | ty mangoiv |
| 2026-05-31 11:11:31 +0000 | <mangoiv> | int-e: if you consider the surface language a sugar over assembly then the discussion is kinda moot |
| 2026-05-31 11:12:24 +0000 | <mangoiv> | > this was what i meant. core does cases and PatternGuards were added as a language extension |
| 2026-05-31 11:12:24 +0000 | <mangoiv> | yup, it's a bit confusing imo because the chronological order is different, in the beginning there was only case, but now the "fundamental" construct, at least in the surface language, are pattern guards. |
| 2026-05-31 11:12:29 +0000 | <int-e> | mangoiv: I take issue with the idea that considering the guards to be sugar is *wrong*. It isn't; there's a choice. |
| 2026-05-31 11:12:48 +0000 | <lambdabot> | Variable not in scope: this :: t9 -> t10 -> Expr -> t11 -> b0 -> cVariable n... |
| 2026-05-31 11:12:48 +0000 | <lambdabot> | core |
| 2026-05-31 11:12:48 +0000 | <lambdabot> | :: t0 |
| 2026-05-31 11:12:58 +0000 | <int-e> | And GHC's reality appears to be a mix of the two choices. |
| 2026-05-31 11:13:38 +0000 | JoelMcCracken | (5ea8252fbb@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e3) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:13:38 +0000 | rselim | (ce261f06ff@user/milesrout) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:13:38 +0000 | bsima1 | (9d7e39c8ad@2a03:6000:1812:100::dd) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:13:38 +0000 | evanrelf | (3addc196af@2a03:6000:1812:100::f0) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:23 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:30 +0000 | b0o | (0e4a0bf4c9@2a03:6000:1812:100::1bf) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:30 +0000 | cephei8 | (b8652603d7@user/cephei8) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:56 +0000 | shreyasminocha | (51fdc93eda@user/shreyasminocha) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:56 +0000 | filwisher | (2e6936c793@2a03:6000:1812:100::170) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:56 +0000 | caz | (866183745f@2a03:6000:1812:100::15d4) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:56 +0000 | sus | (1b7af6299f@user/zeromomentum) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:56 +0000 | uint64_t | (ec7b9bb9f3@2a03:6000:1812:100::139b) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:56 +0000 | arcadewise | (52968ed80d@2a03:6000:1812:100::3df) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:14:56 +0000 | whereiseveryone | (206ba86c98@2a03:6000:1812:100::2e4) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:15:22 +0000 | samhh | (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:15:22 +0000 | ggb | (a62ffbaf4f@2a03:6000:1812:100::3ac) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:15:22 +0000 | fvr | (ef3e56ca8b@2a03:6000:1812:100::3c4) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:15:22 +0000 | bheesham | (3aa22d8375@2a03:6000:1812:100::e40) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:15:22 +0000 | jakzale | (6291399afa@user/jakzale) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:15:28 +0000 | ggb | (a62ffbaf4f@2a03:6000:1812:100::3ac) ggb |
| 2026-05-31 11:16:50 +0000 | bheesham | (3aa22d8375@2a03:6000:1812:100::e40) bheesham |
| 2026-05-31 11:18:00 +0000 | jakzale | (6291399afa@user/jakzale) jakzale |
| 2026-05-31 11:18:02 +0000 | fvr | (ef3e56ca8b@2a03:6000:1812:100::3c4) fvr |
| 2026-05-31 11:18:02 +0000 | samhh | (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) samhh |
| 2026-05-31 11:19:24 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 259 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:23:36 +0000 | <yin> | i'm happy that it validates my often frowned upon style of avoiding anything but pattern guards |
| 2026-05-31 11:25:32 +0000 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:25:43 +0000 | Icy-Thought | (~user@user/icy-thought) icy-thought |
| 2026-05-31 11:25:45 +0000 | Lord_of_Life_ | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2026-05-31 11:25:55 +0000 | Icy-Thought | (~user@user/icy-thought) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-05-31 11:28:24 +0000 | bsima1 | (9d7e39c8ad@2a03:6000:1812:100::dd) |
| 2026-05-31 11:28:25 +0000 | evanrelf | (3addc196af@2a03:6000:1812:100::f0) evanrelf |
| 2026-05-31 11:28:26 +0000 | rselim | (ce261f06ff@user/milesrout) milesrout |
| 2026-05-31 11:28:26 +0000 | JoelMcCracken | (5ea8252fbb@2a03:6000:1812:100::10e3) JoelMcCracken |
| 2026-05-31 11:28:37 +0000 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:15 +0000 | cephei8 | (b8652603d7@user/cephei8) cephei8 |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:16 +0000 | b0o | (0e4a0bf4c9@2a03:6000:1812:100::1bf) b0o |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:41 +0000 | caz | (866183745f@2a03:6000:1812:100::15d4) caz |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:42 +0000 | filwisher | (2e6936c793@2a03:6000:1812:100::170) |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:43 +0000 | whereiseveryone | (206ba86c98@2a03:6000:1812:100::2e4) jgart |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:43 +0000 | sus | (1b7af6299f@user/zeromomentum) zeromomentum |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:43 +0000 | arcadewise | (52968ed80d@2a03:6000:1812:100::3df) l3gacyb3ta |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:44 +0000 | shreyasminocha | (51fdc93eda@user/shreyasminocha) shreyasminocha |
| 2026-05-31 11:29:45 +0000 | uint64_t | (ec7b9bb9f3@2a03:6000:1812:100::139b) k_hachig |
| 2026-05-31 11:30:12 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 11:35:21 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:45:59 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 11:50:57 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:51:49 +0000 | haritz | (~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000:d5af:a266:ca31:5ef8) |
| 2026-05-31 11:51:49 +0000 | haritz | (~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000:d5af:a266:ca31:5ef8) (Changing host) |
| 2026-05-31 11:51:49 +0000 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz |
| 2026-05-31 11:52:20 +0000 | <mangoiv> | My personal opinion is that first match semantics while very common is quite error prone. |
| 2026-05-31 11:52:28 +0000 | <mangoiv> | and it's good style to not have e.g. `otherwise` branches. |
| 2026-05-31 11:53:08 +0000 | <mangoiv> | so I would actually prefer if we had something that was closer to the algebra of patterns approach |
| 2026-05-31 11:53:12 +0000 | <mangoiv> | but it's very different to what GHC does. |
| 2026-05-31 11:54:43 +0000 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 11:57:08 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | mangoiv: the source language being sugar over assembly is not a useful definition, but it being sugar over the _specified_ language (i.e. the Haskell report) instead of the implementation is quite defensible |
| 2026-05-31 12:00:16 +0000 | <yin> | call it spice |
| 2026-05-31 12:01:45 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 12:02:06 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | if, if it makes you dislike the specification, you can call it salt |
| 2026-05-31 12:02:10 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | *or, |
| 2026-05-31 12:02:23 +0000 | Pozyomka | (~pyon@user/pyon) pyon |
| 2026-05-31 12:08:18 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 12:11:15 +0000 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: of course if you call it salt you'll always find somebody who wants to add more to the wound |
| 2026-05-31 12:13:33 +0000 | rainbyte | (~rainbyte@181.47.219.31) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-05-31 12:14:53 +0000 | rainbyte | (~rainbyte@181.47.219.31) rainbyte |
| 2026-05-31 12:15:24 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 12:17:44 +0000 | <yin> | haskell salt: if..then..else |
| 2026-05-31 12:18:24 +0000 | hsw_ | (~hsw@106.104.102.114) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2026-05-31 12:18:42 +0000 | <int-e> | yin: now you're just trolling |
| 2026-05-31 12:18:46 +0000 | hsw | (~hsw@106.104.102.114) hsw |
| 2026-05-31 12:18:57 +0000 | <yin> | int-e: i am so not |
| 2026-05-31 12:19:28 +0000 | <yin> | i'll use `bool` before if..then..else |
| 2026-05-31 12:20:15 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 12:21:19 +0000 | <jreicher> | Same thing |
| 2026-05-31 12:21:35 +0000 | <mangoiv> | tomsmeding: yeah that's fair. I guess my definition was closer to "what part of the frontend as it is implemented in GHC is the sugar" and there the answer is "everything but pattern guards", but seeing the language report as the base is fair, too! |
| 2026-05-31 12:21:53 +0000 | <tomsmeding> | right :) |
| 2026-05-31 12:22:51 +0000 | <mangoiv> | yin: if | True <- sheriff -> robber |
| 2026-05-31 12:22:51 +0000 | <mangoiv> | | False <- sheriff -> hehe |
| 2026-05-31 12:23:03 +0000 | <yin> | also guards are salt over `True <- x` |
| 2026-05-31 12:23:07 +0000 | tjbc | (~tjbc@user/fliife) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 12:23:43 +0000 | tabaqui | (~tabaqui@167.71.80.236) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 12:23:52 +0000 | <mangoiv> | there's also a paper about somebody saying that really it should all be if then else. |
| 2026-05-31 12:23:58 +0000 | <mangoiv> | that's fairly recent |
| 2026-05-31 12:25:09 +0000 | <mangoiv> | can't find it right now though |
| 2026-05-31 12:25:31 +0000 | <mangoiv> | don't remember the clever name the author came up with to make their paper be absolutely unsearchable in the modern day internet |
| 2026-05-31 12:30:17 +0000 | <yin> | nand (a,b) = if x then if y then False else True else True |