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| 2025-11-22 19:18:17 +0100 | <monochrom> | "The Second World Wars: How the First Global Conflict Was Fought and Won" Victor Davis Hanson |
| 2025-11-22 19:17:59 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-11-22 19:17:39 +0100 | sadeq_ir | (~sadeq_ir@5.239.173.93) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-11-22 19:17:35 +0100 | <Franciman> | lol |
| 2025-11-22 19:17:24 +0100 | <mreh> | aren't vectors why people chose to write Rust in the first place? |
| 2025-11-22 19:17:19 +0100 | <monochrom> | haha let me search on Amazon... |
| 2025-11-22 19:16:54 +0100 | <glguy> | That'd be fun to get a history book with two authors having the first name Victor |
| 2025-11-22 19:16:48 +0100 | sadeq_ir | (~sadeq_ir@5.239.173.93) |
| 2025-11-22 19:16:29 +0100 | <Franciman> | who is Victor who write all this stories? :P |
| 2025-11-22 19:15:55 +0100 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 2025-11-22 19:15:46 +0100 | <EvanR> | history is written by the victors, except in the US south, but that's another story |
| 2025-11-22 19:15:43 +0100 | <glguy> | monochrom: I've heard of "survivorship bias" |
| 2025-11-22 19:15:40 +0100 | <monochrom> | Even more sinister if you think about it. |
| 2025-11-22 19:15:15 +0100 | <mreh> | It's quite lucrative to follow the herd |
| 2025-11-22 19:15:01 +0100 | <monochrom> | You have heard "history is written by the victors". But have you also considered: Success stories are written by victors. |
| 2025-11-22 19:14:18 +0100 | <monochrom> | Because Ritchie and Kay are opinion leaders. Everyone wants to follow opinion leaders. |
| 2025-11-22 19:13:51 +0100 | <monochrom> | I'm sure. Of course they bought Ritchie's and Kay's opinion. |
| 2025-11-22 19:13:16 +0100 | <mauke> | I know a lot of people who would take issue with "need at least static type checking" (and calling Lisp "unsafe") |
| 2025-11-22 19:13:08 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-11-22 19:12:46 +0100 | sindu | (~sindu@2.148.32.207.tmi.telenormobil.no) |
| 2025-11-22 19:11:55 +0100 | <monochrom> | Generally the problem with opinion leaders is that their opinions work great for themselves because they are so smart. Not so great for the rest of us. |
| 2025-11-22 19:11:13 +0100 | sindu | (~sindu@2.148.32.207.tmi.telenormobil.no) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-11-22 19:10:59 +0100 | <monochrom> | For example, Dennis Ritchie and Alan Kay are extremely smart people, so when they say unsafe unchecked languages like C and Lisp work great for them, sure. But when they say it will also work for the rest of us because "oh-so flexible, oh-so unleash your creativity" I say no, the rest of us need at least static type checking. |
| 2025-11-22 19:09:43 +0100 | <EvanR> | if it takes 40 years to get good at writing code, maybe that's bad. And the goal is to do something to bring kids up to speed in 10 years or 5 years. But rust doesn't seem to have that in the design |
| 2025-11-22 19:08:07 +0100 | <monochrom> | I agree about being against people, at least most people. |
| 2025-11-22 19:08:06 +0100 | <mreh> | this incident rather torpedos that argument |
| 2025-11-22 19:07:54 +0100 | <mreh> | yeah |
| 2025-11-22 19:07:40 +0100 | <EvanR> | but more and more it sounds like an argument against people |
| 2025-11-22 19:07:39 +0100 | <mreh> | lol |
| 2025-11-22 19:07:32 +0100 | <EvanR> | the argument to replace C with rust usually involves how bad people are at writing C code |
| 2025-11-22 19:07:17 +0100 | <mreh> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re96UgMk6GQ I think it was this talk where he coined that phrase |
| 2025-11-22 19:06:40 +0100 | <monochrom> | But I agree about being hesistant to replace mature systems. Even when it's a good idea, it needs to be well planned out with multiple backup plans. |
| 2025-11-22 19:06:27 +0100 | <EvanR> | but some get to the point of "not being allowed to die" because too much code was written in them |
| 2025-11-22 19:06:12 +0100 | <EvanR> | most die before having more than 1 user |
| 2025-11-22 19:06:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | I remember one where he shows a graph of programming language lifetimes |
| 2025-11-22 19:05:04 +0100 | <mreh> | I think he makes some good points about trying to make a language with mass appeal |
| 2025-11-22 19:04:23 +0100 | <monochrom> | Actually no. |
| 2025-11-22 19:04:14 +0100 | <mreh> | monochrom: seen the "Avoid success at all costs" video from SPJ? |
| 2025-11-22 19:03:54 +0100 | <EvanR> | including haskell |
| 2025-11-22 19:03:48 +0100 | <EvanR> | in fact in helps in any language that allows bogus code |
| 2025-11-22 19:03:13 +0100 | <monochrom> | As in, you appreciate that we don't push hard for Haskell? :) |
| 2025-11-22 19:03:02 +0100 | <EvanR> | the invisible proofs thing is a thing I learned in Idris that helps in C. But in rust they think they have nothing to learn from C, and I saw that I learned from everything |
| 2025-11-22 19:02:32 +0100 | <mreh> | Makes* |
| 2025-11-22 19:02:31 +0100 | <monochrom> | https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/pessimisms.html enjoy :) |
| 2025-11-22 19:02:28 +0100 | <mreh> | I think pushing hard for Rust to replace mature systems has rather backfired in recent weeks. Make me appreciate this community even more. |
| 2025-11-22 19:02:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2025-11-22 19:01:23 +0100 | <monochrom> | It's why I'm pessimistic and cynical about humanity altogether. :) |
| 2025-11-22 19:01:11 +0100 | <mreh> | anyway, I just came to see if people had perspective in a language I understood better |
| 2025-11-22 19:01:05 +0100 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2025-11-22 19:00:47 +0100 | <mreh> | you make good points, but most people aren't going to see it that way |